If you legitimately like this book, you must be a socially jilted, ranty, unattractive, angry manlet.
4/10
>>7520475
I was and it stopped me being that.
>>7520482
Tbh though I do find it harder to like now. It's sort of like a ladder out of darkness, more function than art.
Is that why it's recommended so highly here? It's like /lit/'s version of Welcome to the NHK?
>>7521883
It's a really honest and accurate depiction of the 4chan ethos, from about 150 years ago. There's not much more to explain its popularity here.
>>7520475
>tfw read this book 4 times and still have no idea what he's talking about in the first part
>normies will never understand this book
laughing-girls.jpg
>>7522111
Pretty sure it's just the incoherent ramblings of a mad man
Those days equivalent to shitposting
>>7522111
I thought I was the only one. Apparently it is philosophical but eh. I enjoyed it nevertheless. Not the best of Dostoyevsky, certainly not the worst.
It's hilarious how this book has gone right over the heads of every single person in this thread
Dostoevsky wrote the underground man the way he did in order to say "wow look at this loser don't be like this guy"
He is the equivilant of the fedora-wearing 2deep4u kid
He's supposed to be despised, not admired you fucking morons
>>7522175
What do you mean 'gone over our heads'? Virtually nobody has admired The Underground Man in this thread. Take your head out of your fucking ass and stop trying too hard.
To note, I despised him when I finished reading. It is the only book in recent memory I came out of with a sour mood thanks to the character alone. But as a novella, it's not bad. I think The Double is the best novella Dostoyevsky wrote. But this comes a close second - maybe even first if I'm feeling happy.
>>7522191
>>7520475
>>7522073
>>7522111
>>7522116
All people who either admit to not understanding his ramblings, identify with them, or think liking the books means identifying with him. And the overwhelming response here on /lit/ to this book is consistently "i identify with the underground man so much" or something to that extent.
I'm not a manlet but the rest sounds like me.
>>7522256
But what you have linked isn't tantamount to admiration. That is my point. If you identify with this man it's a really awful thing and you ought to try mend yourself. Not that you yourself require that advice.
>>7522256
Identification != admiration
>>7522175
What a simplistic view of the book. I really hope you didn't use those memes to earnestly describe a character.
>>7520475
". . . I did not even know the name of Dostoevski just
a few weeks ago — uneducated person that I am, not
reading any journals. An accidental reach of the arm in
a bookstore brought to my attention L'esprit souterrain (Notes from Underground),
a work just translated into French. The instinct of kinship spoke up immediately; my joy was
extraordinary: I must go back all the way to my first
acquaintance with Stendhal's Rouge et Noir to remember an equal joy."
-Nietzsche on NFU
>>7522295
Fixing an underground personality goes a lot further than just being a socialite or doing something. First and foremost an underground personality wouldn't see anything to be fixed, so mending oneself is going to be impossible. The only real solution to the underground is to fake it.
>>7522175
Dostoevsky's "don't be like this guy" are the nihilists who want to be ubermenschen. The Underground Man is an extremely intelligent, comedic and tragic. It's not a model for what you should or should not be. He is a pathetic man, but he chose to be pathetic and knows he is pathetic. He is not like /r9k/, because /r9k/ are prisoners of their pathetic lives, whereas the Underground Man is aggressively pathetic. In today's terms, he'd wear and fedora and and a trenchcoat because they are "cinematic" ("literary"), fully knowing they are pathetic And then something would happen where he actually gets into a cinematic situation, and he'd intentionally fuck it up because he wants to be pathetic as an expression of his freedom.
>>7522452
Except fedora wearers aren't aware of their situation, it's the other way around.
Tripfag please.
>>7522462
It's like you didn't even read his post
>>7520475
NOTE FROM THE UNDERGROUUND
THE PANGS OF REGRET GO 'ROUND AND AROUUUUND
>>7522462
holy shit are you retarded or really didnt read the guy's post?
>>7520475
this may be the most pseudo-intellectual thing i have read on this board
>>7522731
How am I supposed to interpret it then if you're so smart
>>7522731
Exactly what I thought. You only use the buzzword 'pseudo-intellectual' when you're presented with dissenting opinion.
back2pol with you
>>7522452
this guy knows
>>7523077
Exactly what I thought. You only use the buzzword 'back2pol' when you're presented with dissenting opinion.
back2reddit with you
>>7520482
Holy shit this. The book is like a window into the future for social retards.
>>7520482
how do you stop being manlet?
I think if there is some redemption - not redemption, but a vague impression of it - to being an underground man is that Notes from the Underground exists. This book is a mirror to an underground man, a true psychological mirror, and therefore has the value of a mirror. One can admire a picture, enjoy a picture, be moved by a picture, learn from a picture. That is what reading generally is, god bless it. But a mirror is a whole different experience. Dostoevsky carefully wrote the narration of the underground man to be hostile to the reader, as if while looking at the mirror with disgust it looks back at you in disgust. The genius of it is that if you even if you identify with underground man, you still loathe him.
I resemble the protagonist in his youth and I am unironically becoming the person he ended up being.
>>7520482
Yep. I read it during an acid trip. I could vividly project how the course of my then-current beliefs and attitudes would land me right in the place of the Underground Man a few years down the line.
8/10 experience, soul-shattering, unbridled horror.
>>7524404
But why would you do that to yourself
Seriously why
I'll still agree with him that a man should do as he wants, not necessarily what's "good" for him, spooks be damned.
those everyman's library covers are fucking ace
>>7524490
how do you read during an acid trip?
when I did it I could hardly walk straight
>>7524490
dude
drugs
lmao
>>7525778
I recently got an Everyman book for Christmas. One of the best I have ever received.
>>7520475
I think the comedy in Notes from Underground must have went straight over your head.
>>7520475
I wrote a term paper on this novel because I didn't feel like reading the medieval options, and did alright. My TA wouldn't tolerate me praising the dude as being avant grade, edgy, & 2deep4u, she only gave me a good grade when I wrote about what an awful, unreliable, mentally ill narrator the man is. Top kek.
Hunger by Knut Hamsun is similar in its ramblings, yet a thousand times better.
>>7522175
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruC8OrAYqCo
>>7522111
>>7522149'
read quite a while ago- translation for you relevant to here:
>holding onto specific beliefs/habits may close you off and make you an angry basement dweller for all eternity
>why willingly subject yourself to suffering bruh? for your "Values"? "pride"? (he uses the term virtuous) get over yourself/selfishness
it was basically just summarizing the thought system that led the protagonist to where he ended up.... all alone and bitter.
basically this >>7521883 >>7522073
>>7520475
I don't think so, I think a good reader can empathize with a character that's different than them and take something away from the experience. The biggest thing I related to was the ceaseless thoughts and the inner conflict the character goes through. Im not as much like that now. I do see how the book can be a chore to read to someone though. Following this character's thoughts can be exhausting lol
>>7522382
>First and foremost an underground personality wouldn't see anything to be fixed
Where do you get this from?
The Underground man despises himself. He's an awful human being and he's well aware of it. Even that whore pity-fucked him because of the incoherent ramblings of a low self-esteem lonely and angry person.
>>7528597
>Even that whore pity-fucked him
uh, pretty sure he spaghettied when he got his chance bro.... shit was hard to read
>>7522452
I thought the Underground man DID want to change, but was unable to ignore the little details that enerve him in other people.
If he was content with his own pathetic solitude, why would he try to make friends at work, or go to that dinner with his former collegues, or worry about what a no-name whore thinks of him?
He's a well aware sour tragic figure that WANTS to change but is unable to.
>>7528609
Nope. He spaghettied AFTER fucking her. Instead of trying to pursue a relationship with a woman who could see beyond his manerisms and rudeness (into his solitude and pain) he tried to PAY her, ultimately transforming a real human interaction (maybe the first one in years) into a simple, carnal transaction.
In my honest, plebeian opinion the Underground man should neither arise digust nor empathy in the reader (at least not as a primary emotion) but pity.
>>7525786
If you've got a high tolerance or take a low dose reading is fun and enlightening. I'd stick only to fiction that isn't very challenging, though.
>>7528643
right right, i read it a while ago
>the Underground man should neither arise digust nor empathy
i see him as a warning as to what could happen if you fall too deep into chan culture/redpill/etc type shit too hard... it was happening to me around the time i read it... gave me some perspective. i feel like a lot of young dudes could be going through the same thing now a days
>>7525786
at lower doses i'd imagine it would be very engrossing.
>the book is bad because I don't like the character
>>7528643
empathy is requisite for pity
>>7522452
>ITT: Characters that remind you of yourself
>For me it’s Le Underground Man – intelligent, nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humor.
>>7522175
>characters are meant to be either admired or despised
Even worse than OP
>>7528687
this is nearly as bad as posting anime
>>7528764
Almost about bad as complaining about (an image of an) anime (character) on 4chan.
>>7528597
No, she had sex with him because he paid her. After he talked to her, she fell in love with him. Then she came over to his abode and he intentionally spaghettied.
He's not an awful person at all. He'd like to be, because then at least he'd be something. He is a man without an identity, and the identity he strives for is to a pathetic, awful repulsive man, and the sole reason he wants to be all these, is because he is at war with formulated happiness, he consciously rejects everything that should make him in happy in favor of everything that is pathetic and tragic (which comes out comedic, despite his best efforts to make it totally repulsive), out of spite toward the idea of formulated happiness. Because he wants to express his freedom, he intentionally subverts what makes sense and what isn't socially retarded, and you will of course say, "What on earth is the matter with you? Are you a fool? It's so obvious," and he would reply, "Maybe I want to be a fool? Maybe I prefer to be a free fool to someone who is not a fool out of automation instead of choice. Maybe I'd rather be unhappy out of a freedom to choose to be unhappy, than taking what would make me happy for granted, because maybe the freedom to choose happiness or unhappiness, consciously, is where the highest and most fundamental happiness lies."
This ties in with the vital importance of free will in Christianity. We have to have the opportunity to reject the happiness of God, or else the happiness of God is no different than felicific calculus The Underground Man expresses the same character as the freethinker in hell in the Brothers Karamazov, he rejects heaven because he is asserting his freedom. At the same time, this same freedom is what drives Christian affirmation: refusing to make peace with 2 + 2 = 4, is exactly what Christians do from a rationalist perspective, because believing the Gospels go against the laws of nature and all common sense.
>>7528434
If you think the message was "don't hold specific beliefs/habits" then you missed the point completely.
>>7528959
Can Dostoevsky be the new Nietzsche? Seems like so many people who read him completely misunderstand him.
>>7527488
>she
Typical dumb cunt couldn't see the genius in the Underground Man.
>>7528976
>Can Dostoevsky be the new Nietzsche?
he's the old nietzsche
>Seems like so many people who read him completely misunderstand him.
not his fault people are retarded.
>>7528771
/lit/ is a western board, fuck off with your weebshit.
>>7529096
By "new Nietzsche", I mean fulfilling Nietzsche's function on /lit/. I already know Dostoevsky explored pretty much every single idea Nietzsche did before Nietzsche did.
>>7525791
Cunt
So are we not supposed to be like the Underground Man asserting and exercising our freedom?
>>7529266
Freedom from what? He's a prisoner of himself.
>>7529266
>are we supposed to be like
>are we not supposed to be like
Completely missing the whole point and crux of the book, m8
>>7529283
It's clearly satire so to some extent Dostoevsky doesn't want you to be like the Underground Man.
>>7529289
I think he is though, we are all bound by chains to some extent, just because you're aware of the chains and play the fool doesn't make you any less of a prisoner. He might be free of some things that others are imprisoned by, but not himself and it tortures him.
>>7522382
to be fair nietzsche was practically a socially jilted, ranty, unattractive, angry manlet and I say that with all respect for the man
>>7529348
Dostoevsky isn't trying to tell what you should or should not be like. Existentialism is the central theme of the work, ffs.
>>7529383
His assertion that he will not make peace with the chains is an expression of his very freedom. As he puts it, 2 + 2 = 4 is a fact, you can't change it--so what? You do not have to accept it, you always have the freedom to challenge it (in much the same way as Satan challenged God, or as a Christian challenges reason).
>>7529515
I see your point and I somewhat agree, it's similar to the point camus makes in the myth of sisyphus. But the end note dostoyevsky puts at the end saying that the writer keeps writing implies that he never really comes to terms with his situation, he will continually fight those chains for no purpose...so yes in a sense he is free and in a sense is a prisoner
>>7528597
I think >>7528813
adequately answers you're question. To add on, he thinks that his personality and condition is already determined by the "laws of nature" i.e. scientific determinism, a recent position by then-contemporary intellectuals. He wants to accept determinism as the rule of life, but also recognizes that (absolute) determinism undermines free will. Which is why he says: "Therefore you could not only not change yourself, but you simply couldn't make any attempt to."
>>7529581
Well, sort of. The chains he is fighting, determinism, has a purpose in that it prevents moral action. It follows that if you believe everything is pre-determined and free will is a myth, then one cannot act morally since you are not acting out of good but of instruction. Underground man finds accepting that there are no morals difficult, because it goes against the natural conscious of every human. The continual fight mentioned at the end of the book is more about this:
"The ambiguous "delight" of the underground man arises from the moral emotive response of his human nature to the blank nullity of the laws of nature. It signifies his refusal to abdicate his conscience and submit silently to determinism, even though his reason assures him that there is nothing he can really do to change for the better. The "masochism" of the underground man thus has a reverse significance from that usually attributed to it. Instead of being a sign of pathological abnormality, it is in reality an indication of the underground man's paradoxical spiritual health, his
preservation of his moral sense."
https://facweb.northseattle.edu/bgutierrez/Shakespeare/Winter%202011%20English%20102/English%20102%20Critical%20Article%20on%20Notes%20from%20Underground.pdf
>>7529156
>Dostoevsky
>western
>>7529719
I find your second comment interesting. By believing in determinism and at the same time fighting it is ridiculous. This inner conflict of his is what leads him to act ridiculously. How is he still not a prisoner if not a slave to this inner conflict? And if he truly believes in determinism then even this masochism was destined to be in his mind. But he has no motivation to change because he feels he will always be a prisoner, so he might as well isolate himself and feel like a prisoner
>>7529756
He's Western relative to Japan.
>>7529798
So is China.
>>7530839
Thanks Friendo
im attractive but i am the rest though
>>7522149
What is the worst of Dostoevsky?
>>7522452
>being pathetic as an expression of freedom
>mfw when that basically sums up my personality
I hate threads on Notes so fucking much
>>7520475
i love this book and I'm a 6'1 22 year old who has slept with 30 women and has an awesome social life. I could still relate on some level, however minimal. Everyone has atleast a tiny bit of the underground man in them.
>>7532613
>being this much of a slut
