So guys, I've finally finished /lit/'s trilogy
>IJ
Cool book, nothing really amazing about it, really winded on some parts and a lot of boring passages. I found some of the concepts and characters really good tho, also the bizarre bits were really fun to read and have some good memorable moments
>GR
This was the book I've understanded the least of those 3. Still some amazing passages like Pokler storyline, the whole chapter 4 and the vicerous Katje and Gottfried bit. Anyway I've found Mason & Dixon to be way better than this, probably because it was easier for me, maybe on my second read this will change.
>Ulysses
Easily the best of the three for me, most of the chapters were very interesting, beautiful, moving, luxurious, engaging, sometimes it was very boring but the best parts easily overcome this "problem". Sadly most of the beauty of the chapter oxen of the sun is lost in translation
thanks for reading my blog
Im getting really sick of these ESL cucks reading translations. You fucks obviously know English so read it in English or gtfo
>>7792532
whats the problem with translations? My english isn't good enough to fully understand Joyce, so I prefer to read in my language a books that was translated by someone that knows the language and the author way better than me
don't you read translations? don't you read Dante? Virgil? Homer? Proust? Tolstoy? Saramago? Kawabata? Rosa?
one day I will understand why translations triggers /lit/ so much
>>7792532
This. If you can shitpost in English don't be a faggot by reading translations of English books. Translations are for people who can't read the original language.
oi amigo, é de onde?
>>7792558
Not OP but I try to always read in original langauge if the difficulty is on an acceptable level for me. For books that are difficult enough by themselves without the language barrier having to google a bunch of words on top of digesting the difficult content makes them unreadable.
I will read straight forward stuff like Dracula in English but really dense books are challenging enough even without the language barrier.
how do you keep your paperbacks from curling?
i usually read on an eReader then buy a hardcover if I like the book, paperbacks just look ugly usually
but yours look not shit, how?
>>7792661
Remember: murrican friends only think it's a translation if it's from english to something else, all their Tolstois, Cervantes and Homers were actually writein in english :^)
>>7792696
Sim, estranhei o "Piada infinita". Enfim, te vejo em alguma favela por ai
>>7792555
Americans are pretty stupid about their translations. There's an interesting essay on this, the translator's invisibility by lawrence venuti.
>>7792496
>This was the book I've understanded the least of those 3
>understanded
Your native language better not be English, motherfucker.
If it isn't, you at least have a good excuse.
>>7792696
Vale a pena ler o Gravity's Rainbow em português de Portugal? (sou br) A versão pt-br está esgotada há anos e só consegui achar o Mason e Dixon por aqui. Tanto que estou pensando em ler o GR em inglês mesmo pra forçar um pouco minha leitura em outra língua.
>>7792680
English is the only language that matters
Russian works are made better through translation
>>7792634
i find reading with the book around 45 degrees open stop any spine cracking and curling, so maybe don't have the book so far open? and after you've read it, stick something heavy on top of it and leave it for a week, or stuff it in a bookshelf.
i'm anal as fuck about keeping books perfect because shit if i'm buying them for £10 apiece new they're gonna stay looking new, just be super careful when handling them.
>>7792496
>reading pt-pt
faM...
>>7792762
>"Your native language better not be English, motherfucker." says anon
>replying to a poster who just posted a picture with 3 portuguese books
u a bit dense m8?
>>7792770
Achei o vocabulário necessário para entender GR em inglês muito denso, por isso comprei a tradução de Portugal. Tenho que dizer que não me arrependi nenhum pouco. Claro que para comparar fielmente seria necessário ler por inteiro as duas versões, mas lendo a em português e utilizando o wiki ( http://gravitys-rainbow.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page ) para as piores partes deu para perceber que é muito competente essa versão, pois muito do que está nessa página da wiki está claro na tradução. De qualquer forma, gostei mais de M&D. FikDik
>>7792745
;)
Literally the reason to read any of those is the prose and forming a connection with the author. Just read something in your native language instead of bad translations.
>>7792872
>instead of bad translations
and you know those are bad translations because?
>Literally the reason to read any of those is the prose and forming a connection with the author
>implying there are only a few limited ways to appreciate and consume art
>>7792886
You can appreciate it, but you don't get them and you will never understand why people like them. You haven't read the work of the author, but rather the work of the translator.
>>7792872
how many languages do you speak, bro?
>>7792646
I love you for this post.
>>7792789
I'm the same way, that's why i stick to kindle (also because i can get whatever book i want for free)
>>7792889
>but you don't get them and you will never understand why people like them
Dn't you think this is a really narrow view of things?
Rilk recommended people to read translations
Proust also read translations, same goes for Nabokov
Everything you read is in english? You never felt the curiosity to read Dante? Gombrowicz? Kafka?
So nobody that haven't read Kafka in german understands why he is good? Or can make a connection to him?
>>7792770
>>7792770
Camarada, se tem uma coisa certa nessa thread é o seguinte: Pynchon tem que ser lido em inglês, desde o primeiro contato. Não importa se você tiver dificuldades, comece por baixo. Leia The Crying of Lot 49, que por acaso está 39 reais na edição da Vintage na Livraria Cultura, e veja o que você entende. Compre um dicionário da Cambridge. Faça um esforço. Depois tente um V., talvez. E, lá num belo e quem sabe nem tão distante dia, você acorda e descobre que dá pra dar um tiro no GR, que não lhe custa doer a cabeça um pouco e que, acima de tudo, você comprou a edição em inglês e vai me agradecer por isso.
Ulysses eu li em inglês me apoiando na edição do OP. DFW eu passo longe.
>>7792910
No one that is on /lit/ should read translations of English works, period. I'm ESL and simply learned by reading lots of stuff in English, even Ulysses is possible if I just re-read a sentence here and there. Dodging the issue and going with translations will ultimately just damage your growth as a person.
>>7792496
>Sadly most of the beauty of the chapter oxen of the sun is lost in translation
oxen of the sun is the worst chapter in that book
terrible
>>7792937
>damage your growth as a person
those are some hot arguments brah
also nice rebuttal
>>7792961
You can shut your ears and be lazy if you want, it doesn't concern me. Just keep in mind, you're missing out, on a lot.
Every educated person should know how to read English. Its even taught in third world countries. No one that can read English should ever read a translated book of English.
And to the people saying "hurr you can read ancient greek and russian how patrician xd" - if ancient greek and russian were taught in schools to the extent that English is then your argument would be valid.
Bottom line is: if you're reading an english novel translated into any other language, you're a pleb and should go back to school
>>7792910
The point is that if you can read english, you shouldnt be reading translations of it. The only time i read translations is for languages i dont know.
>>7792911
cara, isso tá longe de ser verdade. as traduções dele pela companhia das letras são todas ótimas. paulo henriques britto é um tradutor fantástico, dá uma olhada no esmero que ele tem com o trabalho de tradução http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0101-33002005000200015
>>7793034
mesma coisa para a tradução do Jorge Pereirinha
http://www.publico.pt/culturaipsilon/noticia/a-guerra-nao-acabou--313891
>>7793029
So basically you just memetexed what i was saying and didnt make an argument. And by the way, they can read a guide alongside the novels with a reputation to be difficult like Ulysses.
For someone with a working knowledge of English but not great still shouldnt read translations because they're not helping themselves improve by reading the translation.
Stop being so PC and start actually giving good advice for people who aren't great at English and advocate for diffcult reading for the purpose of improvement
>>7793078
I don't really know what your problem is, but you need to stop caring so much about how people enjoy their hobby
You didn't repond to my arguments here >>7792910
I bet nobody (or almost nobody) on this board can talk about Kafka
If my motivation for reading was to get better at another language of course that would be the case, but as you can see that isn't the points
also
>memetexed
I guess I'm just being rustled again, you got me /lit/
>>7793034
>>7793072
Sinceramente, isso me soa simplesmente a preguiça. Não custa nada o jovem tentar o Pynchon em inglês e, depois, de modo a entender melhor os textos- que são verdadeiramente complexos- se apoiar nas traduções que você sugeriu. O que eu digo é simples: não há problema algum com traduções, desde que, sendo o texto original numa língua com a qual o leitor possua familiaridade, ela não sirva como um ponto final e, sim, como um portal para novas experimentações ou um guia para a presente.
No caso do Papa Pynch, a tradução só server de muleta. O texto original ou nada, meu bom.
>>7793090
You didnt have any arguments you just took what i said and put a ">" in front.
My problem is people like you who think its ok for someone with at least an american high school reading level (which isnt even that good btw and every adult that studied english throughout school should be at) to read translated english novels. If people dont care about improving their english, then fine, i'll leave them alone. But if they are even a little intellectually curious then i will keep advocating to read english works untranslated and to challenge themselves. Looking up words every now and then online that takes literally 5 seconds shouldnt be a problem
>>7793090
tl;dr: i'm a retard and no one can stop me!
>>7792496
>reading a translation of Ulysses
You didn't read Ulysses, OP.
>doing X is hard
>therefore I don't do X
>that way I will eventually be able to do X, by not doing it
I would have been nice about it if OP hadn't been such a massive fag (shocker) ITT.
PARE DE LER TRADUÇÕES, FILISTEU!
>>7792555
The proble is that you already know English! For God's sake, I was just reading Leopardi on the bus on the way back from uni. Do think I have ever studied Italian? I haven't. Do think I understood all of it? No, I didn't, but I understood *most* of it, and it was certainly much better than reading a translation!
Once, when I was fourteen years old and my English wasn't good enough, I spent *THREE HOURS IN THE DICTIONARY* in order to understand some of Pound's early poems in which he used loads of arcaisms, such as The Seafarer.
Get the bloody originals, get a dictionary (the Concise Oxford is good), and IMPROVE YOUR ENGLISH THROUGH READING.
>>7793221
No.
>>7793307
hey shitskin you already got bfto throughout the entire thread just leave and read your inferior books
>>7792555
^^^
As some one who speaks two languages I approve of this message. Except German is generally easier to understand than the translations soo.....
>>7793221
>Do think I understood all of it? No, I didn't, but I understood *most* of it, and it was certainly much better than reading a translation!
I really don't think so, pal
>>7792661
>this niggers
I've never actually seen someone type in a heavy Spanish accent before.
this board is just retarded bro, I bet most of the people here with basic knowledge on spanish read Borges and Cervantes in english
>>7795068
You have literally sub 80 IQ.
>>7795088
thanks for proving my point faggo
like I've said, this board is retarded
>>7792496
Translating Ulysses or Gravity's Rainbow is borderline pointless. idk about infinite jest since i've not read it but I'd imagine it's the same.
>>7795132
Same could be said about Dante, still everybody in this board read in english
Double standards mate
>>7792788
>Russian works are made better through translation
You cant really be this stupid
>>7795166
welcome to /lit/
>>7795166
>S1 E6: The Old Man and the BEE
Dave and his rival Bret are doing cocaine in Dave's garage when they're visited by the ghost of Ernest Hemingway. Ernest asks Dave why he has to "talk like a fuckin' faggot all the time?"
>>7792496
>translations
>"finished" anything
pick one
>>7795189
laughed
>>7795241
topebin.png
>>7795151
>>7795151
I don't think I agree. Though obviously I could be wrong. Is Dante a book about language? Gravity's Rainbow and Ulysses ultimately are, and most English speakers aren't capable of reading them properly. You need a pretty extensive understanding of the english language both culturally and etymologically before you can appreciate these novels properly.
Like, this is a shit example but:
how do you translate the pun near the beginning of Gravity's Rainbow where Prentice's batman is called Wayne. It just seems impossible.
>>7795362
I realise that I just called Dante a book but it was a typo.
>>7792496
the meme triology are in english for a reason, why would you get a translation?
and especially for ulysses
>>7792555
>reading books with heavy wordplay, puns, and English-speaking world references
>"hurr durr, I'm sure I won't lose anything in translation"
>literally communicates this thought in perfectly grammatical English
>>7795362
>reading a book, that is an epic poem work, credited with standardizing the Italian language, in english
>no problem reading in english guys
>reading a book with puns in another language
>no can't do because they are so deep
this board man
>>7795385
>"hurr durr, I'm sure I won't lose anything in translation"
where did him imply that anon?
>>7795362
>Gravity's Rainbow
>about language
of the many things the book is about, language is not one of them.
Also, I've read OPs translation of Ulysses AND the original, and while it does lose some stuff, the translators made a very good job. They also translated (separately) Pynchon's work, which I've read in both portuguese and english, and little to nothing is lost (though some puns and wordplay get adapted, but come on)
filthy portuguese speakers need to get off /lit/. your language is disgusting
>>7792496
>So guys, I've finally finished /lit/'s trilogy
Maybe, and only maybe, you can say you're done with IJ. There's two to go, try again when you can speak more than one language, seu macaco.
>>7795474
If you say so
>>7795491
Classic favelado response
>>7795151
It isn't possible to read Dante in English. Anything claiming to be an English version of his works is just someone else's work that's based on Dante.
>>7795409
When you claimed to have read Ulysses and Gravity's Rainbow.
>>7796725
>"... is lost in translation"
LITERALY quoting OP
so many retards here man
>>7796857
OP was only referring to one chapter, though. In reality, most of the beauty of the entire novel is lost in translation, considering how much of it is based on Irish colloquialism.
>>7793221
>Worldplay
>Don't realize it because bad english
>Somehow I should be able to realize it the next time I encounter it
No.
Translator here. You guys are all spewing shit. Educate yourselves before talking about a subject
>>7797220
Hope you don't get paid for your work, because you have a shitty approach to the entire concept.
>>7792496
I thought it was The Sound & The Fury not Ulysses
T R A D U Ç Õ E S S Ã O U M M I T O
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Ç
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Cara, se você sabe inglês acho um vacilo cabuloso não ler a obra na língua original. Mesmo se você não sabe muito, pode muito bem treinar lendo outros livros mais simples em inglês até ficar confiante pra atacar Uysses ou GR.
>>7800123
>um vacilo cabuloso
ok.
>>7792496
How difficult would you say Infinite Jest is? More or less difficult than Ulysses? Did you like it?
>>7792812
I just bought IJ in hueland but I opted for the original one, since both it and the graça infinita translation were about the same price. I greatly prefer to read the original writing for any book because it's so easy to lose meaning and intricacies true translation. Neuromancer comes to mind. It's unbearable in portuguese.
>>7792555
i worry that if you can't adequately read these books in english, then maybe you're also unable to discern the complex layers of irony and references in my posts
>>7792496
>that ulysses cover
holy shit that's awful
>>7792555
>don't you read translations? don't you read Dante? Virgil? Homer? Proust? Tolstoy? Saramago? Kawabata? Rosa?
not saying I agree with him, but I think the obvious difference in this case is that you actually speak the original language these books were written in while the guy you're talking too probably doesn't know russian, greek, etc.
a lot of people view translations as a last resort since meanings are often (unintentionally) changed in the translation process due to the nuances of different languages. it probably doesn't matter for most books as long as you do at least a little bit of research first to find out if the translation you picked is dogshit
So what should I read in order to improve my English?
>>7793221
>The Concise Oxford is good
Is this an IJ meme?
>>7792496
Please tell me you didn't read a translation of Mason & Dixon... I can't even imagine how much would -- literally -- be lost in translation
>>7802079
a dictionary
>>7802101
There's actually a link itt of the guy who translated telling, amongst other things, how Pynchon would email him with any assistance and opinion he needed.
The guy is considered the greatest lusophone translator and shit, he also did, amongst other things, Ulysses, Absalom! Absalom! and all of Delillo's works who were published here.
So as a native English speaker, what language should I learn first to better appreciate literature? Ideally not something too challenging like Russian or Jap as I've never learned a language before.
>>7802374
Probably French.
>>7802374
Stick with english, if you can learn spanish but I wouldn't recomend it because it's an ugly language
