I just finished this book and thought it was going to be somewhat of a let down just because of how often I see an image of the cover posted on here. I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not. I'm not joking. I legitimately thought /lit/ might be talking about it ironically because I hadn't ever really heard it mentioned by any of my fellow literature majors at college and it's never been on a syllabus or discussed by a professor. I was wrong.
I need to talk about this with people because it made me feel more emotion than any other book. I wish there were some sort of lecture series on this. Until then, if someone would just like to discuss this with me on here, it would be greatly appreciated. I feel as though it tackles so much in such a condensed space and I'm for sure not emotionally mature enough to dig into it on my own and uncover all there is to be found.
So...Stoner discussion thread? Stoner discussion thread.
blaze it
dab it 710
D
U
>>7495939
DUDE WEED LMAO
It's great because it shows that regular people can have interesting stories.
normie 'depression': the book
>>7495979
Stoner had more of a reason to be depressed than you nigger
>>7495984
>he's had a relationship ever
book discarded
apparently, a movie based on it is being made.
hope more people will read it because of that
I thought it did a really excellent job of exploring the idea of "control" over one's life. In the first half of the book stoner surrenders control of his life and allows others to determine its trajectory for him, someone else decides he should go to college and someone else decides he should be a teacher. It is even embedded in the language, the first half of the book is filled with descriptions like "stoner felt himself saying" that imply he has very little control over his actions and they are more so dictated by those around him, also John Williams very obviously overuses the word perfunctory. Another example, when he meets Edith he surrenders control of himself to her beauty pushing him into a doomed marriage, the only clear decision he makes is to switch from agriculture to english but even that is framed as if he were so impacted by literature that his decision was made for him. He then spends the rest of his life trying to regain control within the prison created by his inaction.
Then from this arises another concept this book explores, recurrence. Stoner watches helplessly as Sloane recedes into despair. Stoner doesn't understand Sloane's descent until he reenacts it, by then he is aware of what is happening but it is to late to change it. The 2 world wars form a perfect backdrop for the exploration of this concept.
I think these two elements are main contributors to the emotional impact of this book. There's an ever-present feeling of inevitability which is validated in the end by stoner's line "what did you expect"
Also probably the most effective line in the whole book:
"Where's dave?"
It's very late here so I hope all this made sense
>>7496047
Excellent break down. I wonder if this was the reason the hump back had for hating him. The lack of control.
>>7496047
Definitely made sense. You raised a lot of good points. The theme of control was done so well that when Stoner finally pushed back against Lomax I was audibly cheering for him because I as the reader felt that weight being lifted.
I think my favorite moment in the book was when Stoner opened up Driscoll's novel and found out it was dedicated to him. This was really the only time someone other than Stoner himself broke that "what did you expect" sort of cycle. It was such a small gesture but him immediately reading straight through her book, after always stopping or being interrupted while trying to study, was a triumph that I think only we as readers can understand. I'm not sure Stoner even knew how impactful that was to him.
I do like the similarities between Sloane and Stoner. Even their physical description become alike as he ages. Their cyclical nature is indicative of the human condition in a really profound way. It not only shows how insignificant we really are, but also how intricate and important that insignificance is. And they both spend their lives trying to uncover those truths as literature when they themselves we're experiencing it all first hand. Makes me wonder what a book about my life would read like. Makes me want to ensure that book turns out as effective as the story of Stoner.
>>7496129
Stoner reading Katherine's book really was beautiful, especially when considered in light of the inevitable human decay you brought up. When he reads her book he recognizes a piece of her identity held within the text, and I think that at the end when he reaches for his own book he is realizing that this also applies to him. That a piece of himself will exist beyond his death. He remarks that it will be neither very useful or interesting to anyone, but the reader knows that because of this it is the perfect case to preserve who stoner was.
But this also brings up the other clear point of recurrence and piece of stoner that will live on, Grace. Watching Edith destroy the potential that grace had to escape the cycle was absolutely heartbreaking. Her character is to much for me to dissemble right now.
This book really floored me, have any of you read Augustus or Butcher's crossing? how do they stack up?
>>7496161
Wow. I hadn't even made the connection to him reaching for his own book as he died. Excellent point dude.
And yeah. I think Grace is one of the most compelling character's in the book but I don't know where to begin in terms of unraveling her. There's so much at play. I found it amazing that during his whole affair with Katherine, I couldn't stop wondering about his daughter. She pretty much exists completely in the sub text until she gains her agency, and thats what ruined her. Fuck. This book is so good.
>>7495939
i'm on the exact same boat as you OP. but i'm not sure how to develop a discussion on this book, it leaves you very "full"
I was speaking to mytherapistabout the book and she thought that it was a tragically sad novel, and that's an easy read but a wrong one. It seems to me an exploration of that fear that everyone has, dying having achieved literally nothing, remembered by no one, but in his death Stoner, at least I thought, to come to the realisation that this is fine, that it didn't matter. Sure, his life was shit and pointless but in the end we should rejoice in him overcoming the, pardon my meme I can't think of a better word, spook of what is demanded of him by society, his wife and daughter. I feel really hesitant to talk about spooks and libertarianism, though, because Williams always talked about how it is just about enjoying the novel, not having any ideology or political message, that it should just leave you 'full', like >>7496531 said, but death of the author and whatnot I guess. This all feels very garbled, whatever.
I don't really agree with any prescription of Stoner as depression-core. He lives a pathetic life, but so do a lot of people and they manage their way through like he does.
More central to the novel is unrequited love in myriad forms: love for learning and reading, love for a colleague (despite his cynicism), love for a wife (despite her autism), love for a daughter (despite her rebellion), love for a boss (despite his misdirected hatred).
The fact of the matter is that Stoner accomplished a lot more than you fucks. He's still pathetic: an unread book, a broken family, and no real teaching legacy. It just means that you're more pathetic :^)
>>7496161
>>7496225
His daughter also comes down to the cyclic pattern of life. As Stoner inherits from Sloane, so she inherits from her parents. Her (initial) obedience and hatred for her parents she gets from Edith through her conditioning the same way Edith was. Her apathy and lack of agency towards her situation is a "gift" from her father, as she drifts into her shotgun wedding.
This is probably the most civilized discussion I have ever seen on /lit/, good job team
Stoner was indeed being "controlled" as the other anon put it and forces worked against him. Despite all of that he carried on knowing the burden he placed on himself by falling into that pit so to speak. He didn't live a lavish life full of fame and glory (remember the scene when he was retiring? He didn't even care and even with those he interacted with after the event he knows they will continue on with their lives as well).
He was never out to gain social capital or anything like that he just wanted to live doing what he wanted to do. If he helped anyone/changed them a long the way I'm sure he was fine with it, but it didn't "make" him.
>>7495993
Who would actually direct it though?
Can someone please explain to me why Edith married Stoner?
>>7497305
you havent been here that long imo
>>7497426
Is it weird that I could see Wes Anderson doing it?
"Royal Tenenbaum bought the house on Archer Avenue in the winter of his 35th year. Over the next decade he and his wife had three children
and then they separated".
Idk, I could see him making it extremely depressing. Blue color palate, awkward interactions, and his casting of Lomax would be insane I'm sure.
>>7497525
Stoner is too sober for Anderson. He'd ruin it by having a quirky narrator, a pop song soundtrack, and you just know he's gonna have jason schwartzman as stoner and bill murray as sloane and please no.
>>7497451
I think the vagueness of their reasoning is intentional. Both of them marry because it is just another part of them being controlled by outside forces, having to go through the motions of life.
I suspect Edith felt it was her obligation because shew as raised to be an accessory to someone else's life, never a success on her own. I also suspect it was due to her parents. In a lot of ways, Grace and Edith are similar. However, where Stoner tried to be somewhat attentive and supporting, Edith's father seemed to be distant yet controlling and he clearly put his work before his family. This is why she feels nothing at his funeral.
Also, take a look at how Edith approached having a child. It was like it just dawned on her one day that she should have one...almost like it was a chore she never completed or an item at the grocery store she forgot to purchase. It was extremely strange, and her relapsing back into her way of non-intimacy immediately afterward was even stranger. There's so much more to her character in what's unsaid than how she acts outwardly.
>>7497544
Yeah, that's why I asked if it was weird I saw it being that way.
I don't know though, I think Anderson has his extremely sober moments. I'm picturing the majority of the film being shot like Richie's suicide scene.
>>7495993
oh it actually is
after reading the book I actually thought about how a movie adaptation would work out; In my opinion one of the strongest points in the novel are the prose and the narrator and I don't think such things can translate to well to films unless you put a voice narrating it (but that is quite lousy in my opinion)
>>7497606
found it through the wikipedia page
http://variety.com/2015/film/global/blumhouse-cohen-media-group-film4-team-on-adaptation-of-cult-novel-stoner-1201497532/
>Blumhouse Prods. is teaming up with the Cohen Media Group on “Stoner,” which is being co-developed by Film4, the movie arm of U.K. broadcaster Channel 4.
The movie is an adaptation of the novel by John Williams. The story follows the hardscrabble life, both interior and exterior, of a farmer turned academic making his way through the first half of the 20th century.
>>7497606
http://variety.com/2015/film/global/blumhouse-cohen-media-group-film4-team-on-adaptation-of-cult-novel-stoner-1201497532/
>>7497625
TOO SLOW MY FRIEND
>>7497525
More like the Coen brothers
DUDE WEED AND ACID LMAO
DUDE DRUGS DONT ACTUALLY PROVIDE ANY INSIGHT THEY JUST MAKE THE MUNDANE SEEM DEEP LMAO
DUDE EGO DEATH IS A MEME LMAO
DUDE DRUG INDUCED EGO DEATH IS NOT REAL BECAUSE NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE SUM OF OUR EXPERIENCES WITHOUT PERMANTENTLY DAMAGING THE BRAIN LMAO
>>7497869
Maybe Charlie Kaufman
>>7496161
I just finished Augustus two days ago, and it was really good. Maybe even as good as Stoner, i don't know yet.
>>7498047
Good to hear, Ill pick up a copy
>>7496621
You're literally the most pathetic person posting on 4chan anon, I wouldn't be too pleased with yourself.
>>7498594
Badlands Malick or tree of life Malick?
>>7498726
wow now that i think about it badlands malick would be perfect
or altman
>mfw reading stoner before spending christmas alone might have not been such a good idea
>>7498729
What about Steve Mcqueen?
Also recommend me some Altman, I've only seen 3 women
>>7498740
I think McQueen is too glossy. I don't think he could do early 20th century opaque gloomness well.
The Long Goodbye and 3 Women are his best work, after that The Player and Short Cuts (adaptation of Raymond Carver short stories). Nashville is like Short Cuts but I prefer Short Cuts.
>>7498751
Ill check those out, thanks g
I dislike when people say it's not a sad book.
I mean, it obviously gives you an uplifting feeling at the end, but even that is bittersweet with his farewell to Edith.
But the rest of the book is just fucking devastating, any hope of happiness gets crushed the next moment right in front of our eyes.
>>7498790
fuck edith, his farewell to finch tho :(((((
>>7498798
i really felt for edith at the end there
>>7498804
can you elaborate? it felt really hard to empathize with anything edith-related
>>7498810
i don't know, something about how sad she became made me really feel for them both.
>>7497553
Actually, I think that her marriage to Stoner was a way for Edith to try to escape the cycle she's trapped in, hence why she marries someone beneath her socially. She wants someone to give her a new, different life, a man of action which she perceives Stoner to be a first, due to his persistent attempts at courtship. But Stoner does not know how to escape these outside forces which control him, let alone help Edith, she ends up feeling nothing but spite. Her first attempt at change, with the repairs to the house, which is an attempt to improve both their lots, the second makeover is one meant to be totally destroy Stoner (though it seems doubtful that she is aware of this).
Her childlike approach is telling, as this follows her being 'made into a woman', so to speak. Yet she remains in a immature, stunted state throughout the whole novel. She seems frustrated by this fact, expecting, like many of us do as children, for maturity to hit us all at once, rather than something that you have to work for. She tries twice to make herself into an ideal woman: firstly, doting, loving wife that she was raised to be, and secondly, once she is able to move past this conception (her father dies, and with him, the ideals that he impressed upon her and represented to her: it is not simply that he dies but that he acted outside of the protocol that he represented), she can become the hip, modern woman, though she fails at this too.
Edith proves then to be the more tragic character. As with Stoner, she is pressed by forces which she seems powerless to avoid. Stoner, however, at least ends up in a place in life that he seems to enjoy, and find solace in, despite whatever failings. Edith, on the other hand, cannot even establish an identity of her own, trying to slot herself into socially ordained roles which she cannot fulfil. She has an unconscious envy for Stoner which manifests itself in what appear to be irrationally spiteful actions on her behalf.
>>7499388
>>7498823
through all of her bullshit she remained loyal to stoner, she obviously knew of his affair and was fine with it (maybe because it was one of the few ways she could allow stoner pleasure in life as his wife?). The ending really made me realize how dedicated she remained, on his deathbed she seemed somewhat hopeless. i always expected her to have an affair or take their daughter away, but she remained with him throughout it all despite her issues and i really came to respect her because of that -- even if she has major issues she cant control
This is a good thread. Bump.
>>7497426
KIAROSTAMI
I wish /lit had more threads like this.
>>7499782
She did take his daughter away. Quite literally.
so is this book just >tfw no gf bullshit normie feels or is it real depression
>>7498740
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
California Split
This is only polish edition of Stoner.
Looks like hipster bait ;_;
