I've tried Buddhism and decided it sucks.
Which philosophy is anti-Buddhism?
You didn't try shit
what did you read?
Nietzsche is pretty far from Buddhism
DMT and Soul of Prophecy has a section about the author's change from Mahayana Buddhism to Judaism. He more or less says that his monastery advocated for the worship of idols, past bodhisattvas, says he wanted to study the source, pray to the source instead.
Now turning your back on two decades of philosophical thought and practice doesn't just come out of the blue. He was also disappointed by his findings during his dmt experiments back in the early 90's. Said he expected to find something akin to nirvana but found that the Jewish bible and their prophets mirrored the dmt state more than the Buddhist cosmology did.
But I'd personally suggest you walk the middle path. Read Ego and Archetype by Edinger, read The Hero with a Thousand Faces, The Grail Legend by Jung and Von Franz, read Erich Fromm and David Tacey. These people have mapped an intersection of psyche and mythology.
But if you do not put in the time you will become a jack of all trades and the master of none because each book is a portal to thousands of authors.
Its a noble quest though and you'll see the connections between the east and the west. You'll see this search for god as a search of ego and Self. The gods of old will show themselves to be the same innate, higher personality within man's mind.
>>7935515
>Said he expected to find something akin to nirvana but found that the Jewish bible and their prophets mirrored the dmt state more than the Buddhist cosmology did.
>expecting your haphazard jumps into altered states will grant you the same knowledge as men utterly dedicated to a tradition that you barely understand by virtue of shoddy translation and generations of dilution
Just fucking how
>>7935465
hedonism is the opposite of the dhamma
>Is hedonism a "valid" philosophy as long as the person practicing it has enough foresight?
the dhamma is about the failure of hedonism. what is hedonism ?
-to have pleasures
-to have pains
-to fancy pleasures
-to hate pains
- fancy pleasures and hate pains to the point of taking them seriously, in saying that they matter.
because you take seriously what you feel, your deliriums form your mind and your consciousness. you choose to care about all this, about what you think and feel, to the point that you choose to identify with all this.
once you understand that, in order to be happy, there is no point in clinging to your desires which are always fading, and uncontrollable, once you understand that no matter your behavior, there will never ever be a fix to your discomfort nor to your boredom, you dive deeper and deeper into a state of of stillness which installs equanimity+compassion (these words are the usual words describing the states).
for people saying that hedonism is relevant,
>life=what you feel+what you think+what you expect from your desires from what you feel and think
therefore,
>grade your desires
and
>non acting on your favorite desires = non life = death
hedonism is not an effective doctrine to be happy. Hedonists believe that you literally die if you ''do not think nor do feel''. They have faith that 'no moving' is death.
of course, doing the opposite brings you a better life:
>perpetual evanescence and lack of control of what you think and feel, therefore cannot be taken seriously (to be happy) => stay still towards what you think and feel.
Once you try to reach stillness, you are more equanimous and benevolent.
>>7935530
I'm right with you breh. I think that's the point. The outsiders have latched onto Buddhism, well, zen Buddhism with fervid strength. Same as daoism and Hinduism. And that makes me scratch my head. I hear that Taoism alone has something close to five hundred, maybe five thousand books in the canon. Yet we stop at the dao de ching.
I don't know, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth seeing modern Buddhists. Just as big headed as any other crowd. But since they are modern they also subscribe to the cult of science denouncing all forms of philosophy while claiming that they will save humanity through the work of science while not being actual scientists themselves.
I have the panacea. We are the chosen few. We will save mankind. It is you who are the problem here not us.
That could be said by just about any cult, science, political, or religious.
And when you strike that nerve in the secularized Buddhist you wake that delusional attached passion that they should, by virtue of their religion, have extinguished.
This turned into a rant. Point is I hate Buddhists now too. Well, "Buddhists"
>>7935465
I wish we had a term for the sensation of recognizing the vast oceans of truth that reside in all the intellectual traditions... indigo pill or some such thing? I don't know, you can't say these things in memes. The problem with Buddhism is that it's right. It is the ossified wisdom of thousands of years of spiritual, philosophical and psychological genius.
That's a problem because so is Islam, and so is western literature, and so is Christianity, all brimming with more brilliant ideas and language than any of us could hope to be the source of...
All the world's misery is made of men and women floating around without a link to those sources of genius, those sparkling founts of greatest human wisdom... all our life is finding some bit of it to drink.
>>7935544
Edinger talks about the new myth for modern man in Creation of Consciousness. He says it will be a coming together of streams. Not a new religion seeking power. Not a new one-sidedness but a compassionate view of the inner dialogue of ego and Self.
And I'm dumb and optimistic enough to believe the dead bastard.
>>7935563
It was a big step for me to realize that so much of the difference between Chinese and Indian Buddhism has to do with differences between Chinese (ideogrammatic, sparse, highly interpretable) and Sanskrit (Indo European and highly inflected, like Latin or Greek).
That analogy has held very strongly in my mind. It's not that Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism are making different claims. They are speaking in different worlds of language (literally) and symbolic arrangements. There is no one-to-one correspondence between their various terminologies and conclusions. On the surface they easily generate English phrases that contradict.
Yet each one exists precisely because some group of spectacularly brilliant individuals (Muhammad, Lao Tzu, Sakyamuni Buddha, Jesus Christ etc.) developed systems of ideas that worked brilliantly at answering the deepest levels of human inquiry.
The problem is pretty serious: people literally think these vast traditions, each of which has literally millions of pages of text, thousands of years of practice and millions of followers, all with their own unfathomable depths, is simply "stupid, not worth trying, stone age" etc.
It's just astonishing how much bath water is being tossed out with so many babies, all of which babies are really so many grievances about moral autonomy (I will make my own rules for myself, thank you very much) disguised as concerns for scientific consistency (Yeah but that like, didn't actually happen so, why bother?).
I am so glad I was raised Catholic so I didn't have to put up with any of this soul-searching bullshit. I was already in the greatest religion of them all, and even Catholics who lapse in the faith are more intelligent and carry themselves better than any other non-believers in the world.
>>7935595
People have grown cynical and distrustful of religion given the history, but true enough alot of bathwater is being thrown out also due to peoples laziness and desire for instant gratification. In any tradition the deepest levels of knowledge and attainment could only be granted by the most deepest and sober commitment, nothing was given for free.
>>7935617
amen brother. it is nice to hear that someone else is getting similar feels.
good luck
>>7935491
I read Siddhartha and called it a day
>>7935465
What did you actually do when you "tried it"
>>7935595
blame nietzshe
>>7935695
I'm jealous, actually. They have a point. I suffered many years to end up here and now. I found guidance through fucking up. I found words from smart mother fuckers by accident. And it hooked me. I found revelation in dreams and mushrooms. Learned to meditate because I refused medical assistance in the drunk tank. With burning tears I sat in silence with the cold fan on my face. Learned of reincarnation by thinking of the animals I hunted. Grew empathetic with the years.
If I had a system in place that would have facilitated this growth I could have saved a lot of time.
Its like that story of the monk and the boat. The monk hones his skills so he can cross the water to meet the Buddha. When he arrives and tells of his path the Buddha asks him why he didn't just take the boat.
But I don't think that anon's given faith has dissolved his old self like rituals of the past. But I could be wrong. Plus he knows what to pray to when the cancer spreads and brings about immense pain. He has his saints to guide him through psychosis and the night sea voyage.
We are left to find our deities.
>>7935647
Well you didn't try Buddhism then.
>>7935907
That wasn't me. OP here. How I tried Buddhism:
-read Buddhist literature (Dhamapadda, various Buddhist authors)
-read and memorized all the "lists" (Eightfold Path, 5 Precepts, Triple Gem, 4 Noble Truths)
-listened to various Buddhist monks
-Meditated
-Went to a Zen Buddhist center
As near as I can tell, it is willful self-lobotomy combined with the false hatelove of any religion.
-I accept, acknowledge, and sympathize with reality(samsara), but I want to escape it and think it is pointless bullshit and I am training myself to not care about it
NO U DON'T U JUST DON'T GET IT GOD IS THE SON IS THE HOLY GHOST BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME REPEAT THE KOAN UNTIL YOU SHUT UP
All the same rubbish.
>inb4 someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about
Yeah, stay stuck in the woowoo trap, kiddos. I'm figured out the scam and am moving onto something that makes sense.
>>7935926
I think that's a neat parallel that is often overlooked. This life is suffering and I want to escape. Hard to tell whether a Buddhist said that or if it was a fundamentalist christian. It is the end times, through god we will escape to the heavens.
Jung and The New Age by David Tacey. Cool book. He critiques the new age, its attraction to exotic philosophies, and the Jung worshippers but does so while including the positive messages of the east and the west.
His criticism of the modern american Buddhists is they want to escape like a child. He says that the real quest for wholeness involves suffering. That you have to hurt and carry these moods and pains in order experience life fully.
So its Buddhism's opposite in that regard.
Books a bit pricey though.
>>7935789
I think you and others might find value in the articles here: http://toltec-foundation.org/articles/articleBreakingBondage.asp
My only warning is to let any previous notions fall aside if you're aware of the term "Toltec" in context of any spiritual teachings. Theun's approach is very different to most other authors you'd find claiming the brand, and much more involved.
>>7935470
this
maybe taoism op.
>>7935926
>I am training myself to not care about it
Yeah, you didn't understand shit.
>>7936245
I predicted it. It happened.
Buddhism, folks.
I want to be flogged and pegged so so much
>>7935465
Maybe you could try stoicism. It's not anti-Buddhism though, I think.
>>7935926
>Yeah, stay stuck in the woowoo trap, kiddos. I'm figured out the scam and am moving onto something that makes sense.
then move on and stop bitching about being an heodnist
>>7935926
>moving on to something that makes sense
Call me when you find something,
ANYTHING that can't be picked apart as innately flawed.
>>7936339
Willful childlike innocence. I am becoming a furry.
>>7936249
>Religion based around mindfulness and the reduction of suffering.
>Not caring about it.
You didn't understand shit.
>>7936385
I see you've swallowed Westernized meme Buddhism.
If you actually get into it, it's about achieving nibbana through self-lobotomy.
>>7936388
>achieving nibbana through self-lobotomy
And that is bad how?
>>7936395
Well, if you don't buy into Buddhist cosmology (which is pretty fucking easy to not buy into if you read the Dhammapada and read about spirits swimming in ghee and devas and extradimensional sky palaces), then you don't buy into reincarnation/samsara, and then you're wasting your life on something pointless.
>>7936398
What does that have to do with being lobotomized?
>>7936416
Instead of interacting with your environment, you train yourself to say "ah hah! I am having but a transient sensation, like all other sensations. all is alike" and then you vegetate.
Daily reminder to not fall for the dry-vipassana meme, and to practice jhana instead.
>>7936423
>"ah hah! I am having but a transient sensation, like all other sensations. all is alike"
And is that wrong?
>>7935491
Seconded.
Genealogy of Morals friend.
Kazantzakis' Zorba the Greek snapped me out of Buddhism.
>>7936439
If you want to have what's typically considered a full human experience, then yes.
You're dismissing pretty much 95% of what you can explore as a human with a handwave.
>>7936461
>You're dismissing pretty much 95% of what you can explore as a human with a handwave.
Such as?
>>7936471
Chatting with CleverBot for entertainment purposes, for example.
>>7936477
How is that not transient?
>>7936516
I'm aware Buddhism is "correct," but so is "kill yourself because you will die anyway." If you don't buy into the metaphysics of Buddhism, there's no reason not to just suicide instead.
Buddhism is essentially life-denying and pessimistic. In fact, it's turbo pessimism, because life sucks, death isn't an escape, and the way to salvation is brutally difficult, not just a "sabe me jebus" prayer.
>>7936525
So you're looking for a reason to live?
>>7936534
http://playdosgamesonline.com/dr-sbaitso.html
>>7936537
Are you or are you not?
Do simple questions bother you that much? Is baby gonna cry?
>>7936576
Please direct further questions to my personal assistant.
Let me know what he answers.
http://playdosgamesonline.com/dr-sbaitso.html
>>7935926
>NO U DON'T U JUST DON'T GET IT GOD IS THE SON IS THE HOLY GHOST BUT THEY ARE NOT THE SAME REPEAT THE KOAN UNTIL YOU SHUT UP
kek
>>7935465
The based antiguru U.G.
><aking love is war; cause-and-effect is the shibboleth of confused minds; yoga and health foods destroy the body; the body and not the soul is immortal; there is no communism in Russia, no freedom in America, and no spirituality in India; service to mankind is utter selfishness; Jesus was another misguided Jew; and the Buddha was a crackpot; mutual terror, not love, will save mankind; attending church and going to the bar for a drink are identical; there is nothing inside you but fear; communication is impossible between human beings; God, Love, Happiness, the unconscious, death, reincarnation and the soul are non-existent figments of our rich imagination; Freud is the fraud of the 20th century, while J. Krishnamurti is its greatest phoney.
>>7935465
>Which philosophy is anti-Buddhism?
Congratulations, you've decided to become a feminist.
You don't "try" Buddhism....
I'd recommend reading Robert Anton Wilson's books
Prometheus Rising
and
Cosmic Trigger
"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOay3StbNNE
>>7938698
I'd enlighten her womb's gloom.
>>7938691
Then how do you decide to follow buddhism?
>>7938698
What the drinker drinks, the eater eats.
>>7939091
What the eater eats, the pooper poops.
>>7938633
damn, this dude goes hard. What is his deal?
>>7936525
>there's no reason not to just suicide instead.
outside some body pains that the mind accepts (which means after nibbana), suicide is always about hedonism which is the opposite of buddhism.
>>7935608
greatest religion, kek. you just had bullshit spoonfed to you like all other catholics. Whether that helped you or not is a matter of what life throws at you + your mental fortitude, faggot
>>7935743
blame him for what? he diagnosed this death of faith years ago
y-you don't think he was a nihilist do you?
>>7939144
the no deal deal
Is this a good introduction?
>>7940787
Indian Buddhist Philosophy by Carpenter is a very good introduction to the topic. I'm not familiar with the book you've posted.
Buddhism is extremely vast, there are huge language barriers (everything is originally argued in Sanskrit/Pali or Chinese, and these languages are very distinct from English) and there are cultural barriers as well (the notion of karma, the soteriological template of the classical Indian worldview, the seemingly magical occurance of nirvana etc.)
This means you have to spend an immense amount of time getting yourself over these barriers. The best thing I can advise is setting aside concerns about whether you agree or not/find ideas valid or not and focus only on understanding itself.
What is called "Buddhism" in the west, in a very real sense, refers to an intellectual tradition bridging the Vedic/Brahmannic (which begins ca. 2000 BCE in India) and then enters the Classical Chinese (where it tangos with Confucianism and Taoism as it makes its way across East Asia). The literary tradition left behind by this massive spanning of time and culture is of comparable size to that of the West. Studying Buddhism is not studying a religion. It is studying an entire epoch of human thought. It is like studying "Westernism."
>>7935465
>living in the west
>buddhist
sorry, but western conceptions of 'practicing' buddhism are mere shadows of the actual religion
>>7939067
You don't try anything in Buddhism. For example, if you want to be calm, you don't try to be calm. Trying to be calm is not calmness. In order to be calm, you cannot desire to be calm either.
The reason a Buddhist appears to be calm is not because he is trying to become calm. Rather, the Buddhist is not trying to become anything. Because of not trying to become anything, the Buddhist appears calm. In reality, however, the Buddhist simple is, falling into a natural state of "being".
Try to be calm and you'll never be calm. Give up caring on whether or not your are calm or not, you'll probable be more at ease.
>>7940980
Very much this. The gets across the point that's always missed very well.
>>7940980
too alan watts brand zen for me senpai
>>7940980
Yeah this is complete nonsense. You know, actually reading the Tipitaka should be mandatory in order to have a say on anything Buddhism.
>>7941472
accesstoinsight.org let's you browse by topic even. So you can read all the juice ideas about non-self immediately for example.
>>7935465
Oh and to the OP. The lobotomy conception of Buddhism /has nothing/ to do with real Tipitaka Buddhism. In fact, the better your mind is in separating the qualia of existence the more likely it is that you will eventually experience Nirvana.
And don't forget that the Buddha claimed that for the "householder" enlightenment was very difficult. That was in a society where iphones,computers and cars didn't exist.. it's not going to be easier in this society...
Taoism is the master race of eastern philosophies. buddhism and hinduism are hipster-teir.
>>7935926
Zen Buddhists are frequently even more bullshit than other practitioners of Buddhism. Their riddles serve no purpose, and its connection to actual Buddhism is disputed. Its history is filled with decadence, political corruption, and even banditry. Not all Buddhists are the same, however. If one place isn't right for you, try another, if possible.
I will literally never read about Buddhism because Western 'followers' have destroyed any and all appeal.
Yes, 20 year old college student with ample free time, I'm sure you are truly at peace and more knowing than any Christian your age as your smug superiority (poorly veiled by a facade of non-judgmental carefree attitude) would suggest.
Western bhuddists give me nausea.
>>7942421
Pseudointellectuals who dismiss knowledge give me nausea.
>>7942421
>dismissing something because you don't like the fanclub
that's even worse than liking something because you like the fanclub
>>7936388
>le typing in Pali to look smart maymay
>>>/reddit/
>>7942743
Because the practice upsets you, I'll tell you what else I will never give a chance because the fans have ruined the appeal forever:
>anime
>dr. Who
>league of legends
>keto diets
>having a pet cat
>>7944240
> I can't like things because other people I don't like like things
Sign of a weak mind, enjoy being tossed about on the tempests of popular opinion all your life
>>7944251
Here are some more things I will literally never spend time on because of the fans and people I associate with each subject:
>game of thrones books
>star trek
>fitbit
>nuttella
>strip clubs
>ultramarathons
>>7944297
Why are you telling us this? We get it, you're kind of a dipshit.
>>7935465
Nietzsche is pretty much anti Buddhist, since he despises the weak (shades of the slaves again) nihilism at its core. To him the whole "world is bad, suffering, we need escape, nirvana" is simply bad.
>>7944300
A dipshit desperate for attention obviously.
>>7944300
Additionally
>nikes
>superhero movies
>comic books
>jeeps
>tao ling
>>7935465
Try Hinduism, although it has similarities.
Maybe, Christianity.
Either way, become a monk.
>>7944307
aharants do not commit suicide straight away.
>>7944307
>>7942421
>>7940980
>>7940960
>>7936525
Some people seem to be on the righy track and others seem to have a strange conception of what Buddhism actually entails.
I don't call myself a Buddhist, but I adhere to a lot of the ethics and oractices like meditation for some time. I also adhere to many other doctrines and principles, and sometimes I just fall into hedonism.
My idea of Buddhism is that it is NOT life denying, rather it is total life affirmation. To be completely aware of both our minds and the world around us. Not to attempt to hold back emotions like joy or sorrow but to feel them fully and not to grab them.
Meaning, you are more free to experience the heights of ecstacy. But you can also experience despair but since you do not ruminate into it, it will not hold you, whereas positive emotion is the more natural one to be in.
It's aims arent much different than Christianity in that you have a relationship of pure positive regard that enables actualization. Buddhism attempts to do this with a clear relationship to the self and world.
On Becoming a Person is not a Buddhist text, but speaks to what enables growth and there is a lot of overlap with Buddhism.
>>7935465
>I've tried Buddhism
What the fuck does that mean?
What is Buddhism even about? The appeal of non-being?
>>7945245
It's about how to not take responsibility for anything and pretend you are everything.
>>7945262
That's so vague it applies to every self-help book and major religion, ever.
>>7945265
Maybe self-help books are based on buddhaism
>>7945271
Every major religion thinks they are the source.
>>7945262
I think that can be achieved with materialism and some mental discipline.
>>7945277
That is correct and is a rewording of that previous post.
>>7945277
No, you cannot. Western materialism is fundamentally dependent on exploitation of both humans and nature.
When I said understanding I meant it. You understand the interconnectedness of all things and rationally determine that what is harmful to nature and people cannot be the Buddhist way. Compassion for AL life is a prime tenet.
Your simplification is intellectually disingenuous.
>>7945291
>You understand the interconnectedness of all thing
That's just a random idea.
>>7945291
Materialism, as in "I realise that everything of humans, life and such is an emergent phenomenon of how the basic elements of nature are interacting with each other, and while our current understanding of nature may not be complete or fundamental, its incompleteness most probably does not influence any of aforementioned phenomena"
>>7935595
I think you summized the underlying problem with new athiests. They disregard religion and spirituality for the wrong reasons(I dont believe in some magical sky fairy)
Now, religious people can get it just as wrong, too. Buddhist worshipping idols, Christians following Church before Faith, etc., but both groups commit the same mistake: they only ever touch upon the surface of the subject, never knowing that there is a profound and deeply wise coda of the human consciousness.
>>7941410
>>7941472
>>7941585
>>7942301
>>7945188
Zen Buddhism is pretty much Nihilism (as is Taoism). I'll post some works below so people can read it for themselves.
. . .
Ikkyu Quotes
Students, sit earnestly in zazen, and you will realize that everything born in this world is ultimately empty, including oneself and the original face of existence. All things indeed emerge out of emptiness. The original formlessness is the "Buddha," and all other similar terms -- Buddha-nature, Buddhahood, Buddha-mind, Awakened One, Patriarch, God -- are merely different express- ions for the same emptiness. Misunderstand this and you will end up in hell.
. . .
Toward dawn I dozed off, and in my dream I found myself surrounded by a group of skeletons . . . . One skeleton came over to me and said:
Memories
Flee and
Are no more.
All are empty dreams
Devoid of meaning.
Violate the reality of things
And babble about
"God" and "the Buddha"
And you will never find
the true Way.
. . .
I liked this skeleton . . . . He saw things clearly, just as they are. I lay there with the wind in the pines whispering in my ears and the autumn moonlight dancing across my face.
What is not a dream? Who will not end up as a skeleton? We appear as skeletons covered with skin -- male and female -- and lust after each other. When the breath expires, though, the skin ruptures, sex disappears, and there is no more high or low. Underneath the skin of the person we fondle and caress right now is nothing more than a set of bare bones. Think about it -- high and low, young and old, male and female, all are the same. Awaken to this one great matter and you will immediately comprehend the meaning of "unborn and undying."
. . .
My self of long ago,
In nature non-existent;
Nowhere to go when dead,
Nothing at all.
. . .
All the sins committed
In the Three Worlds
Will fade and disappear
Together with myself.
. . .
If at the end of our journey
There be no final resting place,
How can there be
A way to lose ourselves in?’
. . .
The mind,—
What shall we call it?
It is the sound of the breeze
That blows through the pines
In the Indian-ink picture.
. . .
Rain, hail, snow and ice
Are divided from one another;
But after they fall,
They are the same water
Of the stream in the valley.
. . .
Of Heaven or Hell we have
No recollection, no knowledge;
We must become what we were
Before we were born.
. . .
Do not take it to heart;
The real way
Is one, itself as it is;
There are not two, or three.
>>7945376
Zen Koans:
A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
. . .
Is That So?
The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.
A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.
This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.
In great anger the parent went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.
After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.
A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.
The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.
Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"
. . .
A Parable
Buddha told a parable in sutra:
A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.
Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!
. . .
Muddy Road
Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling.
Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.
"Come on, girl" said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.
Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzan, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"
"I left the girl there," said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"
>>7945371
>All atheists are the same.
No, I don't think so.
>>7945379
. . .
Reply To A Friend
By Ryokan
In stubborn stupidity, I live on alone
befriended by trees and herbs.
Too lazy to learn right from wrong,
I laugh at myself, ignoring others.
Lifting my bony shanks, I cross the stream,
a sack in my hand, blessed by spring weather.
Living thus, I want for nothing,
at peace with all the world.
Your finger points to the moon,
but the finger is blind until the moon appears.
What connection has moon and finger?
Are they separate objects or bound?
This is a question for beginners
wrapped in seas of ignorance.
Yet one who looks beyond metaphor
knows there is no finger; there is no moon.
. . .
The Monkey Is Reaching
by Hakuin
The monkey is reaching
For the moon in the water.
Until death overtakes him
He'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and
Disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine
With dazzling pureness.
. . .
Too Lazy To Be Ambitious
By Ryokan
Too lazy to be ambitious,
I let the world take care of itself.
Ten days' worth of rice in my bag;
a bundle of twigs by the fireplace.
Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment?
Listening to the night rain on my roof,
I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out.
. . .
I Watch People In The World
By Ryokan
I watch people in the world
Throw away their lives lusting after things,
Never able to satisfy their desires,
Falling into deeper despair
And torturing themselves.
Even if they get what they want
How long will they be able to enjoy it?
For one heavenly pleasure
They suffer ten torments of hell,
Binding themselves more firmly to the grindstone.
Such people are like monkeys
Frantically grasping for the moon in the water
And then falling into a whirlpool.
How endlessly those caught up in the floating world suffer.
Despite myself, I fret over them all night
And cannot staunch my flow of tears.
>>7945380
Where did I say that? I specificed "New Athiests" for a reason. I think that if someone does have the self-discipline and willpower to structure their own moral code without major contradictions, and they're happier for it, then by all means, go ahead.
>>7945449
Not all atheists disregard "spirituality".
Look up "implications".
>>7945454
I don't know why you're linking my posts in yours, because you're clearly not replying to what I'm saying.
I am not generalizing athiesm, only talking about a specific group that does disregard spirituality for such superfluous reasons, even if that sprcific group includes people that have never considered religion before in any capacity, contrarian or otherwise.
>>7945480
This is about ideas, not who said what.
Your struggle to make your point is telling in its weakness, whatever it may be.
>>7945480
What do you refer to as spirituality?
>>7945499
My point was agreeing with what the other poster said, that in modern society religion is increasingly seen as something obsolete and pointless. You however, don't seem to have any point but to nebulously defend yourself against a perceived attack.
>>7945507
The idea of metaphysics--the idea of self beyond physics.
>>7945510
Again, who said what.
You point is overall winning the argument, which is valueless in terms of content.
>>7945515
Okay, it was never an arguement in the first place, and for someone who says my point is in winning it, you seem to put a lot of worth into whether what I'm saying has value to you or not.
>>7945520
Thank you for starting to see my side.hashtag winning
>>7945511
Why would I need it if the whole English philosophy, concluding with the modern philosophy of science, pretty much solved that common problems where humans tend to imagine things, and made everything not imagined the scope of physics by its design?
>>7945537
Thought is included in metaphysics.
>>7945537
>the whole English philosophical tradition
self-fix
>>7945539
Thought is included in physics as well, as one of the solutions of related equations. So what's your point?
>>7945545
Thanks for agreeing.
If you're a philosopher you're a metaphyst.
>>7945528
Sure thing kid ;^)
>>7945291
youre adorable
>>7945515
lol your illiterate
>>7945996
>writing to an illiterate
Depends on whether it's early or late buddhism you're talking about.
For early Buddhism nirvana translated to the inevitable conclusion of continual examination/meditation, but was not a primary concern for Siddharta, who had to deal with people with hindu cosmological ways of thinking and found it useful to "talk in the same language and concerns" rather than to scare people away with more esoteric labels. It was a move away from institutional and highly ornamental forms of religion-- a toolkit/philosophy of dealing with the burdens the world & society place on you, so as to reach a state of feeling (en)lightenment (the natural/ideal) by unburdening/letting go of them. Later buddhism is more of a move back to what early buddhism was moving away from; which was institutional hierarchies, complex cosmologies & metaphysical speculations, rituals, priestly asceticism, and formulaic mantras/visualizations, and slavish worship of savior-figures rather than engaging in Socratic dialoguing with others and ones own various states of being while participating with the world. Nor was early buddhism very vegetarian, it simply recognized that each animal takes life on its own terms on a fractal basis in order to stay alive, and that's part of the natural condition of being alive; however, it's rather moronic to take more than is healthy, or engage in more sadism than is necessary-- considering that a symptom of inner hurt and thus a gimmick of false superiority. Good karma here being considered more as being able to enjoy and play well whatever cards dealt to you in potential future lifetimes, since there possibly is no judge who keeps a record. That is, IF there are other lifetimes, which early Buddha didn't consider fruitful to speculate upon in the first place. So later buddhism takes on this shape of being religion, with chan-buddhism being the chief exception of the various traditions still existing.
I think if you're against later buddhism, then modern philosophy and the early pali sutras in the corrective lens of early chan-buddhist insights is a good way to go. If against the earlier buddhism, all philosophy not influenced by buddhism, and all the jewish religions(christianity, islam-- maybe also darwinism and scientism) might do well.
Although, I'd say you cannot make a claim to have tried buddhism if you haven't made it a small daily practice for a few years at best; which, granted, is too difficult for most people of today as it requires you to let go of various thinking habits and to endure not acting and presuming on various states of joy and pain, etc. when being continually engaged in meditation. Because you tame or nullify all your previously buried or hidden personalities (depending on whether you find them useful), it may take a significant amount of time to see much of an effect. But the shift in mentality is rather profound and different. Despite my previous mental endeavours I can't say it has amounted to much compared to where I am now thanks to daily practice. Actually, I've more and more begun to see this is as just as necessary and essential part of life as sleeping and eating is-- and I notice Evolutionary Psychology affirms this as well in their studies in early human behavior. Read some of the works of John Cage and see what I mean.
Just actively engaging in whatever is popular culture also would do, which try to devalue all values except those of redundant consumption and status seeking in order to maintain a few empires. Zen and the mindfulness-approach tends to be both promoted and lambasted at the same time in modern popular culture along with everything else; since the ideal in zen is not to grasp at any values, therefore it also keeps people from acting out their fantasies and creating much trouble, while at the same time it becomes harder for practitioners to be caught up in all the baits of modern culture that seek to profit by using/raping them (when practiced the right way). Yet the authentic chan-tradition (i.e., not-4chan) does not attach much value to any label, and so cannot be that easily devalued by popular culture (when practiced the right way).
I consider the main practice to unburden yourself of useless and self-injuring habits in accordance with the natural biological limits of pre-historical times; and if there are more lifetimes nirvana will be the inevitable conclusion, but not until you're ready for it. It's an empowering view that recognizes that there is more to existence than any individual or group can understand, that can be encompassed by language-- that earth and all the hysteria is an unnoticeably small part of all potential realities-- that there are much better and much worse lifetimes ahead, and that we're all part of the same collective process by implication; but if there are no other lifetimes then you'll also just enjoy your nirvana-burger when you die. It's no significant difference from this standpoint, it'll just take a longer time if this end of life, so-called, is not the end of a seemingly separate individual process.
>>7935465
>>7945948
If you're going to attack Buddhism at least actually criticize it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
Get the basics, if you disagree address it. Or focus on the four noble truths first. What do they get wrong, just make sure you have a correct understanding, and you don't just attack a strawman.
>>7946465
I liked your post up until
>Just actively engaging in whatever is popular culture also would do, which try to devalue all values except those of redundant consumption and status seeking in order to maintain a few empires. Zen and the mindfulness-approach tends to be both promoted and lambasted at the same time in modern popular culture along with everything else; since the ideal in zen is not to grasp at any values, therefore it also keeps people from acting out their fantasies and creating much trouble, while at the same time it becomes harder for practitioners to be caught up in all the baits of modern culture that seek to profit by using/raping them (when practiced the right way). Yet the authentic chan-tradition (i.e., not-4chan) does not attach much value to any label, and so cannot be that easily devalued by popular culture (when practiced the right way).
What did you mean by this?
>>7938633
>no freedom in America
this is basically correct
>>7938633
>implying there is an empirical truth
>>7946451
>That is, IF there are other lifetimes, which early Buddha didn't consider fruitful to speculate upon in the first place.
do you have some sauce on this?
>>7947831
There is no way to document this.
This is clearly obvious, anon. Come on.
>>7947837
>>This is clearly obvious,
not to me
>>7945379
>The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
>"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Great Koan, BTFOs basically everyone in the west
>>7947917
That's fedora-tipping tier. "You wouldn't understand".
>>7947870
>verifying thoughts
okay.
>>7935608
>tfw catholic who lost faith
>>7947938
You don't actually don't understand that one is p re try clear.
hedonism probably
>>7945310
>That's just a random idea.
that's just a stupid lazy dismissal
everything is connected.
how can you deny this?
>>7947793
A koan for you to figure out yourself.
It wouldn't matter much if I encouraged engaging in popular culture or not. But I like to think it's a good edge to sharpen the blade of awareness on; seeing as the primary goal is to distract people from critical independent awareness and a comprehensive examination of it.
>>7947870
He didn't leave behind any written material himself, but you can get an idea from contrasting various early sutras from pali, sanskrit, and chinese to distinguish between core concepts and local cultural additions. In short, there are 3 marks, 4 truths, and an 8 fold path; rebirth is not mentioned in the scheme-- whereas alleviation of unnecessary suffering at the present moment is always the primary concern. All current traditions, with the exception of chan, has a strong emphasis on rebirth-- but all of them also have varyingly different and locally sourced interpretations for how it works; whereas chan would reply that concern with rebirth is in itself a source of suffering. Chan would be more closer to the practices of the original oral tradition than the scriptural rooted ones, which liked to create an appearance of authority by composing in an endless stream of overly elaborate sutras starting at ca. 300 years after Buddha. At the earliest time of being labelled chan they still operated on pretty much the same basic core concepts as other traditions, but also managing not to digress that much from the core of the early tradition.
As for retribution for negative acts, in early chan the view would be that an act, if considered negative, is negative for those who commit them and not their victims; it only becomes negative for the victim if they decide to play the same game, and make sacrifice of their strong authentic self for a more desperate, unstable, and weak self. Popular notions of karma leading to rebirth doesn't make much of a difference from this point of view, since the punishment is received in the act itself(based on what is the individual judgement of the observer, not to be confused with some hypothetical objective scale of truth underlying reality or human psychology); nevertheless, they still hold on to a Socratic approach regarding what the complete nature of death itself is.
>>7946000
typing actually lol
lit really is the slow board huh
>>7948371
I just did.
You're connected to me. Deal with it.
>>7947638
nobodys attacking happy man
reread my post
>>7935465
buddhism is shit only from a western viewpoint.
westerners tend to view buddhism as a product. "doing buddhism" is akin to "going on a vegan diet", they approach it with a hedonistic consumerist mindset, they tell their friends abotu it, "if i consume this i will obtain this".
i constantly see people who claim to go down the buddhism road but they still want to live the western consumerist lifestyle pretty much, it's purely vanity to them but they don't see it of course. it's like a band that people like, "oh you like talking heads? i do buddhism." they appropriate all the shallow external parts of a certain tradition not really bothering with the parts that don't show them externally as having changed.
it's not to say everyone who tries buddhism goes in with that in mind but for pretty much everyone on 4chan to practice buddhism given your upbringings is a lie that you can only keep up for so long.
