Suffering
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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
Is suffering meaningless?
I mean, do you reach a certain point where it becomes clear that all of your suffering was for nothing? Despite all that they told you about suffering making you stronger and giving you a sort of insight into certain things... Is it all pointless? I suppose in a way it relates to integrity too but do people who have suffered a great deal in their lives still "lose" so to speak?
Do those celebrities and rich kids and all those who seemingly live comfortably... Do they win, in the end?
I mean, I've near enough read everything that Nietzsche and related folks have written when it comes to suffering and they speak of it as if its a gift but aren't they just justifying their suffering when doing this? After all, he went mad, didn't he?
Could it be that he realised too late that all of his suffering was for nothing? That no matter how much you will not bend and keep your integrity intact, you WILL eventually break?
Is there nothing redeeming or worthwhile in suffering ultimately?
I'd really like to know /lit/
>all suffering is the same
It depends, fuckwit.
>However, one thing that grave illness does is to make you examine familiar principles and seemingly reliable sayings. And there's one that I find I am not saying with quite the same conviction as I once used to: In particular, I have slightly stopped issuing the announcement that "whatever doesn't kill me makes me stronger."
>I love the imagery of struggle. I sometimes wish I were suffering in a good cause, or risking my life for the good of others, instead of just being a gravely endangered patient. Allow me to inform you, though, that when you sit in a room with a set of other finalists, and kindly people bring a huge transparent bag of poison and plug it into your arm, and you either read or don't read a book while the venom sack gradually empties itself into your system, the image of the ardent solider is the very last one that will occur to you. You feel swamped with passivity and impotence: dissolving in powerlessness like a sugar lump in water.
>>7639534
>doesn't contribute anything to the thread
>the meme author
Didn't see that one coming
>>7639513
generally, the more self-consciously you suffer (and subject yourself to the mentality of suffering), the less you take away from it. at some point it's just spiting yourself. so don't worry so much, and do what you gotta do. nobody wins in the end, but your life can be better today.
`Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me.'(Matt. 16:24) To many this saying of Jesus seems hard. But how much harder will it be to hear that word of doom, `Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire'. (Matt.25:41) For those who now cheerfully hear and obey the word of the Cross (I Cor. 1:18) will not tremble to hear the sentence of eternal damnation. The sign of the Cross will appear in the heavens, when Our Lord comes as judge. Then will all the servants of the Cross-, who in their lives conformed themselves to the Crucified, (Rom 8:29) stand with confidence before Christ, their judge.
Why, then, do you fear to take up the Cross-, which is the road to the Kingdom? In the Cross is salvation; in the Cross is life; in the Cross is protection against our enemies; in the Cross is infusion of heavenly sweetness; in the Cross is strength of mind; in the Cross is joy of spirit; in the Cross is excellence of virtue; in the Cross is perfection of holiness. There is no salvation of soul, nor hope of eternal life, save in the Cross. Take up the Cross-, therefore, and follow Jesus, (Matt. 16:24) and go forward into eternal life. (Matt.25:46) Christ has gone before you, bearing His Cross; (John 19:17) He died for you on the Cross, that you also may bear your cross, and desire to die on the cross with Him. For if you die with Him, you will also live with Him. (Rom 6:8) And if you share His sufferings, you will also share His glory.
See how in the Cross all things consist, and in dying on it all things depend. There is no other way to life and to true inner peace, than the way of the Cross and of daily self-denial. Go where you will, seek what you will; you will find no higher way above or safer way below than the road of the Holy Cross. Arrange and order all things to your own ideas and wishes, yet you will still find suffering to endure, whether you will or not; so you will always find the Cross. For you will either endure bodily pain, or suffer anguish of mind and spirit.
At times, God will withdraw from you; at times you will be troubled by your neighbor, and, what is more, you will often be a burden to yourself. Neither can any remedy or comfort bring you relief, but you must bear it as long as God wills. For God desires that you learn to bear trials without comfort, that you may yield yourself wholly to Him, and grow more humble through tribulation. No man feels so deeply in his heart the Passion of Christ as he who has to suffer in like manner. The Cross always stands ready, and everywhere awaits you. You cannot escape it, wherever you flee; for wherever you go, you bear yourself, and always find yourself. Look up or down, without you or within, and everywhere you will find the Cross. And everywhere you must have patience, if you wish to attain inner peace, and win an eternal crown.
>>7639553
If you bear the cross willingly, it will bear you and lead you to your desired goal, where pain shall be no more; but it will not be in this life. If you bear the cross unwillingly, you make it a burden, and load yourself more heavily; but you must needs bear it. If you cast away one cross, you will certainly find another, and perhaps a heavier.
Do you think to escape what no mortal man has been able to escape? Which of the Saints lived without cross or trial? Even our Lord Jesus Christ was never without sorrow and pain, as long as He lived. `Christ must needs suffer,' said He, `and rise again from the dead, and so enter into His glory.'(Luke 24:26) Why, then, do you seek any other road than this royal road of the Holy Cross? The whole life of Christ was a cross and martyrdom; and do you look for rest and selfish pleasure?
You are greatly mistaken if you look for anything save to endure trials, for all this mortal life is full of troubles, (Job 14:1) and everywhere marked with crosses. The further a man advances in the spiritual life, the heavier and more numerous he finds the crosses, for his ever-deepening love of God makes more bitter the sorrows of his earthly exile.
Yet a man who is afflicted in many ways is not without solace and comfort, for he perceives the great benefit to be reaped from the bearing of his cross. For while he bears it with a good will, the whole burden is changed into hope of God's comfort. And the more the body is subdued by affliction, the more is the spirit strengthened by grace within. Sometimes he is so greatly comforted by the desire to suffer adversity for love of conforming to the Cross of Christ, that he would not wish to be without grief and pain; (2 Cor. 4:10) for he knows that the more he can suffer for His sake, the more pleasing he will be to God. This desire does not spring from man's own strength, but from the grace of Christ, which can and does effect such great things in the frail frame of man; so that which nature fears and avoids, he boldly meets and loves through ardor of spirit.
Man is not by nature inclined to carry the cross, to love the cross, to chasten the body, and bring it into subjection; (I Cor. 9:27) to refuse honors, to submit to insults with goodwill, to despise himself and welcome disparagement; to bear all adversity and loss, and to desire no kind of prosperity in this world. And if you trust in your own strength, you will be unable to achieve any of these things. But if you trust in the Lord, you will be given strength from Heaven, and the world and the flesh will become subject to your will. Neither will you fear your enemy the Devil, if you are armed with faith and signed with the Cross of Christ.
>>7639557
Resolve, then, as a good and faithful servant of Christ, manfully to bear the cross of your Lord, who was crucified for love of you. Prepare yourself to endure many trials and obstacles in this vale of tears; for such will be your lot wherever you are, and you will encounter them wherever you conceal yourself. It must needs be so; nor is there any remedy or means of escape from ills and grief s; you must endure them. Drink lovingly the cup of your Lord, (Matt. 20:23) if you wish to be His friend, and to share all with Him. Leave consolations to God, to dispose as He wills. But set yourself to endure trials, regarding them as the greatest of all comforts, `for the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come', (Rom. 8:18) even though you alone were to endure them all.
When you have arrived at that state when trouble seems sweet and acceptable to you for Christ's sake, then all is well with you, for you have hound paradise upon earth. But so long as suffering is grievous to you and you seek to escape it, so long will it go ill with you, for the trouble you try to escape will pursue you everywhere.
If you steel yourself -, as you must - to suffer and to die, all will go better with you, and you will find peace. For although, like Saint Paul, you were `caught up into the third heaven',(2 Cor. 12:4) you would not on this account be secured against suffering further adversity. For Jesus says, `I will show him how great things he must suffer for My Name.'(Acts 9:16) Therefore, be prepared to suffer, if you wish to love Jesus and serve Him forever.
Oh, if only you were worthy to suffer for the Name of Jesus! How great and enduring a glory would be yours! How great would be the joy of the Saints of God! How edified your friends would be! For all men commend patience, although few are willing to suffer. It is right that you should suffer a little for the sake of Christ, since many suffer greater things for worldly motives.
Be assured of this, that you must live a dying life. And the more completely a man dies to self, the more he begins to live to God. (Rom. 6:9 ) No man is fit to understand heavenly things, unless he is resigned to bear hardships for Christ's sake. Nothing is more acceptable to God, and nothing more salutary for you, than to suffer gladly for Christ's sake. And if it lies in your choice, you should choose rather to suffer hardships for Christ's sake, than to be refreshed by many consolations; for thus you will more closely resemble Christ and all His Saints. For our merit and spiritual progress does not consist in enjoying such sweetness and consolation, but rather in the bearing of great burdens and troubles.
>>7639562
Had there been a better way, more profitable to the salvation of mankind than suffering, then Christ would have revealed it in His word and life. But He clearly urges both His own disciples and all who wish to follow Him to carry the cross, saying, `If any will come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me.'(Mark 8:34) Therefore, when we have read and studied all things, let thus be our final resolve: 'that through much tribulation we must enter the Kingdom of God.'(Acts 14:22)
You could say the same about any emotion being pointless. Why did you single out suffering? Probably because it's at the forefront of your mind these days.
Hope this helps.
>>7639553
>God desires that you learn to bear trials without comfort, that you may yield yourself wholly to Him, and grow more humble through tribulation.
wow, thanks god
i guess now i can be happy that i'm being burned alive by your followers
>>7639568
IT'S OK WHEN GOD DOES IT
t. Christian apologists
>>7639553
>>7639557
>>7639562
>>7639566
Suppose in some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering. So far as we can see, the fawn’s intense suffering is pointless. For there does not appear to be any greater good such that the prevention of the fawn’s suffering would require either the loss of that good or the occurrence of an evil equally bad or worse. Nor does there seem to be any equally bad or worse evil so connected to the fawn’s suffering that it would have had to occur had the fawn’s suffering been prevented. Could an omnipotent, omniscient being have prevented the fawn’s apparently pointless suffering? The answer is obvious, as even the theist will insist. An omnipotent, omniscient being could have easily prevented the fawn from being horribly burned, or, given the burning, could have spared the fawn the intense suffering by quickly ending its life, rather than allowing the fawn to lie in terrible agony for several days. Since the fawn’s intense suffering was preventable and, so far as we can see, pointless, doesn’t it appear that … there do exist instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse?
Read the conspiracy against the human race anon. It nicely demonstrates how all the nonsense we use to justify our suffering is merely self-trickery.
>>7639543
Interesting... Depressing too.
>>7639550
>the more self-consciously you suffer
But you're always going to know that you're suffering, one way or another? If the suffering is great then how can you not know of it and think of it, constantly? Which is why I believe alot of writers begin to use suffering as a sort of pressure valve... As a way of making themselves feel better about their lives being horrible to some degree.
>>7639575
But that makes sense. God is literally the author of what is and is not good.
DAE think that suffering sucks and that life would be better if bad things stopped happening to us?
>>7639598
For like four religions if you're talking about the Abrahamic god. If you don't subscribe to those cults his word doesn't mean much at all.
>>7639568
>>7639589
> Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
> But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” ln all this Job did not sin with his lips.
> Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow 8we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit”; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? rIt is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, s“If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.
>>7639617
I'll never understand the people who have a problem with Job. It's the greatest book of the Old Testament.
>>7639567
>Hope this helps
Not really.
The whole point of the thread was to question whether or not suffering is worthless, not a tumblr blog about myself.
I'm just interested to see if it is ultimately worth less than we are all led to believe...especially when it comes to the ''arts''
>>7639631
Yeah thanks for responding. That was more or less a "shit post."
I've suffered for a real long time and I don't think it means anything. I don't think it makes me stronger necessarily, although I'm maybe too far inside it to be a proper judge. All I know is my family wants to see it end desperately.
It's all I've known for my adult life and I think it deadens my capacity for any sort of advanced or elevated thought. I'm not getting anything more out of life due to it; that's for sure.
Hope this helps.
>>7639591
Thanks, will look into it.
>>7639598
I don't mind religion at all and have found many thing within it but paragaphs of various bible passages is just unnecessary.
>>7639599
oh look he's being sarcastic... wanker.
>>7639604
>If you don't subscribe to those cults his word doesn't mean much at all.
I'm not him but the bible is great, man. I'm not religious either...
i always think that nietzsche it´s a kind of ironic with "what doesn´t kill us makes us stronger". it isn´t a critique to the utilitarian and evolutionist thinking?
time to read Nietzsche's daddy, anon: Schopenhauer.
Look, I don't know what you're going through, and I don't know if I can help. But I can tell you this: I've been there before, and trust me, it gets better. PM me if you need to talk.
>>7639668
I assumed you meant other edgy life affirmers to be honest.
Have you read Cioran? Pretty cool guy.
>>7639666
Again, why assume this is a personal thing and try make some silly, completely unoriginal remark? If you didn't know... ''Suffering'' is a pretty big deal when it comes to literature and philosophy, mate.
>>7639672
Fair enough.
I've read A Short History of Decay and yeah Cioran is cool but fuck me, if he isn't one fucking depressing fuck.
>"If you have not contributed to a catastrophe, you will vanish without a trace." -
>"I loathe this life I idolize."
>"A human being possessed by a belief and not eager to pass it on to others is a phenomenon alien to the earth, where our mania for salvation makes life unbearable."
I'm just trying to find writers who get very specific when speaking of suffering and integrity etc.
>>7639683
I think he meant to link my post; I'm the one that accidentally blogged.
>>7639513
Yes.
>>7639666
Hey nice 666. If you were trying to actually offer guidance drop me a line.
Is that shit allowed here?
>>7639738
Guess not famalam Im going to /soc/ I guess
>>7639513
I suffer from a chronic illness, so I've dealt with my share of pain and suffering. This is my blog post on the topic.
While, yes Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Kafka and countless others all went off the deep end died because of it. But countless others also made it through and lived ended up living an extraordinary life (Dostoevsky, Frankl, Camus). They would not be the people they were without suffering. They would not have put forward ideas and presented arguments, that to the majority of people (not /lit/izens) are groundbreaking and noteworthy. Almost every goddamn author I enjoy reading for the sake of reading has had to deal with pretty awful shit. That's probably not a coincidence.
And even beyond that, I believe that everybody suffers. Nobody ever gets their needs met 100% of the time and so everyone has to deal with shit. And yes while those with power might seem better off, they still have to deal with suffering because it's relative and it's universal. Not only that but since they never fully acknowledge it they can never really deal with it.
This isn't to romanticize it in any way. I would rather go through life throughout. But on the other hand I think that when it comes to really connecting with others there isn't anything stronger then really suffering. Anyone can be happy, but it takes balls to both be around someone suffering and to be that person. I think might be what you missed OP, that we don't have to carry this burden by ourselves all the time. That sharing it with others is both really fucking difficult and yet rewarding at the same time.
>>7639955
Fucking this.
You just summed up everything that I was going to post, as strange as that sounds.
/thread
>>7639513
You said you've read N. then you'd know he said it CAN make you stronger, turn the shit into gold, it's a choice even when it isn't transparent.
The more your only goal is truth, and that is all you seek, the more you open yourself up to suffering, and a heavier weight to carry, this still with the knowledge that, yes you will die, and before that, you'll likely suffer cognitive decline of a kind you can't predict, and a variety bodily pain before you die, all of this must be accepted, and transformed into being a part of your own momentum, making what you do matter more.
It's an extremely fragile thing, that can collapse easily, and it's much more convenient to just escape into the myriad of distractions available, but then your conscience will gnaw at you.
