Who is the better author?
>>8113082
take this to /tv/ pls m8888888
In terms of world building, general complexity and writing style its Tolkien
In terms of plot and intrigue it may be GRRM, but his series isnt finished yet, so it is not the right time to judge
>>8113094
Martin has a very grotesque writings style though. Tolkien never resorted to shock value.
>>8113094
turin turambar story was the best fantasy shit writen. That said, fantasy genere is shit in general anyway
>>8113098
>Gollum eats a delicious, nutrition-packed baby
>Rape and torture of elves
>Sadistically violent orcs, who even rap, of all things
>Cannibal orcs
>Devil (Sauron) worship by orcs and humans alike
>Muh ebil easterners trying to enslave muh mythical yoorup
>Tom Bombadil
I agree, no shock value there.
>>8114361
>orcs rap
what
They're not even in the same category
>>8114395
They don't rap. That anon just doesn't understand what he read.
Tolkien is far superior. The hobbit reads like a typical Victorian novel, complete with wonderfully memorable beginning lines, set in an alternate universe.
That's why no one has been able to best Tolkien. Not only was he a great world builder but he could actually write a novel, which gives lotr the distinction of being "literary fantasy" -- something one else has really achieved since. Grrm is a script writer and so his novels are entertaining but they are not literature.
>>8113082
I'm sad that I have lived to see the time where this question can be asked; sincerely or not.
>>8113082
>fiction
that aside 0.5/8, made me respond
>>8114920
Singing isn't rapping anon.
>>8114361
That's all shit you'd find in any mythology, though
>>8115245
this graph is actually pretty accurate, can confirm. source: i've been baiting for years
>>8115806
So you might say you've become a master baiter ?
>>8114361
his prose is so slow and boring that it doesn't really shock anymore
Martin is one ugly motherfucker. So i'll go with Tolkien
>>8114361
Nice bait
>>8113094
So having a dozen meandering plot lines that go no where and don't relate is better plot structure?
>DUDE CHARACTERS DIE LMAO
>except muh main characters hehe
Fuck this overrated fatfuck piece of shit
Well they are really fundamentally different. One invokes the ideas of grand adventure an mythology whilst the other is down to earth and character driven.
>world building
>adventure
>ideas
>general fantasy and sense of wonder
Toke the weed
>characters
>story
>politics
>interesting, realistic locations
>use of fantasy to either A) take a sledge hammer to the convictions of people in his world or B) provide conspiracies for lore masters
George Cholesterol Tits and Wine Martin
>>8113098
>shock value.
Please go back to tumblr. Human history is filled with strife and wa has always resulted in someone getting tortured or raped. Its just realistic that so many people die or get fucked over by others
>>8116787
Yeah people overlook how much he protects certain characters. Namely tyrion, who should have died at least 10 times by now
>>8115180
>reading the songs
nigga i just skimmed that shit
>>8116851
Don't make the excuse that Martin was trying to be "realistic" and/or "confrontational." He's was being edgy because most people (whether or not they would admit it) are attracted to the most disgusting things (everybody is a /b/tard gore person inwardly, it's just active /b/tards are vocal about it); it has nothing to do with trying accurately write about the dark side of the human condition.
>>8117098
Check out the Tolkien Ensemble. There a group that makes music out all the songs and poems of LOTR. It'll make you fall in love. Tolkien's poetic ambition.
They're both good, why does everything have to be a competition with you guys?
They're both bad, why does everything have to be a competition with you guys?
>>8114361
actual value is able to also be shocking. generally saying "shock value" refers to works with no value other than the shock.
>>8114920
fucking metal
there's only one way to settle this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0
>>8117364
>Don't make the excuse that Martin was trying to be "realistic" and/or "confrontational."
Why not? That is clearly his intent. If he was trying to be edgy why would he even try to have character development and world building? He would do what the show would do and cut straight to all the sexual assault and keep shoving it in. The only original addition those writers have is a rape scene and the stabbing of a pregnant woman.
>>8114920
That's is a serious choon. Love that bassline.
>>8117892
>"clearly"
show ur work
I'm reading throught the feast of crows and I refuse to give a fuck about any of the fuckers in Dorne.
>>8118018
Pleb
>>8118018
Such a pleb. The Dorne arc has a really satisfying end in AFFC.
>>8117370
>Check out the Tolkien Ensemble. There a group that makes music out all the songs and poems of LOTR. It'll make you fall in love. Tolkien's poetic ambition.
If this is bait it really worked. If it's not ...
>>8114920
This is such a stupidly groovy song. It feels so inappropriate but I love it so much.
>>8113082
Actually good Fantasy author coming through.
>>8118595
>good Fantasy author
>>8113082
Is this the new Harrisposting? The answer to this question is obvious. Gurm reads like bad television put to paper. He is a young adult author who tries to disguise the immaturity of his works with grotesque and at times scatological shock to the point that it becomes banal. Tolkien, while insipid and overly sentimental at times, is almost universally regarded as a solid writer who essentially spawned an entire genre complete with its own network of tropes and inspired the imaginations of three generations in less than 1,200 pages.
Tolkien wrote his books with a grander philosophical message in mind. Tolkien wanted to show a new generation what was important in life, it all goes back to friendship, loyalty, honesty and ultimately faith. Gurm, in his """realism""" has no overarching message or framework in his books. They are commercial pieces, the 'worldbuilding' he does is an end in itself while for Tolkien it was merely a means to his end.
>>8116851
>durrrrr human history was like this so you have to write fantasy novels like it, no choice to do things any differently
>thats why everyone loves fantasy novels, they're just like real life!
>>8118260
Have you listen to Tolkien Ensemble? No?
Then fuck off.
>>8114920
That's not a raps and I love it
>we don't want want to go to war today
>>8120041
>Tolkien wrote his books with a grander philosophical message in mind. Tolkien wanted to show a new generation what was important in life, it all goes back to friendship, loyalty, honesty and ultimately faith. Gurm, in his """realism""" has no overarching message or framework in his books. They are commercial pieces, the 'worldbuilding' he does is an end in itself while for Tolkien it was merely a means to his end.
This is the real difference between the two
>Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.
>>8113082
CS Lewis
>>8120041
>new Harrisposting
This has been going on on here since nearly the beginning
>>8113082
Tolkien wrote a novel for the ages.
Martin wrote an incomplete and sloppy mess that he let a tv crew finish before he did.
>>8113082
Tolkien is a much more important and influential author.
That being said, I'd always choose to read GRRM because his works relates to me much more.
>>8122371
>because his works relates to me much more.
So you're an edgy imbecile?
>>8122228
You didn't finish your sentence. You meant to write:
>Martin wrote an incomplete and sloppy mess that he let a tv crew finish before he did... for the ages
>>8122072
What did he mean by this?
>>8120041
>Gurm, in his """realism""" has no overarching message or framework in his books. They are commercial pieces, the 'worldbuilding' he does is an end in itself while for Tolkien it was merely a means to his end.
I would not say that this is true. The overarching theme is the pursuit of power, love, honor, and other universal things that human beings strive for. The different ways various rulers handle the power they have is especially interesting - just compare how Theon, Jon, Daenerys or Tyrion do when they become figures of authority. Martin also does a great job at depicting that being a good person does not necessarily make a good ruler or vice versa.
Another overarching framework is the nature of war and its effect on people - with the ultimate, mythical clash of Ice and Fire being the continuation of this theme. This is, of course, much more interesting than just another clash of Good vs Evil as both Fire and Ice are deadly to regular humans. That is why we should expect a bitter-sweet ending to the series and it is this pathos and this tragedy, which can can be felt throughout the series, from the very beginning, that makes most of the appeal for many readers.
>>8122588
Also there are shit tons of blogs on theme analysis, mainly from the point of view of plot directory. So if you are to lazy to do it your self just watch or read those.
>He found a line and pulled on it, fighting toward the hatch to get himself below out of the storm, but a gust of wind knocked his feet from under him and a second slammed him into the rail and there he clung. Rain lashed at his face, blinding him. His mouth was full of blood again. The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit.
What did he mean by this?
>>8121129
Have you listen to a pathetic manchild? Yes?
Then fuck off.
>>8120041
Good post. I don't consider either to be amazing as a reader, but as a scholar the idea of even comparing GRRM to Tolkien is laughable.
Before he ever wrote a page of fantasy, Tolkien reinvented the entire study of historical English and brought Beowulf back to the public eye. He proved that OE was spoken all the way up to the 13th century in parts of England through careful linguistic examination, and singlehandedly brought the genre of 'fairy tales' and 'fantasy' to a modern adult audience. Every trope of fantasy people are familiar with today is rooted in Tolkien's emulation of Anglo-Saxon and Germanic literature.
GRRM essentially writes down real historical events with the names changed, then throws in the schlockiest elements of Tolkienian fantasy at the periphery
>>8123828
>amazing
>scholar
>>8117364
The people who understand human nature and look at it up close are typically better off than the ones who don't and actual create REAL gorey situations.
Go to any rekt thread on /gif/ most of the people in those images are not people who have read or thought about anything in their life, with the laughable exception of extremists.
>>8122588
George doesn't write deeply. The love, honor, and conflict are ultimately pointless because of his nihilism and negative outlook on life.
>>8124436
I don't even like GRRM, but your reductionist treatment of him is just a miss. Have you even read his blog? He believes in the good in people, and tries to express a full range of human emotion.
>>8124445
I have and generally he points out how horrible people are and how terrible life can be because his favorite football team lost.
Nothing he has written suggests to me that he believes in people beyond their ability to destroy. All of his works reflect this as even the good characters and institutions are actually horrible deep down.
>>8124474
I wouldn't say that all his good characters are horrible deep down. They have flaws sure, but everyone does. He's talks a lot about how he thinks no one is all good and no one is all evil and I think he tries to reflect that in his writing.
I think Gene Wolfe is a better writer than both, no meme.
Tolkien is the most significant by far however.
>>8125241
I agree, Wolfe is the better story teller of the three, but holy shit, Tolkien's influence.
Where does that leave Martin, idk, the fattest.
>>8124915
Joffrey lacks any redemptive qualities. As do a number of other characters who are agonists.
>>8125938
Aye, but Joffrey was, ultimately, just a kid who was ruined by his mother's spiteful upbringing and lack of a real father figure... Robert didn't give two fucks about his "children" and neither did Jaime. It was also hinted that he may have had a mental disorder from a young age (see the incident with the cat and her kittens).
The realization that he's just a child who does not know any better hit Tyrion hard while he watched him choke... quite a powerful scene.
>>8124474
>All of his works reflect this as even the good characters and institutions are actually horrible deep down.
I wouldn't say that Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Bran or Tyrion are horrible deep down. They are good people and, unfortunately, that is what brings them down ultimately. Hell, I wouldnt even say Jaime or The Hound are horrible deep down... quite the opposite. They seem horrible and do horrible things but are also very tragic and have the capacity to redeem themselves and do better.
There are only a very few characters that I would call outright evil. The Mountain, Ramsey, Euron Crow's Eye... and scum like Bloody Mummers and Mountain's men.
>>8124152
What?
>>8114330
>reminding me of turin
I'll just leave this here
>>8114920
>>8117881
Tolkien slapped GRRM down, and deservedly so.
>>8113082
Tolkien, easy.
>>8126662
The problem is more on George's modern outlook on life.
>>8128145
What do you mean, exactly? We're discussing his writing, not his personal life.
Or do you want to say that his outlook is too modern for what he's writing about?
>>8126662
Joffrey clearly had sociopathic tendencies that I don't think parenting could have totally eliminated. It's often emphasized how Tommen and Myrcella don't behave like him, and granted they're younger, but not by that much. Joffrey enjoys torturing animals, and his own father is bewildered and repulsed by him.
That said Joffrey does have humanizing characteristics if you read between the lines a bit. He has a respect for his father that the rest of his family doesn't, and is desperate for his approval. He tells off Tywin in favor of Robert, and refuses to believe that he's the product of incest. But he doesn't know how to seek Robert's approval, so he reroutes the desire into violent tendencies. Dad likes to hunt, so he shows him a cat he butchered. Dad likes to defeat his enemies, so he sends a man to murder Bran Stark. He's warped, but there is a genuine person underneath.
>>8128233
Well said, anon. I think that the problem is that most readers don't read the books very carefully and are therefore unable to appreciate all the careful planing and minute details of Martin's writing.
>>8128579
>the careful planing and minute details of Martin's writing
>>8128589
Laugh all you want but it's true. The story has a dozens of overarching plot lines and a cast of hundreds but still manages to be coherent and make sense. You can't deny it.
>>8113082
Probably not the right thread but yeah
Should I buy The lord of the Rings one volume edition or 3 divided books? Thanks.
Both authors have very different viewpoints of the world that bleed into their work.
You have Tolkien who took part in a war, lost all his friends, and came back to find his home altered by industrization forever. He had a wife and kids and taught at Oxford until he died. Then you have GRRM who spent his life writing scifi novels and TV scripts to make ends meet. Nothing much else about him other than lost loves and the overweightness, and he never finished his own series.
I could go on about the dynamics, themes, characters, plot for both book series, but its easier to condense everything into one sentence.
Ultimately, Ice and Fire pulls me down while Lord of the Rings brings me up.
>>8128871
>Ultimately, Ice and Fire pulls me down while Lord of the Rings brings me up
yes
>>8116851
Yeah, GoT doesn't get pull the human history card. It has a fucking entire continent that has had steel for 6000 or so years and barely progressed, and a main plot point where control for a continet the size of south america is being fought over, despite the tech level and fact that the population is about 40 million, lower than even the lowest point in medieval europe.
>>8114920
came here to post this
Has anyone managed to finish Clash of Kings. I find it awfully boring and slow.
>yfw it's a Sansa chapter
Anyone having read "On Fairy-Stories" knows the answer.
Hate his translation of Beowulf, though.
>>8114920
I kinda wanna watch the animated movie now.
I'm like 300 pages into the 1st ice and fire book, and am quite frankly thinking of dropping it. The book spent the first one hundred or so pages vomiting exposition at me, and now just feels like it's meandering around. Is this basically what the whole series is like, or should I stick with it?
>>8130930
read something decent
>>8128948
He has stated many times publicly that he is anti war when the war seems unnecessary. In this instance he is talking about the American intervention in Vietnam. He filed for CO status and was granted it quite easily because of his moral standing. Martin has said that he is not a complete pacifist and there are wars that have moral stakes that he would have taken part in, like fighting the Nazis.
His message isn't just flat out "dude war is bad make peace not love" but that war is reality and often times mass life is utterly wasted for petty reasons which we see in his work. On the flip side we see the glory of battle and how thrilling the violence is because its inherent to us as a species. He tries to cover the glory and the aftermath.
sort of related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek2O6bVAIQQ
>>8131697
Wow, thanks for this, anon. Now I may give a chance to ASOIAF since it's apparently not all grimdark shit.
>>8128229
>Martin is a terrible person, based on superficial interpretations of his writings ABOUT A FICTIONAL WORLD
>Martin's personal views can't be reflected by his personal life
...
>>8131760
Wow, something isn't black and white simplistic? No fucking shit pseud. Leave this board, and take all the other fucktards with you.
>>8131780
Why so angry, pup?
>>8131159
Vietnam looms over his work, that and his turtles. They are his constant references. Why is Vietnam so much worse than fighting the Japanese? Their goals were basically the same and both wars were started because of the attack on ships. I question his motivation for using the Nazi example because of how the Nazis are thought of in popular culture. They are the ultimate evil, there is nothing worse. Not even Stalin or Mussolini invoke the same hate.
Really, I think he is anti-war. He will never find a war that he finds is just.
>>8116843
>>interesting, realistic locations
>>8131697
Very nice, Feast for Crows was my favorite as well.
>>8114920
fucking sick!
>>8122474
It's an analogy to socialism.
>>8113082
C.S. Lewis was a better writer, but GRRM's fiction is superior.
>>8133505
wait fuck
