What's the closest Sci-Fi/Fantasy can come to being considered literary? What is it about these genres that restrict them from entering into this category? Is it the fact that they are more plot oriented or spend more time on worldbuilding as opposed to dealing with characters and issues of the human condition? Is there always something that's going to hold them back from being considered 'true' literature?
Curious about what other people think. Also post sci-fi/fantasy books that you would consider to be literary or part of the canon of literature, as opposed to just the canon of genre.
>>7467224
I think Sci-Fi/Fantasy has an equal amount of literary merit versus pretty much any other genre, not because it's so good, but because 90% of everything is shit.
You have authors like Harlan Ellison and you have novels like Dune and 2001 that are Sci-Fi/Fantasy and are very fine pieces of work, and I assure you that the number of good Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels is equal to the number of good Romance/War/everything else novels.
>>7467224
Lem. And he's legitimately literary, not just 'close.'
>>7467224
isn't all literature posed to become science fiction due to the way technology has become so integrated into our lives?
>>7467224
Harry Potter is good. If you look at the underlying symbolism it stands for bigotry and racism. No other books can compare.
It's basically a comic book using only words.
>>7467288
>It's basically a comic book using only words.
Popcorn is just potato chips using only corn.
>>7467288
There's a whole other discussion of comics and graphic novels and whether or not they can be literary.
>>7467310
It's well known that they can. C&H were rated to be one of the greatest books on Reddit's list.
>>7467317
Cyanide & Happiness?
>>7467274
"no"
>>7467343
Cock and Hole
a seven issue comic series about me and your mum
>>7467343
I'd assume Calvin&Hobbes
and I haven't even ever read those
>>7467349
I don't read capeshit
this thread is off to a good start
>>7467224
I think genre fiction is seriously underrated. Asimov and Bradbury are probably the greatest authors we have ever had but they never get discussed here. Smh desu senpai.
>>7467224
Dune was very deep, not in a world-building sort of way, but there was quite a lot of philosophical musing about the nature of human civilisations, about individual consciousness and its relationship with time, etc.
Sci-fantasy/ Space opera. Sure there's planet jumping but it's about bloodlines and finding your fate. The jetpacks, rail guns, and alien princesses and are just window dressing
>>7467455
>fluff
Your own picture describes perfectly what most of your work is filled with.
>>7467224
Strugatzki, Strugatzki, Lem.
I wonder why Germany never had any good scifi.
>inb4 Perry Rhodan, he's no good
>>7467635
No, it's solid.
Is this literary? Allusions to The Canterbury Tales and the poetry of Keats. Deals with concepts such as the Abraham Dilemma, etc. Also has tons of worldbuilding and exposition.
Does it meet the criteria? Genuinely curious about this one.
>>7467651
There's proto SF like Gläserne Bienen, or Gail, nowadays there's Wolfgang Jeschke, Andreas Eschbach
Some people would mention Dath but I find his stuff overtly self-loving, it's all "i'm such a smartiepants communist look at my amazing works isn't this smart", it's not, it's shit
Vonnegut counts as sci-fi.
Atwood does as well.
Is someone like Asimov literary?
I think in terms of fantasy Le Guin counts as literary.
Does it seem like sci-fi tends to beat out fantasy for being more literary on average? I wonder why.
It takes time for a genre to become established as literature.
A superficial view of science fiction would conclude that it suffers from the horizon problem. Quality must dip over time, as novel technologies are discovered, adapted into the real world, become mundane and uninspiring, and fill some fixed container that is the sum of human knowledge.
In reality, the genre has always dealt with an ancient structure.
The hero's journey. Men tell stories to each other to reaffirm what is important in virtue moral and ethic.
Science Fiction has the added appeal of casting an oracle's gaze into some near or distant future and predicting the shape of things to come. This has a primordial appeal, as every human being seeks to know what lies beyond their own mortality.
Fantasy, or High Fantasy deals with romanticism. It pretends to use the hero's journey format, but it is often a disguise or a trope to engage the reader in a debate about man's role in nature.
The two are often blended together, and the distinction I made is purely preference. Both fall out of the Homeric Epics. If you want to 'get' Science Fiction or Fantasy on a level beyond a mental orgasm, it would greatly benefit you to read the Iliad. There are three fantastic translations which give increasingly deeper insight and should be read in this order: Pope, Lattimore, Fagles.
>>7468375
I'd argue that mythology served an entirely different point than modern fantasy does today.
>>7467274
wut
>>7468393
Sure, all I'm saying is the roots of modern fiction lie in an ancient way to teach people how to be decent.
>>7467358
You missed out. Get on it senpai
>>7468040
It's definitely in the league of sci-fi greatness when it comes. All I could do was curse Peter F Hamilton the entire first read-through of Hyperion though. Take Dan Simmons, ramp up the sex, and poof you have Peter F Hamilton.
>>7467455
Even if they are just mediocre novels anon, bravo. Don't listen to a single little shit on here that wants to bring you down simply because they hate that you've gone past the laziness and the self-doubt and actually attempted and completed something
>>7468478
>thinking the long narrative form begin solely to teach morals
>>7468048
>Gläserne Bienen
Scifi by Ernst Jünger, heh. Thanks for the rec and Otto Willi, I'll look into them.
>Eschenbach
Der Jesus-Deal, das Jesus-Video, Bastei Lübbe, I don't know.
>>7468393
Elaborate anon. I'm interested.
>>7469681
To put it as concisely as I can:
Mythology existed as a means to apply reason to the world, modern fantasy exists as a means to get away from the established reason of the world.
>>7467224
Lord of the Rings and Book of the New Sun are the /lit/ response if there was one.
>>7467317
>on Reddit's list
>>7468657
>actually attempted and completed something
And that "something" is reading genre fiction? kek, what a winner
>implying Dukaj isnt god-tier modern writer
>>7471397
>implying Reddit is bad
Just because it's played out, doesn't make it bad.
>>7471458
>implying you are not a Polish libertarian faggot that needs to go back to reddit
>>7471116
>Mythology existed as a means to apply reason to the world
That's only 1 of the functions mythology served, the pedagogical function which presents an image of the cosmos that will maintain your sense of mystical awe and explain everything that you come into contact with in the universe around you.
There are 3 other functions that myth serve:
To evoke in the individual a sense of grateful, affirmative awe before the monstrous mystery of existence.
The third function of a mythological order is to validate and maintain a certain sociological
system: a shared set of rights and wrongs, proprieties or improprieties, on which your particular social unit depends for its existence.
The fourth function of myth is psychological. That myth must carry the individual through the stages of his life, from birth through maturity through senility to death. The mythology must do so in accords with the social order of his group, the cosmos as understood by his group, and the monstrous mystery.
>>7471409
No anon, it's WRITING fiction. That is monumentally more challenging to complete than reading. If you haven't tried to write an entire novel you should try. You can't see a single page on any of those books by the way and you are still trying to tell me what's in them, bravo.
>>7473383
I think summing all that up as "reason" is the best way to do it concisely.
I would call Dune, The Lord of the Rings, and I, Robot literature.
Also T.H. White's The Once and Future King.
>>7473383
>>7467242
>>7473713
>>7473391
Writing fiction isn't worth doing unless it makes money, and with books like Sword of Truth and Tyranny of the Night out there it's clear that what makes money is either completely up to chance or is based on perverse incentives.
>>7468040
To my mind, reminding one's readers about the existence of Chaucer and Keats repeatedly during one's characterisation-free, tedious, 100% expo, schlocky space opera was not a sound business decision
>>7473745
>Writing fiction isn't worth doing unless it makes money
That is entirely your opinion motherfucker. You sound like a complete hack. Did you honestly even think about what you were typing before you pressed your pathetic fucking finger on your dirty enter key. How can such a total moron even make it through life long enough to type this out. It must have taken such a retard at least 2 years to find all the keys on your computer you fucking dickhead. You are a perfect example of why mothers should smother their retarded children. I hope that someone comes into your house when you are sleeping, rapes you, and slowly kills you before your toxicly high levels of retardation spreads to anyone else. Are you still mad from when your brother didn't share a cookie with you when you were 2 you fucking asshole? Lol, that would be fitting you stupid ass whore, I bet your mom tried to abort you, it's a shame she didn't cause you turned out selfish and retarded. Maybe you should start using your brain, assuming that it isnt overrun with fucking retard brain juice. Better get google up and bing some clever comebacks bitch. Go get lost in the woods and lick monkey cunt, fucking dumbass. I hope your computer fucking catches fire cause I don't want anyone in the world to be subject to reading your horrible fucking ideas. Go to Africa where everyone is retarded and maybe you will finally fit in there. Oh wait, you won't cause you are also gay and love monkey dick and then get shot up by niggers. No one would attend your funeral cause of how much dick you sucked they all hate you stupid faggot maybe the world would have been better if your entire family tree was chopped down with a mohawk. Just give up on life now you colossal retard before I track you down and find you. Make no mistake, I have the technology to do it and you know I will make full use of all the weapons at my disposal. RIP in peace, faggot.
>>7467224
Dhalgren and The Hobbit
I'd argue that most of Philip K. Dick's works are literary.
>>7468235
Atwood is speculative fiction.
>>7467285
>Harry Potter is good.
Do you also think ASOIAF is good too?
Roadside Picnic
>>7478089
Also, Stanislaw Lem (Futurlogical Congress & Cyberiad & Solaris) - yes there are plenty of literary SF books.
Probably at least some of PKD, Harlan Ellison, and others. Hard to define what constitutes something being literary, but probably anywhere that the narrative/plot elements are not as important as deeper themes throughout the work that create genuine insights or questions about life. Either that or the writing is just so aesthetically good that it transcends its genre. But probably if it's the latter it's also the former.
Wolfe will Book of the New Sun, Peace and Fifth Head of Cerberus
Le Guin with Left Hand of Darkness and Dispossessed
Lem with Solaris
Dick with Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldrich and A Scanner Darkly
There are more of course, but these are my favourites.
