What are some reasons to learn Italian Instead of French?
>>8157985
You are moving to Italy
>>8157985
you're an autistic fuck
alternatively you like opera, though I'm not sure this merits an entire "learning" of the language
la comedia > the entirety of french literature put together
>>8158009
sigh
Reading Dante in the original is probably worth it.
>>8158019
>sigh
fucking kys
>>8158086
>focusing this hard on the medium of the message
It's closer to Spanish. If you already know Spanish it'll be easier. If you don't and you're American, learning Italian will make learning a relevant language like Spanish easier.
Italy is more interesting than France and you'll be able to communicate if you go.
>>8157985
I studied both and found Italian incredibly easy after a year or two of French. Other people have agreed with me that Italian is the easiest of the Romance languages to learn, though I don't know anyone who started with Italian.
Well, French literature outpaces Italian in every category except there is not a single French poet who is as great as Dante. Though I haven't visited either country since childhood, Italy seems more beautiful but France seems better for quotidian life and work. And hey, la France est encore très belle.
>>8157985
Italian women are better than French women.
>>8158019
? he's right
>>8158009
That's only because french literature is utter shit.
And it's written "La Commedia", faggot.
And it was basically the angsty fanfiction of a catholic weeaboo that hated lots of people because he never got any pussy and so wrote a fanfic where he put his enemies in hell. Today he'd post in /r9k/.
t. an italian.
>>8157987
only this.
>>8157985
it's a prettier language
>>8157985
France tends to have the best writer of a certain style, but italy has a pile of good ones.
Italy rules short stories (based Pirandello kun)
French food is much harder to figure out than italian (recipes in your target language are always a plus). Also italian food is based
Italians are much kinder to those learning their language.
Outside of the northest north italy didn't really have hippies, so the central area is something of a time capsule to the pre-hippie era in some ways.
Italy doesn't only have Dante, the entire renaissance is basically an italian thing. You can also check out based Boccaccio and Petrarch.
Enlightenment aesthetics were spread by France, but were an italian invention. Check out the book of courtier.
Each city in Italy has pride in itself, unlike France where everyone hates paris but acknowledges that Paris is where all the stuff is.
Sometimes I wish I studied Italian instead of French mais la couture français a aussi beaucoup des bonnes choses.
I've been trying to learn French. I'm at a point where I can read some things and usually pick up on the meaning. But I can't speak or communicate at all.
I was thinking of switching to Italian since it's supposedly easier
American who's lived in Italy for six years now. It's not a difficult language to learn if you immerse yourself as much as possible. It's phonetic which helps considerably.
I've found that it's a very useful language because of its nearness to Latin. I'm able to understand the gist of French, Spanish and Latin as a result.
>b2 equivalent
>>8158021
No it's not.
Dante was shit. La Divina Commedia is shit.
>>8158173
>French literature outpaces Italian in every category
Kill youserlf. Seriously.
>>8157985
Italian sounds better.
>>8157985
Italy still has ties to Stirner influenced anarchism. France is just commie shit.
>>8157985
Unless you want to read something French, Italian is easier and you will get further with it and maybe ease your way into French.
Although going from French to Italian makes Italian really easy.
It's really, really, difficult for non-native speakers to speak French without an accent. It sounds kinda shit so French people maybe be rude to you.
>>8158794
wow I hope someone learns a language for these kinds of reasons
>>8158240
>Outside of the northest north italy didn't really have hippies, so the central area is something of a time capsule to the pre-hippie era in some ways.
This is not to say the rest of your post isn't garbage, but the south is full of anarchist communes and card carrying communists. Like it's a Mccarthyist's nightmare. Very likely the "central area" is part of the south too.
And Northest North are like conservative Swiss p much.
>>8158246
No single modern foreign language is easier than any other. A change might be nice but ultimately that's all it is, something different.
>>8159389
Do you have a big 3rd wave feminist movement in Italy? Have safe spaces taken root? Was there a 70's college movement that irreparably scarred higher ed (us) or nearly brought down the government (France)?
These all seem weaker or like non-issues in Italy; and justifiably so, as you guys were dealing with shit like proper communist insurrection and aldo moro
I don't think Italian is distributed as much as French, but it is a much easier language to learn. I'm pretty sure it's completely phonemic, unlike French or English, so spelling and pronunciation should be straightforward.
Spanish is very similar to Italian, but has very widespread distribution by comparison. It would be a more useful language to know.
>>8159642
what do you mean by distribution?
>>8159389
brb moving to south italy
>>8158009
This
Also Ariosto and Leopardi
>>8158215
I'm finishing the inferno right now and kinda agree. It was groundbreaking in its time, I'm sure, but now the poetry isn't anything spectacular and beyond the poetry it's just a dainty Italian guy wandering around going "Oh dear, you lot are having a pretty bad time down here aren't you" and shitting on people he didn't like
Hopefully Purgatorio and Paradiso are better because nothing really moved me that much so far.
>>8159645
As in, not that many speakers distributed throughout the world. It's not going to be very useful as a second language if you never encounter anyone who speaks it. Are you planning to visit or relocate to Italy?
>>8159685
That's such an incredibly shallow reading.
As for the poetry, read Canto XXV and come back to me.
Dante Petrarca Boccaccio Ariosto Tasso Galileo Beccaria Manzoni Foscolo Leopardi Goldoni D'Annunzio Gadda Sanguineti e troppi altri
>>8157985
Wanting the French to think you're gay
>>8158794
b-b-but muh syndicalism
>>8159688
No, but my family is Italian. Momma never taught me
>>8158121
>Italy is more interesting than France
triggered desu
>>8157985
There isn't one, unless you plan on dealing with uneducated Italian villagers. Educated Italians understand and speak English well (albeit with an accent). The French almost exclusively speak French in France, and French is spoken all around the world.
>>8158009
Longtemps je me suis couché de bonne heure
>>8158215
Confirmed for never reading French literature.
ive only ever taken latin
of all the foreign languages italian sounds the 'clearest'. rarely am i unable to distinguish words from words, even though i don't know italian. in every other language at least some of the words slur together.
>>8160170
>and French is spoken all around the world.
... by uneducated African and North-African villagers. Makes all the difference!
>>8159645
he means a section of canada and some random african countries speak french
>>8160957
Switzerland is now a random African country. I expect Swiss posters will love that.
There's also a few places in S. America and Asia.
>>8160226
>in every other language at least some of the words slur together.
Weirdly that's a Latin thing. Often the terminal sound is moved onto the start of the adjacent word, and it mostly happens in French.
Tex comics.
Well you can't really read the Divine Comedy as if it were a "normal" book... Italian native speakers themselves need to kinda translate it and study it in school because it's quite difficult to understand. So be prepared.
Anyway, the French are asses
To BTFO Belgium with words, anon
>>8161030
I was told this by my italian teacher as well, but I only really noticed some g's in modern italian show up as c's in Dante, and there are more English (Latin) cognates than in usual italian.
Are there grammatical differences? What's hard about it?
>>8159320
>It sounds kinda shit so French people maybe be rude to you.
holy fuck this. France is the only place on Earth where natives will mock you instead of being supportive. This guy took a lot of time to learn my language it is great idea to be impolite for him!
>>8158246
>I've been trying to learn French. I'm at a point where I can read some things and usually pick up on the meaning. But I can't speak or communicate at all.
>>8159735
>Beccaria
>D'Annunzio
>Sanguineti
per favore no
>>8159554
Are you retarded?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Valle_Giulia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Autumn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_Lead_(Italy)
>>8160229
You mean, cheaper exotic pussies. All the benefits.
>>8161129
I speak french and I can sort of understand where it comes from though. Dumbing the language down to speak with a stranger is something I can't imagine. Every culture is different, keep crying faggot
>>8158175
nah, french women are much better, but french men have nothing on Italian men
>>8158253
being this french
>>8157985
The films are better, but don't tell anyone that, you may trigger the Godardfriends
>>8157990
Italians are the polar opposite of autismos. If you want an autistic people look no further than the Germans.
>>8161969
>Germans
>Invented modern philosophy as we know
>Italians
>...Dante? And all other strains of Christcuck LARPing
Hm, tough choice...
>>8161961
Shut the fuck up. I'm so tired of being disrespected on this goddamn website. All I wanted to do was post my opinion. MY OPINION. But no, you little bastards think it's "hilarious" to mock those with good opinions. My opinion. while not absolute, is definitely worth the respect to formulate an ACTUAL FUCKING RESPONSE AND NOT JUST A SHORT MEME OF A REPLY. I've been on this site for 6 months: 6 MONTHS and I have never felt this wronged. It boils me up that I could spend so much time thinking and putting effort into things while you shits sit around (probably jerking off to traps or whatever gay shit you like) and make fun of the intellectuals of this world. I've bored you? Good for fucking you. Literally no one cares that your little brain is to underdeveloped and rotted to comprehend my idea...MY GREAT GREAT IDEA. I could sit here all day whining, but I won't. I'm NOT a whiner. I'm a realist and an intellectual. I know when to call it quits and to leave the babybrains to themselves. I'm done with this goddamn site and you goddamn immature children. I have lived my life up until this point having to deal with memesters and idiots like you. I know how you work. I know that you all think you're "epik trolls" but you're not. You think you baited me? NAH. I've never taken any bait. This is my 100% real opinion divorced from anger. I'm calm, I'm serene. I LAUGH when people imply I'm intellectually low enough to take bait. I always choose to reply just to spite you. I won. I've always won. Losing is not in my skillset. So you're probably gonna reply "lol epik trolled" or "u mad bro" but once you've done that you've shown me I've won. I've tricked the trickster and conquered memery. I live everyday growing stronger to fight you plebs and low level trolls who are probably 11 (baby, you gotta be 18 to use 4chan). But whatever, I digress. It's just fucking annoying that I'm never taken serious on this site, goddamn.
I just finished five years of Latin, which language would be easier to learn? Keep in mind when someone's speaking to me I often can't understand them if they're talking too fast or slurring
>>8161987
Don't know Latin, but Italian is definitely easier, it's more regimented, more phonetic (and just easier to pronounce), and less ambiguous. Italian is probably tied with Spanish for easiest language to learn, not counting Esperanto or something.
French is more similar to English vocab wise, but Italian is more similar to Latin (I assume). Actually speaking to native Italians is probably harder than speaking to French though because Italians do indeed speak fast and there's a large diversity in terms of regional accents. The French, as noted in this thread, are rather rude to people trying to learn the language though.
>think French is gonna be impossible when I start learning it
>mfw it's 30% English
Thank you based Gauls who invaded Britain a thousand years ago
Can someone recommend me some simple German books?
>>8161142
>underestimating d'annunzio
Go back to liceo
>>8161987
Every piece of research I've ever seen that I thought looked semi decent concluded that Latin will actually make shit harder or the same. If you want to learn another language easier you're better off learning another modern foreign language.
The problems seem to arise when people apply what they did to learn Latin to learning a modern language so I suggest don't do that.
>>8162086
invece d'annunzio è proprio da liceali.
Preziosismi e suoni completamente vuoti - tutte cose che comunque erano state già fatte da Baudelaire, simbolisti e Apollinaire. Le uniche opere oneste di D'Annunzio sono le prime (e le più acerbe) e il Poema Paradisiaco. Che poi non è pure un capolavoro della letteratura
>>8162053
If you're an ameridumb, you're still going to suck at it. Americans can't into language.
>>8162220
Ameridumbs are better on average than Britards tho.
>>8158215
TU GRADIST' IT?
>>8162208
Ti fermi a parlare di preziosismi e scavalchi l'immensa densità di contenuto. E anche se si ritenesse flebile il nerbo del contenuto, le poesie di D'Annunzio (mi sembra che tu ti stia riferendo in particolare al poeta e non al narratore) offrono trame sonore e liriche che pochi poeti hanno eguagliato.
D'Annunzio è da liceali se lo si legge solo nella maniera in cui si insegna a leggerlo al liceo.
>>8159554
we have no feminist movement atm but we had in the 60's
>>8160170
>Educated Italians understand and speak English well
Not true in the slightest, Italians have some of the worst English skills in Western Europe, partly because they already all have to learn a stupid dialect as well as standard Italian and partly because it's a very insular country.
>>8162696
>Italians have some of the worst English skills in Western Europe
I never really noticed that much of a difference between Italy and anywhere else for English skills. In fact the first person I met in S. Germany (outside of friends) who could speak English was a homeless Italian in Munich.
>>8162696
Spain speak the least English in Europe, and why not since it's one of the most-spoken languages in the world.
>>8161131
I did my best but anyone who would take out the time to translate this would help a lot - I found what I could comprehend to be interesting. I studied Italian and I was barely able to understand the French.
>>8158240
culture*, connard.
>>8157985
ITALO.FUCKING.CALVINO. END OF THREAD
What would be best for learning other languages, italian or french?
>>8162974
Svevo too
>>8157985
The french are pompous assholes and not a single french author is worth reading. At least Italy has Machiavelli.
Do NOT learn french for any reason other than literature.
>Most French speak only one language. I was at a station (a place where many tourists go) and asked (in my broken French) one of the tellers whether she spoke English, German, Spanish or Italian. She asked me (in French) why I didn't learn French before coming to France. I told her (in French) that I was traveling through Portugal, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Hungary, Poland: was I supposed to learn all of those languages? She mumbled something (still in French), didn't seem to be grateful that I was making my best effort to speak her language, and didn't make the slightest effort to make it easier for me to understand her French. Alas, this is not the exception, but often the rule. Even in border areas like Strasbourg or Nice you will not find many people who speak a second language. While better than USA citizens, the French are still a long way from accepting that there exist other languages and that French (unlike English, Russian, Spanish or Arabic) is spoken pretty much only in France, therefore it is not the language a traveler would learn first.
>>8162974
That's a solid fucking argument there, anon. If he's half as pretty in Italian as (translated) English it will have been worth it
>>8157985
Italian has the merit of sounding beautiful and musical as French does without being as gay
>>8162053
The Gauls bit the dust over 1000 years before Hastings.
>>8163571
You fucking moron, French is spoken in many places other than France.
>Canada
>Switzerland
>Belgium
French is an official language in 29 countries
>>8157985
>Italian literature is awesome
>still a gateway language to French and Spanish
>>8158021
>Reading Dante in the original is probably worth it.
Native Italian reporting in.
Dante is amazing.
But it took me ages to get it beyond my head.
At school they made us paraphrase it and shit.
It was boring as hell.
And there were all those different levels of reading.
And you didn't get the jokes because no 14 y.o. gets those 13th Century inside jokes.
Also, I didn't like poetry.
Then, one day, after long years spent in the humanities, I was bored and opened a very fancy edition of Dante's Inferno.
Holy fuck I realized I understood every line.
And the sounds...and the intertwining of witty remarks and narration.
The storytelling here, the Easter eggs there, plus a summary of all the knowledge of the time. You find astronomy there... you find politics. You find sex, you find spirituality.
Suddenly it was all alive. Bone and flesh.
But holy shit it took me some years of gap and distance from Dante... but when I got back to it, it unfolded under my eyes in all of its marvel.
>>8161142
>>Beccaria
Ha influenzato Dostoevskij però
>>8164407
Che problemi ha quel tizio con Beccaria?
Che poi sanno tutti -- dei Delitti e delle Pene fu praticamente organizzato da Pietro Verri.
>Giulia Beccaria
Una gran figa.
>>8164414
Dosto è stato mica risparmiato sul patibolo dallo zar, no?
L'Idiota lo nomina come massima autorità quando parla alle Epancin delle sue idee sulla pena di morte
>>8164431
qui su /lit/ credo ci sia la tendenza a considerare poco le "non-fiction", potrebbe essere questo
Learn Senegalese french dialect. It's the best.
porcodio
>>8164840
Finalmente una traccia di letteratura italiana contemporanea
>they don't speak both
Dai, les gars.
>>8165268
tope la amico mio
What's the best way to learn a new language? I'd like to learn Spanish but there are no classes around here, are those sites like duolingo good?
>>8157985
It can make you sound romantic and tough at the same time
>>8158253
fucking this
>La Divina Commedia
>expecting comedy
>the book has no jokes or comedy
>>8166036
Read grammar. Learn vocab listening to music with a dictionary in hand. Immerse yourself in an atmosphere that promotes using that language.
Pourquoi écrivez-vous ?
J’écris pour exister.
Si je remonte à l’origine du verbe, ce qui est mon mouvement naturel à l’égard de tout mot, parce que je suis dans la langue un poisson migrateur aux remontées de rivières saisonnières, alors c’est écrire pour sortir de soi, se lever, se dresser hors de soi. Phénomène paradoxal dont la contradiction interne, disons une parmi d’autres et celle que j’accroche, adosse à la question pourquoi la question comment. Je trouve qu’on ne la pose pas assez, la question comment, et elle m’importe.
J’écris pour exister.
Je cherche souvent les images justes pour me dire ce qu’est écrire, ce que c’est quand j’écris, ce qui se produit pour que j’écrive et quand j’écris. Je tombe souvent sur un imaginaire de la profondeur, la plongée, la puisée, le forage, la dimension verticale, l’ancrage peut-être, l’exploration qui serait marine plus que terrestre, polaire, carottes glaciaires les images, la phrase sonde, spirale, tarière, qui, si elle s’étire sur la page suivant son plan et ses lignes fatales, est un instrument de percée dont les enroulements sont autant de progressions vers toujours plus au fond. Pourtant, pour autant, le résultat de tout ce creusement, j’écris pour exister, me lever (être debout), me dresser hors de moi.
Il y a une scène que j’ai déjà écrite plusieurs fois, pas un texte seulement, une vraie scène : je suis debout et je regarde un couple, un homme et une femme, faire l’amour, ou baiser, cela dépend des versions. Sauf que la femme, c’est aussi moi. Je suis là et là, celle qui fait et celle qui voit, dedans et dehors, deux figures de l’ex-stase (car les poissons se trompent parfois de courant). Ce dédoublement qui est un retour, une réflexion, est emblématique de l’écriture : être à la fois dans la plus profonde, pénétrante intimité et dans l’extériorité qui permet la vérification de son être, la contemplation, mais aussi comme la réassurance, l’effroi. Un don très particulier d’ubiquité.
J’écris pour être écrivain.
Si on détache délicatement la question pourquoi de la question comment, il reste le sens social d’exister, s’inscrire dans un espace, prendre place parmi des semblables, trouver sa place. Très longtemps j’ai craint cette inscription, sans doute à cause de la rugosité de se frotter aux autres, mais aussi de la menace de la dilution. J’aimais beaucoup être un enfant. L’enfance, cette condition ubiquitaire par excellence, quand je serai grand je serai pompier je serai maîtresse je serai inventeur je serai soigneur animalier, et même l’enfance, cette condition utopiaire. Mais je suis aussi assez couarde et il est rassurant d’être situé. J’écris pour être écrivain, parce qu’écrivain est la seule inscription, le seul point dans le monde qui m’ait paru, à moi qui n’en voulait pas, acceptable. C’est alors que la question comment se recolle délicatement à la question pourquoi. Un écrivain comment ? Quel écrivain être ? Mais ce sont d’autres questions.
.
>>8167597
Quel(s) conseil(s) donneriez-vous à un aspirant écrivain ?
J’aime beaucoup l’attelage de ces deux noms, aspirant écrivain. Oui, aspirer. S’ouvrir, être poreux, se laisser toucher, se laisser gagner, laisser entrer, être facile d’accès, se laisser envahir. Lire, engranger, absorber, incorporer. Rencontrer, côtoyer, fréquenter, aller au-devant, parler, converser, échanger, fêter, flirter, se fondre, frayer, nul cynisme, on peut choisir les mots pour le dire, le réseau, ou des gens profonds et précieux, toutes nos petites failles assemblées, qui nous rassemblent. Vivre, engranger, absorber, incorporer, voyager, aimer, élever des enfants, travailler, défendre des causes, se promener, faire la cuisine, faire le ménage, faire la vaisselle, descendre les poubelles, dire bonjour aux chiens dans la rue, collectionner, conduire sa voiture, prendre le métro, jouer au foot, suer, connaître la fatigue, le chagrin et la joie.
Tout rendre, tout restituer.
S’offrir le risque de la générosité.
Pourquoi écrivez-vous ?
Dans mon dernier roman, Les mijaurées, un des deux personnages principaux se met à écrire du jour au lendemain suite à un chagrin d’amour et « tombe en écriture », comme on tombe amoureux. C’est exactement ce qui m’est arrivé. L’écriture est entrée dans ma vie comme une passion amoureuse, avec la même nécessité, impérieuse, avec la même énergie, lumineuse et Flageul1douloureuse aussi, avec la même sensation que la vie commence enfin, que la vie est là. J’écris parce que ça me remplit, parce que je me sens incomplète, désincarnée quand je n’écris pas, parce qu’il me semble que ma vie n’a réellement sa forme, sa respiration que quand j’écris, que quand ce qui me traverse, me bouleverse devient des mots, une histoire, des personnages. Comme s’il fallait nécessairement que l’écriture filtre la vie pour la compléter, l’achever et surtout la comprendre. Je ne comprends qu’avec les mots écrits, qu’avec cette matière très concrète, presque physique. Bizarrement, l’écriture n’a pour moi rien d’intellectuel. Elle est une matière presque palpable. J’ai la sensation que l’écriture fait entrer la lumière en soi, et je l’espère chez les autres aussi. C’est un double mouvement : j’écris d’abord pour moi, dans une sorte de conversation intérieure, je dois d’abord me plaire à moi, je suis ma première lectrice. Mais j’écris évidemment pour être lue par les autres ! Je crois que je cherche dans ce double mouvement à trouver ce qui, dans l’intime, nous rassemble.
Il me semble inenvisageable d’arrêter un jour d’écrire mais si je n’écrivais pas, je crois que j’aimerais travailler dans le cinéma, non pour le faire nécessairement mais plutôt pour le regarder, l’étudier. Mais je ne suis pas sûre que ce soit un métier…
.
>>8167608
Quel(s) conseil(s) donneriez-vous à un aspirant écrivain ?
Le premier conseil, c’est d’écrire bien entendu. Cela peut paraître un peu idiot mais c’est la chose la plus difficile à faire quand on n’est pas publié et qu’on rêve de le devenir. Aller au bout d’un texte, se confronter à cette solitude-là, qui est à la fois un refuge et une mise en danger, sur la longueur, ne pas lâcher, ne pas abandonner au premier écueil, aux premières relectures, qui sont souvent difficiles. Mais surtout, accepter le fait qu’écrire consiste surtout à réécrire, qu’on n’est pas bon du premier coup, qu’on ne trouve pas toujours le mot juste, la phrase parfaite au premier jet. Il me semble qu’il faut cette humilité associée à une nécessité absolue, impérieuse d’écrire. Parce que c’est trop difficile sinon, trop ingrat même si, et c’est ça la vraie récompense, on connaît en écrivant des moments de plénitude totale, de bonheur d’une rare intensité quand la phrase sonne parfaitement en soi, quand les mots sont justes, précis, qu’ils sont des flèches au cœur de la cible.
Et sinon, il me semble qu’il faut lire, beaucoup lire, et vivre, vivre très fort. Être très à l’écoute des autres, de soi, de ce qu’on ressent, comprend.
Et enfin, d’un point de vue pratique, je crois très fort au fait qu’il faut écrire tous les jours, ne pas attendre l’inspiration, l’éclair de génie : les mots attirent les mots, l’écriture crée l’écriture, plus on écrit et plus les mots viennent facilement, se désacralisent. Il faut s’y plonger et s’astreindre, à mon sens, à un rythme quotidien, ou tout du moins régulier, même qu’on n’a pas envie, même quand on se sent asséché, vide de mots justement. Il faut donner rendez-vous à son manuscrit et être à l’heure. Je crois beaucoup en une forme de discipline d’écriture, qui va complètement à l’encontre de l’idée que l’on se fait de l’écrivain foutraque qui écrit quand une inspiration quasi divine lui tombe dessus. Il faut travailler sans avoir peur de soi mais surtout, sans avoir peur des autres, de leur réaction, de leur regard. Écrire comme si on n’avait rien à perdre, ni personne. Avoir ce courage. Il en faut pour écrire !
Pourquoi écrivez-vous ?
Parce que mon cerveau est malade, atteint d’un mal insolite et insolent, la maladie de l’imaginite aigue. Les symptômes handicapent le quotidien : dès qu’un objet ou une personne entre dans mon champ de vision ou de réflexion, je dois toujours imaginer quelle histoire il a vécue, vit ou vivra, quitte parfois à ne pas l’écouter (aïe !). Pire, je mélange souvent tous ces êtres, choses et situations, je les secoue puis les imbrique dans des histoires abracadabrantesques. Le remède reste donc l’écriture, qui permet d’aérer son cerveau, comme on vide une corbeille. Ainsi, ces idées ne s’échappent plus… Puis le cerveau se remplit à nouveau, c’est excitant, au final.
1355-Jouanneau-La dictature du bien-couvHeureusement, je parviens à ne pas laisser cette maladie contaminer mon métier de journaliste, ce serait fâcheux, même si elle permet d’imaginer des formats d’articles originaux. J’écris pour des lecteurs avant tout, même si ce n’est qu’un(e) seul(e), pour tenter de répondre à leurs désirs, les piéger dans mes pages, les envoyer ailleurs, les « faire sourire », ou pleurer…
J’écris depuis toujours, même dans les cahiers d’écolier (de collégien, de lycéen, de faculté, de Sciences Po !), je ne pouvais pas m’empêcher de peaufiner quelques remarques, des développements dans la marge… Je concoctais aussi des histoires lorsque je m’ennuyais, les yeux qui scannaient le monde à travers la fenêtre, j’avais par exemple imaginé les aventures d’un gravillon, esseulé dans la cour…
Ah si je n’écrivais pas, je dessinerais, mais dans la mesure où je ne parviens pas à esquisser un carré, j’ai vite abandonné cette option. Peut-être est-ce pour cela que le rythme de mes écrits est souvent rapide et imagé !
.
Quel(s) conseil(s) donneriez-vous à un aspirant écrivain ?
Je n’ai aucun conseil à donner, aucune prétention de ma part. Si, je leur conseillerais de faire en sorte que je devienne leur lecteur!
>>8161129
>>8159320
But it's not that way at all - I learnt French in France for a year and was never once mocked. 90% of the buggers don't speak English at a level they are confident with, so they understand what it's like to find a foreign language difficult. They have more in common with Anglos than they would like to admit.
If you really don't like the French, go to Switzerland or Belgium.
So yep French > Italian
French is objectively easier too.
Dante & Buzzati are essentials in the western canon, but there are some really cool authors that play with dialect in an almost Joyce-like fashion such as Carlo Emilio Gadda.
>>8158173
Not with poetry
>Dante
>Petrarca
>Ariosto
>Tasso
>Leopardi
>Carducci
>>8158257
>wah someone disagrees with me
Can you name a single Italian novelist that has had any influence outside of Italy? Italian theatre? What, commedia dell'arte, where they smack people with the slapstick? Poetry is probably the best domain of Italy, though sadly few are familiar with it outside of Italy.
>>8167830
19th Century French poetry alone is more important than the entire Italian oeuvre in terms of influence. I don't deny the Italians poets you posted their merit, I just think that they, with the exception of Dante, are rather obscure figures in the grand scheme of world literature.
I don't mean to disrespect Italian literature when I say that French literature is richer. I find Italian literature better than the majority of Europe, especially since I prefer poetry to prose, thereby giving Italian literature higher status to me than Russian, which is actually rather contrarian to this board's taste. Nonetheless, given that there is more to literature than just poetry, Italy occupies a lower place than France in terms of great literature. The French since the beginning have always had great literature although I will admit that some of these contemporary nouveau roman and autobiographical novelists from France are pretty dull. I can't speak for contemporary Italian literature because none seem to have made their name since Calvino's death.
>>8167873
Calvino
>>8161969
>France
Godard
Truffaut
Rivette
Chabrol
Bresson
Melville
Renoir
>Italy
Fellini
Antonio
Rossellini
De Sica
Try harder
>>8169562
kekkai di gusto
Bertolucci
Elio Petri
Mario Bava
Argento
Sergio Leone
Pier Paolo Pasolini
Visconti
>>8167873
>especially since I prefer poetry to prose, thereby giving Italian literature higher status to me than Russian
So you just haven't read Blok or Mayakovsky yet
>>8161969
>The films are better, but don't tell anyone that, you may trigger the Godardfriends
French cinema is much more than Godard and the New Wave. France has been making great movies since the birth of cinema whereas Italian cinema is shit safe for two decades of greatness (and even then they weren't above the French).
>>8162348
>muh superuomo
>muh scopar
kys
>>8171744
There's no French Cinema from the 60s greater than l'eclisse
>>8171773
SAGEEEEE
Torna a lurkare su /r9k/. Hai solo dimostrato di non aver capito un cazzo di D'Annunzio. Bravo.
so is italian better or not?
>>8175247
Depends on what you're actually learning for.
French people are utterly uneducated and odds are you're prolly not gonna get on their - low - wavelength anyway.
French lit used to be p damn good, though.
>>8175434
>French people are utterly uneducated
in comparison to Italians?
>>8175464
While I don't know about the latter, I'm saying one should consider learning the former for the good reasons. You don't want to expect wrong things and end up bitter.
catholic church doctrine and reading dante in his native tongue
>>8167631
>But it's not that way at all - I learnt French in France for a year and was never once mocked.
It's people who are "fluent" without "really trying", by which they mean they make a lot of "eugh" sounds as filler, they can say something resembling "pouvez-vous parler anglais?" and get annoyed when it receives a "no" in response, and then when they do speak French it's half-assed barely understable shit i.e. They insist they have fluency but don't put in any effort either.
Even when I was at a stage where I was not so great at all at French and going "Nnnnoooouuuus aimeriiiiioooonnnns connnnaaaaîtttrre..." French people were really nice and understanding. But really by far most Anglos going abroad stick in the expat areas, don't practice the language and then get annoyed when this strategy doesn't pay off in the end and blame the locals.
I would also like to add that as far as French not being an international language, I have received directions in French in Prague and Munich from, guess what, Chefs on fagbreaks. It is the international language of an awful awful lot of of people in the food industry.
>>8159320
>Although going from French to Italian makes Italian really easy.
to a frenchman, italian is not natural. only spanish is natural from french.
>>8175618
I would argue studying Spanish would p much make you unlearn some fine areas of French if anything. You've got to drop repeated consonants, for instance.
>>8175775
>franchement
You mean oткpoвeннo surely? Blok and Mayakovsky and all that дoльник type stuff doesn't translate well, and you have to have some fairly good understanding of the language to read it right.
>>8175921
I think I read them on some site like poetryfoundation in translation, so I am not the right one to give them fair judgement. Usually when I judge literature, some big factors to me are the quality of the poem and poet's style, but also the poet's influence on foreign literature. Blok, I know Nabokov liked him, but his influence seemed not to extend beyond Slavic countries. As for Mayakovsky, I think he was hip with the Beat generation, but I'm not sure to what extent he actually influenced their poetry. As far as I know, Russian poets have not had as much influence beyond Russia as their novelists. That does not mean they are bad poets.
I'll admit it isn't fair of me to judge Russian poetry so superficially. I'll give them another try if you can find me some decent English translations, tovarish. But I still think that their influence outside of Russia is minimal. There are plenty of American and British poets I like that I could say the same about. The thing I find impressive about poetry is the fact that every nation and every people seem to do it well. The problem with judging poetry is the fact that we're always going to prefer the poems written in our native tongue. But as for influence, there are certainly some traditions which have had a greater influence beyond their country than others. Greece, Italy, and France are probably the greatest in terms of influence, though I still prefer American and British poetry just because it comes natural to me.
>>8175944
>Blok, I know Nabokov liked him, but his influence seemed not to extend beyond Slavic countries. As for Mayakovsky, I think he was hip with the Beat generation, but I'm not sure to what extent he actually influenced their poetry. As far as I know, Russian poets have not had as much influence beyond Russia as their novelists. That does not mean they are bad poets.
Ah, so yeah I see a bit of a gap in your knowledge there. Blok more or less started this whole "natural speaking" poetry thing that eventually led to Mayakovsky, that thing where you make a picture out of the poem (big in France like that one what looks like a horse iykwim) and eventually free style non metrical poetry. But Blok and Mayakovsky actually had p strict meters (if you want to know more they used ictuses (sp?) rather than feet and Nabokov wrote a bit on it but used the older term pauznik rather than dolnik).
Mayakovsky's idea behind the pictorial type poetry developed out of having that basic natural rhythm in there and just being able to change inflexion and emphasis slightly by changing line breaks. What's a little weird is, as that sort of poetry become more and more free metrically, you had some westerners thinking it'd be real clever and original to go back to the early style of these pictorial poem things but just write them straight out without any clever formatting. John Hollander is a good example of this. And of course he wrote a load of stuff really really similar to Blok and Mayakovsky.
>>8176009
I think Apollinaire called those calligrams, but I have no idea if that is the standard term.
It is interesting to see from your comments on Blok and Mayakovsky that Russian poetry experienced the same changes that Anglo-American and French poetry experienced roughly around the same time. Were Russian poets reading many foreign poets? I know that Whitman and Poe had a tremendous influence on French poetry and then ironically these same French poets influenced many American modernists, some of whom had rejected Whitman and Poe for being too vulgar. I guess the French liked Whitman and Poe in translation! Anyway, I'm curious if the Russian poets arrived there independent of foreign influence.
>>8158215
Invero la figa l'ha ottenuta, semplicemente non era quella che desiderava.
>>8157985
It's closer to LatinI guess
>>8176034
I think calligrams are specifically written with a pen in stylised handwriting tho I could be wrong. I think Mayakovsky's influence is much more on the side of printed typeface type of thing like pic related.
I don't know if all sources agree (almost certainly not) but I've read a fair amount that says he kickstarted that whole kind of interest in calligrams in general again tho. And I don't think anyone really disagrees on his heavy influence on dadaism either.
>>8176034
>Anyway, I'm curious if the Russian poets arrived there independent of foreign influence.
Oh and almost certainly there were outside influences, but Blok kickstarted the silver age and he reckoned his naturalist type verse came to him in a dream iirc. I'm sure there are a few influences mentioned (I really would be surprised if no Nordic and environs influence could be found) but there's like a mythology behind the whole movement that's a bit like it's purely Russian.
>>8176044
>>8157985
Italian women are hairy. French women > Italian women. However, you are never ever going to impress a French woman with your horrible pronunciation of French.
>>8176123
Are you kidding? Italian women are definitely known to be hairy just like the other Meds, but hairy French women is like a standard joke in Anglophone nations about as common as jokes about the French military. Are you French or something?
>>8176141
This. I'd say a bigger meme about Italian women is that they're promiscuous. The one with French women being hairy is much more well known though.
>>8176147
I didn't know that about Italian women. Some of them look pretty slutty in those old Fellini films but I figured that was just him. I can't think of any jokes about Italian women except them being loud and sexy. They have a lotta fun but don't tell la mama, eh?
I quickly browsed the thread and I must say I'm impressed by the fact everyone seems to have retarded opinions (Frenchman, Italians and foreigners alike).
As a Frenchman who's also fluent in Italian and knows both literatures, here is my opinion:
The main character of French literature is that there's maybe a hundred excellent (and relevant) writers who complete each other.
Italian literature has less major authors, but they can be better individually than the great names of France (Dante or Ariosto delivered more than Villon or Baudelaire... and the average Italian poet is much better than the average French poet).
However, French literature as a whole is more complete (maybe the most complete in the world), and has more tastes, nuances, and extremes to offer. It goes from Racine to Céline, from Voltaire to Léon Bloy, from Stendhal to Rimbaud... without losing its distinct "Frenchness". Italy doesn't have such a wide range, but can hit harder where it reaches.
Also remember that if Italy is the mother of all arts in Europe... France was the most populous and most influential country (by far) for centuries and centuries, until USA took her crown.
So both languages are essential, with French being more relevant for being the lingua franca of cultured Europe in past centuries.
Regarding learning: Italian is probably easier to learn than French, but once you know French, Italian will come very easily.
Anyway, a cultured person in the West should know both (or at least have a basic grasp or both). They're worth it.
>Question: will French people make fun of me if I butcher their language?
The French mentality is: if it's not absolutely perfect and mind-boggling (in any domain of life), you get trashed. Hence the high average level of our literature, cuisine, etc.
But the Anglo accent is cute.
>>8169562
>Godard
>Truffaut
meme as fuck
Where's Carné ? Where's Feuillade ? Where's Vigo ? Where are Lumière and Méliès ? Where's Pialat ? Where's Rohmer ?
>>8176608
>Lumière and Méliès
Do you watch their films often?
>>8176469
This
