When did you realize that the Islamic State is the living realization of the radical Traditionalist revolt against modernity that men like Julius Evola dreamed of?
>>8039219
ISIS is pretty cool once you get down to it. Cyberpunk hackers, neo-situationist rebels taking denouement to extreme new heights, 21st century Rockstars badass tribal warriors and defenders of eternal tradition against modern degeneracy
>>8039219
Is evola the single most fedora tipping 'philosopher' there is?
>>8039230
I feel the same way honestly. At the very least I can't condemn them for resisting globalized modernity in the way that they are
>>8039236
I don't even know what fedora tipping is supposed to imply anymore. I thought it was supposed to refer to atheists
>>8039219
Al Qaeda could be, not ISIS. ISIS is based on canalizing the violence of youth into ideological conflicts. The fighters barely know anything about Islam and don't care that much as long as they can rape, steal and gain fame. It isn't about being well-read and holding traditional, conservative beliefs any more. Unlike Al Qaeda, ISIS is prospecting among delinquents.
>>8039249
General reactionary thought, especially with ridiculous 'edgy' overtones
>>8039254
I suppose they do completely lack the inner circle of initiated intellectual elite that would be necessary for any true Traditionalist movement. It's possible that I'm just not aware of their existence though
>>8039254
That's exactly how the Taliban and all AL Qaeda off shoots recruit in heavy fighting. They were doing thr same thing in thr mountains of Afghanistan just grabbing up villagers to fight. They just fed them hate and put them out with a gun.
>>8039259
I guess that makes sense, as fedoras are worn by those with neo noir fantasies in regards to their identity
>>8039219
If only Putin had listened to Alex Dugin, crowned himself Tsar and purged all those pesky liberals and 5th columnists Stalin-style. sad 2bh
>>8039242
>tfw you are the only poster on 4chan who loves the post-everything cacophony that is globalization
Edgy opinion: the world needs a Catholic ISIS. Or at least the world needs some sort of Catholic 'extremist' group.
>>8039219
Did you actually read this? ISIS's traditionalism is far from Evola's vision.
>>8039601
That is basically what the Knight Templar were.
>Enter battle with disregard to inferior numbers/strategic position (God will protect you if he thinks you are cool)
>Don't leave as long as flag is flying
>Never get taken alive (unless you are that stupid faggot that made everyone march without water)
>Insha'Allah = Deus Vult
>OG religious extremists
>>8039601
start one. people will join.
>>8039601
>Edgy opinion: the world needs a Catholic ISIS. Or at least the world needs some sort of Catholic 'extremist' group.
It would need to be SSPX because anti pope francis would shut it down immediately
>>8039601
>Cuckholics
>doing anything in 2016
Kek
>>8039219
isj.org.uk/isis-and-counter-revolution-towards-a-marxist-analysis/
>>8040009
That photo reminds me of a scene in Gravity's Rainbow.
Yay, another thread full of Evola memesters; rather than people who have actually read him.
>>>8039219
They're not. ISIS are not riding the tiger, they are trying to fight it and control it. They picked a fight with modernity and modernity, in its current state, is far too powerful for the fight to be deemed admirable.
When a man writes a book that is a "survival guide", it should be obvious that waging war against the world is not a tactic he'd espouse.
If anything, Evola was a fucking stoic; most of what he writes is about staying 'true to yourself' (in the metaphysical sense) whilst experiencing which is in total opposition to that which you believe, and what you are.
The stoicism ends when the tiger runs out of steam, after which you can safely dismount and put it down; metaphorically with the principles you have preserved along its course. The tiger of modernity is still going strong, however; and you'd be a moron to think it's getting tired so soon. We're only a few thousand years into the Kali Yuga, to which Evola subscribed and which goes on for tens (and hundreds) of thousands of years.
>>8039242
Evola is more about 'enduring' modernity than resisting it. Let modernity run its course; stay true to your own in the face of it.
>>8039259
>General reactionary thought
Evola isn't really a reactionary by any measure. Indeed, most of his life was spent in opposition to the 'bourgeois residues' to which reactionaries wished to return.
That is why, for example, he was so involved with Dadaism; 'Traditional' art was merely one example of the residues which betrayed the eternal values of Tradition.
According to Evola's thought, you could create an entirely new form of art/music/etc tomorrow; and it would be just as 'Traditional' as the bourgeois/past forms of art/music/etc (if not moreso), *provided* it was in keeping with what he believed to be the eternal values of Tradition (truth, justice, etc).
>>8040031
Other examples:
1) He didn't give a shit about marriage, which is what most conservatives/reactionaries cry about.
2) He really didn't like Christianity at all, and hated that it was purged of almost all esoteric elements.
3) His support for fascism was lukewarm as fuck; constantly sniping Mussolini and his followers for betraying what fascism should have been; branding them thugs/etc (though he nonetheless came to believe that 'a bad solution is better than none', thinking he could change fascist movements like the SS from within).
>>8039539
confirmed for not having lived near arabs
>>8039219
But having a respecful enemy is part of the traditionalist world. ISIS is the enemy we need to return to our truest Tradizion.
>>8039230
>eternal tradition
>like 600 years old
wew lad
>>8040031
Get yourself a trip, m8.
We need more people on here who actually know what this fuck was talking about.
>>8039259
What is that even supposed to mean? What do you mean by "edgy"? Aren't you just dismissing the form and style of an idea, and not the actual content of the idea itself?
>>8039645
hello /tg/
or is it /k/
>>8039219
/reddit/ or /pol/ please.
>>8040210
kill yourself, newfag
>>8040156
>respectful
half the western ISIS recruits are resentful gay babies buttmad at not fitting in in the west so they fly down to syria to chimp out
>>8039601
Yes that's exactly what we need, more fanatics who erase the complexity of the human condition, in favor of murdering for their primitive dogma.
Wew laddie.
What we actually need in the world is building one that isn't built on both exploitation of human beings and nature. Then we might start to actually build a society around freedom and solidarity. Until then, there will continue to be sectarian, land/resource, ideological, racial, etc violence.
All your plan does is add fuel to the fire. At least say we need a Jedi Order, the Jesuits who acted as peace keepers and advisors around the world might actually work, and they were considered warriors of God but the key is never attack, only defend. Not a crusade, be like the Jedi, not sith.>>8039645
>>8040633
>What we actually need in the world is building one that isn't built on both exploitation of human beings and nature.
are you some kind of eco communist or what
>>8040633
>What we actually need in the world is building one that isn't built on both exploitation of human beings and nature. Then we might start to actually build a society around freedom and solidarity.
would it be possible for a quote to have more spooks than this?
>>8039219
It fucking not is. It's reactionary and unfundamented. Way too young and has not proven to deal with consequences it cast upon itsself. It instrumentalizes paradigm changes and promotes violence in every way as long as it helps destruction of unwanted other paradigms.
>>8039601
It's cute that Catholics think they're edgy and relevant.
>>8040640
I suppose eco communist isn't a bad label, but you diminish me, my views, and our dialog by seeking to label and categorize me rather than learn from each other.
>>8040647
Do you have am argument against what I said? Or are you not interested in dialog and learning?
In case anyone else is wondering, these are fascinating examples of how some people aim to be constructive, seek solutions, consider possiblities, and others cannot see beyond their noses and aim to pull them down. That is the essential fight of human history, and only when the former group out numbers the latter shall we be free, until then you have the present order.
>>8040685
I'm no catholic, but the church remains a massively powerful institution. The Pope alone has the ears of billions. That is immense power.
>>8040633
>exploitation is wrong
>freedom is good
>solidarity is good
>violence is bad
we've got a true free thinker on our hands here
>>8040789
Not an argument. If you want me to elaborate on anything, ask relevant questions.
>>8040048
I have. They're loud as fuck and smoke a lot but they're no worse than lower-class whites
>>8040757
>Or are you not interested in dialog and learning?
I am but I don't think I will find it in you
>>8040757
>That is the essential fight of human history, and only when the former group out numbers the latter shall we be free, until then you have the present order.
See, the thing is that the west has tried this. We, tolerant secularists, got together and we had a jolly party where humanist kool-aid flowed in abundance and we toasted an upcoming era of unprecedented equality where neither race nor creed nor gender nor religion would matter much at all and the world would look like a John Lennon song. Sadly, throwing down our guns so that we might embrace all of the world left us vulnerable. The sad truth is that there is no future where we all coexist according to reasoned debate and the rejection of tribal thinking. The future, as always, belongs to the virile and the violent.
>>8040031
this guy gets it
>>8039219
Sounds glorious, op.
And i thought it was just bored guys, whit iq of 75, who stumbled on stash of ak-47:s.
>>8040031
>If anything, Evola was a fucking stoic
Good, apart from this.
He was quite happy to get his hands dirty; throwing his lot when the Nazis/etc, when he wasn't LARP'ing 'magic' Roman rituals with audiences including the likes of Mussolini.
>>8040842
That's close minded, you aren't interested in dialog, too full of bias and prejudice.
>>8040928
That's defeatist. Also we aren't vulnerable, America is more powerful than everyone else by an order of a magnitude. Unless you mean the general vulnerability of society, that is a given.
All because something has failed once, doesn't mean it will again, especially given how different things are now. Te problem with saying it will fail based on the past is to forget how many enemies compassion, tolerance, and sustainability had and still has. Capitalism is still the eminent ideology, the fight won't be quick, and it won't be easy, but given current trends in social awareness, automation, and ecological destruction, something will give in the next 50-100 years without a doubt, potentially making way for a new world order, or the total collapse of society.
>>8040961
>America is more powerful than everyone else by an order of a magnitude
America is a fracture hellscape of self-serving hedonism that will balkanize in the near future because of disparate demographics. Bombs are good, but wombs are always better.
>>8040961
>All because something has failed once, doesn't mean it will again,
==JUST==
==ONE==
==MORE==
==TRY==
>>8040967
Thats just speculation. But I would agree that hedonism and self interest has gone way too far, and reduces our love and compassion for our fellow man. The primary cause however is our economic and cultural systems, both aimed at furthering capitalist ideology. Schools do not teach kids to think critically, money is not distributed with equity, and essentially has ensnared our political system to further te interests of the moneyed class.
>>8040973
Yes, love, compassion, etc are always wirth trying again.
This doesn't just apply to society but to personal relations as well. You strike me as a defeatist, the system as beaten you down so far you've love lost. I'm here to tell you that a better world can in fact be had, and we can build it, but if too many people like you lack the courage to fight for it, it won't happen. In essence your personal failure causes the failure of justice.
You are important, act like it, the good needs you.
>>8040757
PURE IDEOLOGY
>>8040991
>Yes, love, compassion, etc are always wirth trying again.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up.
I am not quite convinced that good feelings and kumbayah drum circles are the needed medicine right now.
>>8039254
>The fighters barely know anything about Islam
WTF is wrong with people who say this shit? Those are 20-30 year old cunts that grew up BREATHING islam since they were 3. Everyday they were forced to memorize the koran and live it in every gesture.
>>8041059
Then they would not do what they were doing. The Koran explicitly says not to be an aggressor against others.
But I guess given US military invasion, that would justify jihad, but what they are doing isn't Jihad, they are doing brutality against non violent peoples.
>>8040633
>laddie
SNP cuck detected.
>>8041065
>The Koran explicitly says not to be an aggressor against others.
And yet Muhammad was a genocidal warlord who owned slaves and diddled children. Were they just having a laugh with verses like, "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
>But I guess given US military invasion, that would justify jihad
And what about the conquest of Spain by the Umayyads? Their further attempts at incursion into Europe? Islam and Christian Europe have been at loggerheads for more than a thousand years and it is sheer mental midgetry to insinuate that George W. Bush ruined some sort of loving relationship.
>>8041072
Nice try kiddo. Stay mad.
>>8041081
Irrelevant.
" Indeed, Allah enjoins justice, and the doing of good to others; and giving like kindred; and forbids indecency, and manifest evil, and wrongful transgression. He admonished you that you may take heed. (Al Quran 16:91)"
All this is digression away from the conversation though. We can create a peaceful world, but some people like you seem intent on repeating the mistakes of the past.
>>8041246
>Irrelevant.
It's irrelevant that their venerated figure, Muhammad, was, by all accounts, a very bad man? If he did in my home state a tenth of the things he did when he was alive, he would be condemned to execution without protest.
Islam is more Nietzschean than Evolian.
>>8041296
Islam literally means submission. Nothing Nietzschean about that.
>>8041246
That quote is nice, but in Islam subjugation of infidels is justice, or it's perfectly reasonable to hold that theological position for Muslims.
And there will never be a peaceful world with Islam. War is almost central to it.
>>8040809
>not an argument
Everything about you is a meme
>>8041309
Not that guys, and I'm not trying to pull any "religion of peace bullshit", but there's not any reason to believe there would ever be a peaceful world even without Islam.
>>8040203
more like 20 odd years old
>>8040928
>throwing down our guns
when did this happen exactly?
>>8039275
Rasputin?
I can't find the link but Dugin wrote an article a few months ago describing the radical traditionalism of ISIS as completely inauthentic, noting it's universalist outlook. It is not a revolutionary movement against modernity, but only seeks an alternative one where Salafi Islam rules instead of the west
>>8041501
Here it is
http://katehon.com/1302-the-terrorist-attacks-in-paris-lesson-of-enantiodromia.html
>>8040757
>I suppose eco communist isn't a bad label, but you diminish me, my views, and our dialog by seeking to label and categorize me rather than learn from each other.
language exists because we can't mind meld our ideas you fucking moron. Special snowflakes like yourself will hang on the day of the rope
>>8041501
>I can't find the link but Dugin wrote an article a few months ago describing the radical traditionalism of ISIS as completely inauthentic, noting it's universalist outlook.
that's a bullshit notion
islam is an international religion, it's aimed at the international audience at its roots, so it's simply retarded to call its radical international movement inauthentic because it's international
>>8041535
Wow you sound buttblasted.
Go chill with your mom, she loves you unconditionally, you sound like you could use that in your life.
>>8040203
most islamic traditions are a lot older than Islam itself
>>8040633
I think you're looking for reddit
>>8040633
>DUDE COMMUNISM LOL
>>8042212
your topics arent complex at all
its good old dusty humanism, quite honestly not even trying to disguise itself as something a bit more subtle
>>8039601
I wouldn't plant this flag upon Catholicism. There are deeper and truer roots to draw renewal of our Traditional spirit from.
>>8042223
Good ol' trusty humanism. Love that shit.
But it is an incredibly complex topic, if you don't see that, you don't really get it anon.
>>8042172
Yeah, i made up this new religion yesterday, but its traditions go back 100 000years, you know.
>>8042789
My new religion is based on biological propagation. Our traditions go back pretty far I must boast.
>>8042789
Islam is built upon Jewish and Christian scripture and theology. The Quran mostly offer commentary and reinterpretation of the already established canon of the Tradition, framing it in an Islamic context. Islam claims to be the true faith practiced from Adam, Moses, King David and to the Crucifixion.
Rene Guenon wrote extensively about how all ancient Traditions originate from the same transcendent principles despite aesthetic differences
>>8042814
Tradition is drawn from the supranatural anon
>>8042842
huh, maybe yours
>>8042868
Tradition is necessarily the unification and realization of our body, soul and spirit, understood as the form of our completion. This is true of all Traditions of our world. Biological reductionism is not a Tradition
>>8039219
You should have read Ride The Tiger instead of Revolt Against The Modern World. In the first book, Evola truly realize the futility of resisting the modern age and reserves appreciation for traditions to his spirit. Evola is fucking great, but sometimes he gets a little spastic with his wordings. Maybe it's the translation.
>>8039219
It is not.
>>8040633
Fuck off and die red
>>8043351
The buttblasting continues. I'd give you a hug, but can't through cyber space, you sound like you need one.
Good night kiddo, Stay egdy.
>>8039263
The leader has a phd
>>8040659
It's not reactionary at all. It's modernistic. It's applied enlightment philosophy.
>>8041338
>Not that guys, and I'm not trying to pull any "religion of peace bullshit",
Was pulled by GWB's scriptwriter. Otherwise you're tru, m8. No one is as creative when it comes to violence as us humans.
>>8041501
Funny to agree with him on at least one point.
>>8041444
I'm sure you and the other circlejerkers in Saudi-funded Muslim-studies departments is smarter than the thousands of Islamic scholars that came before you, and I'm sure you guys know better than Muhammad what his own book means.
But that doesn't change the fact that the history of Islam since its inception has been violent.
>region torn apart by foreign empires
>disaffected youths united by demagogues
>using religious pretext to rape and pillage and seize land
>tfw ISIS isn't misunderstanding Islam
>tfw ISIS is basically exactly how Islam started
>>8039219
I realized this when I discovered #frogtwitter and became a volcel A E S T H E T I C bucolic ecosalafist bodybuilder
>>8044172
Conflating two things. Humanities' violent history, and the violence of specifically one religion. Secondly, you have to actually analyze what's happening now.
How man total Muslims are there? How many are actually in ISIS? Also Muslim scholars agree with me. Just listen to the guy that actually engages the wider audience on CNN, fox, etc forget his name.
>>8039242
>At the very least I can't condemn them for resisting globalized modernity in the way that they are
They are literally burning children alive.
Thank fuck I'm not as edgelord as you are.
>>8044671
>They are literally burning children alive.
usa does the same since 40ss, what do you think air strikes do to the childrens which they hit, pet their heads?
>>8044658
Semites and in general "middleman minorities" (Chinese, Armenians, etc.) have always been against tanning; alpha WASP play tennis in sun...
- @BronzeAgePerv (pbuh)
>>8044679
Cadre of Aryan Bronze Age surfer-philosophers ruling over the diverse masses of the world, breeding new races, gods and sprites returning
- @BronzeAgePerv (pbuh)
>>8044674
I'm not excusing the West on those accounts at all. But there is a marked difference between children dying in collateral damage and men specifically choosing to lead children out into an area for other people to see and literally setting those little kids on fire.
Both situations are horrible and inexcusable. But if you think both are comparable here then you're deluding yourself. If Western soldiers marched kids out into an area and set them on fire you'd see citizens all over the West cheering them on? Nope. Because that is what is happening here. ISIS men are burning kids alive and radicals all over the world are cheering them on. Obviously the majority of Islam would think this was abominable, but there are enough that are cheering them on for this to be surreal and deeply worrying for the rest of us - moderate muslims included.
The West has a history of imperialism, subterfuge, and really fucked up shit in general. I'm not glossing over that at all. But if you're sympathising with ISIS and the things that they are doing you're a fucking edgelord clown.
>>8044138
Where the fuck is ISIS not reactionary? It is its main thing. Its main course is to be against things. To claim that it was for the benefit of anything is wrong.
Please explain "enlightment philosophy" and please explain "modernistic". What you said there is such a bullshit!
I cant see any point in your posts anon. We have seen theocratic proto-states before in history and never ever has any of them been "modernistic" or "enlighted".
Let them deal with the consequences the cast upon themselves, like we all had to. Overall, the whole thing is historically retarded. Just a political thing which went wrong big time and now stupid parrots like you jump on the train. Remember, the people who encourage you to justifiy ISIS with your own words feed off your insecurity and lack of faith and education.
>>8044670
Muslim scholars agree with you now. Whether they're right or wrong the historical scholarly view has always been Jihad as military struggle against infidels, which is reflected in the history of Islam which has been a history of violent conquest of other regions and forcible conversion to Islam.
How many Germans put people in camps? #notallnazis
>>8045710
Lol g8b8m8.
So the crusades by Christians? Speaking of Nazis, weren't most Christians?
>>8045734
If you're honestly defending a religion that still murders people in the streets where it reins supreme because of muh crusades you are a moron and the epitome of a sheltered, vacuous Bernie-person.
>>8045734
Hitler loved Islam laddy
>>8045746
Which Islam are you talking about? it's far from a monolithic entity, the Salafists happen to have a bigger genoicidal hard on for the Shia than for the Christians.
In India, Hindu fundamentalists go on pogroms against Muslims and Christian converts to this very day. And besides, don't ya know Capitalism murders ppl on the streets all around the world haha
>>8045766
okay now you're being silly
>>8045766
>criminal niggers
>kids
>>8045775
My political views are based on obsessive nightmares in which da niggers fuck the wives I don't have and steal property that doesn't even belong to me. That's why I crave an authoritarian daddy figure who can dominate me and protect me from the darker races.
>>8043510
Take a helium nap red.
>>8046042
Haha still mad!
Love it. Moma didn't give you a hug?
>>8040816
Except for all the violence and murder and crime.
>>8044674
>group A is as bad as group B therefor group B isn't bad
Are you fucking serious with this logic?
>>8044717
Daesh dreams about a past that has never been. That's not reactionary. That's plain Bulius Ebola circle jerk.
The enlightment made people believe that they could sit on their asses, discuss for a while and then go out and solve people's problems. As of now, more or less liberal democrats prides themselves with their heritage from the enlightment. But the enlightment also created Robespierre's reign of terror - the very template of 20th century totalitarian pruges.
Modernism is applied enlightment. Modernism is an ideology of violence. Modernism claims that no one before has thought different nor made sensible and practical buildings etc. Therefore: To hell with the past.
>lack of faith
No, religion isn't the solution. See above. Enlightment and modernism is eschatology.
>>8046984
Oh, forgot to add a sentence.
>The enlightment made people believe that they could sit on their asses, discuss for a while and then go out and solve people's problems.
So when you have the solution to people's problems, what's stopping you from using violence to save them from themselves?
ISIS is as metaphysical as the democratic party. They're territorialists, globalists and in every sense of the word modernists.
They're modernists confusing themselves for traditionalists.
It has happened before, in Evola's time, and he was not kind for fascism either. Read "metaphysics of war" and you'll see a man not agreeing with the doxa of that time.
To unspook yourself of modernity is the greatest challenge. And no, it does not involve "lol go live in deh woods" ludditism.
>>8046984
You probably think you're smart.
>>8047089
>"metaphysics of war"
Is that the book where he's all "War is a matter of spirital strength"?
>>8047133
No. I KNOW I'm smart.
>>8047152
No, it's the idea that war, like meditiation, can lead to spiritual transcendence.
>>8047211
Oh, even worse than I imagined.
>>8047089
How can anyone not call fascism modernist?
>>8047230
Why is that?
Because current year ethics?
>>8047089
>lol go live in deh woods
It wouldn't hurt tbqh
>>8047378
You're a big traditionalist.
>>8047243
modernism = enlightenment values
Fascism is a rejection of the enlightenment... a form of post-modernism if you will
Anyone else absolute monarchy?
>>8041471
Are you aware of the situation in Europe?
>>8047562
>harming others =/= good
spooky
>>8048034
So I'm sure you have no problem being harmed by others?
Real spooky right? Fucking children on this board, children of one book. Stirner is their Christ, the religion of the truly stupid.
>>8039219
Obvious. People talk about that here all the time. Even have a screenshot of a really decent points made in this direction.
>>8040031
>waging war against the world is not a tactic he'd espouse.
Isn't that in direct betrayal of the principle of "pure action"?
>>8041444
Allah doesn't exist for a sure fact my dude.
Maybe a spiritual god force if not nothing, but the abrahamic god in any incarnation is just straight myth.
Sorry homie, but that's the way it is
We still niggas
>>8049392
Cool story bro, except you don't actually know that, nor do I even care one way or the other.
Praise Allah.
>>8049392
Metaphysical thoughtforms my man
>>8049410
>nor do I care one way or the other
>Praise Allah
Thought you didn't care you trickster
Where's the proof
>>8044674
Learn what collateral damage means you sheltered fuck
>>8041246
>posts violent verse
NAH MAN NAH HERE IS A PEACEFUL ONE YOU SEE THAT TOTALLY NEGATES IT
Fuck. As a person living in an Islamic country people like you piss me the fuck off
>>8049482
Aren't the later verses more focused on the beheadings and murder while the ones at the beginning are more spiritual? Wouldn't the violent ones overwrite the priors based on seniority alone?
>>8042271
>Grab me my horned helmet and furs!
>>8049450
The proof is in the pudding.
Also I'm an agnostic atheist, but I just don't see the logic in your position and prejudice towards Islam or god.
>>8049482
Peace be upon you brother. Islam literally means with peace.
Go with God.
>>8049519
>Islam literally means with peace
It literally means submission.
>>8049516
>but I just don't see the logic in your position and prejudice towards Islam
Some people, for some weird reason, takes umbrage with a religion whose chief figure was a genocidal warmonger who owned slaves, and raped his slaves, and forced himself upon children. A religion whose adherents see this horrible psychopath as a great man and someone to emulate.
The worst thing Jesus ever did was get a little heated with some moneygrubbing gypsies hawking trinkets in a temple but "agnostic atheists" treat these two religions as equal at best or Christianity as the greater evil at worst.
>>8049528
Actually it means both, and wholeness and safety.
You haven't a clue what Mohammad was actually like, and it's irrelevant and Muslims conceptions differ from yours. Look at what Muslims actually do, just regular people living regular lives.
The rest of what you said is a stawman.
>>8049547
"Mohammad was a verified warmonger"
>a-actually you have no idea!
>plus it's irrelevant!
>also not everyone t-thinks so!!
Ayy
>Look at what Muslims actually do
Ok
>>8039219
God damn it Wolfe
>>8049206
>So I'm sure you have no problem being harmed by others?
how does this follow at all from what I said
you are literally starting with the golden rule as your assumed axiom and getting angry when others don't accept it
examine your ideology
>>8049614
Equivocation.
Answer the question. My axiom isn't even the golden rule, that's a logical outcome of certain self evident truths, like the nature and experience of suffering.
>>8049646
>that's a logical outcome of certain self evident truths, like the nature and experience of suffering.
no it's not, it's just you assuming that since someone would agree to "harming others =/= not good" that they must then agree to "others harming you =/= not good", and you assuming that this is the "logical outcome of the nature and experience of suffering" (lmao)
again, examine your ideology
>>8049659
That's self evident to any mature thinker. You yourself ought to examine your ideology friendo.
My guess is, you've never known true suffering, and thus have difficulty grasping this essential truth, but this realization might come with maturity, right now you are in the darkness.
Examine your ideology.
>>8039219
fbi pls go
4chan is the website of peace
Islam and christianity are opposed to traditionalism.
>>8041057
Not the guy you're replying to, but I think he had a really clever and cogent retort and you didn't really read it well. Or you're just fucking dumb. You type like someone who probably thinks drug experimentation "expands your mind" and you believe still in Jungian theory to a T.
Please don't. You're what's wrong with the world.
>>8049547
M80. The religion doesn't work with modernity nor Western values. Have you ever studied Averroes or Al Abn?
>>8039236
I would say Slavoj Žižek and Evola is the kid who would wear a suit to high school and use a briefcase
>>8049673
>That's self evident to any mature thinker
no it's not, it's your personal moral and ethical preference
the existence of suffering in no way implies that I am obliged to concern myself with the suffering of others, nor does your concern for the suffering of others make you safe from others who don't share your moral sanctimony
that we're even having this conversation demonstrates that you're a chucklehead who doesn't understand how the world works
>>8049693
>muh enligthment values
>muh modernity
fuck, the western right is really cucked. I might as well just convert to Islam
>>8049688
Stay mad Monsieur Buttblaste.
>>8049693
Doesn't work? Have you ever actually just sat down and truly spoken with a Muslim? You seem to speak on things which you know nothing of. What does t mean for a religion to work?
>>8049698
Seems like you don't actually know what suffering is. I can't tell you matey,you'll just have to experience it yourself, and once you do then you will understand what I meant.
The Dao that can be spoken, is not the eternal Dao.
>>8049731
>have you ever sat down and spoken with a Muslim
Bro you just got Taqiyya'ed. Can't take anything they say at face value. Lying to protect Islam is a sacred obligation
>>8049721
Islam is just as cucked and modern.
The only thing they do right is to stay violent and have lots of kids.
>>8049731
Yeah, I have. They were the version of a bad Catholic in the Islamic. He knows for a fact that Islam is literally bullshit and it needs to be reformed. The faith has never had a Martin Luther or Immanuel Kant or Descartes. Averroes was literally the closest to a Kant, but once again, the faith was never divided and split due to discourse and contest to the interpretation, it was split by tribal quarrels. Also, why does it matter if I talk to a Muslim? Anecdotes are bullshit, and I completely unraveled your argument by showing you one that happened to me that completely destroyed your argument.
>>8049721
I'm not saying I like modernity or Western thought, but shit, if you want a society based around them, you cannot have a sizable minority who eschews them and expect a cohesive society. Basic Putnam, senpai.
>>8049735
You're too biased to seen the truth. You don't even see the inidivudal, you only see your prejudice. You won't find truth or peace this way.
>>8049746
In your dreams sonny. Talk to more Muslims, get a sense of what it actually MEANS to practice Islam. See beyond your prejudice.
Personal experience shouldn't be dismissed. As far as modernity goes, your critique Islam because it's incompatible, and yet modernity is incompatible with life itself. Our present system is destroying the very thing upon which our system depends, the natural world.
Thus even if it were incompatible with modernitt, that's not a sound argument against it, in fact that's probably a sign it has something right.
>>8049773
Is there an endless reservoir of taqiyya you're allowed to draw from or is it sinful if you exceed a yearly allotment of it.
>>8049796
No idea, but the idea is eminently a human one. To avoid persecution and oppression you can feign beliefs. Literally all humans do this, regardless Of religion.
Hell, you'd probably repent all your edgy 4chan values in a millisecond of torture.
>>8049809
>but the idea is eminently a human one
But Islam codifies it as a good thing, a necessary tool in order to deceive and conquer the kuffar, whereas it was presented as shameful for Peter to deny Jesus Christ three times.
>>8049814
>Every time a Muslim says something I don't believe it's muh takyons
I don't even like Islam and I still think this is a dumb meme
>>8049814
Ok, so three strikes and your out, versus use at your own discretion. The latter sounds more forgiving, and yet Chritianity is the religion of forgiveness.
Matey, matey, matey....
>>8049851
>Ok, so three strikes and your out
Peter kind of went on after that episode to be a little involved in Christianity
>>8041059
It's not that i disagree, it's just that you are objectively wrong.
Definitely as far as the foreign recruits are concerned, but even for the Iraqi and Syrian recruits.
You used a hyperbole to describe something that is, by definition, wrong.
In other words, go away, you cunt.
>>8049750
What if I don't want such society? Imo we should hasten the end times with all out war if necessary. The current situation in the near east matches with astounding precision the eschatologies of multiple major religions. The day of Armageddon is near, the forces of the antichrist will face the faithful in one final battle. We should not fear it but we should long for it, like True Christians
>>8049773
>Our present system is destroying the very thing upon which our system depends, the natural world.
wew lad what is transhumanism
>>8039230
>radical Traditionalist revolt against modernity
>21st century Rockstars badass tribal warriors
When were a union of men, each who couldn't get laid, something to look up to?
>>8040031
>'true to yourself' (in the metaphysical sense)
What does this mean? Yourself in the metaphysical sense
>>8039275
>Dugin said the end goal of his philosophy is to bring about the end of the world
Are we living in a JRPG?
>>8050367
Bringing about the end of the world is a very hip idea these days. ISIS and Nick Land for example. The 21st century's barely started and you know it's gonna be lots of fun
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/EKYfiqc.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>8050378
Nyx is coming, isn't he?
I jokingly talked with my brother that 2006 was some really seminal year for stupid internet shit (Haruhi, Phoenix Wright, /b/ in full force), and that the meme magic is metastasizing 10 years after the fact.
People always put criminals on a pedestal. Seen it happen a bunch of times and still have no idea why people do it besides escapism
>>8050378
Speak for yourself, bargain bin escatologist!
Dao is without beginning nor end.
>>8045734
>>8045753
Hitler didn't like christianism mate, he tolerated it because he knew it was the easier thing to do, but do you honestly believe that Hitler would like a judeo-christian religion?
I can't even ask you if the first time you've ever been to /lit/ was this thread, because it's literally created after a neopagan, fascist author.
>>8047405
fascism is the culmination of modernism, m87
>>8050392
The world is turning into an Ebin sci-fi dystopia, it's clearer in east Asia or the post-soviet sphere( a meme wonderland if there ever was one, their leadership appears to be comprised of IRL bond supervillains ) America's catching up fast, seriously a 4th order simulation could become our next president, while SV is teeming with would be cyberpunk megacorps
>>8049731
Holy shit I bet you listen to fucking Phish while smoking from a fucking bong and playing fucking hackey sack, you new age piece of fucking shit. You think you're smart enough to be enlightened without actually engaging in any meaningful way with any sort of faith or religion. You think you're a fucking buddah for reading Kerouac or some shit. You actually lecture your mom on the cruelty of meat despite the fact you can't fucking fry an egg.
People like you are the reason I stopped participating in local political groups altogether and just stay mad at home reading Debord non stop, you fucking abortion.
>>8050048
It means 'you' without anything derived from the 'other'.
Think about your social life; people tailor their behaviour in relation to what others might think of them, all the time. Not simply their behaviour, but their actions/beliefs/etc. What are 'you', irrespective of the 'other'?
Consider this: is there such a thing as 'you', or are you entirely the product of your environment? Are you nothing more than a collage of other peoples thoughts/words/deeds and experiences involving other people?
You may think so, perhaps; but consider that infinite regression in this regard is impossible. Every thought/etc was once original; and so being metaphysically 'true to yourself' involves shedding everything that has no basis in yourself, thus leaving behind the quintessential 'you'.
>>8050572
It seems hard to think of myself in that way, like what is the 'original me'.
Thanks anyway though.
>>8050509
Hoohoo matey, your anger is palpable. Keep it up, I enjoy raising your blood pressure through superior intellect.
Huehuehue
>>8049851
Forgiving for what?
It's not like taqiyya is lying to protect yourself from persecution. It's lying in pursuit of jihad, in the original sense of jihad, the jihad that basically every Muslim scholar born before 1900 saw it, as the conquest of all non-Muslim lands and the forced conversion or enslavement of all non-Muslims.
>>8050743
Well that's just not reality man, I don't know what the fuck you read.
Also, it's specifically to avoid persecution, so you simply lie about being a Muslim. That's basically it dude. Don't ads your own ideas into it, do some research.
>>8050743
This. Every last Muslim is an ISIS sleeper agent awaiting the caliph's orders to commence Operation White Genocide
>>8041059
No they really weren't. What the hell is your impression of people that live in the middle east jesus christ..get out of your house
>>8050761
You want me to list them? These guys wrote their shit down, you can look it up and see where dozens of foundational Islamic scholars describe Jihad exclusively in terms of killing nonbelievers and taking their lands.
>>8050800
>Every last Muslim is an ISIS sleeper agent awaiting the caliph's orders to commence Operation White Genocide
Maybe not, but when it comes to the showdown they will stand with their fellow Muslims over the decadent western infidels - in permissiveness if not participation.
>>8050841
There was recently a collection of literary all the top Imams and Islam scholars who wrote a massive report damming ISIS and showing that Islam is about peace. It's a fundamental tenet in the religion, NOT to be an aggressor, look up the report, it goes into significant detail and anaylsis.
It's literally the Jedi code, never attack, only defend.
>>8050489
My brother suggests a good bit of the alt-right is RT/KGB shills, so political discourse is already trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.
>>8050894
The Saudis are practically indistinguishable from ISIS in their notions of crime and punishment so it's kinda hypocritical. Islam is not the 'religion of peace', term made up, mind you by a Bush speechwriter intent on getting Americans pumped up to bomb the Arabs. But neither is it the monolithic force of pure evil /pol/ paints it as. They are tribalists who demonise their enemies, they equivocate several different and often opposing groups as though they were all the same thing. Their Muslims are totally committed to an inhuman level, much like the Jews in antissemitic conspiracies
>>8050894
>all the top imams and islam scholars
>basically every Muslim scholar born before 1900
Do you see where we're getting mixed up here?
Also I guess they were defending themselves when they invaded Spain right? Defended themselves all the way up into France before that awful Charles Martel attacked them and kept them from defending all of Europe.
Or Babur the Timurid's defense of India. He was called Defender of the Faith after all.
Modern scholars can say what they want, and who knows, maybe they're "right," as "right" as you can be about a medieval book's "true meaning" but that doesn't change that basically everyone preceding them interpreted it a certain way and that interpretation set up the essential course of Islam's historical relationship with the rest of the world.
>>8045770
Capitalism?
>>8050894
>and showing that Islam is about peace
Someone remind me again how large a % of Muslims believe all homosexuals should be beheaded, how many believe hitting their wives is alright, and whatever else that research survey something showed. I'm glad not all politicians are as Swedish as this dumbass is.
>>8050967
There's a certain liberal tendency to promote narratives that reflect their multicultural values ie convvivencia in Spain, but instead of seeking a nuanced understanding of history right wingers fall back on ridiculous self-aggrandizing myths about the clash of civilizations. The Deus Vult fetish being merely the most glaring example. 1500 years of really complex history get reduced to an ebin battle between muh glorious Christian white race and the evil mahometan hordes. That's a shame, really.
>>8050572
I (the guy you responded to) understand nothing of the last sentence.
Btw. I read Stirner but I'm interested in which way you may imply his creative nothing relates to what you say.
>>8041081
This
The Qran is full of contradictions
>>8050894
>le jedi code
further proof that you're a teenager with retarded ideas
stop posting, you've shat up the thread enough with your dao crap and your denial of reality
>>8041081
Muh clash of civilizations. The conquest of Spain was gradual, involving shifting alliances between Christian and Muslim kingdoms.The Reconquista was later mythologized as part of a nascent Spanish nationalism. You are painting 'Islam' as a monolithic entity that has always been at war with 'the west'. This only makes sense if you totally ignore factors like the Shia-Sunni conflict (they hate each other more than they do the west), the Cold War, Arab nationalism etc.
>>8051203
>You are painting 'Islam' as a monolithic entity that has always been at war with 'the west'.
It's a monolithic entity that holds both the uncleanliness of infidels and the justification of violence against them as core tenets.
>>8051203
Islam has been at war with literally everyone, including itself. They are lousy soldiers and awful citizens, clannish and tribal to a fault, and the tribal clannishness itself wouldn't be an issue if the Middle Eastern genome wasn't bred specifically to lose
take your fanboyism somewhere else, preferably on a bus to the desert so you can join up with the rest of the sexless betas
>>8051218
What's the Syrian Civil War, then? Mostly Muslims killing other Muslims sometimes in alliance with Christians and other infidels.Global geopolitics mostly follow the Sunni/Shia divide rather than the simplistic clash of civilizations model
>>8051255
>Global geopolitics mostly follow the Sunni/Shia divide rather than the simplistic clash of civilizations model
I don't care about the Middle East. It could burn from Turkey to Arabia and who would care. I look to Europe where it's open season on infidel land, women, children, money, and their very demographic future.
>>8051267
>I don't care about (Place muslims are killing other muslims all the time)
>I look to (place muslims sometimes kill westerners before being shot by the police)
Terrorism and mass shootings are statistically uncommon. People only make a big deal about them because they are exciting and dramatic. You're more likely to be murdered or raped by a member of your own race (or just die of cancer/old age) under circumstances that will not make international headlines.
>>8050967
And yet in praxis, much like most Christianity, and infaxt much like most humans living today, they are primarily non violent people. Humans will do violence regardless of faith if there is a cause.
To assume ISIS is primarily doing violence because of Islam is not to understand the causes of ISIS. Foreign invasion, the killings of THOUSANDS OF children and women by those invaders, and a power vacuum breeds that kind of extremism. We created ISIS not Islam.
>>8051052
And a large percentage of Christians hold equal extreme views against gays, atheists ,Muslims, aborters, etc. But the actual question is, DO THEY ACT VIOLENTLY towards those people. You hold pretty negtive views of Islam, but the real question is, will you attack a Muslim for no reason other than their religion. Those kinds of people, on both sides of the question are insane, and make up a minority , a small one, within the group.
Gays are routinely killed, harrassed, and imprisoned in Russia, a Christian country. So it's not the religion itself which breeds the hatred but something else.
In America the south is very hateful of gays, not so much the north. Yet we are supposedly Christian.
>>8051189
Jedi code is a good code, maybe you're too stupid to realize that.
>>8051201
Stay edgy, Mr. Edgerton.
>>8051738
>In America the south is very hateful of gays
Bit of a difference between wanting to set some ground rules in public bathrooms and the Iranians letting them dangle from construction cranes.
>>8051738
>To assume ISIS is primarily doing violence because of Islam is not to understand the causes of ISIS. Foreign invasion, the killings of THOUSANDS OF children and women by those invaders, and a power vacuum breeds that kind of extremism. We created ISIS not Islam.
true
after the west ravaged iraq 3 times i think it's hypocritical to wonder why the people there join the anti-west movement so readily
>Gays are routinely killed, harrassed, and imprisoned in Russia, a Christian country.
dude, it was decriminalized there in 1993
>>8051748
Not really, peoppe still continue to murder gay people in America, and assault them. Must be the old Christian values.
>>8051795
Have you paid attention recently to its criminalization? Also the law is one thing, culture and enforcement another. Recently you cannot openly be gay LEGALLY, and the culture equates being gay as the same with pedophilia to demonize them.
Thank you for agreeing with my other point.
>>8051821
>Have you paid attention recently to its criminalization? Also the law is one thing, culture and enforcement another. Recently you cannot openly be gay LEGALLY, and the culture equates being gay as the same with pedophilia to demonize them.
>Thank you for agreeing with my other point.
what
certainly you can be openly gay in russia legally, plenty of people do it
now, you will likely receive a lot of harassment but it's a different matter
the famous russian 'anti-gay' law which was so much discussed before the sochi olympics forbids 'gay propaganda to minors' so as long as you don't try to advertise the gay way of life to the minors you are legally safe; it's also the grounds why gay parades usually don't get the legal permission to be held
>>8052352
And you think that's ok? A large majority of people think homosexuality is wrong, a attacks and harassment are common. That's a sick culture, and it's Christian.
That was my only point, to blame Islam for homophobia and violence towards gays, misses the bigger picture. It might be related to religion somehow, but also economics, poverty, opportunity ,etc.
Hateful people themselves usually are on the receiving end of some kind of hatred or injustice themselves.
