This is the most beautiful, thought provoking, and sensible paragraph you will ever read. Prove me wrong. Top tip: you can't.
>>7858262
>life is a X
stopped reading there
>>7858262
where is it from
>>7858262
what translation is this?
>>7858390
Martin Hammond
>>7858262
>This is in accordance with nature: and nothing harmufl is in accordance with nature
Sure, i will lie down on a forest and let a wild bear maul me to death.
Cool, but much too prosaic to be true or
>the most beautiful, thought provoking, and sensible paragraph you will ever read.
>>7858439
You don't understand what he means by nature. In stoicism, nature means something else. Your criticism is invalid.
>>7858375
Last paragraph from book 2.
>>7858485
>You don't understand what he means by nature. In stoicism, nature means something else.
Yes, i know what stoicism is, thank you.
>Your criticism is invalid.
Why? Cannot i criticize stoicism?
Being stoic does not net you a "get out of forum free" card
>>7858581
If you understand what "nature" means in the context of stoicism, then why is your argument based on a definition of nature that is not used by stoics? Clearly you were using nature in the every day sense.
>>7858262
>sensible
>atheistic undertones
Pick one
>>7858594
>stoics
>atheists
Pick 1.
I actually really, unironically like this paragraph. Stoicism and Taoism are truly dope philosophies.
>>7858590
Being mauled by a bear without resistance and accepting death without opposition are both instances of stoicism.
My analogy might have been (considerably) heavy-handed, but it is applicable just the same.
>>7858262
You're gay. Youre the shadow of what Longinus describes in the writer who is moved to bombast without real emotion, and, in feigning emotion, merely sounds laughable. You're not that, because you didn't write this, but in championing it you betray the same impropriety.
The same kind of bs you'll find on motivation websites, just slightly longer and slightly more nuanced. You'll feel a nice boost for a moment and then your life will continue exactly as before, without any noticeable change from this paragraph despite it being from a book intended to change how you live.
It is a nice combination of words that amount to nothing in practical real world terms.
>>7858626
It worked for the roman emperor who wrote the paragraph.
>>7858626
Yeah! Screw fiction, art, philosophy and subjectivity!
Screw reading too! Lets just wallow in our filth like the overgrown monkeys we are!
>>7858636
Not really, considering every second page he keeps having to remind himself not to care what people think and makes the same points over and over again. If anything that whole book proves that it doesn't work because he keeps having to pile on the same points over and over which he evidently can't stick to.
Most likely because he's just telling himself to be another way, the same kind of useless shit as telling yourself to be happy ad then doing it 100 times over each time you get sad.
An utterly hopeless book albeit not intended to be published
>>7858636
spoilers, the dude was psychologically swole already.
>>7858641
bizarre non-sequitur. Do what you like
>>7858626
it's impossible to know either way
>>7858641
angered op detected
>>7858625
True
>>7858643
Since he was keeping it as essentially a diary I feel like that was just a kind of strategy he used to cope with stress -- writing it all down to remind himself of it and ensure he stays in that mindset. The fact that he couldn't effortlessly live in stoic perfection doesn't detract from what he's saying at all.
>>7858643
imo it's more because it represented his different attempts to 'convince' people to be stoical asskickers like him (i imagine he presented the same arguments to people in conversation), and it never worked because he himself didn't get there by argumentation.
>>7858643
>he doesn't understand that's how philosophy is implemented
>>7858653
I'm op and that's not me.
>>7858675
Clearly never read spinoza
>>7858643
Philosophy isn't easy, little baby.
>>7858668
it's his diary, so no.
>>7858663
there's no strategy, or at least barely any. It's just 'be this way', again i'm not condemning being the way he desires to be, I'm saying it is useless in a similar way as telling yourself 'just be happy'. You can tell yourself it in a nice poetic way which might boost you for a bit but that's all it'll do. As evidenced by his entire diary and as is obvious upon reflection
>>7858679
I'm op not this guy. I was that other response.
>>7858689
affirmation is very powerful, anon
>>7858675
yeh, you clearly don't. You don't just tell yourself to be a certain way. You think of a process and ways to embody it. And that's taking the word philosophy extremely lightly as it should be in regards to Aurelius
>>7858688
relevance? i don't even know what you're trying to say except trying to offend me in some bizarre way
>>7858699
clearly not that poweful, again, as evidenced by the book. There is very little semblance of progress s in it. He still gets angry at himself for the old ways in the first part of the book right to the end
>>7858689
You missed my point.
What I was saying is that the writing of the Meditations, the actual task of it, WAS Marcus' strategy to achieve stoicism. Sitting down at the end of the day and telling himself these things was how he got himself into the mindset to carry them out. Like writing down a list of goals in order to accomplish them. This is the impression I got reading through it, at least.
>>7858689
The book was not written as a long argument to convince someone. You are drawing your criticisms from a position of ignorance.
Principles have to be strengthened and sharpened, like a sword. The Meditations are literally that, mediation and consolation.
This man was dealing with 1000 times the stress and pressure that you have ever dealt with or ever will deal with, you little edge lord.
>>7858713
That's called being human.
>>7858721
No, I got that point. And I responded by saying they clearly don't work. Because he doesn't just remind himself to be a certain way. He very often condemns himself for not being that way, especially with caring what others think. IF he has to keep condemning himself, it clearly doesn't work very well.
>>7858725
>Edgelord
Am i supposed 2 take u srsly or smth?
>>7858730
Your view of human nature and philosophy is unrealistic. Are you autistic by any chance?
>>7858692
Nice memeing
>>7858730
Self-criticism and reflection like that is just how a man improves. Have you come up with some flawless philosophy you live your life by that causes you to live a life devoid of any problems? The other anon was right, you sound like an autist.
>>7858703
>relevance? i don't even know what you're trying to say except trying to offend me in some bizarre way
Philosophy isn't easy. Living by principles isn't easy, otherwise we'd all be doing it. Being rational is hard work. And we are prone to falling off track because of the daily stresses and challenges of life.
And when you have a man like Aurelius, multiply that by 10, 000.
Philosophy takes practice. You have to live it and reaffirm it. Just like anything else in life. You have to do it again and again to become competent at it. I'm bewildered that you can't understand this.
>>7858729
No, that's called minimal progress. Maybe that's human to you.
>>7858725
No, you're plainly misreading me, i would imagine on purpose. At no point have I claimed it is a long argument trying to convince someone.
It is the same repetition of how to be over and over again with next to no method which is why it fails.
>>7858745
Yes, his view of the ideal human nature is unrealistic and untenable, which is why he has to keep condemning himself, I agree.
>>7858772
Yeh, reflection along with some sort of process, not just reminding yourself to be a certain way over and over. Again, it's like telling yourself to be happy over and over and giving good reasons as to why being happy is the ideal way to be. IT simply doesn't work. IT's obvious it doesn't work in the book as well.
Plus as a side not, as soon as people pull out the goto 4chan insults it's clear to see at least a nerve has been hit.
>>7858772
Marcus was just as human and infallible as the rest of us. That's why it's such a unique book and worth reading.
>>7858782
>Yeh, reflection along with some sort of process, not just reminding yourself to be a certain way over and over. Again, it's like telling yourself to be happy over and over and giving good reasons as to why being happy is the ideal way to be. IT simply doesn't work. IT's obvious it doesn't work in the book as well.
It's nothing like that at all. If you can't make the distinction after about 5 anon have just explained to you in detail, you're too stupid and I can't help you. I've wasted enough time.
>>7858776
You're using the word philosophy extremely loosely which is why I hadn't a clue what you were on about. You expect me to get what you just posted from your juvenile 'little baby' post? Even you won't stoop so low as to pretend that is realistic. Or maybe you will, I don't know.
As for the rest of the post, I've already addressed these points. Either you'll get it or you won't.
I'd add that it's a long time ago, they didn't know these tactics don't work, at least not very well. It's all they had. It doesn't stop it from being pretty poor.
>>7858790
appealling to crowd, zero content. getting desperate it seems, ok, goodbye
>>7858795
>I'd add that it's a long time ago, they didn't know these tactics don't work, at least not very well. It's all they had. It doesn't stop it from being pretty poor.
Those are the same exact tactics used by CBT and CBT works. This is not in contention. The data doeant lie. Stoicism was itself a huge influence on CBT.
How many more times do you want to be embarrassed?
>>7858782
I would not equate it to telling yourself to be happy. If anything, it's most similar to a depressive routinely writing down individual things that they appreciate and make them happy (which Marcus also actually does in Meditations). This would be an actual valid way to improve your outlook on life.
>>7858810
His criticism is basically: "it doesn't guarantee a 100% solution to the adversities faced in life, therefore it's useless".
It's sad to watch, really. He thinks he's making good arguments.
>>7858807
Stoicism is not the same as Marcus Aurelius's book, even you know that. Stoicism is much broader than just that book, the book we are discussing.
CBT is practical and is about giving reasons for why, not just repeating to yourself not to be a certain way.
>>7858819
I've not said this and you know it. Making up shit on the person you're discussing something with is again just a useless thing that those who feel attacked do.
>>7858810
If it became apparent that the depressive was still feeling very depressed and having the exact same issues after having done this process then at best you could say it has some marginal benefit but as an actual useful tool it clearly doesn't work.
I don't see how anyone can argue with this
>>7858810
Yes, it's akin to cognitive behavioural therapy, on which stoicism was a large influence. Remove the God's from stoicism and you pretty much have CBT.
>>7858836
>Stoicism is not the same as Marcus Aurelius's book, even you know that. Stoicism is much broader than just that book, the book we are discussing.
>CBT is practical and is about giving reasons for why, not just repeating to yourself not to be a certain way
Have you even read the book? He is constantly giving reasons and reaffirming key beliefs using reason. In some cases he is brief and doesn't give complete justification. But why would he? He already knows the first principles from which his ideas are derived. He never intended to publish it.
Marcus' Aurelius' book is stoicism in practice. It's a like a proto-CBT journal.
And guess what? People waver in from the principles of CBT. Does that mean CBT is useless? If we listen to what you've been saying, we must conclude that is the case.
>>7858836
Name me an author who used his own ideals to turn his life into perfection. You can't, because that's not how any human has actually lived in real life.
At this point you're either baiting or autistic. I'm not even using it in the meme insult sense -- you sound incapable of seeing life realistically. People are not flawless paragons like anime characters, anon.
>>7858868
>At this point you're either baiting or autistic. I'm not even using it in the meme insult sense -- you sound incapable of seeing life realistically. People are not flawless paragons like anime characters, anon.
I'm getting the same idea mate.
>>7858868
And no one tried to claim they were. You obviously made up your own argument to tear down because you couldn't be bothered to deal with the actual one. And are getting more and more upset it'd seem based on the density of character attacks you're pulling out your ass. If we're going to talk about autismal tantrums...
>>7858867
Why and how I should say. Very low on the how. And also low on the why as well. I have read it. And it is a lot of 'be this way' and then long sprawling 'be this way because of this' like the photo'd paragraph.
It's also a different kind of why, a practical why which is missing.
Take the above paragraph 'why should one look anxiously'
He recognises he shouldn't but recognises he does. It is of zero practical use except, again, pointing out flaws.
The why I'm talking about is 'why fundamentally do I feel this way' 'why is it that it's hard to change' 'why is it that X works in relation to making me better in relation to my goal and so on'
I didn't find much of this in the meditations. Again, insightful, but for the most part an eloquent diagnosis and a lacklustre solution.
As for the CBT and whatever you think we must conclude, that again is just attacking based on nothing as I'm sure you know.
>>7858899
also, check these numbers
>>7858899
>lacklustre solution
It was never written as a solution manual. Why do you keep repeating this after the context of the book has been mentioned several times by me and several other posters?
>>7858915
Well if we look at what started off this conversation it's my pointing out that it is essentially useless in terms of a practical use in one's own life. And floats nice words around a diagnosis and passes it as a solution.
That's the frame this whole conversation here started on. It's not my fault if you forgot that.
>>7858915
Just to add to this as I posted too soon.
If you want a solution manual, epictetus and seneca is where you should look.
The Meditations are the private philosophical meditations of a roman emperor, with himself as the sole intendes reader (which means some things are a given and assumed, he does not need to explain them). It is not a how to of stoicism, not was it ever intended to he. If that's what you wanted, you bought the wrong book.
What makes the Meditations unique and special is the fact it's written by a roman emperor directly to himself.
>>7858919
So you're criticising the book for something it never intended to do?
>>7858262
>In man's life
stopped reading there
>>7858950
Spotted the feminist bull dyke
>>7858262
I have read it, and found it boring. It provoked no though in me. I found it to not be beautiful, either in evoking emotional reactions or in any terms of aesthetics. I struggle to find any meaningful logic within it.
>>7858262
You must have grown up Christian. Soz brah, it's trash.
>>7858262
Who is it? I liked the end of the paragraph.
>>7858262
Except many things are harmful, cholera, HIV, stroms, etc.
Oversimplified rubbish.
>>7858939
Yes, if it intended to say nothing, come up with no solution and be the vapid self-help of its age then yes, nailed it. No criticism if those are the terms you're hoping to affirm it on
>>7858262
It's bretty good OP
Thanks for sharing
The mental clarity of the author is impressive
>>7858262
> 2 paragraphs
>>7858262
Holy buzzwords, batman!
>>7858262
Those two paragraphs are basically a summary of Buddhism
