I saw this thread on /tv, and I thought I would try to bring it here, on lit, for a more thorough discussion. I'm sure you guys have talked about this before, but I have to ask, What does lit think, not just about Pegg's statement, but about the idea of second childhood in general?
Pegg Article: http://www.avclub.com/article/simon-pegg-worried-our-obsession-nerd-culture-infa-219672
A. O. Scott Article of NYTimes on Modern Adulthood: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/magazine/the-death-of-adulthood-in-american-culture.html?_r=0
>>7461981
The man may star in funny poop joke movies but he's still british.
inevitable progress of an old trend. blame 19th century romantics.
this is not new or particularly interesting.
I'm finding it impossible to have a second childhood. I simply don't enjoy childish things.
America is one big psychiatrical clinic
Mass dementia praecox is the only explanation
>>7462012
How is this a result of the romantics? If you will.
>>7462037
ok trashman
>>7462042
The romantics were all like DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT
Given the repression at the time, no one could have foreseen the consequences of this line of thinking if taken to its logical conclusion.
I don't think having a bunch of immature adults running around is a bad thing though.
Look at Japan for example; that whole country is full of man and women children yet they seem to be doing pretty well.
Well, except for their high suicide rate.
>>7461981
>tfw born just in time to see the end of pomo
>>7462084
Invented adolescence? I was under the impression that until fairly recently, European children were by and large treated as mini adults with a more refined and mature sense of logic and emotional complexity. Recent research into child psychology proved this line of thought to be incorrect. Do you disagree with that or am I just overreaching?
I think this infantilism of society also ties into our societies obsession with nostalgia, and that is part of what feeds this "geek/introvert" culture. People everyday share posts they made on Facebook only a year or two ago as if they are looking lost icons of a golden age.
People have misconstrued introversion and use it as a means to justify their selfishness. Identifying as a geek is also a way to ascribe to yourself some sort of unique individuality... But in reality your geekiness is not unique at all.
>>7462102
>except for their high suicide rate
>and loneliness
>and WWII war crimes
>and generational autism
>well, really, I just like their cute girl cartoons and robots
Let's be honest here anon, we all love Japan but it's not a psychologically sound country.
>>7462216
kek
>>7462216
kek for the truth
>>7462203
disagree with what? both of the things you said are correct.
People are no longer religious so they seek meaning in identity defined by consumption of certain products.
>>7462102
Wait, you mean Japan, Japan? The Japan that has stopped fucking? The Japan that is literally killing itself from the inside out?
>>7462248
OK. I'm just confused because it seemed as if you are implying that the idea of adolescence and it's prominence in modern psychology was a bad thing.
>>7462180
And I, for one, thank God for the death of pomo.
My only concern, however, is if the death of pomo will be the rise of metamodernism...
God help us all.
>In the 18 years since we wrote Spaced, this extended adolescence has been cannily co-opted by market forces, who have identified this relatively new demographic as an incredibly lucrative wellspring of consumerist potential. Suddenly, here was an entire generation crying out for an evolved version of the things they were consuming as children. This demographic is now well and truly serviced in all facets of entertainment and the first and second childhoods have merged into a mainstream phenomenon[...]
This really is his best observation, I always thought the root was in economics.
Nerd culture mostly deals with franchises, and franchises contain variety. That means something that you first have contact at age of 12 can still be produced and aimed at the "grown" you when you're 30, simply changing its style but maintaining the content. From the point of someone in the entertainment industry, it's pretty obvious why financing this type of product is better as a business.
>>7462293
i wasnt
>>7462253
Correct.
>>7462301
I like metamodernism, but I admit I don't like the actual term or the word "metamodernism."
>>7462318
Which is why we all post here
>>7462336
What about meta ironic memes?
>>7462340
No, I'm actually religious.
I post here because it's literally the only place to discuss literature and philosophy.
Also memes.
>>7461981
Reported for not /lit/
>>7462343
Well I've heard some fairly convincing arguments that memes themselves have emerged as an art in itself.
I don't necessarily agree with all of the argument, but it's interesting to think about.
>>7462351
Memes have become so meta that I don't even know why I find them funny.
>>7462349
I would argue it is lit, or at least it is in the sense that the topic is about media production and how modern marketing is very intent on keeping us interested in the things we enjoyed as children. Toys, games, movies, and yes, even lit.
>>7462309
So, then what is the connection between the "discovery" of adolescence and the modern capitalist desire to prolong it? Apologies if I am just being daft here.
>>7462354
I had a conversation with one guy who described Banksy as the first (at least, the first recognized) "meme" artist. Recognition by the established art world, he meant. The gist was that Warhol was basically the pinnacle of pop art. When Warfol died, the pop art style died a relatively quick death. This "meme" art has basically emerged in its place. He put Shepard Fairey in this same category, although he thought Banksy is head and shoulders a better representative and more talented artist in the style.
But we were both drunk, and I don't recall the specifics. May have even been bullshit? I don't know. I just remember it was a decent conversation.
>>7462369
It is not explicitly book related; therefore, reported. Elitism is the only thing that keeps this board from becoming another /tv/. Sorry.
>>7462029
>I simply don't enjoy childish things.
>On 4Chan bragging
>>7462102
Japans declining birth rate is a MASSIVE issue that is already forcing economic readjustments. Japan will not survive the next 50 years without some change in it's management
>>7462428
They should import Syrian refugees to keep the birth rate up.
>>7462428
sauce
beside what you pick up on/pol/, of course
>>7462037
x is welcome here anytime
>>7462444
google "japan birth rate," dipshit.
Your first results are from the Washington Post, Reuters, the BBC, etc.
>>7462401
What is the categorical difference between pop art and meme art?
>>7462216
>and WWII war crimes
Like that time they dropped nuclear bombs on two cities full of civilians.
>>7462405
Not to be a poor sport. But that seems kind of unfair. How many threads do we get over lit's circejerk booktuber cutie of the week? Those don't get reported, and the discussion is not even about books, or reading, or anything even remotely /lit/. We have fucking vidya and anime threads here. I made this thread because I wanted to talk about how mass media is being produced. I would argue that literature is a part of that and is intrinsically affected.
>>7462471
>booktuber cuties
Those need to be reported senpai.
>>7462468
The US committed war crimes against innocent Japanese civilians during WWII but Japan also committed crimes against China as well. You had Manchuria, Nanking, and then the use of the Kempetai
>>7462444
Japans demographic crisis is basic human geography, I learnt about this at 16
http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2014/03/japans-demography
https://www.stratfor.com/sample/image/japans-future-demographic-challenge
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/asia/1997-05-01/japans-aging-economics
>[HUXLEY INTENSIFIES]
>>7462428
>the year is 20XX and anons all over the world are disappearing. Polices of every country try to understand the mysterious abducter's pattern of capturing young males whose only common point was that they browsed the infamous 4chan forum.
>in Japan, all anons wake up to find that the reason of their abduction is in fact that Japan has some prime azn pussy that needs fugging and the beta jap males can't deliver
>>7462466
Well I don't necessarily know. It's not my theory. I was just the person listening.
As far as I understand it, Pop Art takes its form via mass culture. Meme Art, although it often does deal with mass culture, isn't bound to it. Pop Art takes mass culture and reappropriates it, while Meme Art often influences the mass culture.
I've never been good at explaining art, so don't read that as any sort of definition or anything.
>>7462436
western betas*
i want my qt japanese waifu damn it
>>7462471
All of the threads you mentioned should be reported. Really, it's only the crossposters that make and reply to game and anime threads.
>>7462444
don't you know of the story of the boy who cried /pol/?
>>7461981
Now I feel like a man-child. 25yo, free-loading from my parents, the NEET life.
What can I do against this feeling? Watch a movie? Become a feminist?
>>7462539
he was right everytime?
>>7462554
yes but the villagers got weary of it so they didn't listen. So then /pol/ ate all the sheep instead of some sheep.
The villagers prefer when the boy cries /pol/ when it matters and when there is no other way to save the sheep.
(the sheep being an argument I guess)
>>7462468
>tu qoque
Fuck off, weeb
>>7462546
Work towards self sufficiency.
>>7462303
Isn't this just an extension of the basic marketing principle of getting young consumers to 'decide' on a particular product early on in life so they'll be lifelong buyers of that product?
The only difference is that here it is completely cultural. The same thing already happened, just with material goods instead of entertainment.
>>7462253
is there any way to circumvent this without reverting back to religion?
>>7462574
Do you not understand what tu quoque is? Also check your spelling next time.
I think it connects with how attention span and love for trivial infos has increased.
In my country, Italy, our school's teaching methods are "notions based", we dont learn critical thinking, we memorize things.
So when school is over we think we know the Divine Comedy but we dont, we think we know or even understand history...but then, you might tell me, that X war started because Y guy got killed, but why, what are the implications of it....and...well a whole lot of questions.
I fear that we may be losing touch with subtlety, I noticed a friend of mine, blindly praising some shallow, bland works, for he was ignorant of what caused them, he spoke ill of philosophy while trying to uknowningly preach it, he openly lamented over movies not outright showing certain events, but this is just an anecdote.
>>7462468
You think Japan would have understood what war meant if a military base got hit?
Also
>2015
>using logical fallacies
Read your greek is not a meme you tyro.
>>7462574
I never said that the Japs didn't commit war crimes. Learn how to reference logical fallacies correctly. And have some integrity for fuck's sake.
>>7462336
Exactly, it's too passé.
To be frank, or ``t b h'' as us ``metamodernists'' like to say, it's too popular, we need to find a new term that better suits our narcissistic end of trying to one-up each other by being as obscure as possible.
>>7462574
>thinking that's tu quoque
are you an idiot?
>>7462428
Maybe Japan will go full Huxley
>>7462604
Yup. That's why I don't like it.
>>7462599
What is this? Semantic wars, you know damn well what you implied, you clearly tried to divert that conversation somewhere else or to shut him up because....I dont know.
>>7462596
What logical fallacy did he use? And are you stating that the US is justified in killing innocent civilians because of actions the government took?
Because then you sound like Osama b. Laden.
>>7462538
Different anon but imho this thread should stay because a lot of the modern literary world has been infantalized.
>>7461981
There's a very, very good response to that second article, and I recommend all of you guys read it. It's from a fairly obscure publication, but it's one of the most thoughtful things I've read in a long time.
http://thepointmag.com/2014/criticism/adult-conversation
>>7462554
Pathetic
>>7462577
T. Ted Kaczynski
>>7462596
>You think Japan would have understood what war meant if a military base got hit?
I'm at a loss here, I can't grasp your sentence.
You sure know that the firebombing campaign in Japan was even worse than the one in Germany? The A-bombs were just "the icing on the cake".
>You think Japan would have understood
Is this some kind of hetalia reference? Countries are not persons.
>>7462613
The nukes were justified and so was 9/11. If you don't think so, you're a kek.
>>7462612
>you know damn well what you implied
But apparently you don't. You can't use the committing of war crimes as proof the Japanese are crazy because pretty much every country with a military is guilty of it.
>>7462613
Red Herring
>>7462336
>Google metamodernism
>Find http://www.metamodernism.org/
I don't like this
>>7462640
Edgy.
>>7462585
No. Existentialism and literature paint this the best.
>>7462645
That's literally tu quoque
Just because other countries do it doesn't mean it's right and they aren't crazy
>>7462660
if everyone is crazy the word has no meaning
>>7462656
Prove the statement wrong without folding to logical fallacy. Protip: you can't.
>>7462662
Nobody but you implied that everyone is crazy.
>>7462655
Well I certainly don't think anything, a literature style in particular, should have a fucking manifesto. Jesus Christ. I now hate metamodernism.
>>7462626
Thanks for linking Anon, this is some good shit
>>7462675
you're welcome, kind anon
>>7462668
im not that guy
>Just because other countries do it doesn't mean it's right and they aren't crazy
according to you, if all countries do 'it' then they are crazy regardless. so your definition has no meaning.
>>7462686
Every country isn't "everyone"
>>7462685
You convinced me tbqh
>>7462689
it is in this context. why did you think i was talking about individuals?
>>7462703
>implying this is /lit/'s doing
crossposters bruh
>>7462703
That wasn't the point. The point was The U.S. was justified for fighting back in Pearl Harbour but not for doing 9/11 and creating a war in the Middle East for oil and Israel.
>>7462712
I'm not a crossposter. Anyone with any sense would believe 9/11 is justified if they also thought the nukes were justified based on the reasoning they give. And in fact 9/11 was much more justified than the nukes.
>>7462712
Probably.
>>7462714
?
If you think the US is justified for nuking Japan because of Pearl Harbor, why weren't the terrorists justified for 9/11 because of the US' multiple detrimental actions in the Middle East?
>>7462695
But it isn't, not every country is representative of its people.
>>7461981
>>7462210
>>7462626
Thanks for links and posts.
>>7462726
The terrorists didn't do 9/11. They were government plants to start a war. Trained by CIA money. They believed they were working with Muslims but it was most likely a CIA instructed job. Then the shills supported the war and soon the US was fighting the war for oil and Israel.
>>7462736
I know the US' pretenses for war weren't vengeance and that they likely could have prevented 9/11 and had the information beforehand but I doubt that it was an "inside job".
If "nerd culture" ever had any authentic elements to it, they've been stripped away long ago. It's now a label for people, promoted by marketing teams as a means of selling commodities. That's why it's "so nerdy" to attend popular movies like the upcoming Star Wars and whatever superhero spinoff movies are around the corner. The "mainstreamification" of geek/nerd "culture" was honestly ripe for the picking. What better way to push product than to tell people they're special?
Pegg, I think, is right in his brief analysis, even if it is nothing new.
>>7462012
>inevitable progress
}:|
>>7462301
>metamodernism
lol
>>7462728
>But it isn't
nice way of putting words in my mouth. who are you to tell me what my indefinite pronouns mean?
>>7462743
It would fill in the blanks. The US drums up support with a false-flag operation and then soon we are doing Israel and Saudi Arabia's bidding.
>>7461981
I have to applaud AV Club for giving Pegg a sympathetic portrayal here. I remember when that story first broke he quickly became a pariah all over the internet, and I would have pegged the AV Club as the type of website to join in on the condemnation.
>>7462746
>}:|
i wasn't talking about whatever nerd shit you're spewing on about, but about the idea of adolescence.
>>7462747
That's irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Japan committed war crimes, deal with it.
>>7462754
Yeah and I'm skeptical of the idea that the valorizing of innocent adolescent times (that you linked back to the Romantic era) would necessarily lead to what we have now.
>> }:|
>>7462466
About 30 years
>>7462757
>Japan committed war crimes, deal with it.
No one in this thread claimed otherwise. Take your meds, shithead.
>>7462757
>That's irrelevant to the topic at hand.
if what I said was irrelevant then why did you reply to it?
>Japan committed war crimes, deal with it.
???
you realize that's a discussion you're have with someone else. sure, by all means, they did.
>>7462746
can't escape the spectacle, friend. might as well drink and shitpost our sorrows away until our inevitable demise.
>>7462757
That's not what justified the bombings, Xi.
>>7462765
>implying adolescence hasn't been creeping upwards and upwards in age throughout the whole of the 20th century
:v
>>7462773
Doesn't matter, the bombings are irrelevant and were brought up by some butthurt weeb to divert attention from the fact that Japan committed war crimes.
>>7462685
This is why I support 9/11.
>>7462769
so nothing wrong with a culture that commits genocides?
>>7462784
Like Western culture?
>>7462783
>support 9/11
>don't support U.S. government
Pick one. One leads into the other. You're a fool to think otherwise.
>>7462795
I know these terrorist groups are falling into the hands of the US but I really want there to be a group that can fight this imperialist oppression and occupation. I think only Iran, Hezbollah, and anti-Kurdistan Kurds can do that tbqh.
>>7462810
I wasn't the person who started this.
>>7462789
>identity by production
So, you are a narcissist then?
Reposting a comment I made in the original /tv/ thread. I was really excited about the topic and then the thread was quickly deleted.
The internet had made it so that the vocal consumer is undistinguishable from advertising. Think of all the viral marketing, all the posts that people suspect of being studio plants. That's a more literal example, but nerd shit really is part of a big self-sustaining machine that helps distracts us from the realities of modern life. Nerd shit is so effective too, because it's so giving, it's entertaining as immersive as fuck. I love comics and I love big action filled movies, but the whole thing is also incredibly poisonous on some level.
>>7462802
so nazism is okay because other people hated jews?
>>7462813
The more the reason to just drop it.
>>7462816
Point out the post where someone said Japanese war crimes were okay. Otherwise stop posting, retard.
>>7462814
I've no idea how you got that.
I mean like, you're a painter, an actor, an engineer or something. Constantly be creating something instead of consuming.
>>7462820
Sorry that you Americans are so triggered when someone criticizes your country for its numerous crimes against humanity.
>>7462833
Sorry that you weebs get so butthurt when someone criticizes Japan.
>>7462842
If you get triggered from hearing about things America has done wrong, then aren't you being an "ultra-nationalist" in that respect?
>>7462842
Are you legitimately retarded? I don't know how to explain this in a simpler way.
1. War crimes are not okay.
2. War crimes are not proof a nation is "crazy" because unfortunately all nations have committed them.
The above two statements do not contradict each other. If you're still confused after this post I don't know what to tell you.
>>7462827
So, having a job is your philosophy to life?
>Constantly be creating something instead of consuming.
I'm all in for not doing anything, if I don't have anything worthwhile to say.
Please, explain more of your principles. I'm genuinely interested.
>>7462855
>Sorry that you non-Americans get so triggered over your inability to stop our actions.
I am American. Can't wait until you start justifying the government's innumerable crimes though by saying how the people afflicted were/are "subhuman", "savages", or "inferior".
>>7462869
I'm not justifying anything but keep being analpainef that none of use but you care and that we're just here to shit on Japan.
>>7462876
I don't care if you shit on Japan. Japan has done horrible things. I care when you idiots think what Japan had done allowed the US to drop the bombs.
>>7462180
hmm where have I seen this bathroom before...
>>7462878
Look, we get it. You have a real hateboner for Japan. Maybe you got bullied by Japs or a nip raped you up the ass. Who knows. But you have no sense of proportion or reason in you, and you're thoroughly embarrassing yourself here. Why do this to yourself?
>>7462888
And none of us care whether it's justified or not, stay mad and keep being asshurt so much you bring up the US whenever Japan is mentioned, like a typical edgy argumentative teen tho.
>>7462893
i have a "hateboner" for chauvinistic societies and retards that defend them.
>>7462878
>but cultures that that push for the extermination of anything different for the sake of the nation are?
What?
>also comparing someone defending his country with the mass murder of millions is foolish.
?
>>7462895
I didn't bring it up. Someone else did. I was the first one to remind him that Japan also committed war crimes.
>>7462901
Keep being mad that nobody cares then.
>>7462903
I'm only mad that there are mouthbreathers like you who think killing innocent people for crimes they didn't commit is ever justified.
>>7462910
Keep on thinking I think it's justified, whatever keeps you angry.
>>7462864
I'm starting to feel more and more retarded. Not really a job, more like a hobby or discipline, if that sounds better.
A job is something you do so you can have the luxury of food. It can be your passion, but for most people it isn't.
I believe that creation is a sublime act. It can be full of passion or stoic, but to create something is good, even if only to pass the time. It bothers me that so many people would rather watch endless movies, without even examining them.
Finding something to funnel your ideas and energy into is good. Putting out there who you are and what you are capable of. I also think that doing this leads to self-improvement (when playing an instrument or moving or whatever, you have to really think about what you're doing. It's kind of reflective).
You can already see the effects of rehashing old ideas. Movies that play off of nostalgia, geek culture, repetition for it's own sake. It's like people are more concerned with what they can get rather than what they can give
It's flawed, but it's the best I got for now.
>>7462585
Nope. People simply can´t live off reality
>>7462757
You should know that there is only one war crime and its losing the war.
>>7462964
>A job is something you do so you can have the luxury of food.
Food is, in this age, not a luxury anymore.
>but to create something is good
Why should there be anything good in creating?
>Putting out there who you are and what you are capable of.
Who are you, then?
>Finding something to funnel your ideas and energy into is good.
Sitting in my comfy bed, drinking beer, watching anime. Just as good as my last productive project.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q91pblYpBoY
>>7462102
Isn't a fair share of Japanese man ridiculously overworked salaryman who are the exactly kind of people who would contribute to suicide rates?
>>7462253
Having a stable job and a wife doesn't excatly impede your consumption.
I fail to see how comic books and movies are the drivers of infantilization. I would say that poor philosophy and intellectual fashion are the main drivers of infantilization. There is a glut of critical philosophies that fail to sufficiently describe the systems that they set out to correct (or undermine), insufficient descriptive knowledge denies agency to the disciples and drives irrational actions. SJWs and helicopter parents come from the same epistemologically rotten philosophies. The other big problem is that signalling intelligence and virtue is more important than in acting them, which is probably why Continental philosophy is so popular with the chattering class.
>>7462253
meaning of life is to consume energy in order to produce negentropy
>>7463361
>this is what man-children actually believe
>inb4 CS Lewis quote about how it's adult to enjoy childish things unironically
>>7463361
/pol/ attributing everything to sjw and continental philosophy wow what a novel bait
>>7462401
One is parody, the other pastiche. See Jameson, Postmodernism, or...
I'm not sure which is which though.
>>7463366
>he didn't understand one word of anon's post
>>7462864
I mean I get what this guy is talking about. Creating something worthwhile that has even a small effect on peoples lives is immensely satisfying. It's hard thing to do nowadays, because of the alienation but still.
>>7463366
>>7463374
I don't really care about comics books or movies that much. Though I would say it is true that our culture has a massive deficit descriptive/technical intelligence. Anti-vacs, anti-nuclear, anti-capitalists, environmental movement, Greenpeace, primitivists, PETA, ect, ect are all groups that have formed as result of bad or ignorant criticism. I stand by my claim of Continental philosophy being infantlizing since fails to empirically understand the system it criticizes. Without understanding one can not have agency, agency and responsibility are define adulthood.
>>7463422
>maybe if i repeat myself people will take me seriously
>>7463422
Really?
>>7463431
just trying to speak your language anon, you have failed to counter anything
>>7463441
>shit! they figured out i'm a crossboarder!
>deflect!
>deflect!
>>7463085
What was your last productive project thought?
I'm not the guy you are replying to. I'm a fa/tg/uy. I spend a lot of like you described by once in a while something hits me and I'm moved to run a game. I get inspired, come up with cool ideas, rules, plots and what not. I gather a bunch a of players and see my vision realized before my eye. That shit is a lot of work but it's immensely satisfying.
>>7463447
what are your issues? Are you honestly going to say that members of Greenpeace have any decent understanding of nuclear physics. That Marxists/Situationists/Anarchist have a basic understanding of economics. That the anti-vac movement has any understanding of medicine of biology. Reading Judith Butler is far more infatilizing that watching Michael Bay jizz explosions on screen for two hours.
>>7463448
>he thinks his ranting is substantial enough to merit countering
oh my god keep going
>>7463491
still waiting for a counter
>>7463494
>validate me!!!
>>7463499
>says I am wrong and a man child
>responds to call for counter argument with memes
>>7463508
Basically the same tactics as any user from r/shitredditsays.
>>7463508
i never called you wrong or a manchild, what are you on about m8? i called you a /pol/eb. to call you wrong would be to give you too much credit.
>>7463528
don't worry, you resorting to ad memeinem already validated my point
>>7463538
>implying you had a point
>>7461981
>there is more intelligent argument against male privilege than in defense of it
stopped reading right there fæm
>>7463457
I only go on /lit/, "greentexting" belongs on one of the containment boards.
>>7463422
> he thinks academic philosophy of any kind has significant impact on the wider world
retard
>>7463544
Not him but he "won"
>>7463586
>wasn't here for the brownbear greentext threads
those boards were made for people like you anon
>>7463587
it did in the 60s and the groups that I listed were certainly influenced by academic philosophy
>>7463586
Greentexting is a part of 4chan's culture.
I'm guessing you would leave 4chan for another forum in a heartbeat if you could find the same discussion you do on here, right? Keep in mind that this site was made by and for 4channers.
>>7463590
idiots only win when you engage with their idiocy
>>7463586
sorry to tear away your high-class facade but you're posting on 4chan, you're not classy. Reading literature or philosophy is a hobby.
personally I blame the jew Judith Butler and the jewish cultural marxists like Adorno and Benjamin. I know some might say "but they're marginal academics, the only Americans who even recognize their names are the 150 other marginal academics who study them. How could they possibly shape an entire generation?"
I'll tell you how: they're jewish. they all attend the yearly jewish-only secret meetings, where the bankers and continental philosophers plan their attack on America. don't believe me? have you ever even seen infowars? maybe if you spent some time educating yourself you wouldn't be such a sheeple.
>>7463621
sounds legit anon where might i subscribe to your newsletter
>>7463606
and what kind of impact do those groups have? jackshit ,because people don't care.
>>7463625
A lot in terms of getting things done, in litigation, and creating red tape.
>>7463606
>it did in the 60s
find me a single english translation from any of the frankfurt school prior to '75
>>7463635
Dialektik der Aufklärung was published in English in 72. But I'm on your side, I just wanted to show off.
>>7463614
Which is why I'm going to cease engaging you; you're just trying to get the last reply.
>>7463644
newfag detected
>>7463631
> everything I don't like can be blamed on a branch of philosophy that only studied by <10 philosophy departments in America
ok, let's just say that's not an absurd claim and move forward. specifically, which authors do you think have infantalized america and spawned nerd culture? which of their specific arguments do you think had such a profound effect on mass culture?
>>7463635
Eclipse of Reason, Reason and Revolution, Eros and Civilization, Escape from Freedom, 1D Man were all in first published in English. I am sure that The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction would of been translated before 1970.
>>7463654
not him, but i'll name critical theory
>>7463650
>cease engaging me
>cease
you had already ceased bro, your last reply to me was >>7463538
you're life must be so confusing
the star trek beyond trailer looks atrocious
biggest flop of 2016 guaranteed
we wont be hearing from pegg again
>>7463663
>asked about specific arguments and authors
>'critical theory'
Truly you people are enlightened.
>>7463660
does anyone take marcuse seriously to be honest? one dimensional man was so off base it's funny
>>7463663
>which of their specific arguments do you think had such a profound effect on mass culture?
get to work. also helpful would a genealogy of nerd culture tracing it's origins to these cultural theorists.
>>7463683
>asking for proof
Just LISTEN AND BELIEVE, anon.
>>7463696
What's that? You can't? I'm shocked. Who could have predicted the intellectual vacuity of shitposters?
>>7463706
Give me an entire geneolgy of the philosophers circlejerking about your theory of choice
>>7463715
What's that? You can't? I'm shocked. Who could have predicted the intellectual vacuity of people that have different opinions than me?
>>7463654
Critical theory is taught in nearly every English department, as is post-colonialism, and feminist lit. A lot of sociology and cultural studies is seen through the lens of these theories. These are not obscure thinkers and their ideas have trickled down through out the academy.
Also I am saying that the fact that nerd culture existing does not say much of America being infantalized. To be infantalized would mean that people are unable to meet their needs or be responsible citizens, I don't see nerd culture doing much here.
I would say that critical theory has played a large part in the infantalization of modern society, during the hippie era it pushed the notion of Turn on, tune in, drop out. That the only way to be authentic is to rebel against society even if one does not understand what they are rebelling against. A lot of arguments for political correctness were made in Repressive Tolerance, that paved the wave for trigger warnings/safe spaces/language codes. It gives credibility to pseudo intellectuals like Zizek. It reduces and rationalizes the irresponsibility of criminals as being products of broken systems.
>>7463696
>Not particularly talking about nerd culture either, more about modern philosophies and academia
ahh I see now, you've downgraded your claim to be that past philosophy has influenced current philosophy
get a load of this guy and his massive claims.
>>7463736
>grr i know some words grr my opinions matter grr take me seriously
adorable
>>7463736
>during the hippie era it pushed the notion of Turn on, tune in, drop out.
first time I've heard Tim Leary referenced as a "critical theorist"
> A lot of arguments for political correctness were made in Repressive Tolerance, that paved the wave for trigger warnings/safe spaces/language codes.
Correct again! Identity politics is exactly the same as Marxism! That why Marx and his followers advocated, in the fashion of identity politics, that the proles must be accepted as they are by the bourgeois. All the proles wanted was for their identity as proles to be acknowledged by the wider culture! And further, in typical marxist fashion, ideas shape reality, so all you need is more language codes and poof, material inequality disappears!
get a grip, kid.
>>7463766
>.>
<.<
^_^
>>7463775
>first time I've heard Tim Leary referenced as a "critical theorist"
you know that he got that line from Marshall McLuhan
>some pathetic attempt at irony
I am not pushing some conservative conspiracy theory of the take over of the West by Marxists. I am saying that a lot of the criticism of the West is rooted in ignorance. That a lot of the scholarship and theory is nothing more than political ideology. That progressive arguments for language codes and safe spaces have roots in critical theory.
>>7463809
>Marshall McLuhan
also not a critical theorist. try again.
> That progressive arguments for language codes and safe spaces have roots in critical theory.
again, these are arguments that come out of what's broadly called identity politics. this is empirically (and easily) verifiable. had you read any of the marxist theorists you cite you'd understand how truly absurd it is to equate the two.
>>7463781
0_o
>>7463809
>you know that he got that line from Marshall McLuhan
what's the claim being made here? that McLuhan somehow infected Leary with his dangerous critical theory agenda by giving him a catch phrase?
and you claim this isn't a conspiracy theory . . .
>>7463846
>:')
>>7463884
-_-
>>7463670
That wasn't me but keep up with your boogeymen
>>7463836
>>7463883
pls. McLuhan may not be one the original Frankfurt critical theorists, but he is the father of critical communications. One does not have to be Adorno, Marcuse, or Benjamin to be a critical theorist. The claim being made is that Leary's ideas come from the same critical camp.
Identity politics is the product of the new left which absorbed a large amount of critical theory into its ideology. These theorist laid down the argument that language plays a role in oppressing them. Hell Marcuse makes an argument against free speech in A Critique of Pure Tolerance. Have you done your readings?
>>7463901
>boogeymen
lol
>>7462599
But you know damn well that Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't easily classified as "muh ebil war crimez." It's a cheap way to divert an already complicated conversation into another controversial topic. Moreover, it's obvious that "war crimez hurr xD" is an infantile excuse to group two with very little in common.
>>7462685
>democracy directly represents the will of the people
>critical theory caused the infantilization of society
This is seriously the dumbest shit ever and I wish people would stop parroting it. Anyone who says this has not actually read The Culture Industry. Adorno was a HUGE critic of capitalists who opportunistically prey on people with shit taste, i.e. everyone who now self-identifies as a "geek" because they like Star Wars. He despised the idea of people being sold an identity. That's where your modern "geek" culture and infantilization comes from.
>>7463928
>implying the American government doesn't claim that it represents the will of the people
Can't really blame someone from making the conclusion that if a government that says it represents its people commits atrocities in your home country then the people that government represents wanted their military to commit atrocities against your countrymen.
>>7463906
>These theorist laid down the argument that language plays a role in oppressing them.
Jesus christ dude this is literally, literally the opposite of marxism. To the extent that non-orthodox marxists believed ideas could play a role in shape reality, it was at the level of ideology, not language, and they never held ideology (much less language) is the sole determining factor of material reality.
> The claim being made is that Leary's ideas come from the same critical camp.
Fine, the show it. Quote Leary where he has used the ideas of the frankfurt school, and show how those ideas came to be embraced by the wider culture.
> Hell Marcuse makes an argument against free speech in A Critique of Pure Tolerance.
yeah, something that's implied already in Marx. But what's the connection to identity politics? That they're both critical of free speech? Stalin was critical of free speech as well. Was Stalin a tumblurina? Was McCarthy?
>>7463916
Keep on trying to get that last reply
>>7463938
this guys wrong, I read the culture industry and it has 5 chapters on white male privilege and how women's voices are being silenced when they're not included in video games.
>>7463958
>projecting this hard
>>7463957
pffft, non-orthodox Marxists were playing with that idea since Gramsci.
I am not writing an essay for a 4chan anon, you are being obtuse if you are denying the role that people like Marcuse had on the 60s counter culture.
The connection is that speech codes are argued for using the criticisms of liberal democracy that the Critical theorist provided.
>>7463946
>Can't really blame someone
You damn well can blame them. To these people, they've supposedly committed the very worst sins. But the sin of lying is too much, they won't suspect it? I may be mistaken, but last I've heard , these groups deny all of the American government's claims to moral superiority.
>>7463986
Here's your (you)
>>7463988
1) Marcuse wasn't embraced at large by the new left until the 70's
2) Showing that Marcuse had some effect on the counter culture still does not account for your claims that the frankfurt school or any of it members influenced identity politics to any significant degree. the new left had nothing to do with identity politics, which only really caught on in the 80's.
If you would actually just read like a single essay by any one of those guys you'd realize how stupid your assertion is.
Also, genuine, non-rhetorical question: where have people argued "speech codes" into law (or attempted to)? My understanding is that universities had them in classrooms, which obviously doesn't violate free speech laws.
Anyways, Marcuse's critique is correct, and again it shows nothing but the most superficial relationship between the two camps if they both take the Marxist inclination towards speech, especially when the reason for wanting those speech codes in the first place has nothing to do with the frankfurters.
>>7463938
that is not the argument dumbass. The argument is that Star Wars or nerd culture are negligible causes of the infantilization culture. Pop culture exist in the vacuum that is created when you convince a generation of 'true artist' to produce shit art in order to pierce the veil of bourgeoisie consciousness. Brechtian theatre, pomo fiction, and art house films are mostly trash that are widely disliked for good reasons. That convincing people to be critical using ideology instead knowledge or expertise is a process infantilization.
>>7461981
I think he overestimates the effect of genre cinema on the population. The masses have always been and will always be stupid and tasteless.
>>7464059
Again, if you had actually read The Culture Industry you would find that Adorno generally agrees with you, but you didn't so you'll continue to use him and the other Frankfurt School writers as bogeymen, which is completely counterproductive because if any modern reactionary was worth his salt and actually read half the shit he pretends to have read he would realize Adorno was the reactionary of his time.
Another great example of parroting shit from books you haven't read is the use of the term "cultural marxism" by reactionaries. The term is nonsensical. Culture was included in Marx's critique so to put "cultural" in front of "Marxism" and pretend like it's something new is a great way to convince people who have read Marx that you haven't.
Seriously, actually pick up The Culture Industry and read it. I am literally a reactionary and it grinds my fucking gears when I hear people on alt-right blogs use the phrase "cultural marxism", or shit-talk Adorno without having read him. 99% of people just parrot things they heard other people say and it's infuriating.
>>7464051
>1) Marcuse wasn't embraced at large by the new left until the 70's
lol
>2) Showing that Marcuse had some effect on the counter culture still does not account for your claims that the frankfurt school or any of it members influenced identity politics to any significant degree. the new left had nothing to do with identity politics, which only really caught on in the 80's.
Angela Davis studied under Marcuse. Identity politics is most certainly a product of the new left.
>Also, genuine, non-rhetorical question: where have people argued "speech codes" into law (or attempted to)? My understanding is that universities had them in classrooms, which obviously doesn't violate free speech laws.
My point was that these codes infantilize the student body. Why should universities be in acting speech codes? Speech codes are hindrance to flow of ideas that intellectual debate thrives on.
>>7463736
all these 'irresponsible criminals' are still minorities. wtf are you so worried about?
furthermore you're only talking about reactionaries who only work at replicating/mirroring the forces that have 'oppressed' them ie. censorship. there are always going to be irresponsible people misconstruing/manipulating radical thought. you can't just censor critical theory because you'll be as bad as the reactionists.
i will agree with you though that the hippies and their current descendants are morons for attacking america on a social plane instead of an economic one. whatever 'revolutionary' practices they throw at the current system will only be enveloped and homogenised creating perfect scapegoats and barricading control.
>>7464104
Speech Codes are needed to protect a safe learning emnviornment. Some ideas can be a problem and infectious.
>>7464101
never used the term cultural marxism.
Adorno was reactionary against the mainstream, he pushed for avant garde and shitted all over popular culture. Have you read Adorno, because in Minima Moralia he spends a chapter bitching about men who indulge in shaving cream, wiskey, and leather trying to convince the reader that they are being repressed by these goods. Then there is his music... All I see in his writings is a mediocre mind trying elevate himself via questionable cultural criticism.
>>7464127
shiggy idgy
