>HomeArts: Why should children read? And why should children read good books?
>Bloom: To be coldly pragmatic about it, reading good books will make them more interesting both to themselves and to others. And it is by becoming more interesting--and this sounds callous, but it's true, I think--that by becoming more interesting both to oneself and to others, one develops a sense of one's separate and distinct self.
>So if children are to individuate themselves, they will not do it by watching television, or by playing video games, or by listening to rock, or by watching rock videos. They will individuate themselves by being alone with a book, by being alone with the poetry of William Blake or A. E. Housman, or being alone with Norse mythology or The Wind in the Willows.
I know most people read this and think, Oh he's just being an old snob, but what if he's right? Most kids I know who grow up playing video games or obsessed with pop music and celebrities end up being parodies of youth culture. They're either nerds who are unable to talk about anything other than video games, or they're trend followers who act overdramatic and phony like in a bad sitcom. Would reading good books really help them? I have no idea what kids who grow up reading books end up becoming because I don't know any kids who read desu, so he could be wrong about the advantages of reading for kids, generally.
So why should kids read good books?
Why is being able to talk about made up fictional characters in a book so much better than being able to talk about made up fictional characters in movies/tv/video games?
200 years ago, novels were considered trashy, vulgar entertainment.
Wow, Bloom livestreamed himself reading Infinite Jest?
>>7519591
lol
>>7519578
The next question is: Is it helpful for someone to be an individual in this society?
>>7519588
okay, i can see you're new here so i'm going to break down everything wrong about your post. i'll be patient because i just watched the end of pulp fiction and feel like being the shepherd instead of the tyranny of evil men.
1. you really have misread what both the OP and the literary critic were saying if you believe that bloom is contending that talking about fictional characters is the interesting material drawn from reading a book. really, the problem lay in your assumption that the children are meant to draw "material" from literature at all! what bloom argues is that by "being alone with a book" or "with... poetry," children can be confronted with the thoughts and feelings of people from hundreds of years ago, and realize that most of their own thoughts and feelings have been thought and felt before. by going through this process over and over again, in seclusion, you can learn how to iron out what makes your own subjective experience unique, that small slice of your personality that hasn't yet been wrought.
2. the reason you're confused here, that is, the reason you think bloom is arguing that you read for "things to talk about," is because you've been raised on a diet of "movies/tv/video games," and as such can really only think on their terms. you're a consumer, a mindless throat ripe for cramming with pulp and trained to regurgitate it—hence your assumption that the only thing gleaned from literature is things to talk about. see point 1 for an alternative way to look at the world! it may be worth your while :)
3. while your claim about the literary world 200 years ago is completely false and unfounded, let's for a moment assume it were true—what's to stop a child from 200 years ago from reading poetry instead? nothing! and rest assured they did. they were the people who grew up to be the walt whitmans and the ulysses s grants, educated people whom history remembers. without literature, they'd be babbling buffoons, just like you!
so, in sum, try reading next time, before you decide to post on a board about literature! thanks anon. have a happy new year!
>>7519578
>or by listening to rock, or by watching rock videos.
he is just a grumpy old man.
>>7519611
This. Why does Bloom assume it is productive or even necessary to be an 'interesting individual' in our modern society? What he's advocating might doom the child in question to a life on the fringe, excluded by his peers for not moving with the pack, and ultimately hinder the child.
>>7519653
Tarantino is shit
>>7519578
Reading books is helpful for the development of a child, however, Bloom's point of it making one more interesting is culturally revolting. He points towards a world in which we strive to be accepted by others instead of our selves. Also no one's respected for reading these days, unless you hangout with the literary crowd.
>>7519678
>we strive to be accepted by others instead of our selves.
He mentions it helps you be interesting to yourself.
>reading good books will make them more interesting both to themselves and to others
>>7519678
you've got it backwards. the cult of the self is precisely what bloom is preaching. clogging yourself with mtv breeds the attitude that demands herd acceptance. on the contrary reading teaches you to enjoy solitude and as you say accept yourself.
>>7519828
>Yeah, my bad I failed at reading
Happens to the best of us.
>>7519591
kek
>>7519578
>more interesting both to themselves and others.
This is so subjective and broad that it has no meaning. Becoming more interesting to yourself is masturbatory and pretty meaningless. Becoming more interesting to other people is again, way too broad. Become more interesting to whom? Harold Bloom? He's a old snob living in New York City, who, judging by his advanced age and weight, is probably going to die soon. I'm not terribly concerned with being interesting to Harold Bloom. Looking around, it seems that most people are a lot more interested in watching television, playing video games, listening to pop music, or watching pop music, than reading esoteric literature.
tl;dr Fuck off Harold Bloom
>>7520031
I think he lives in New Haven, CT. Has been a genius for sixty years, is ten times smarter than you.
tl;dr Take heed, young man.
>>7520060
That's a great ad hominem you got there, friend.
>>7520129
more like ethos
>>7520133
Elaborate please?
I don't think reading makes you interesting to anyone else except maybe fellow readers, if that.
Reading the classics is as individuating as listening to krautrock or obscure 7' disco tracks.
>>7519591
lol'd
>>7519677
This. Fuck that faggot.
>>7519578
Depends on what you mean by kid. I doubt a prepubescent is going to have the brain development to apply the themes of Blake to himself, without imitating or regurgitating, simply because the kid won't even have a formed personality yet. Or, a kid reads kid's books that are enjoyable, but he certainly isn't going to be an interesting person just because he reads Charlotte's Web, because the themes in those books are simple platitudes. A pubescent maybe, but hormones and peer pressure is so powerful that unless the kid is in a controlled environment where reading the western canon isn't seen as pretentious or alarming it's unlikely. Late/post-pubescent sure, I'd imagine a significant portion of the people who are applying to elite liberal arts colleges and Ivies under Classics or Literature majors have a individual or interesting connection with literature.
>>7519578
Blooms right.
What we need to do today is get other media on the level of good books.
>Read patrician books sice I was a teenager
>Never owned a tv
>Never played games
>Still fucked up
Well boys.
>>7520147
this. there are films and music that are obscure and intellectual, more so than the classics. i agree with him about video games though, and television with few exceptions.
>>7519578
kids should have experiences above all else. Book worms are often lifeless shutins who try to make up for their lost time by creating pseudo hierarchies. One is better off for playing a year of high school football than reading through all of the Canon. Bloom failed at life
>>7519677
meme opinion
>>7520731
>failed at life
>Implying there is such a thing as winning
>>7519578
>HomeArts: Why should children read? And why should children read good books?
>Bloom: To be coldly pragmatic about it, smoking good dope will make them more interesting both to themselves and to others. And it is by becoming more interesting--and this sounds callous, but it's true, I think--that by becoming more interesting both to oneself and to others, one develops a sense of one's separate and distinct self.
>So if children are to individuate themselves, they will not do it by watching television, or by playing video games, or by reading books. They will individuate themselves by being alone with a bong, by being alone with a bowl of lemon diesel or indica hybrid, or being alone with a nice smooth J of dank durban poison.
>>7519591
jest'd
>>7520778
I cannot think of any single thing a person can do that makes people more boring than smoke a lot of dope. It is pretty much an accepted truth.
>>7519578
I have no idea if bloom is right. The only young people i know who seriously read a lot read all pleb stuff like harry potter, tolkien, fantasy and so on. It really didn't make them interesting or learn a damn thing because you can't learn anything from those sort of books.
I do think better books can be a great shield for people and make them less vulnerable to their immediate world, which kind of makes books functionary desu
>>7519653
brava
>>7519588
*Some novels. Dime novels and pulp fiction have always existed parallel to more artful works (Moby Dick, James Joyce, e.g.).
I think the larger point he's trying to make is that reading is a much different stimulus than those other things, and thereby imparts something very different.
>>7520731
You know Bloom is quite a social person who has many friends and loves to talk with strangers?
>>7520731
>One is better off for playing a year of high school football than reading through all of the Canon.
And one is advanced leagues further in the game of life by forgoing either of these discrete options for the mystical and elusive alternate strategem of both reading and having a fucking life.
>>7520510
Really though, how fucked up are you?
had a /lit/ dream last night I was hanging out with Bloom talking about Shakespeare and SJW culture in academia. it was comfy.
>>7521150
>implying that Bloom or e/lit/ists have lives
>>7521091
My nephew is thirteen and only reads shitty young teen novels, what can i do to save the little shit from being a spastic?
>>7519578
>or A. E. Housman
I'm not sure that Housman is a good influence for kids in the same way Blake is. Housman wasn't much of a poet, and what he excelled at was more of exposing experiences (coming back from war, winning a race, seeing a war-racked countryside, etc.) that most children can't associate strongly with. However Blake, while not formally superb, is imaginatively so, and certainly works for all ages.
>>7519588
>movies/tv/video games?
well, there are tons of movies worth watching, and if Bloom weren't a tightass he'd talk about it more. TV is garbage though, as are Video Games. TV and Video Games are just a symptom of our extreme consumerist culture and our subsequent need for escapism in a bland faux-utopian world. We have no narrative so currently people need to pretend themselves a personal narrative to survive, and TV/Video Games simply make that easier than anything before.
Escapism always existed, but ours is a """golden""" age of it.
Bloom is basically asking kids not to read or watch escapist garbage, which isn't too much to ask.
>>7521180
(I'll amend the first part of my post: I think Housman is a good poet for young teenagers, who can at least pretend to associate with the experiences in his poetry. A young teen isn't going to be technically savvy with poetry so they can ignore the fact that all he wrote were boring ballads while just touching on the "content" of the poem. By the time they hit late teens Housman will be boring as shit.)
I've been reading his western canon list for the past 13 years now and I'm not more interesting to anyone or myself.
To be honest, literary fiction is nothing but masturbation. It adds nothing to you, it's just entertainment with big words and a false aura of mysticism and intelect that doesn't translate into personal needs like
- sex
- friendship
- creativity
- self improvement
Literary fiction is overrated as a mean for self development. It's a ruse, a meme...
I'll keep reading, but I won't expect anything from it.
Harold Bloom is wrong
>>7521180
>well, there are tons of movies worth watching, and if Bloom weren't a tightass he'd talk about it more. TV is garbage though, as are Video Games. TV and Video Games are just a symptom of our extreme consumerist culture and our subsequent need for escapism in a bland faux-utopian world. We have no narrative so currently people need to pretend themselves a personal narrative to survive, and TV/Video Games simply make that easier than anything before.
Good TV series are better than most movies and films. Most capital L literature is also escapism via aestheticism or intellectualism. This is why lit people tend to have the most idiotic and hyperbolic ideas about reality. DFW, Delillo, Pynchon, ect have little to say about modernity other than trying to hammer laughable theories and memes into ridiculous narratives. Also while many games have narratives, people play them for mastery and engagement with systems.
>>7521200
>>7519653
Eh, for all your snarkiness and arrogance, you've failed to present any sort of convincing defense.
1. You never gave a reason why movies/tv/video games can't also give people an alternative way of viewing the world, maybe even one that is superior to reading novels.
And I didn't even bring up things like youtube videos or podcasts or forums or any number of other ways people might absorb new and different, enriching ways of viewing the world.
2. Either you're parodying the stereotypical /lit/ douche bag here, or you're an idiot.
3. No, it's not, actually. It's true. The novel didn't become the status symbol of high intellectualism that it is today until pretty recently.
In short, you've completely failed to defend the view that literature is somehow a superior medium of imparting new thoughts and ways of viewing the world.
By the way, whenever I see this point made, I can't help but think that there is a very obvious reason why the whole "literature expands your mind and makes you a better person" argument is such bullshit. Look at the people who are voracious readers, even of high class literature. Are they really morally superior, super enlightened compared to the non-readers?
Nope. Usually, they're just as immature, quick-to-judgment, biased, flawed, and closed-minded as everyone else. For an example, you can reread your own post.
>>7521172
Recommend him something with enough plot to sink his bratty teeth into but obviously of literary value. Then another and another and so on.
That means don't recommend 17deep5u experimental fiction or The New Yorker Story, where some dull faggot from a metropolitan area ruminates on his many uninteresting issues.
Teenagers in general have short attention spans, so something with a sense of forward motion is probably good. A young-ish protagonist wouldn't hurt either.
There is a reason babby's first literary novels in high school tend to be short, fast-paced and occasionally YA-oriented.
>>7521200
Man I didn't know you've been literate since birth, that's pretty cool.
>>7521213
>beenn
>>7521206
>DFW, Delillo, Pynchon, ect have little to say about modernity other than trying to hammer laughable theories and memes into ridiculous narratives.
Okay but they aren't exactly the best literature of the 20th century except to new readers so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make
Most people who read a lot realize that DFW is an awful writer, Pynchon is for college freshmen, and DeLillo lost his basic observational talents that made him a neat novelist in the 80s.
> Most capital L literature is also escapism via aestheticism or intellectualism.
A lot of people read literature because of how it allows one to adjust their outlook on life. Perhaps not some sort of "self improvement", but reading how brilliant men of the past viewed the world might help one grow up, or at least grow empathy for others. Certainly helps them if they want to write or film something themselves, escapist or no.
> Good TV series are better than most movies and films.
"Good TV" means that the TV series attempts something just slightly out of bounds of what's acceptable to the average viewer and/or producer/company. There are tons of films that work in the non-blockbuster section and have actually achieved more than theatre of the past 200 years has managed. Compare "good TV" (which really, the "best" TV series are maybe the Sopranos, the Wire, or something like that which is still in the area of sloppy soap drama) to "Good Film" and there's no comparison. The Sopranos vs Welles' The Trial, or Fellini's 8 1/2. One is a soppy shit fest just "cultured" enough to appeal to older TV watchers by the millions, the others were risky ventures that attempted to produce relatively accessible works of visual/theatrical art.
TV is the equivalent of the dime a dozen serial novels of the victorian era, of which maybe Dickens and Trollope are remembered because they attempted to actually produce art. Trollope isn't read much today either, it's mostly dickens. On the other hand, the equivalent of Welles and Fellini, namely Hawthorne and Melville, are some of the most read novelists of the 19th century, probably as much as Dostoevsky and just under Tolstoy.
>>7519578
I, no shit and on my honour, wrote an essay with that exact point in fucking high school.
Is public intellectualism just about being the biggest pseudo with the best connections?
>>7521235
What kind of screen do you have? Jesus christ.
ITT: Butthurt old people
>>7521237
>Most people who read a lot realize that DFW is an awful writer, Pynchon is for college freshmen, and DeLillo lost his basic observational talents that made him a neat novelist in the 80s.
So who are the eminent English language authors of the latter half of the 20th century, as esteemed by those "in the know"?
>>7521262
Hello fellow Etrian.
Anyway, short answer to a long-ass question is: lit and vidya can coexist as your hobbies, just don't brag about playing video games.
>>7519578
He's right to say that we develop a genuine sense of self by means of solitary pleasures and reflection, but that doesn't have to exclude other mediums of art. I'm no 'rockist', but Bloom is certainly dismissive of things which don't meet his 'interesting' criteria. One can learn a lot about themselves from an album as a powerful investment of individual emotion and memory, just as much a book can be a site for the very same phenomena. To think this is an experienced limited to just books is retarded.
>>7519578
being able to do this with anything is the key. just stopping with books shows he is ultimately only a bookman.
>>7519588
>200 years ago, novels were considered trashy, vulgar entertainment.
not this fucking meme again
>>7521262
>old
you'd have to be literally over 60 to not have been raised in the era of television, rock music, etc.
>>7519588
One might actually put ideas in your head.
Crazy, I know.
>>7519675
And why do you assume that reading books and having your own thoughts will lead to social exclusion? That does not follow at all.
Also the many things regarding an individual's relationship to society and social expectations are some of the many themes he'll encounter if he reads proper literature.
>>7521318
Anyone who has ever read about the history of the novels knows that from its earliest time it was considered a high brow, eminently cultured thing for one to read. These were the days of Charles Dickens and the first person to evolve the transgender mutation, George Eliot, and Jane Austen. Even at the time, their writings were considered high brow and elite and were taught in schools such as Oxford College and the University of Cambridge.
>>7519588
>Why is being able to talk about made up fictional characters in a book so much better than being able to talk about made up fictional characters in movies/tv/video games?
Even if there are interesting concepts at use in many movies and TV shows (definitely not in videogames) you're not going to gain much in terms of reflection if you approach them from a literary vacuum, detached from the proper tools for analysis. So you must start with the written word before properly enjoying the other arts the same way you'd start with math before moving on to certain branches of the natural sciences.
>>7519675
>moving with the pack
>life on the fringe
One of these feels good but leads to a pointless, wasted life.
The other sucks at the time but greatly increases the odds that a life will be meaningful and productive.
Even an artist like you can guess which is which, right?
...right?
>>7519675
follow the pack
tell that to the members of jim jones club u fking gnome
>>7521268
not an apologist for DFW but he had more talent in his big toe than all of /lit/ combined
>>7521366
>i dont know shit about something so is not worth it!
>>7521366
Have you played enough video games to say that?
Have you played any recent, critically acclaimed video games like Journey, Bioshock, Fallout, etc?
>>7521394
delete this
>>7521394
kek
>>7521369
Not him but I can't actually tell what you're implying, since I have no idea what you mean by pointless or productive. Inherently our lives are pointless, read Ecclesiastes.
>>7521227
He didn't mean lit would change your outlook, but rather he meant that lit can help you identify with writers from centuries ago, which is something unique to literature that current mediums can't provide. Novels were never viewed as symbols of high intellectualism, even today, because everyone realized that the "novel" is an incredibly broad and ungeneralizable term. Perhaps you're confusing the American sentimentalism novels of the 1800s with the rest of the world?
>>7521394
>critically acclaimed
>>7521416
Yea, critically acclaimed. Let's compare two critically acclaimed works of art, one a video game and the other a book.
The Last of Us and McCarthy's The Road, both of which are pretty similar in subject matter and tone.
In my opinion, The Last Last of Us is superior as a work of art. The character development is more believable, the story more engrossing, the world richer. Altogether, The Last of Us is a haunting, beautiful work.
Now, The Road (again, highly acclaimed by the literary establishment and their /lit/ drones) is utter crap in comparison. The prose is awkward and pretentious.
>He woke up and reached for the boy and felt him lying safely and was pleased by this. Then he went to a tree and urinated and looked at the landscape before him. Ashes on the ground. Car rusted with no tires. It would be a long day. SO LITERARY.
You get no sense of the richness of the world or the complexity of the characters in The Road that you get in The Last of Us.
>>7521441
yeah because you get the sense of the richness of the world via roaming around pre-designed path and killing npcs over and over again
>delusional gamers pls
>>7521549
Oh, wow. You are so ignorant.
>>7521567
Bullshit. You show me a passage from that book that doesn't have awkward, pretentious prose.
Let me list some good prose stylists for you, off the top of my head: Burke, Newman, Dillard, Updike, Henry James, Nabokov.
Let me list some shitty prose stylists for you off the top of my head: McCarthy.
>>7521441
The Last of Us's character development is the same generic "tough characters turn out to have emotions and like each other" crap that we've already seen in a billion Hollywood movies. It's probably more complex than The Road, but is still terribly thin compared to the best works of literature out there.
>>7521578
>"tough characters turn out to have emotions and like each other"
That's not really his character arc, though. That's just what people think it is. He doesn't start out as the stereotypical tough guy with no emotions. He even cries in the very first scene.
>>7521577
Oh wow you schooled me.
How old are you, 15?
>>7521587
I'm 31.
>>7521441
>Now, The Road (again, highly acclaimed by the literary establishment and their /lit/ drones) is utter crap in comparison. The prose is awkward and pretentious.
The irony.
>>7519591
>>7521200
This, the normies had it right all along
>>7521622
if raeding books made him so smart why did he die of herpes
>>7521592
Wasted years. Enjoy your games.
>>7521306
This. One should be have pretentious pseud opinions on all media: lit, film, television, vidya, music, anime, &c. If you aren't going to spend time doing weightless normie shit, may as well experience everything else human creativity has had to offer, art or otherwise
>>7521172
Sell him some pot
>>7521394
>Journey, Bioshock, Fallout
>all Western kusoge
Nice bait
>>7521660
Houdini died of aids, retard.
>>7521687
I do enjoy my video games. I also enjoy tv, movies, comics, literature, non-fiction reading, et al.
Enjoy reading your only high brow, enriching literature of the utmost cultural value.
>>7521123
>loves to talk to strangers.
>>7521441
>McCarthy
>Awkward and pretentious
>not even able to parse basic minimalist prose
>not being able to appreciate minimalism
>comparing video games (the modern day equivalent to a choose-your-own-adventure picture book but with less emphasis on story) to literature (the most intimate and expressive artistic medium ever conceived)
You're either a teenager or a naturalor 4/10 bait
>>7521767
Yea, McCarthy's prose in The Road is awkward and pretentious. Dropping verbs from your sentences doesn't make you a prose stylist. Like I said before, drop a quote from the book you think is well written.
Your understanding of video games is juvenile. You've clearly never played any worth playing.
I don't deny that literature is an intimate and expressive artistic medium. I just don't think it's the QUEEN OF THE ARTS like so many seem to think it is.
I think lots of people can have culturally enriched, intellectual fulfilling lives of empathy for others, without reading literature.
But now I'm bored with this thread, and will no longer defend what I've said. So I'll say that you were all right, and I was wrong, and we can leave it at that.
Novels > video games, movies, tv, etc, all combined
>>7519677
he really isn't. jackie brown is a truly great movie by any reasonable standard. however i still respect your objectively wrong opinion
>>7521786
>Your understanding of video games is juvenile. You've clearly never played any worth playing.
To be fair, if you've played any video game you've not played any worth playing.
>I just don't think it's the QUEEN OF THE ARTS like so many seem to think it is.
Too bad video games aren't even an artform anyway. Nor is television.
>>7521786
Video Games are made for the purpose of entertainment. They are intentionally designed for consumption within the confines of a capitalist society (which can't be helped, it's simply the socio-political confines within which they were made) so it makes sense that their breadth and scope can never go beyond the faux depth brought about by good art design or subtle philosophical themes. Any semblance of integrity or intellectual merit is built on a foundation meant for consumption first and foremost.
The very nature of the medium confines it to literary merit akin to what a five star chef might think of fast food. Sure, there might be some fast food that's more palatable than others, but at the end of the day it's nothing more but a neon-opiate designed for distraction and consumption.
Even so called "artsy" games (The Talos Principle, Gone Home, Braid, SotC, Ori etc.) are juvenile compared to McCarthy's most straight forward novels. I'll take a third re-read of All The Pretty Horses over the most acclaimed video game of all time any day of the week.
Bragging about being a video game connoisseur is like saying you have a highly refined taste in comic books or genre fiction. You're like a dog with a favourite chew toy confused as to why its owner prefers fine wine. By all means, enjoy yourself, just don't expect anyone to be impressed.
>>7521172
Brave New World might be a good place to start, lots of sexual references to keep his mind at attention if you know what I'm sayin
>>7521836
>Video Games are made for the purpose of entertainment. They are intentionally designed for consumption within the confines of a capitalist society
I find it so strange when people say this, when you can say this about any artform.
>>7519578
>Oh he's just being an old snob,
Snobs are always correct, I don't know why people call others snobs as a pejorative; fuck plebs.
>>7521868
>capitalism has been the dominant ideology in all cultures forever
I primarily read non-fiction, but he's right that literature usually provides a much richer variety of experience
There are interesting movies and shows and whatever, but they're much more constrained to their format. There's only so much you can portray in a 2-hour movie or a series of episodic plots.
>>7521872
Ah i see, so when is the hard cut-off set?
>>7521786
Oh my. Why on earth would I play something as vulgar and plebian as a video game when I could spend time with the work of Joyce, Nabokov, Shakespeare, Milton?
Let the underclasses pathetically amass their video "tokens" and collect their Mario "gems," and leave me to my sonnets, to my Homer, my Hamlet, Ulysses (both the Tennyson poem AND the novel, thank you very much, sir), and the latest issue of The New Yorker.
>>7521836
this is moronic and pretentious drivel. The problem is that you are looking at games as art and assuming that art holds the highest intellectual and cultural merit of all human products. Games are closer to science/math/sports than to art. No other medium can hold a candle to games when it comes to modeling systems. If computers can ever deal with natural language then it will be time to be looking at games from an artistic perspective.
>>7521895
There is no exact moment where capitalism became dominant (history is a constant flux, not a set of points), but I would argue that the biggest shift was around the industrial revolution
That being said it's undoubtedly true that video games were born and bred at the height of capitalism as ideology. The entire medium was pioneered via the arcade.
Literature would be just as juvenile and lacking in artistic merit if they got people to pay a quarter a page from the outset.
>>7519678
>He points towards a world in which we strive to be accepted by others instead of our selves
That's a good thing, gramps.
>unless you hangout with the literary crowd.
Which is what you should be doing.
>>7520031
>Becoming more interesting to yourself is masturbatory
That's a good thing.
>snob
Oh, you're one of those idiots who use "snob" as a pejorative.
Post discarded
>>7521172
Start with the Greeks, plenty of stuff in them that's interesting to boys, war, sex, intrigue, what's not to love?
Then move him on to the rest of the canon.
>>7521912
>Literature would be just as juvenile and lacking in artistic merit if they got people to pay a quarter a page from the outset.
Wasn't that almost literally how literature was in ancient times, though?
What people always fucking miss in conversations like this is that different mediums have different strengths and weaknesses. It's certainly true that literature is a fantastic way of sharpening the intellect and stimulating the imagination, 99% of people dont read anywhere near as much as they should (including myself and of course /lit/). One could probably argue reasonably that if one is to engage with just one of these mediums for the rest of their lives it should probably be literature. However you are free to engage with as many mediums as you choose and enjoy them for their own virtues.
To ram the point in: Different mediums come with different strengths. Duh, right!? Should be obvious, but there are some too deep in books and their own asses who cannot engage with this basic and obvious point, and worse, think themselves intellectual superiors for it! ( >>7521836 hang your head). >>7521237 Fails to recognize that the way The Wire delivers it's themes could not have been done in a movie, it utilities and is dependent upon its episodic ongoing structure.
Videogames, so readily dismissed as a valuable medium, are an excellent example of this. Nobody has engaged with the point >>7521206 makes when he says that "people play them for mastery and engagement with systems." This is a totally different activity to reading a book or watching a film, and it is foolish to compare the two in a linear manner. The videogame industry takes large responsibility for this with it's often self-defeating obsession with "delivering a cinematic experience" (ugh).
tl:dr read lots of books, but also do other things and don't be a cunt.
>>7521939
>Nobody has engaged with the point 7521206 makes
Well I see people now have which is appreciated.
>i want children to read books
>i purport to do this by insulting the things they like, tell them they're uninteresting for not liking what i like, and put books in an unreachable pedestal, rather than making them understand literature is a medium just like any other and, while having weaknesses, has strengths others don't
WHEN WILL THESE PEOPLE LEARN
>>7521935
But what about the uhh homoeroticism?
>>7521911
Science and Math have undeniably utilitarian applications conducive to acquiring truth and can fundamentally change the way you view the world. I'd even argue that upper level science and mathematics, when fully grasped and understood, can be some of the most beautiful stuff in the world.
Sports are cathartic, promote team work, fitness and health and have undeniable utilitarian applications in collective problem solving, strategy and even a dialectic born from living, breathing competition.
Video games are masturbatory distractions that afford none of the physical benefits of sports and a fraction of the intellectual merits. Comparing them to science and mathematics is an insult to anyone seriously involved in science and mathematics.
>>7521936
Western literature finds its roots in the oratory epics of Homer and the Bible.
>>7521939
Video Games are just diluted, consumerist bastardizations of interactive storytelling, sports and strategy games like Chess and Go. They're weaponized culture with the sole intent of driving capitalism forward and dulling the masses into thinking that wasting twelve hours on the newest Telltale Games release is a mind blowing innovation and great use of their time. Barely a step above opiate addiction only at least opiate addiction has inspired some good literature.
>>7521950
>not raising your son to be proudly homosocial
>>7521961
not even close and I say that as someone seriously involved with Physics. The point I was making is that they cultural product of that side of culture vs literature which is a cultural product of the humanities. Are you saying that a game like Simcity or Europa Universalis can not change someones view of the world. What about a game like Miegakure which gives players a way of understanding and visualizing a 4-D world. What deep simulators which force the player the engage with laws of physics. Hell almost all games model economics on a some level. Even FPSs which are often derided as mindless have been shown to be one of the best neurological tools for sharpening ones mind when it comes to generalize problem solving and improving spatial awareness. Just because games do not operate on a formal level does not make them merit less, the heuristic level which most games operate on is what makes them special.
>>7521961
Your argument is confused. Do you think that videogames aren't cathartic and do not involve problem solving? Or teamwork? Clearly not.
You think that things that are bastardisations of all of these things at once
>storytelling, sports and strategy games like Chess and Go
are devoid of structure with their own value?
You think chess and go are the only games worth playing? Clearly not. You think only games involving physical activity are the only games with playing? Clearly not.
>They're weaponized culture with the sole intent of driving capitalism forward and dulling the masses
But not sports, right.
>>7521990
We're basically friends.
>>7521200
>To be honest, literary fiction is nothing but masturbation
That's the point, narcissism is a virtue.
Nothing is stopping you from having a life and reading.
>>7521206
>Most capital L literature is also escapism via aestheticism or intellectualism
That's a good thing, the only acceptable forms of escapism.
>>7521262
Manchild
>>7521277
Video games are a waste of intellect.
>>7521394
>Have you played enough video games to say that?
I'm not him, but I have played enough video games to say what I say.
>>7521441
See >>7521549 and >>7521578
>>7521553
I have the game, he's right.
>>7521585
The entire thing, from the story and its characters, to even the gameplay, was extremely derivative.
>>7521724
Video games, anime, and most television shows (bar a few mini-series), are a waste of intellect.
>>7521741
>tv
>comics
What a waste.
>>7521911
>assuming that art holds the highest intellectual and cultural merit of all human products.
That is a correct assumption.
>If computers can ever deal with natural language then it will be time to be looking at games from an artistic perspective.
Putting a book in a game doesn't make it art.
>>7521939
>people play them for mastery and engagement with systems
Because that's akin to saying that puzzles and riddles are art.
>>7521949
The plebs should accept that they are inferior and listen to him, the superior, as many of us have done before.
Self-shame is the first step.
>>7521961
Science and math deal with life, they are below art.
t. STEM major
>>7521990
That all deals with life, below art.
>>7521992
>Do you think that videogames aren't cathartic
They aren't.
>teamwork
>problem solving
All below art.
>>7522010
reality > art
>>7522021
Wrong
>>7522022
have you ever been laid?
>>7522029
Of course, stay mad, pleb.
>>7522010
Maximum shitpost but
>Because that's akin to saying that puzzles and riddles are art.
I didn't said that, I said something closer to: games are more like puzzles and riddles than books or films.
Art is great. You don't want puzzles too? Why not?because you love penises
>>7522021
art = reality
>>7522010
Video games are better than literature and you don't even have good reasons for saying otherwise.
>>7522035
plebian virgin detected
>>7522052
>plebian
>>7522051
Modern /lit/, everyone.
>>7522063
it is an accepted spelling
>>7522060
>but I'll humor the middle of your post. Everything that isn't art is beneath it.
>cannot read yet calls others plebs
>loves penises
>>7522072
it's the plebeian spelling.
>>7522083
Whom are you quoting?
It is you that cannot read, I covered why one should not play games, illiterate clod.
>>7522051
absolutely disgusting
>>7522097
>It is you that cannot read, I covered why one should not play games, illiterate clod.
I'm quoting you you fucking tosspot. I made a point (one independent on the hierarchical placement of art, incidentally), you bypassed point and called me pleb, you love penises.
>>7522120
>At this point you're just trying to get the last reply.
It's not that deep, let me lay it out for you.
You: It's not art.
Me: If it's not art it's not worth it?
You: It's not art.
Me: You love penises.
>>7522130
>If it's not art it's not worth it?
To which I replied that anything that isn't art is below it, learn to read.
>>7519578
Guy has a fetish for consuming particular styles of a single form of communication.
>>7522135
Literature isn't written to communicate, it elicits.
>>7522134
You've literally made the same post and the same mistake. It's you who cannot read, it's extremely simple.
The assertion that something is below art is not equatable to the assertion that that which is below art is not worth engaging with.
For example, things that you have asserted as not being art and thus below it:
Life, physics.
Things that you have established that you engage with:
Life, physics.
>>7522108
lmao
Skyrim has better lore and a more immersive world than Homer's Odyssey. It's more fun, more in depth, and altogether a better work of art.
So, when I read Keat's talking in his On First Looking Into Chapman's Homer poem about long having traveled in those antique worlds, I'm like . . . seriously? I spent over 200 hours in Skyrim, exploring various cities, talking to lots of people (thousands of hours of dialogue), doing guild quests, solving mysteries, fulfilling quests, slaying monsters, crafting items, etc . . . I've traveled long in those antique worlds, Keats. You read some boring ass poetry. In translation, even, for fuck's sake.
>>7522150
>You've literally made the same post
Because you apparently didn't see it.
>The assertion that something is below art is not equatable to the assertion that that which is below art is not worth engaging with.
Did you not fucking read >>7522010 ?
I engage with physics only as a fancy, but most of my intellect is focused on art.
>>7522160
Petty escapism.
>>7522167
I must be being baited.
>>7522160
You, sir, are an imbecile. You are a disgrace not only to your individual nation, but to Western Civilization generally. That you would compare, at the same time, both Homer and one of the greatest Romantic poets to a modern Nintendo game shows the staggering, simply staggering, level of ignorance and cultural depravity to which you have sunk in your no doubt very, very small world. I pity you for wasting your life on such trifles. Good day. We will not speak again.
>>7522178
Either you are genuinely so stupid as to be so pompous and arrogant in your opinions yet fail to understand how you have repeatedly failed to comprehend a very simple argument (ironically whilst reinforcing it's significance whilst doing so "I ENGAGE WITH ~ART")
or I am so stupid as to get repeatedly baited.either way you love the penis
>>7522180
You've definitely been baited.
>>7522212
The "argument" which you are making (as posted >>7522112
>one independent on the hierarchical placement of art
)
To which I replied that everything that isn't art, is below it, nothing is outside of this hierarchy.
>pompous
Of course
Don't bother replying if you're going to continue being illiterate.
>>7522051
Anon, please for the love of all things pleasant, read the damn thread
>implying Dark Souls isn't more literary than half of the western canon
Philosophy should be moved to /v/ t b h, they're much better equipped to tackle complex metaphysical problems (I mean seriously, David Hume was made irrelevant the second my avatar (a physical, empirically measurable, self) was made and causality was hard coded in). Planescape Torment is more literary than that pseud pandering Finnegan's Wake (it's literally just gibberish, stop kidding yourself)
Pic related is just one of the few pseuds that have been outed by the sophisticated narrative vehicle of vidya.
>>7522180
Not to be pedantic but Skyrim is not nintendo property.
>>7522248
0/10
Stop trying so hard
>>7522180
Skyrim is a million times better than some old greek fag telling us about how many ships he has
Does the Iliad even have crafting?
>>7522261
I'd try to explain my full reasoning to you in all its glory but that would require at least three playthroughs of the Talos Principle and a general understanding of fundamental vidya concepts. Go back to your dusty books grandpa.
Start with the Geeks, not the Greeks.
>>7522255
I stand corrected, but whether it is Nintendo or Sega Generation or the Atari Master System, that is all rather incidental to the point I was making.
>>7522227
>To which I replied that everything that isn't art, is below it, nothing is outside of this hierarchy.
You legitimately don't understand do you.
What you have quoted is not the argument. It is the assertion that the argument does not depend on any proposed hierarchical placement of art, be it at the top of the pile or elsewhere.
You are legit stupid, you cannot make any such simple distinctions, I have aided you in derailing a thread with this pointless back and forth, you love penises.
>>7522285
>It is the assertion
Which I pointed out that it is incorrect, thus your argument is also countered, childish dolt.
>>7522298
Seriously are you having fun?
>literature
>relevant in a world where I can watch youtube summaries of great novels between games of League
I've pretty much read the entire Western Canon climbing my way to Platinum. How's that second month into Anna Karenina treating you? Is all that knowledge of 19th century Russian Agriculture helping you 1v1 me mid?
>>7522308
I'll take this as your concession.
4/10 you had me going for a while.
>>7522312
You are messing with me the whole time, fuck you anon.
>>7522320
Fuck off, retard, you're the only one baiting here, nice bait, though.
Just for the record, I've written several posts pro video games and anti video games just for the hell of it. Good luck figuring out which. I don't even remember at this point.
>>7522354
Well yeah, half the fun of these threads is composing multiple-paragraph long flawed arguments ripe with spooks and ideology and watching the plebs shit themselves. (then some autist makes it way too obvious and ruins the fun for everyone, see >>7522248)
Damn it feels good to be a professional shit poster
>>7522354
Fuck off, cretinous dolt.
>>7522376
Give it a day or two, and if I reread your post I might not remember whether I wrote it or not also.
>>7522374
Narcissism isn't a spook nor ideology, pseud.
It's now obvious I won.
>>7522391
Here's your (you)
>>7522393
But anon, this is an internet argument that got your butt flustered and earned you no capital
If you won then is winning really desirable?Even if it isn't you got btfo by the second post
>>7522309
>tfw wanted to be a League player but couldn't force myself to be a hideous slob
It's tough being a squeaky clean patrician. :'(
You people are all pure shite. You fucking start these idiotic threads to shitepost and do nothing but troll unsuspecting people. I hope you bogans fuck off /lit/ and go fuck yourselves, you gigantic hunch if faggots.
>>7522400
HA HA HA. I was trolling you fucking retard. HA HA HA. Found the buttmad retard. Want to go back to Reddit you faggot. HA HA HA. Lurk moar. :DDDDDD
The last word.
> it is mine.
>>7519578
He's right but I don't really trust his tastes and opinions in terms of what he considers to be the "canon". A lot of it is decent stuff because he cast a very wide net, but some authors he holds in high esteem are complete garbage.
He is right.
Garbage in garbage out.
Normies of all social classes are basically rocks. They are not even people.
>>7519653
Good read, thanks
>>7519653
But obviously no one who has read and absorbed the wisdom of great literature could write something so profoundly stupid as your post.
>>7521441
Corncob McCarthy is one of this shittiest "critically acclaimed" writers of all time though. If you compare garbage to shit of course the garbage is going to look better.
>>7523085
remember when /lit/ loved mccarthy?
>>7521577
>prose stylists
I'm guessing you don't read much if this is what you care about in your novels?
I have never met anyone who actually cared about books who focused on "prose style". Go read poetry if you want lingual fun.
>>7523085
Reminder that Nabokov hated Faulkner because he was jealous.
The only good thing about reading fiction is your bookshelf.
Nothing else.
>>7523106
>instrumental ability
I'm guessing you don't listen to much music if this is what you care about in your music?
I have never met anyone who actually cared about music who focused on the musician's "instrumental ability." Go watch videos of people playing guitar solos on youtube if you want technical fun.
>>7521268
I would surprisingly say it's some of who might be considered "second rate" by a lot of the people here, in my opinion, who will be remembered best. Nabokov is probably the only "big" name past the fifties who will be remembered and mostly as curiosity. I think that the most accomplished authors of the post WWII era are probably Mishima for his incredible ability to understand and dissect gay people, straight people, young people, old people, etc. using the basic narrative innovations of Proust or early Joyce without veering too hard from reality. He'll be read for centuries to come. In terms of "major" poets, Ashbery will mostly be forgotten, most if not all of the confessionals will be considered historical artifacts, perhaps Bishop (even though I dislike her poetry rather strongly) will survive and influence the art for a while to come as a logical extension of Whitman; WS Merwin will be remembered for an incredible but small set of poems from his first four books; I think unfortunately, Philip Larkin will be remembered fondly; Geoffrey Hill will make it into 22nd century poetry anthologies, though probably consigned to wither away with poets of similar allusiveness like Thomas Browne at the back of specialized era anthologies (he's too difficult for the vast majority of poetry readers, and there's little value in reading more than a couple of his poems); so on so on etc etc all that
More novelists: DFW will be entirely forgotten. Pynchon will be an artifact, as soon as pop culture morphs away from the references in his books, he's toast. DeLillo will likely be forgotten by the end of the 21st, since 90 percent of what he writes about isn't timeless (((at least I really hope so))).
Under The Volcano will be a timeless novel.
Beckett will be read for centuries, but as a "secondary" shaker of the 20th. Brecht will certainly be remembered and thought over.
I can't really guarantee much more than that.
>>7523129
But "instrumental ability" in "prose" would literally be Poetry
but use metaphor fallacy all you like
>>7522248
The only thing video games teach is that nothing is random in the world and there is some force,separated from its creation, creating and moving the characters along the map.
>>7519677
All movies are shit.
>>7521200
>- sex
>- friendship
>- creativity
>- self improvement
all a bunch of spooks.
>>7521622
water those
>>7523231
>Caring about spooks
>>7519653
>ulysses s grants
shit president desu
>>7523162
>He thinks pop culture is everything there is to Pynchon.
>He thinks pop culture is the only thing Pynchon references.
>He thinks Pynchon rellies on the popularity of his references.
>He thinks the pop culture he references will somehow banish.
Talking out of your ass is a bad habit, Anon.
>>7519578
>rock
ffs grandpa
I'm 18 now. I grew up without much tv or video games, I mostly say alone reading my books. Now I'm a total loser with no friends or social skills. Sure, I'm above average intelligence and have a pretty big vocabulary, but that doesn't help much when I'm so awkward and can barely talk to people outside the Internet.
>>7519578
>I have no idea what kids who grow up reading books end up becoming
>>7521577
Go back to /v/ you dumb gamer faggot.
>>7521592
> 31
> still plays video games
Absolutely pathetic and deep down you know it.
>>7521237
>implying Sopranos isn't a postmodern hybrid that utilizes logical discontinuity to challenge the narrative coherence of serialized Victorian novels
I shiggy diggy
>>7521359
>Oxford College
what is this
>>7523914
Since you decided to be a 4chan anyway, I can't imagine that if you grew up with tv or vidya instead, you'd be a beautiful social butterfly.
>>7522097
btw its "who are you quoting?"
"who" is the subject, "whom is the object"
dont just add "m" on the end of "who" just to seem smarter, especially if you're calling other people "illiterate clod[s]"
>>7524776
people arent born naturally socially retarded except unironic autistics. you can be severely disformed and still be normal. who knows what would have happened
>>7524799
Pick up a grammar book, "whom" is used correctly here.
>>7524799
In the sentence "Whom are you quoting" the word "you" is the subject, and "whom" is the object.
>>7524799
Even logically, it is an object in this sentence.
>>7524799
Retard
>>7524799
lol
>>7524799
what a moron haha
>>7521836
>Even so called "artsy" games (The Talos Principle, Gone Home, Braid, SotC, Ori etc.)
Looking at the wrong games then
Has anyone else noticed how much Harold Bloom resembles Ivan Krylov?
>>7519653
Based anon.
>>7521233
Kek'd
>>7527537
Le resemblance est uncanny
>>7523950
JUST
>>7528911
DO IT
>>7521200
false
youre not a very good thinker
art, any kind, is a means for thinking
thinking thoughts about sex friendship creativity and self improvement
maybe youll get there one day
>>7519578
Why do you have to ignore certain art mediums and just focus on one to distinguish yourself from others, to create an identity? I love literature and I've been reading ever since I was a child, but I've also enjoyed great films, TV series, comic books, and yes, even videogames. Why can't they coexist as different art forms inside your mind and provide you with different perspectives and types of entertainment? There's no other movie or TV series that will provide you with everything Ulysses does, but there's not a a single book that will acomplish what Watchmen did, and no single film that can project what Sons of Liberty did. Bloom's argument really does sound just like an old guy being ignorant.
>>7521728
THE CURE
>>7521172
this book will make him man the fuck up
>>7520136
On what? What the term 'ethos' means in this context? Should be pretty obvious kouhai
>>7521435
As a film, it would work well, but as a videogame, it's fairly boring.
>>7522010
>Video games are a waste of intellect.
But what about games like Myst and The Talos Principle that are about solving puzzles?
>>7521206
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W37SjBMvZbI
Graham Lineham says most things wrong with film and video games are due to nobody reading books anymore.
(relevant stuff is near the start, skip to :30 if you don't like Monkey Island, or 1:18 if you hate ancient memes)
>I have a theory about what's happening. I think a lot of writers, not only in games but also in film, have stopped reading books. They're just watching films. Vice City to me is a really good example of a game written by someone who's only experience of what they're writing about is through films. The only thing that will give a game world or a story a bit of depth and texture...is research, and by research I don't mean watching Scarface twenty times in a row
>>7522051
greetings 9gag
>>7521813
>Too bad video games aren't even an artform anyway. Nor is television.
They may be shit artforms, but they're still artforms. Being 'art' doesn't really mean much at all, dingus.
>>7530250
Maybe you should solve a slightly harder puzzle, like an open question in a STEM field, or spend more time reading literature.
>>7521904
9/10 bait
>>7521961
>upper level science and mathematics, when fully grasped and understood, can be some of the most beautiful stuff in the world.
yes
>>7522069
shut the fuck up
>>7524799
holy fuck
>>7522097
Did you cover why one shouldn't frequent 4chan? I mean I think some games are a better use of time than posting on 4chan, which you're doing, so... what's up with that?
>this thread
>>7530846
>Video games by definition aren't art, they're made for a purpose.
Being 'made for a purpose' or no isn't usually part of the definition of 'art,' sir.
>>7530871
It is, read Wilde.
Why is reading and other hobbies mutually exclusive?
I dabble in many things in my spare time. I read, I write, I play vidya, I play the alto sax, I golf, I go and see pleb flicks like Star Wars and I go backpacking. Never has anyone said that my enjoyment of vidya takes away from literature and reading for pleasure.
You also have to bring up the point of vicariously living. Is someone who read Call of the Wild going to contribute more to a conversation about the wilds of Alaska and dog sledding, than someone who might not have read any London, but has mushed their whole lives?
Plus there is children's literature itself. How is two kids talking about Harry Potter the book different from discussing Harry Potter the movie?
Bloom is out of touch and like many of his generation are living in a contradiction.
Literature is not dead, it morphed into youtube, or the video game industry or livestreaming or blogging or microblogging or selfies etc list goes on.
Literature was always a product of the educated classes indoctrinating the working classes. It pandered to the lowest common denominator.
It turns out that when you feed and clothe and employ the poor, and raise their standard of living to that of the elite of 100 years ago, all they care about is empty self-expression and SURPRISE promoting morally superior ideologies (neo-feminism, SJW, all that shit).
Hey isn't that eerily similar to what the great intellectuals and thinkers of the western literary pantheon did for hundreds of years? Self-absorption and moral superiority.
You want a hot tip? Western civilization has been in obvious decline for 60 years now, and the future lies with China and eastern philosophies.
The equivalent of the Great Depression in scholastic, education, moral standards, political ideology is coming. And when it hits you full force in the face, you will realise that no matter how much your media insulates you from the rest of the world, you're stupid ignorant Americans with nothing to say.
Bloom haters are cucks
