The Iliad
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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
Why am I so upset Hector died?
Because Achilles and the Greeks are assholes.
you are probably secretly gay for hektor famalamadingdong.
no shame he was qt as fuck.
Why am I so upset that you (spoiler)can't cover up text(spoiler/)
because all his ability couldn't save the gods plan to coming into action and screwing him over
>>7556534
dude...SPOILER
>>7556571
It's been 3000 years man.
>>7556571
homer constantly reminds us of the fall
>>7556534
Do we look like fucking mind readers?
I'm gonna bake some sage pie now.
is hektor supposed to be the guy we look up to and akhilleus is the warning?
>>7557594
nearly all of them are supposed to be the guy we look up to. the only person you're not supposed to look up to his the hunchback because hunchbacks are oogie.
>>7557594
No. Hector got cocky.
>>7557606
Achilles was a pussy ass faggot that wasn't about shit. Remember the time the river god had him running like a bitch? Smh senpai
I felt the same way, especially after Hector's dragged. Could Achilles even be considered a hero, if it weren't for the last book
Relevant shakespeare
Diomedes: The bruit is, Hector's slain, and by Achilles.
Ajax: If it be so, yet bragless let it be;
Great Hector was a man as good as he.
Hector's the only one fighting without god mode activated. He has a family & he risks everything in fighting - knowing that they are doomed if he dies. He is afraid, but fights anyway, because he can't abandon his brothers in arms. He's the perfect foil to Achilles.
>>7557692
Achilles was the Greek hero, you gotta remember how seriously they took honour.
>>7556534
wow nice spoiler asshole thanks
>>7556534
Because he was the most likeable character.
>>7557606
You're not supposed to look up to the cowardly Paris and his whore Helen.
Penelope on the other hand is a model for all women.
>>7557709
Hectoring had the help of Apollo and other gods several times.
The only hero that actually had zero help from the gods was telemonian Ajax.
>>7557709
He risks his own men as well
>>7558444
And those from the "countries" around him.
>>7556534
It was a death sent upon him through manipulation and degradation. Atoned for through the theft of his body too. It was truly gruesome
Why would the gods want hector's death this badly? He was an honest man, fought valiently for his homeland and cared for his compatriots. Wasn't he also favored by the gods like achilles?
It wasnt helens fault, it was the goddesses' and odysseus for making that pledge. Hellen is a pawn.
Is paris a greek nane? I have never heard of it being used in the ancient world. What does it mean? Were the trojans related to the greeks? I know the greeks and the trojans are set apart, but are they "fringe greeks" like the macedonians?
>>7558638
It was Destiny/fate, not even the gods can change that (without significant repercussions).
>>7558906
>Breaking a wedding vow and running away with another man to another country.
>not her fault
Ok
>>7556534
Because you're a manchild with very little going on in your life, so a fictional character from 3,000 years ago dying actually upsets you.
>>7558945
childish reply tbqh
why does no one mention based Diomedes in these threads? He's the real hero. One of the longest sections of the Illiad is devoted to him, during which he
>>gets Athena to give him super vision
>>Kills a fuckton of people
>>Doesn't even need weapons, uses boulders most of the time
>>Injures Ares and that bitch Aphrodite
>>All of this happens in 1 day.
He also called Achilles out on his crybaby bullshit. Seriously, the Illiad is just a story framing Diomedes bad-assery
How old are Akhilleus and Hector supposed to be? Mid 30s? How old would Aeneas be?
Nestor is the oldest of the greeks, correct me if im wrong but wasnt he from the same generation as hercules, theseus, perseus, etc?
>>7559978
There is nothing to argue about. Everyone knows and agrees diomedes is a boss. The most noble, level headed, brave and one of the best warriors even though he is youngest of all the hero's.
Not much to discuss, desu.
>>7558906
Naming conventions in the Iliad and odyssey are widely written about in classical studies. You've got to remember that the Trojan was supposedly fought roughly 800 years before the classical era from whence we get most of our information and writing. Many of the names of Greek heroes kind of fall out of fashion in those intervening years.
As far as the name "Paris" (Πάρις) goes it's probably Luwian (Hittite related). It's worth noting he is sometimes called Alexander (Αλέξανδρος) which means leader of men.
The Trojans are not Greeks. During the classical era (and even possibly in the time of Homer's composing) eastern Anatolia is firmly in the Greek orbit. But the era of Greek colonization takes place in the 700s, too late for the Trojans to be Greeks (or fringe Greeks as you call them).
>>7560513
Achilles was about 25 when he died (this means he was 15-16 when the war started).
Nestor was oldest and from the generation before, so was maybe around 45-50.
>>7559978
Don't forget about Diomedes and based Odysseus stealing the horse of Rhesus from the Thracians.
Or when Diomedes meets Glaucon in battle, realizes that his grandfather, Oeneus, was guest friends with Glaucon's grandfather, Bellerophon, and that they must carry on the tradition of mutual respect. Some humanity in all the mindless slaughter.
>>7557594
>tries to look pretentious with the original spelling
>akhilleus
Just fucking off yourself man.
MY NAME ITH TIDYDESE
heuheuheu
>>7560627
Keeeeeek
>>7560513
Nestor was an argonaut.
>>7560633
Which is the same generation as Heracles, who was also an Argonaut, albeit briefly.
>>7560633
The Greeks went to space?
>>7560678
Yes. Until the whites came and destroyed their spaceship technologies.
>>7556534
For the death of a good man is a sorrow to all of mankind
>>7556534
>mfw spoilers
Re-e
achilles vs jesus, who would win?
whaat else did achilles do before the trojan war? is he truly the greatest greek warrior ever? what about hercules? achilles must have had his kids when he was really young since he died young himself and he has a son thatlater avenges him.
>>7557699
Here, here!
>>7561226
Hear*
Teucer is the true hero of the Trojan War:
Menelaus:
"In my life I’ve seen a man who shouted with a reckless tongue at his sailors, pushing them to go on sailing, right through a terrible storm. But then, when the storm came, when the wild winds began to charge, this man was heard no more. Not a sound from him! He crawled under his cloak and just lie there. The sailors rushed about, trampled all over him, as their needs demanded and he still didn’t utter a sound! Just like you, Teucer! You and your fierce shouting!
Well, some little cloud will come and blow a mighty storm upon you and upon your tongue and put an end to all your noise!"
Teucer:
"And I’ve seen a man, too, Menelaus. A very stupid man who harassed people in their time of trouble until a man, whose heart was just like mine, saw him and spoke to him. He told him, “man, do not hurt the dead because if you do, you’ll get hurt.”
That was the advice he gave to that stupid man; and that stupid man was you, Menelaus.
Is that too difficult a riddle for you?"
Anyone who disses Achilles (as moderns are wont to do) is a fucking fool. Achilles is the greatest hero in literature bar none. Why? Because out of all the Greek and Trojan meatheads slugging away at each other for 10 years, Achilles is the only one to stop and think: "Isn't this all completely pointless? Do I really want to die in battle and never see my homeland again?". As a character Achilles comes face-to-face with war, death, nihilism and challenges the heroic ethos itself. It's the core of the poem and absolutely fucking gripping, so much more interesting than the one-dimensional sociopaths that make up the rest of the Greek army, dumb jocks like Diomedes who go around executing Trojan prisoners for teh lulz.
Hector is alright, but is too hubristic.
Did the greeks of the iliad speak the same greek dialect or were they already split?
>>7562516
Homeric Greek is a weird hodgepodge of different dialects, so probably not.
>>7560561
In Athens the hoplites fought until 60 (I realise they aren't exactly comparable times) and I think at some point he refers to using a staff and his white hair, so more like 70 desu. Remember he's meant to be REALLY old, and well looked after humans could live that long in any period, it's just the number who do drasticly falls.
>the part where his body is getting desecrated
>>7558936
>being forced by Aphrodite to do so
>her fault
Why were Trojans hated by Gods?
>>7562570
Athena and Hera hated Troy because Paris snubbed them.
>>7557594
The Illiad is from the pre- and post-literate Greek Dark Age. It doesn't have traditional narrative features because it's basically the/a cornerstone of Western literature.
You can't think of it in terms of sympathy or even modern narrative structure. That's why it's so weird to most people when it "ends" so abruptly without resolving the issue of the war. Most people reconcile it in a more nuanced modern way, by saying "oh, it's a vignette in the larger war," but it's not even that. It's just that the Iliad doesn't fit later narrative structures which partly grew out of it and the culture which produced it.
Stop trying to think of it in terms of modern tropes like heroes and anti-heroes and sympathetic tragic falls etc. Some of that stuff is in there but it's better to approach it on its own terms than try to work backwards from your own. It's a story about the qualities and experiences of men that were perceived to be important/spiritually fundamental by poets and their audiences in the Greek Dark Age. The usual major aspects:
http://www.uh.edu/~cldue/3307/time.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleos
Try to understand it as an illiterate Greek nobleman or freeman who probably not infrequently was levied to defend his crops, or who had been in the kind of fighting "Homer" is describing, probably watching relatives and friends dying in the ways Homer described, but who also had the experience of time and kleos himself, who had inflicted the same kinds of wounds on young men and old men, stripped the mutilated dead of their armour, etc. Your fundamental assumptions about the logic of the world turn on issues of pride, glory, strength, greatness, but also hubris and the fall of the arrogant.
It helps to try to picture the characters of the Iliad NOT as complete and densely "packed" protagonists in the sense we're often used to these days, with each character sometimes representing a philosophical argument or spiritual stance or something. That might be partly true for someone like Achilles, where there is a stark dilemma, but for most of the story it's more like the underlying philosophies and attitudes of the Greeks are playing themselves out across and through all the men of the war. Every guy who has glory has to grapple with hubris as a result, but it's not a simplistic story about the inevitability of hubris either.
Dodds is pretty good desu
http://www.acampbell.org.uk/bookreviews/r/dodds.html
>>7562531
but the gods protected his body from any damage I thought
>>7562583
>You can't think of it in terms of sympathy
I don't mean you can't be sympathetic once you understand them on their own terms (however you hash out the historicism/hermeneutics, whatever), just that you can't be immediately sympathetic, like "wow, I can't like Odysseus, he's just a dick."
>>7560627
Oh man what the fuck
Thersites was right.
>>7562570
there were gods on either side, The judgement of paris is the main reason hera and athena are angry. Aphrodite likes helen and paris, both are beautiful. Other reasons as well. Ares doesn't seem to have a favourite.
Overall, the reason troy had to fall was because it was fated. That's all zeus is doing, assuring fate runs its course
>>7562583
Top post desu.
If anyone is more interested check out Nagy's book Best of the Acheans (free online) on the Greek heroic ethos.
http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/nagy/BofA.html
>>7558936
Achilles is probably in his 30-40's seeing how he has a son who was literally within fighting age at the end of the war.
Hector would probably be mid 30's to 40's seeing how he was around in Priam's court when Menelaus and Odysseus went to peacefully get Helen before the war, and the fact that he's put in charge of the Trojan forces not only because he's one of the fifty sons of Priam.
Aeneas would probably in his early 30's. He isn't referred much as a experienced older peer by Hector in the Iliad or Rhesus, but still old enough to have a son at the end of the war whose old enough to run on foot on his own from Troy, and not be carried by Aeneas -- not to mention there's a point in the Aeneid where his son is old enough to draw a bow and fight and lead a few men.
Nestor, from what I recall in Metamorphoses is supposed to be uber-old. Like in his 80's. Old enough that he can't fight in battles or compete in the chariot race.
>>7556534
The greatest all of men died. You have every reason to be upset.
Is odysseus also referred by the geeks as "tricky" or just as "cunning /intelligent"? The romans seemed to view him negatively, is it because of his scheming AND the fact that he helped in the fall of troy or just one of those?
>>7562768
He was called "tricky" and a "immoral" by the Classical Greeks.
In Philoctetes, he threatens to kill Philoctetes, and later, Achilles' son, if he doesn't give up his bow, and threatens to kill Philoctetes' father when the war is over; Achilles' son goes on a whole rant about how people who lie to get there way like him are evil which is clearly condemning him as a character.
In Hecuba, he basically compels Agememnon to carry out a sacrifice of the daughters of Priam and Hecuba to Achilles' shade even though it wasn't necessary to do-so in-order to return home or anything. He acts cunningly when Hecuba pleads to him to not to do so bringing up how she saved his life when he went disguised as a beggar to spy in Troy and got caught and taken to Priam's court, where she showed him mercy and released him, and pleads to him to sacrifice herself instead if he honors the Gods. To which Odysseus replies that he's technically in the right because she's not the one being sacrificed, and because of that he acts like he filled his life-debt to her even though she wasn't even picked to be sacrificed.
In the Trojan Women, the herald for the Greeks condemns him for compelling the Greeks to carry out the sacrifice mention above and for calling to kill Hector's son by throwing him down Troy's ramparts before Hecuba gets sent away as a slave to him.
In Iphigenia in Aulis, he's the one that pushed Agamemnon to sacrifice his daughter to Artemis for the Greek fleet to in-order set sail to Troy, as it was said that he threatened to set the Greek ranks against him if he didn't sacrifice her, and made him lie to her and Clytemnestra to tell them that she was getting married to Achilles in Aulis.
In Helen, he's called a lying scoundrel by Teucer for his role in Ajax's death, and he brings up other supposed offenses of him..
>tfw no patroclus bf
>>7562583
spot on post, except a nitpick
>Stop trying to think of it in terms of ... heroes and anti-heroes
Its perfectly acceptable to understand the Iliad through its heroes and what it means to be heroic.
But i get what youre saying.
Wait. He dies?
>>7564387
none of those are canon.
>>7565055
What do you mean?
Would the average greek or roman know speeches from the plays by heart?
What do you guys think of Senecas plays?
Favorite female character from that whole mythology?
>>7562583
>Dodds is pretty good desu
>http://www.acampbell.org.uk/bookreviews/r/dodds.html
That book is fucking amazing, good rec.
>>7564387
These are all plays by Euripides who has an ax to grind against the Athenian state. In Athens, Odysseus is hailed as the quintessential Greek hero, perhaps even more than Achilles.
Compare Sophocles' favorable treatment of Odysseus in Ajax vs all the Euripides plays you just posted. Odysseus is the hero for the classical era, an period that eschews brute strength (at least nominally) and idolizes intelligence/craftiness. The death of Ajax is supposed to symbolize the end of timê and birth of mêtis as the guiding principles of the Greeks.
>>7565227
>What do you mean?
I think what the other poster means by "they are not canon" is that they are not part of the homeric canon but a reinterpretation of the homeric themes to make a commentary on the Greek's contemporary classical society.
>Would the average Greek or Roman know speeches from the plays by heart?
The average member of the cognoscenti would have. Lower class would not.
>What do you guys think of Seneca's plays?
Marginally inferior philosophy than the Greeks, far inferior poetry.
>Favorite female character from that whole mythology?
Atalanta is pretty great. You can check her out in the Metamorphoses. Camilla is based too.
>>7565330
This but I wouldn't say Odysseus was /the/ hero for the classical age, I think it was multipolar and it at least showed how Athens would be reflected in the wider greek point of view. Reliance on intelligence being displayed as dishonest in a world of manly men.
I mean I don't know but contrast with the Athenian portrayal of Theseus.
>>7561268
Literally burst out laughing.
>>7565330
>all plays by Euripides
Wrong, Philoctetes is by Sophocles. A pretty late one, actually, written in the twilight of his life and at the peak of his craft, if Oedipus at Colonus is anything to go by, which was written around the same time.
So I dunno what to do with your otherwise interesting thesis, that Sophocles was mostly positive about Odysseus as some sort of ideal hero for the classical era against whom Euripides was trying to be culturally and politically subversive.
I think any shrewd Athenian would have seen a role model in Odysseus, yet nevertheless traditional notions of honor, at least publicly, were still the espoused norm. Consider Pericles funeral oration.
I guess I'm saying Sophocles probably embraced a nuanced view of Odysseus. The portrayal in Philoctetes isn't completely flattering, but I think that what Odysseus wants to achieve in that play (the reconciliation of Philoctetes with the city) is ultimately best for everyone. Primarily for him, secondarily for the body politic, and only accidentally for Philoctetes himself. Phil's pain and anger are made secondary compared to the needs of the city (Odysseus' public rhetoric), and his reconciliation will speed the end of the war (Odysseus' innermost, self-centered desire).
It's all kinda shockingly modern and amoral sounding to me, actually.
How do you consider Plato's treatment of Odysseus, esp in the Republic? How does it fit into to your idea of what he meant to the classical Athenians?
