Thoughts on the decline of the west? Was Spengler right about recurring Caesarism, decadence, and the cyclical rise and decay of high cultures? I can't help but feel as if I am seeing potential Caesarism arising in the United states. Thoughts on this?
>>7700182
Eh, I think as the West becomes more and more connected, we're just going to reach a general hegemony
I also enjoy seeing how Spengler's work influenced Lovecraft particularly in his short story 'the nameless city' where it seems the rise and decay of the civilization is alluded to. Particularly when lovecraft is describing the frescoes he studied while exploring the ruins of the abandoned city. Kind of unrelated, but I find Spengler's ideas fascinating. https://youtu.be/FsaieZt5vjk
I find it interesting to note how reactionary authors such as evola preached traditionalism and yet failed to marry and father children.
>>7700187
Are we really deserving of leading when we as a group seem to embrace self destructive principles. The nhilism present in much of contemporary art seems to be indicitive of the apathy of the present west.
>>7700771
The catechism of social pathos
>>7700187
The catechism of social logos
>>7700810
The catechism of social ethos
Aren't you guys due for your TV appearances/seminars?
>>7700771
Didn't Evola feel that western women were manipulative prostitutes?
That would explain it.
He's pretty much right. If you look at the reasons Grecian, Roman, and Holy Roman empires fell, as well was what led to those occurrences, there are ties and similar ideologies through them all.
A lot of the time it's just flip-flopping between the Platonic or Aristotelian ideal.
>>7701281
He was crippled
Too idealist from my tastes, but not that bad if you want to learn about cultural history.
The Polybian idea of historical recurrence is however pretty shit and undermines the work quite a bit imo.
>>7701284
Spengler's contempt for the Socratic catechism is justified. He argued that Socrates helped nip the Roman culture in the bud, because instead of Romans sharing an appreciation for Greek culture, Socrates's own lifestyle managed to slander all of Greece. Rome formulated itself as a Mere Civilization as a result of Socrates. Here Spengler absolutely nails it.
I would argue that our catechists took full stride 600 years ago during the 'Renaissance'. Even Michaelangelo's work is a robust example of a kind of painted catechism.
Instead of flowering into a number of learned Republics, we helped abolish the Aristocratic principle in favour of a 'Socratic aristocracy' (a total contradiction in terms).
To form an analogy in Greco-Roman terms, their 'so-called Renaissance' under Socrates occurred more around 400 B.C., so we might consider our society hovering at around 200 B.C. This is roughly the same setting for films like Ridley Scott's "Gladiator" and "The Fall of the Roman Empire". We could be about 133 years out from a genuine Rebirth of Religion.
>>7701321
>He was crippled
degenerate shitlord
>>7701267
I like this guy
>>7701267
Yes of course. Thank you for pointing that out you are one saavy butt brother!
>>7701267
I'm too stupid. Please explain what you mean by social pathos/logos/ethos (the catechism element is clear)
>>7701338
Care to elaborate further on why his idea of the cyclical rise and fall of civilization is shit? I honestly would like to here the extent of your criticism.
>>7700182
the west died in 1945. This is the Age of the Jew
>>7701659
What if I told you Spengler was a Jew?
>>7701683
Is that why he thought the Nazis were fools?
>>7701696
nah he was actually a self-hating judeophile cuck and a socialist
>>7701840
Cool that totally negates everything he I ever wrote. Gee anon you should write a book.
Am I the only one who sees the current election in the USA to potentially lead to the Caesarism which Spengler described? If so is this a good thing?
>>7700771
Too redpilled for marriage
>>7701873
>is this a good thing
nope.
I don't know what the hell trump is yet, not really a fascist or even a conservative. rather a creature of the spectacle. closest parallel I can think of is Vladimir Zhirinovsky in Russia
Anime killed the west
>>7700771
Like all the anons.
I will show myself BackToReddit.
>>7701915
The wall thing seems borderline neo reactionary. What about his ideology seems to contradict conservatism in your view?
>>7701873
I like Trump but he really isn't the Great Man/Ubermensch people want him to be
it will take a Hillary presidency to get us to that point
>>7702114
Well memed my friend. I'm really raising the question does he fit (or any candidates for that matter) the spengler archetype of a caesar? This thought struck me earlier today and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject.
>>7701915
Just looking at that picture I can tell he's a Russian version of Trump
>>7701267
Please explain what you mean by catechism (the pathos/ethos/logos element is clear)
>>7702131
desu i dont even know why Ceasar has to be american he could just as well be european
all he needs to be is someone who kicks in the door of the current political establishment of the west
if Spenglers thesis is correct this ceasar will be formed in coming conflicts (or as some anon suggested the financial market) pretty sure we are not far away from an escalation in the ME
Also i dont think this Ceasar will hold the ideological position Trump holds
it will be something with more mass appeal
>>7702131
I would say no more than Obama
>>7702158
Ah Obama seems weak and is a non westerner. He seems more like yet another symbol of our cultures decadence.
>>7702131
>>7702148
Faustian Civilization is Egyptian in scope, therefore it will be Hykosized in 2204.
Does anyone actually read it?
Fixing the West requires us to:
-abolish democracy
-restore a monarchy
-roll back female emancipation
-restore the West to a majority white demographic
This will not happen until the West goes up in flames and it's only a matter of time before it does. A Hillary presidency will only accelerate this process.
On Trump, it's difficult to say whether or not he's serious about his propositions or if he's an opportunist because after all he's a savvy businessman and an expert self-promoter, but either way he would never be allowed into office and even if he was AND he was serious he would be undermined by checks and balances. If anything he is at least indicative that there are significant sections of the American populace who are open to reactionary ideas.
None of the other Republican candidates are viable, as neocons are willing to pander to minorities for votes and have no real peoblem with immigration. Bernie Sanders wants to turn everyone into Nietzsche's Last Man.
>>7702235
>restore a monarchy
>>7702250
I assume you're trying to imply that being for a monarchy is somehow edgy but taking the entire history of human civ into account, democracy is a new invention in its babby stages, so you're the one who's edgy my man.
>>7702235
>restore a monarchy
meme opinion tbqh
you should know by now there is no such thing as going back
replace the monarch with an AI and maybe we can talk
>>7700182
stop the anti-intellectual maoism
aka
ban social media
>>7702235
>having this many edges
>>7702258
not edgy, but it's rather silly. reactionary LARPers seem to have a ridiculously idealized view of the ancien regime based on high fantasy doorstopers rather than on actual history or pre-enlightenment political thought
>>7702258
>but taking the entire history of human civ into account, democracy is a new invention in its babby stages
Maybe you should get to 10th grade world history before you talk abut the entire history of human civilization my man
>>7702235
>restore a monarchy
>thinking what made feudalism great had anything to do with a king
>thinking just putting a king on the throne makes everything better
you know nothing
>>7702261
AI is a pipedream and the particupar brand of AI obsession, for example by the spergs from Less Wrong, is a form of autistic transhumanist fetishization of technology.
>>7702281
Many of them yes, but some actually do read and are well-read in pre-Enlightenment history. There are a lot of reactionary writers out there who are functionally illiterate and have terrible ideas but I've found a handful who are pretty erudite.
You say their worldview is idealized but even the most realistic reactionary proposal one can take is still better than what we have now (IE democracy, politicians who abuse immigration for votes, corporations who abuse immigration for cheap labour, and women's emancipation allowing them to cause harm to themselves and others).
>>7702304
>AI is a pipedream
yeah unlike monarchism and government rollback lmao
>>7702304
Men's emancipation allows them to cause harm to themselves and others, too. Enslave everyone now! Vote Reptilian 2016!
>growing social isolation
>decadence
>lack of perceived cultural identity
>selfish politics and political beliefs, or political beliefs based on some helping some extra-national entity or emotions
I don't really know if any one ideology can fix things but there needs to be some kind of change.
>>7702281
Is it possible to divorce the genius of artistic historical figures such as J.S. Bach from the overall social climate of their day? In other words could the artistic high excellence of past western civilization be eclipsed by that of modern civilization?
If art truly is indicitive of the spirit of the age, what can we infer from post modern art? what does this art say about our sense of ourselves in relation to our society?
This is the reason that some people feel disgusted with modernity. What can be done to revitalize that sense of dynamism within us?
>>7702303
>thinking what made feudalism great had anything to do with a king
Putting words in my mouth.
>>7702316
Keep working on your tinker toys and Japanese anime fuckbots. AI has been hailed as the saviour for decades and we still don't have robots that can fold clothes by themselves.
>>7702318
Men also invented civilization. Women exist to breed.
>>7702327
Only tangentially related, but your post about social climate reminds me of one of Dalyrimple's essays:
>There is something to be said here about the word "depression," which has almost entirely eliminated the word and even the concept of unhappiness from modern life. Of the thousands of patients I have seen, only two or three have ever claimed to be unhappy: all the rest have said that they were depressed. This semantic shift is deeply significant, for it implies that dissatisfaction with life is itself pathological, a medical condition, which it is the responsibility of the doctor to alleviate by medical means. Everyone has a right to health; depression is unhealthy; therefore everyone has a right to be happy (the opposite of being depressed). This idea in turn implies that one's state of mind, or one's mood, is or should be independent of the way that one lives one's life, a belief that must deprive human existence of all meaning, radically disconnecting reward from conduct.
I don't think he's wrong.
>>7702334
>Putting words in my mouth.
If you didn't even think that much then your statments retarded
>>7702334
>Keep working on your tinker toys and Japanese anime fuckbots. AI has been hailed as the saviour for decades and we still don't have robots that can fold clothes by themselves.
Are you well? Serious question.
>>7702334
technology gets better everyday
monarchism will never come back
>>7702368
>meme response
>>7702374
I'm not even the person you replied to, but your understanding of AI, and technological advancement for that matter, is quite poor.
>>7702102
nationalized healthcare
Why does spengler threads get filled with shit by memetic neo-reactionaries and the other side of their dialectic
plz go spengler wants nothing to do with you guys
>>7702258
>democracy is a new invention
whoa. I was under the impression the whole time that it was routinely practiced by the ancient greeks. I guess all those books and college professor were wrong. Thanks for giving me the factual truth
>>7702371
>>7702384
We still don't have robots that do as simple a task as fold clothes by themselves unless a low-skill, low-IQ menial worker first loads each individual garment into the robot first. You can't just chuck a basket of clothes at a robot.
It amazes me that allegedly intelligent people don't understand that better technology makes people more productive, not redundant. Good luck using AI to replace a low-wage bathroom attendant to clean a restroom up to hygiene codes.
Another perfect example is the air traffic control system. ATC still uses technology from the 80's, and there has been a huge push towards privatization and automatization of the national airspace system, to predictably disastrous results. You cannot remove the human component, you can only make his job easier. The meme idea that we can put all our eggs into the basket of technology, let alone be ruled by one, is an idea only someone who spends all his time on 4chan believes.
Is Saudi Arabia a reactionary utopia?
>>7702327
>what can we infer from post modern art
Has more to do with the self-referentiality and omniscience brought on by communication technology. it's no 'better' or 'worse'. That's also why we can't go back. Just like ancient empires were shaped by the wheel and the scribes' quill, we are shaped by our own technologies. Our current state/corporate system is actually too centralized and rigid a relic of an earlier time
>This is the reason that some people feel disgusted with modernity
People have been disgusted with modernity since the beginning of time. the 'sense of dynamism' is still there, perhaps even stronger than ever. It's just expressed through internet memes and ad campaigns rather than through sacred music or baroque architecture. In a sense nothing ever changes.
>>7702401
>muh dialectics
Go make a Hegel thread and poop your pants elsewhere with the other retards who spent valuable time reading the German Lacan.
>>7702401
>muh dialectics
Go make a Hegel thread and poop your pants elsewhere with the other retards who spent valuable time reading the German Lacan.
>>7702411
You had to be an adult male citizen (a Greek) who owned land. If you didn't understand that I was speaking directly about modern democracy in the West based on numerous cues in the post you quoted you're either being willfully obtuse or you can't read, in which case why are you on /lit/?
>>7702416
no one is talking about AI doing menial tasks
>>7702443
Once AI can do menial tasks then we can talk about "replacing the monarch with an AI". That guy was a goofball.
>>7702449
there are plenty of human geniuses that can't do menial tasks
it's a non argument
how about you actually put forward an argument for the feasibility of monacrhy
>>7702418
>No better or worse
So you're basically saying art is in no way objective? For instance, if a school of artistic thought teaches a certain technique, such as counterpoint in music, would the application of this technique not lead to objective conclusions musically? If one studies fugue writing objectively is one not more easily inclined to write a fugue?
Throwing paint at a canvas without the slightest regard for technique/discipline and ascribing it some deeper meaning, why? I understand you can make the argument that its meaning is subjective, but that doesn't mean it should be held up as the pinnacle of our culture. Formless nhilistic art lacks discipline.
>>7702304
what would prevent a king from falling into the same traps? are we actually living in a democracy? aren't electoral politics just one out of many instruments of control and regulation?
>>7702439
>You had to be an adult male citizen (a Greek) who owned land. If you didn't understand that I was speaking directly about modern democracy in the West based on numerous cues in the post you quoted you're either being willfully obtuse or you can't read, in which case why are you on /lit/?
>>7702439
>I assume you're trying to imply that being for a monarchy is somehow edgy but taking the entire history of human civ into account, democracy is a new invention in its babby stages, so you're the one who's edgy my man.
>contradicting oneself
>not even understanding terms such as "direct democracy" and "federal republic"
>being this defensive on an anonymous imageboard
>>7702416
Digital computer technology is relatively young, but advances at a nearly exponential rate. Ever father.
Just because technology has not yet reached a certain point does not mean that it will not. Also, it does in fact make humans redundant when it is sufficiently capable to eliminate need for them. The age old horse example hold here.
In not personally much of a proponent of all this, but it is what it is, and there is no harm I can see in discussing AI rulership theoretically.
>>7702416
well great minds have fruitlessly fallen down the rabbit hole of knowledge engineering
continuous improvements in the field of machine learning may yield better results
>>7702455
>there are plenty of human geniuses that can't do menial tasks
No one ever suggested making geniuses do menial tasks. What was suggested was essentially being ruled by AI which is asinine when our AI hasn't even developed to the point of independently folding clothes.
We've been hearing promises from the AI fetishist crowd for thirty years and the self-driving cars still haven't arrived.
>>7702459
>are we actually living in a democracy?
Obviously not. This is also the same argument Hot Topic enthusiasts who read part of The Communist Manifesto once use when defending "Real Communism (TM)" and posting Bernie Sanders memes on Facebook.
>aren't electoral politics just one out of many instruments of control and regulation?
Yes, and the current one - not restricting the vote to a select demographic - is surely the worst, and opens itself up to exploitation by politicians and corporations who abuse immigration for free votes and cheap labour.
>>7702497
>Tolkien enthusiasts who read some atrociously verbose blog posts authored by a failed pick up artist/IT guy use when defending "Real Monarchy (TM)" and posting 'reactionary pepes' on twitter and facebook
ftfy
>>7702490
>>7702469
Even if I'm willing to entertain the idea of an eventual AI renaissance, do you really think this is going to come about via a democratic capitalist system?
Meme entrepreneurs like Elon Musk have to work decades to scrape up enough money to fund projects like SpaceX and Tesla, and SpaceX still has issues getting a fucking rocket to re-land successfully. SpaceX will probably not succeed in a meaningful way before it becomes insolvent or Musk gets bored. How many ventures like this could have been successful given a non-democratic, non-capitalistic environment in which a fascist or monarchic government routed funds into technologies that would have otherwise been spent on shit like fuckbots for the ever-growing /r9k/ population (who only exist because of female emancipation), or silicon valley meme shit that allows fat childless women to signal their anxieties and "depression" (due to modernity, how weird!) on tumblr or twitter more efficiently? Get real.
>>7702568
>SpaceX still has issues getting a fucking rocket to re-land successfully
u do realize no one ever relanded a rocket successfully before u fucking mong? nasa used to just let the shit fall back to earth and hope it burned up or landed in some country full of brown people. people with no clue about anything should just shut the fuck up and go back to reading their meme stories.
on the other hand AI is a fantasy and will never happen.
>>7702561
Tolkien sucks, IT is populated by D&D nerds and PUA is for dorks who can't get laid naturally. Doesn't mean neoreactionary writing by Tolkien enthusiasts in IT who have to have modern courtship spelled out to them is wrong.
>>7702589
>u do realize no one ever relanded a rocket successfully before u fucking mong? nasa used to just let the shit fall back to earth and hope it burned up or landed in some country full of brown people. people with no clue about anything should just shut the fuck up and go back to reading their meme stories.
No shit. Do you even read the things you respond to?
>>7702620
So how come Russia never landed on the moon?
>>7702598
I don't believe it's 'wrong'. its just suspicious that most of your political movement happens to be composed of the worst autists and pseuds around. Like that transexual former OWS protestor who started a campaign to make google's CEO king of america.
>>7702642
Everyone knows nobody landed on the moon; Kubrick faked it. ;^)
>>7702649
If we're speaking entirely theoretically here and, for the sake of conversation, I was appointed as either the monarch or someone in a high position of government, there's a large percentage of people who currently style themselves as neoreactionaries whom I disagree with on a personal, philosophical, and ideological level and would need to be purged. Neoreaction is a large umbrella and it attracts all different kinds of groups. This includes people who take religion too seriously instead of as a necessary spiritual social adhesive, people who got into the whole alt-right thing through the "manosphere" and just want some free pussy outside of their league, and people who know nothing about history, art, philosophy, or literature and are for one reason or another disgruntled with modernity.
As to the anon upthread who asked "What would stop a monarch from falling into the same traps of modernity", it's a valid question that I don't have an answer to and I wrestle with it constantly. Some proponents of NRx say there needs to be an aristocracy along genetic / heritage lines and while I don't disagree that there needs to be an aristocracy, restoring the current line of a Henry is no guarantee that he won't be an absolute shit.
If anything I am more of a Zapffean pessimist who thinks nobody should reproduce but that's a conversation that will only happen when people like me and my own are in power; capitalism and democracy and even evolutionary biology are obstacles to this which only part of why I have an issue with opportunists running civilization instead of people willing to have an adult conversation.
Everyone in this thread reminds of that Simpsons character who urges his classmates to unite with him, so they will not be lonesome twigs, but instead one mighty faggot.
>>7702778
>I'm an adult who watches cartoons in my free time
>>7702806
>said the mighty faggot
>>7701603
It has nothing to do with Catholicism... I see catechism as a Socratic principle of issuing presumptive mantras in the form of questions. It's retrograde discourse.
In the Aristotlelian system of syllogism, you're at least raising two generalized formulas openly before rejecting them, then giving reasons, making an appeal to history, and perhaps giving a general quotation on the subject at hand.
>>7702748
>I was appointed as either the monarch or someone in a high position of government, there's a large percentage of people who currently style themselves as neoreactionaries whom I disagree with on a personal, philosophical, and ideological level and would need to be purged.
>tfw you will never sentence a degenerate to a life in the dungeon
Think Saudi Arabia or any of the gulf states for that matter. absolutist monarchies propped out by oil wealth, they reject pretty much all forms of democracy. Their society is totally dysfunctional and unsustainable, immobilized by its rigid customs and crippled by a dependency on cheap immigrant labor (in some places, arab subjects are a minority). when the oil dries up the whole order is going to collapse, and it will probably be for the better
>>7702649
neoreaction isn't a movement and the monarchists aren't really neoreactionaries
It's funny how nobody takes neoreactionaries seriously.
>>7701267
>I'll offer a critique but not address the main topic myself
Mobile posters everyone
>>7702920
it's funny how all the criticisms of neoreactionary thought basically boil down to snarky greentexts that completely misunderstand what it actually is
>>7702928
Hi there!
You seem to have made a bit of a mistake in your post. Luckily, the users of 4chan are always willing to help you clear this problem right up! You appear to have used a tripcode when posting, but your identity has nothing at all to do with the conversation! Whoops! You should always remember to stop using your tripcode when the thread it was used for is gone, unless another one is started! Posting with a tripcode when it isn't necessary is poor form. You should always try to post anonymously, unless your identity is absolutely vital to the post that you're making!
Now, there's no need to thank me - I'm just doing my bit to help you get used to the anonymous image-board culture
>>7702837
Pointing out Saudi Arabia as a failed monarchy is not an argument against someone who champions monarchy and also eschews cheap immigrant labour.
>>7703048
the point was that monarchy isn't impervious to the 'traps of modernity'. a monarch is as likely to fuck up as an elected leader, but the king is much harder to remove
>>7701915
Trump seems fascist to me, and not in the memedia 'he says unpleasant things' way.
He approaches economics from the perspective of nations competing rather than merely companies competing and stresses this competition almost as a form of warfare. His policies are protectionist and he's seeking to bring multinationals back to America so that their production process may provide work for the people and strengthen the nation. He's clearly not opposed to the welfare state, so he gives off centrist/corporatist vibes.
Of all the republican candidates he is the least concerned about libertarian muh gubment and conservative muh abortion and fags issues. He just looks at the nation's vitality both internal and international.
Trump cares about high energy, about low energy, about 'China killing us', about walls, about bombing the shit out of people, about the reclaiming of greatness of an empire. If nothing else, he has a fascist personality.
I think that he is very insightful in a few ways. One is his notion of all art being religious, and the art of late cultures being atheist/essentially negative. Related is the idea of the prime symbol of the individual culture, which is just a fascinating notion. He has lots of ways of looking at problems that just make you re-evaluate how you think.
What he says about civilizations being cyclical has been said by others, and on some accounts you can't actually argue with it, civilizations do end, and there are similarities between these downfalls. It is very clear that the West is going through something like this, with decreased birth rates and rising immigration being the main factors that resemble past declines. On the other hand modern technology might make past models of civilizational growth and decay and interaction obsolete.
I'm less sure about his obsession with the organic nature of civilization, and especially his division of living reality as cosmic and tension. I can see some of this making sense but it doesn't all line up at all. It does appear that civilizations just lose their will to live, or at the least to assert themselves, and that the art tends towards extreme pessimism and escapism, but his ascription of certain organic qualities to this is never really properly explained.
The Decline of the West is a brilliant read in any case, almost intoxicating at times. Wittgenstein and Heidegger were both influenced by it.
>>7703077
A king is easier to get rid off than an endless faceless carousel of corporate puppets that pass the torch every four years.
>>7703093
>He approaches economics from the perspective of nations competing rather than merely companies competing
pretty much all economic analyses prior to the Regan era took this approach
>>7703118
We are not in the pre-Reagan era, we're in the "bring in immigrants for free votes and cheap labour" era.
>>7703128
the point is taking a national approach to economics doesn't make you fascist
>>7703095
Can you elaborate on why you didn't find his "organic" explanation of cultural evolution compelling? Not saying I disagree but I want to talk with someone who actually read the book.
>>7703142
You're missing the point that Trump wants to literally build a wall to keep the mud people out, so in that sense he is for all intents and purposes an ethno-nationalist and a fascist.
>>7703146
Because I don't quite agree with his dividing of cosmic beat and tension as a satisfactory explanation of awareness. This means that when he applies these notions to his metaphor of culture as organism it doesn't mean anything to me. I think that whatever fundamental divisions might explain sentience, it is possible that in the case specifically of cultures, and of technology which I think is related, we are dealing with something quite structurally different than biological life. The similarities he finds between these fields are all very ambiguous things which almost work only in poetry- and they do work, but when he tries to explain them with a concrete sort of ontology I'm not convinced.
I agree with him that cultures resemble organism, but I think that is because they both resembles something else. Or are constituted both of some other primary dichotomy. Or something along those lines.
>>7703162
by the way I apologize for the grammar and spelling errors in this post, and if it's incoherent. My brain is not functioning at all right now.
>>7703160
no he wants to stop turning a blind eye to illegal immigration
unless adhering to the rule of law is now fascist
>>7703170
More so that I see it as being something akin to biological life's emergence from chemistry. Same 'leveling up' type of phenomenon.
>>7703171
"Fascist" has, hilariously, become a meme buzzword so I can only assume you're taking offense to painting Trump as a fascist. There's nothing wrong with stopping illegal immigration nor with the rule of law; in fact I think reshaping the West into a white majority ethno-state via fascism is entirely necessary until we can even begin to talk about democracy, because national democracy will only work when women and non-citizens are restricted from voting.
>>7702354
Fascinating. This essay will be on my reading list
>>7703188
I don't take offense to Trump being called a fascist
all I'm saying is that he isn't a fascist as much as both the left and right want him to be
>>7702411
That routine democracy of the Greeks didn't survive the test of time, now did it?
>>7703195
made one just the other day actually
[email protected]
And yeah for sure.
>>7702820
Copying from books again, George?
>lets just make a king again!
no no no
you don't find a king
the king finds you
if you could all turn your pockets inside-out and sort out the rubbish and put a proper king in charge you wouldn't need him to begin with
>>7702148
OR there will be no Caesar and Spengler is just a hack looking for patterns where there are none because he simplifies things way too much.
>>7700771
true
>>7703188
>in fact I think reshaping the West into a white majority ethno-state via fascism is entirely necessary until we can even begin to talk about democracy, because national democracy will only work when women and non-citizens are restricted from voting.
Oh /pol/, you are such fun to be around.
>>7703316
The "true" post is not me, those other two posts are. How is it samefagging though? Do you know what samefagging is?
>>7703249
clever
>>7701915
Trump is a purest form of populist liberal, the only thing that matterst to him is capital
>>7703320
What you did was shotgun three snarky shitposts with zero content in order to make it look like there were three people who shared your millennial meme worldview.
Using "/pol/" as a derogative doesn't make you smart or witty, it makes you boring and a memer who is as bad as the illiterate memers he's meming about.
>>7703367
Again, I am perfectly aware of what I did: I gave my opinion on a topic at hand that is discussed, because I thought the awareness of the possibility of wrongness was completely lacking so far.
And then I ridiculed a person who actually thinks that only his certain brand of people should count as people in a democracy. (Do you actually think this is just a "millenial meme worldview"?)
If you think two replies makes me a samefag who tries to overtake a vocal majority, I apologize. I did not plan to threaten you.
>Using "/pol/" as a derogative doesn't make you smart or witty, it makes you boring
Oh no I am lame. :(
For real though, using /pol/ as a derogative is a pretty widespread thing to do on 4chan, you know? And do you not think it was fitting in that particular case?
>>7703379
>And then I ridiculed a person who actually thinks that only his certain brand of people should count as people in a democracy. (Do you actually think this is just a "millenial meme worldview"?)
Apparently the Athenians were retards worthy of being mocked by memelords on anime websites, good to know.
>>7703396
Yeah, they got some stuff wrong. I wouldn't go your length of completely neglecting everything that I partially disagree with though.
As in: I do not automatically think that guy was a retard, I just think his opinion is ridiculous to have in this day and age.
History is nothing but reactionaries reacting to reactionaries.
>>7703405
>his opinion is ridiculous to have in this day and age.
By which you mean everyone is equal, natural hierarchy doesn't exist, and thus everyone is equally deserving of a vote in a real democracy, right?
>>7703405
>>7703405
The idea of acknowledging society isn't equal and those best suited to lead, should, becomes more and more fashionable by the day. There's a resurgence of conservative thought precisely b/c it is being sold as unthinkable by modern politics, which is clearly rife with failings.
>>7703405
>this day and age
IT'S 2016 I MEAN COME ON!
>>7703421
Yeah.
If you want hierarchy, don't base it on race or sex. Base it on the ability of the individual. I don't want retarded rednecks just as much as I don't want stupid niggers to have too much of an impact on the government.
>>7703426
Again, yes, those more able to lead should lead, but this is not based on race or sex.
I prefer a state where the individual is judged rather than the collective, and where every individual is given as equal a chance as possible.
>There's a resurgence of conservative thought precisely b/c it is being sold as unthinkable by modern politics
And because in times of big problems populism is an effective political method.
>>7702235
>-abolish democracy
>-restore a monarchy
>-roll back female emancipation
>-restore the West to a majority white demographic
Move to Saudi Arabia.
>>7703448
Being a native male Saudi would be a great life.
>>7703445
>I prefer a state where the individual is judged rather than the collective, and where every individual is given as equal a chance as possible.
So do I, but the ratio of competent white males to competent non-white non-males is strangely disproportionate and it needs to be addressed.
Legitimate question, are you a nonwhite or a female?
>>7703448
Saudi Arabia actively exploits immigrant labour and is also governed and comprised of mud people, so no thanks.
>>7703445
>Again, yes, those more able to lead should lead, but this is not based on race or sex.
No-one seriously wants a female president.
>>7703455
>So do I, but the ratio of competent white males to competent non-white non-males is strangely disproportionate and it needs to be addressed.
If it is like that then it is like that. I don't believe it is purely based on race or sex, just as I don't believe it is purely based on cultural circumstances. Both are likely a factor. But even if there is just one competent black woman, leaving her out of politics because she is black or a woman would be retarded.
>>7703459
Well, many american people apparently do. See Clinton in the polls.
>>7703462
>See Clinton in the polls.
I see millions spent on a failing propaganda campaign. even if she wins the nomination, since Sanders isn't privy to same inner circles she is, she will never win the actual election, regardless of who the right props up against her.
>>7703462
>See Clinton in the polls.
Yeah, people will totally vote for Clinton. I mean, it's not they literally chose the most politically unapproachable candidate, black guy with zero experience whose name sounds like Osama, over her the last time. It's clear Shillary is an option only when no-one else is.
>>7703462
>But even if there is just one competent black woman, leaving her out of politics because she is black or a woman would be retarded
For every competent nonwhite person or any woman of any race there are hundreds of competent white males who could vote more intelligently and / or do their job better. This is what you don't understand.
>>7703471
>I see millions spent on a failing propaganda campaign.
Doesn't she lead the polls? Also, yes, american elections are based around million dollar propaganda campaigns.
>>7703475
You really simplify stuff here, my man.
>>7703478
What's your point? That I should not be allowed to vote because there is someone else who is smarter than me? Should only one person be allowed to vote?
>>7703483
If your vote also enables the votes of countless idiots, yes.
>>7703483
It's the simple truth, the choices are Hillary or a self professed communist. It's not that anyone actually wants her, and she is in fact not leading, despite spending many times more money than Sanders on her campaign.
>>7703483
>What's your point? That I should not be allowed to vote because there is someone else who is smarter than me? Should only one person be allowed to vote?
Ideally no one should be allowed to "vote", but furthermore you're implying I give a shit about women voting which I don't because they shouldn't be allowed to vote, and you're implying I give a shit about nonwhites voting which I don't because they shouldn't, and ideally the only reason nonwhites would be here is if they were vassals or sefs or slaves.
>>7703490
There is also someone who is smarter than you. Does that mean that you should not be allowed to vote?
>>7703493
>the people who express their opinion on something do not actually have that opinion
Anon, you need to accept the fact that other people do not necessarily think like you.
Or do you have any sources that all the people who vote for Hillary only do so for the lack of a better option?
>>7703499
>Ideally no one should be allowed to "vote"
In that case we are on completely different ideological grounds.
I imply that (implying you are the one who posted >>7703188) you give a shit about some people having the right to vote over others in your ideal democracy, and that those people who are able to vote have that right based on their intelligence/competence, but you neglect the fact that intelligence and competence are not homogenically spread across demographics, so dividing voting population and non-voting population by races(sex is completely arbitrary.
Or are you under the ipression that every white male is more intelligent than everyone else? What about asians and jews? Aren't those supposedly more intelligent than whites? Then shouldn't they be the ones ruling?
>>7703509
The white man's greatest achievements are unique. European culture is unequivocally transcendent in its complexity from Bach to Tolstoy, from Alexander to Napoleon! What would Aristotle, Nietzche, Plato, Charlemagne, Orwell or Stirner think to see their own kinsmen throw it all away destroy, three millennia id european in the name of " tolerance" and "equality". 'Tis a shame
>>7703426
a resurgence in conservative thought doesn't magically mean we're going to have conservative societies
fascism, traditionalism and white nationalism might sound nice but they're unfeasible systems
read your Nick Land people
>>7703551
Calm down, you're throwing a whole bunch of assumptions into the mix. You did not answer my question at all. We are talking about individuals.
>Stirner
kek
>>7703509
>but you neglect the fact that intelligence and competence are not homogenically spread across demographics
It seems you don't understand IQ and you don't know what an average is. Furthermore, I don't give a shit voting and I especially don't give a shit about females and nonwhites voting, and you're just repeating the same argument over and over assuming I do.
>Or are you under the ipression that every white male is more intelligent than everyone else? What about asians and jews? Aren't those supposedly more intelligent than whites? Then shouldn't they be the ones ruling?
Firstly Jews and Asians are notoriously neurotic and physically lacking; it is no accident that Jews have been kicked out of every nation they have inhabited, and it is no accident that Japan got bitchslapped so hard in WWII that they have now turned to anime and masturbation and are now facing demographic extinction.
There is a balance and the entire history of human civilization reflects that balance: white people. We have dominated the earth since time immemorial and we will continue to.
Just out of curiosity, are you that sandnigger that gets butthurt every time the ME is discussed on /lit/? Your posting style and line of questioning is making my meme senses tingle.
>>7703559
>Stirner
>not The End of Philosophy
With all your talk about individualist tripe, as if it applies to anybody and everybody, I would assume you would be all over Stirner.
Stirner's biggest mistake was thinking everyone is equal.
>>7703555
what does nick land say
>>7703551
>What would [...] Nietzche think to see their own kinsmen throw it all away destroy, three millennia id european in the name of " tolerance" and "equality"
he would probably not be surprised in the slightest
>>7703555
Not the anon you responded to, but I do read Land. He's a Ligotti fanboy and a scientism fetishist. What have you read that implies traditionalism is unfeasible?
The only radical response is to oppose all trappings of modernism and postmodernism (including Land's transhumanism). Europe will on the downward spiral so long as it remains servile to Transatlantic hegemony and Liberal globalisation
>>7703555
>wanting to get cucked by a computer
If you're interested in hard-right reactionary thought, please follow my tumblr (which I set up last week). I don't really know how to find people who are into this line of thought, and I only have one follower as of yet.
http://generousbirdcollection.tumblr.com/
>>7703565
>It seems you don't understand IQ and you don't know what an average is. Furthermore, I don't give a shit voting and I especially don't give a shit about females and nonwhites voting, and you're just repeating the same argument over and over assuming I do.
You're still not replying to my arguments. Let's take a dumb person. that dumb person belongs to a demographic that is, on average, smart. Thus, this person is allowed to vote. Do you not see the problem here?
>randomly talks about japs
Anon, you really need to stop dodging arguments.
>We have dominated the earth since time immemorial and we will continue to.
We have fought over a certain spot on the earth that was denominated to be the fundament of a great empire (the mesopotamian coasts) and thus had a pretty big head start on places like sub-saharan africa where the opportunities for people were basically zero. Meanwhile, great empires have been rising and falling all over the world, like eastern asia or central america without any white influence.
>Just out of curiosity, are you that sandnigger that gets butthurt every time the ME is discussed on /lit/? Your posting style and line of questioning is making my meme senses tingle.
Nah. Again, why so afraid of "samefagging" hiding behind the mask of anonymity?
>>7703576
Yeah, Stirner is great. But it is hillarious that you think stirnerian thought deals in categories like "kinsmen".
>>7703576
>With all your talk about individualist tripe, as if it applies to anybody and everybody
How does individualism not apply to everyone? "Be judged by your personal ability." isn't really exclusive. Whom doesn't it apply to?
>>7700182
We need to dispel this notion that the empire of rome or caesarism was something inherently bad.
Firstly, the empire preceded the longest period of peace in roman history.
Secondly, Rome did not "fall". It split, and both sides were ruled by Theodosius in the late 4th century and Justinian nearly re-united it.
Thirdly, Rome "fell" due to barbarian attacks from the outside and an inability of the native romans to defend against them. Today there is nowhere near the sort of barbarian invasions against the west (no, refugees are not the same as Alaric I, go away).
All these, "HURRR JUST LIKE ROME" arguments are extremely ignorant of history.
The real danger is that the state and corporate hegemony become eternal because there's no new land for those fleeing slavery to banks and governments to go to.
>>7703609
>the mesopotamian coasts
I obviously meant mediterranian, by the way, but same difference.
West is going far down into a shit hole because of collectivism world views
>>7700771
Nietzsche said that marriage was poison for philosophy. He said that truth was a luxury of celibacy, and that a family man would constrain himself for the sake of his family's welfare.
Of course, it might just be an excuse for his lifelong loneliness.
Spengler is great to read as literature, but for historian studies Der Untergang des Abendlandes should be taken with a huge grain of salt because of how overly constructed it is. It's like reading greek mythology to study politics.
>>7702321
Change isn't the right word
>>7700771
It is worth mentioning that Evola doesnt think biological heritage is the be-all and end-all of family relations. He is pro-adopation, or so I remember from reading Against the Modern World. Perhaps in some way he thought that passing his thoughts to his readers is enough as far as having children is concerned.
>>7702235
This is completely irrelevant to the thread and the topic at hand, Spengler did not believe that 'fixing' was possible.
Optimism is cowardice, you cannot fix the west any more than you can fix an 80 year old man. All you can do is prepare the will and testament, till the earth to prepare for a new generation of seeds that will grow a new civilization to replace it.
>>7702114
Trump talks like a blustering idiot because that is what Americans want. He's appealing to a demographic, he has mastered the democratic system.
I am not sure if Trump will be the lord of our winter, but he is certainly the most probable figure since the failure of Hitler.
jesus christ months since i don't visit /lit/ and it's still a shithole filled by knowitall's who know nothing
i bet you are all a bunch of multiculturalism hipsters
>>7704119
I'd respond at length but my organic vegan pâté needs basting.
>>7704079
oo she cute
>>7704079
whoa whoa whoa who is this cutie
>>7702334
>he doesn't think robots can fold clothes
https://youtu.be/5FGVgMsiv1s
Singularity confirmed
>>7704172
Today they're folding clothes, tomorrow they're folding humans.
>>7703608
Looks decent, I'll check it out.
>>7704582
Cheers
>>7704737
Stop posting entartete Kunst.
>>7704961
why?
>>7702778
Chuckle/10
>>7701281
Bad bait.
>>7704079
Yes, Evola said that there is both a physical race and a spirit race, and that, in our times, a physical link would not guaratee a spiritual one.
>>7700771
>Bulius Ebola
>traditionalist
Pick one.
