>people tend to think of "The Greeks" as one harmonious philosophical party
>Plato LOATHED Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey
>professor describes him as "the Greek Richard Dawkins"
>his attack on "the arts" was actually an attack on using Homer as a bible, like the Greeks did
Who are you quoting
>Plato LOATHED Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey
No he didn't, fuck off.
nah, he was the greek muhammad
>>7370465
The fact that you genuinely believe this is indicative that you have read very likely zero Platonic texts and are therefore wholly unqualified to participate in let alone start any kind of discussion regarding them and likely Ancient Greece in general.
>>7370498
>Ya, in the Republic he talks about how "the arts" are morally corrupting, and by that he means the Iliad and the Odyssey.
But have you read Ion or phaedrus?
>>7370507
no... senpai... -_-;
>>7370509
He shows none of the hate towards poetry and the arts that he did in the republic.
>>7370498
>"suck my dick"
>>7370509
>admits to not having read relevant texts
Kek, my point exactly. Fuck off and finish reading Plato. Ironically your recourse solely to someone else's argument and your failure to formulate and sufficiently defend your own opinions are issues which you could have identified, pitfalls you could have avoided, if you had read more Plato.
>>7370535
y-yes senpai -_-;
>>7370498
Plato considers music to be one of the most important elements in the formation of an individual.
>ITT people who think "the Greeks" were Athenians
>laughing Carian wives.bmp
>>7370555
maybe he thought music was some kind of innocent glimpse into truth while everything else was 2nd rate mimesis and should fall under censorship.
our category "art" {visual, music, literature} only exists since about 1800 and had changing meanings prior to that.
>>7370543
Ching chang?Bing bong.
>>7370597
Is that where Schopenhauer picked up that garbage?
>>7370647
Probably some of ittfw reading older philosophers and finding out Schopenhauer isn't as original as I thought he was
>>7370465
>>Plato LOATHED Homer, the Iliad, and the Odyssey
Wrong.
>>7370498
>Ya, in the Republic he talks about how "the arts" are morally corrupting, and by that he means the Iliad and the Odyssey.
No he doesn't, or at least he doesn't say that unqualifiedly. The critique of poetry in books 2 and 3 of the Republic all have as their basis the necessity of developing an education for the guardian class of their *theoretical* city-in-speech, and the moral/ethical critique is based on the premise of the city-in-speech's being ruled strictly by Justice, and not any other virtue.
>Suck my dick Oxford agrees with me it's where I heard it
>https://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/1-platos-philosophy-art
OH PULLING OUT THE BIG GUNS.
Oxbridge studies on Plato this past century are autistically unable to make sense of the dialogue format of Plato's writings, and barely notice even on an argumentative level that the critique has its explanation in what I said above, which is a very simple observation to make.
>>7370498
Plato's exile of actors and playwrights from his republic was due to a combination of logic and a sensitivity to a particular trauma he experienced. He was certainly not impious.
In his ideal society, all citizens were to be protected from slander, therefore he did not believe in theatre as a medium due to the power it had to corrupt. This is also him personally coming to terms with Socrates' execution, which he believed was largely the fault of Aristophanes and his Clouds. He also believed that the influence tragedy held over the human conscience was dangerous; it is unhealthy for men to despair from aesthetics, in his view. This would later be refuted by Aristotle and his notions regarding katharsis. The aforementioned may also reveal some resentment toward the 30 tyrants, which we know Sophocles was a member of.
Sorry if this is confusing, I'm taking a shit.
>>7370647
only very superficial resemblence. schopenhauer praised and modified kant's aesthetics.
>>7370742
As per >>7370677, I don't think it can be said that the banishment of the poets in the *theoretical* city-in-speech is a dogma of Plato's. It surely does have to do something with logic, but it's not presented as a completely decided truth, and the worth of the notion would still have to be decided on the worth and meaning of the city-inspeech more generally throughout the Republic. Don't forget that at the end of book 9 (592b), Socrates notes that it doesn't matter that the "blueprint" they've laid out for the city-in-speech is unlikely to be put in practice, since it can function as a blueprint for the soul, so the practicality of banishing the poets and of the massive undertaking in censoring myths and developing new ones is shown at the end to be completely beside the point; the city-in-speech isn't supposed to be understood solely from the stance of practical statesmanship.
>This is also him personally coming to terms with Socrates' execution, which he believed was largely the fault of Aristophanes and his Clouds.
Well, *if* one puts any credence in the Seventh Epistle as a genuine account of Plato's, then it seems noteworthy that he never brings up either Aristophanes or the Clouds in his discussion of Socrates' execution, but rather the barbarity of Athenian political life.
Even if one does not accept the Seventh Epistle, what are we to make of Plato offering us a depiction of Socrates and Aristophanes as friends in the Symposiumm which is supposed to depict an event *after* the Clouds was performed?
And what does one make of the very apparent playfulness of Socrates in the Apology in referring to Aristophanes' play (since his claim that the older accusers are his "dangerous accusers" suggests how trivial the modern ones were, a comment at the expense of Anytus, Meletus, and the accuser no one has ever cared about)?
Mind, what does one make of that when it becomes clear by comparing those passages from the Apology with Phaedo 96a-99d that Socrates *lies* to the court about his interest in natural philosophy (which is what "investigating the things under the earth and the heavenly things" refers to in the Apology)?
>This would later be refuted by Aristotle and his notions regarding catharsis
I'm not sure about that. Aristotle barely says anything about catharsis; scholars argue about it all the time, and no one's sure if he means that it's the letting go of certain strongly felt emotions, or of the sharpening and intensifying of the same. It's still not clear to me what that has to do with the (very qualified) critique in the Republic.
>The aforementioned may also reveal some resentment toward the 30 tyrants, which we know Sophocles was a member of.
No he wasn't; he died in either 406 or 405, and the Thirty came to power in 404.
Plato's uncle and cousin, Critias and Charmides, were both involved, and Critias may have written some poetry, if you meant him instead.
Reminder that Plato constantly got BTFO by Diogenes who made fun of all his theories and exposed their flaws
I really like Aeschylus. The three plays of the Orestia are awesome.
>>7370910
Reminder that we have no first hand accounts of Diogenes and everything we know about him are just later inventions.
>>7371044
To be accurate, there's one saying which could be contemporary.
>>7371051
Which one?
>>7370896
>No he wasn't; he died in either 406 or 405, and the Thirty came to power in 404.Plato's uncle and cousin, Critias and Charmides, were both involved, and Critias may have written some poetry, if you meant him instead.
I think he just confused Sophocles the playwright with a different Sophocles.
>>7370647
>implying music being the highest, purest, most spiritual art form isn't a completely accurate statement
>>7370742
Interesting ideas anon. It seems consonant with what Plato is saying, but where specifically do you get the idea that it is unhealthy to despair of aesthetics? Are you pulling that from Republic? It does form a great counterpoint to Aristotle's Poetics.
"And now I suppose I can make plain to you what I couldn't before. Of poetry and tale-telling, one kind proceeds wholly by imitation-as you say, tragedy and comedy; another by the poet's own report-this, of course, you would find especially in dithyrambs; and still another by both-this is found in epic poetry and many other places too, if you understand me." [394b-c]
"'What will we do then?' I said. 'Shall we admit all of them into the city, or one of the unmixed, or the one who is mixed [with respect to the two styles, imitation and narrative report]?'
'If my side wins,' he said, 'it will be the unmixed imitator of the decent.'
'However, Adeimantus, the man who is mixed is pleasing; and by far the most pleasing to boys and their teachers, and to the great mob too, is the man opposed to the one you choose [i.e. the mixed man to the unmixed].'
'Yes,' he said, 'he is the most pleasing.'
'But,' I said, 'perhaps you would say he doesn't harmonize with our regime because there's no double man among us, nor a manifold one, since each man does one thing.'
'No, he doesn't harmonize.'
'Isn't it for this reason that it's only in such a city that we'll find the shoemaker a shoemaker, and not a pilot along with his shoemaking, and the farmer a farmer, and not a judge along with his farming, and the skilled warrior a skilled warrior, and not a moneymaker along with his warmaking, and so on with them all?'
'True,' he said.
'Now, as it seems, if a man who is able by wisdom to become every sort of thing and to imitate all things should come to our city, wishing to make a display of himself and his poems, we would fall on our knees before him as a man sacred, wonderful, and pleasing; but we would say that there is no such man among us in the city, nor is it lawful for such a man to be born there. We would send him to another city, with myrrh poured over his head and crowned with wool, while we ourselves would use a more austere and less pleasing poet and teller of tales for the sake of benefit, one who would imitate the style of the decent man and would say what he says in those models that we set down as laws at the beginning, when we undertook to educate the soldiers.'" [397d-398b]
(cont.)
>>7371314
iirc the one about the mouse and the parasites
>>7372519
So my reading of these two passages notes the following:
The discussion of the two styles, imitation and narrative report, we're to consider in the former case the way tragic and comedic poetry portrays characters with their own lines, and with no narrative comment (e.g., you don't see in Sophocles' plays any narrative on Sophocles' part connecting the speeches with "I said" or "he said" or "they said", but rather, "Creon: Blah blah fucking blah, etc."). In the latter case, we have something like Homer or Hesiod's narrative interruptions and connectives, such as "Sing, O Muse," and/or "and then Achilles said to Agamemnon etc. etc.".
Now, with the discussion of style in mind, take a look at Plato's dialogues. We notice that a number of dialogues (most of them) carry on in the way of imitation (Meno, Theaetetus, Phaedo, Phaedrus, Crito, Euthyphro, etc.), and that a number make use of narrative report (Parmenides, Republic), and that a number combine the two so that we have a mixture of characters speaking akin to tragedy and comedy AND akin to epic poetry (Parmenides, Symposium, Phaedo, REPUBLIC, REPUBLIC, REPUBLIC, HAVE YOU GUYS NOTICED THE REPUBLIC YET?!).
In the second of the two passages I quoted, in fact, we see very explicit clues suggesting that the Republic itself is of the mixed sort of narrative, what with all the "I said"s and "he said"s appearing through that passage. This means that *Plato* is himself of the mixed sort, and we shouldn't dismiss that possibility as ridiculous off the bat: look at his dialogues, and consider how many different sorts of people he imitates with his writing style: sophists, philosophers, statesmen, generals, mathematicians, slaves, women, priestesses, tyrants, etc. etc.
The Republic itself is a fascinating example that these passages demand we consider in light of the contents of what's been said. Plato writes the dialogue in imitation of a Socrates who is relating a story of a conversation he had the night before, which is presented as a narrative report, and further imitates the people present at said conversation.
Very noteworthy is the suggestion in this passage that a figure like Plato wouldn't be allowed into the city-in-speech that he's having his characters discuss. If one wants to know what Plato might think of such a city, and whether he has any misgivings about it, we have a good example right here. Of course, the reason they wouldn't allow him into the city, is *again* (as per my other posts above) because the inquiry into Justice led to a desire to see it more clearly by trying to observe it in a city, said to be like the soul of an individual writ large.
(I take it that the exclusive rule of Justice in the city is why we also see eros, spoken of so highly in the Symposium and Phaedrus, diminished in this dialogue; conversely, Justice has little place in those dialogues.)
He's not anti arts, he actually uses a lot of poetry in his texts. My ancient greek professor actually wrote a book on this, lyric quotations in Plato.
>>7372532
This one?
"When mice crept on to the table he addressed them thus, 'See now even Diogenes keeps parasites.'"
How do we know it's probably genuine?
>>7370661
Well duh.
>>7372756
It's the one most likely to be genuine because it's written by Theophrastos according to Diogenes Laertius. Of course there's the chance that Theophrastos didn't write it, or didn't know shit about Megara, or his compendium is a later rumour, but he was contemporary to Diogenes and Aristotle. Even if we did have it, it would likely have been written after Diogenes' and Aristotle's deaths, once Theophrastus assumed the head of the Peripatetic school.
Still, it's likely to be the closest thing to a contemporary source if he did indeed write it, and it's unfortunate that DL didn't cite him more if he did have access to his compendium or just that dialogue.
>>7373779
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the info!
>>7370465
All wrong. Read more before posting.
Is it wrong that I've jerked it to Greco-Roman sculpture more than once or does it make me a true patrician?
>>7374127
Well, I mean, who in this thread hasn't?
>>7374127
2bh who hasnt?
>>7374150
I feel kinda bad about it.
When I finish I usually realize that this is in all honesty too beautiful to fap to
the fuck is wrong with you people
>>7374150
I have not.
>>7370465
He hated the arts, but adored homer m8
>>7370640
beautiful
>>7374224
Get out. You have to understand the Greeks to post ITT
>>7374230
Where does he say he hates the arts?
>>7370742
>He also believed that the influence tragedy held over the human conscience was dangerous; it is unhealthy for men to despair from aesthetics, in his view.
Isn't that exactly what the po-mo sentiment is all about? And post-structuralist attack Plato most of all.
>>7374274
Ion and/or republic.
He hates it because it goes away from the truth. Also he thought catarsis was bad for mankind.
I wouldn't take anything plato said too highly though, he had a tendency to contradict himself.
>>7374298
>Isn't that exactly what the po-mo sentiment is all about?
Not really, no.
>>7370465
>people tend to think of "The Greeks" as one harmonious philosophical party
I agree that's a huge error.
>>7370465
>people tend to think of "The Greeks" as one harmonious philosophical party
Nobody thinks like that
>>7374411
>Ion and/or republic.He hates it because it goes away from the truth. Also he thought catarsis was bad for mankind.
Well, doesn't that run into certain difficulties, noting everything pointed to at >>7370677, >>7370896, >>7372519, and >>7372554?
Mind, hating poetry isn't the same as hating art more broadly (which I'm assuming is being taken in a "fine arts" sense, so the arts of the Muses specifically, and not the works and know-how of artisans). I don't recall him saying anything about catharis being bad, and as per one of the aforementioned posts, catharis isn't even that important in Aristotle's Poetics, being barely mentioned at all.
>I wouldn't take anything plato said too highly though, he had a tendency to contradict himself.
Yeah, okay.
>>7370498
No he doesn't, Socrates does. You're just assuming that Plato wrote himself into his text which shows how shit of an interpretation you have of the book.
>>7374460
He does hate the fine arts.
Mind that poetry and plays are kind of the same. But he disliked writing too, and ment it was even further away from words.
He hated epics and tragedies alike (tragedies moreso) for going away from what actually happened, or the idea of what happened.
He also references painting being a copy of a copy; a mere shell.
>catharis isn't even that important in Aristotle's Poetics, being barely mentioned at all.
Except this is what he says makes or breaks the tragedy, and that it is healthy for the soul.
>>7374510
Rofl
>>7374535
>He does hate the fine arts.
You say that, but you haven't pointed to any specific passages, but rather "Ion and Republic" generally. I showed that that's not the case in any unqualified way in the Republic, and pointing to Ion leads me to believe that you don't really know what that dialogue's about (since the focus is on a rhapsode, and not the poets *as such*).
What do you do with Socrates' comments about how pleasing corrupt poetry can be? Or the context of how that argument is made? I didn't even quite anything from the passages pertaining to musical modes or metrical styles right after the passages about writing styles.
Aren't you even ignoring that poetry, music, etc. are allowed into the city in a more salutary form?
>But he disliked writing too, and ment it was even further away from words.
No he didn't, and the proof is trivially obvious: his huge collection of writings! I'm supposing you're relying on the Phaedrus for that claim, made rather by a written Socrates, which should rather suggest that we've encountered an occasion of Plato's characteristic irony in disagreeing with something he's written, but having written it nonetheless for philosophical purposes. Even that critique suggests what the perfected form of writing would have to be like, and there's some suggestion that Plato's dialogue format might be that perfected form.
>He hated epics and tragedies alike (tragedies moreso) for going away from what actually happened, or the idea of what happened.
Okay, so you're pointing to the later critique in book 10 of the Republic. Don't you think it's a bit weird that Plato's entire corpus is an imitation of a bunch of historical figures? That in some cases it's probable that he made stuff up outright, if our standard is historical accuracy (Parmenides, Phaedo)? What about the fact that throughout the Republic, the city is an *image* of the soul? Or that the Sun, Cave, and Divided Line passages that are supposed to explain Plato's "theory of metaphysics" are all images
>Except this is what he says makes or breaks the tragedy, and that it is healthy for the soul.
No he doesn't; he says "Tragedy, then, is an imitation of an action that is of stature and complete, with magnitude, that, by means of sweetened speech, but with each of its kinds separate in its proper parts, is of people acting and not through report, and accomplishes through pity and fear the *catharsis* (either cleansing or purifying) of experiences of this sort."
That's literally all he says about catharsis in the poetics, and it's the only time he uses the word at all.
https://leostrausscenter.uchicago.edu/course/republic
>>7374127
I always start with the greeks, but I finish with hentai
>>7375801
I finish with hentai alright
>>7375801
>>7375815
Greek guy, who studies Philosophy, here.
I'll be short of words.
Plato didn't loathe Homer.
Plato was often using homeric passages, in order to explain his philosophical system.
Many physiologists/philosophers, from 7th to 5th BC, tried to prove that mythical-poetic knowledge was outdated, untrue and, therefore, not of any social use.
You have to explain what you mean by saying "arts" - every craftmanship, back then, was considered as an art.
>>7376330
>Plato was often using homeric passages, in order to explain his philosophical system.
This. There's a good article by Seth Benardete on JSTOR on the subject of Plato's use of Homeric quotations, and his sometimes sly way of misquoting him for a purpose:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4181724
>You have to explain what you mean by saying "arts" - every craftmanship, back then, was considered as an art.
Yeah, the usual term translated as "art" is "techne," which usually has the connotations of the "know-how" that artisans have. Poetry is sometimes called an art, but it's usually called "mousike," the arts of the Muses; "music" in a broad sense.
The opening of the Phaedo has an interesting passage wherein Socrates discusses the poetic verses he's been making (60c-61c):
"Upon this Cebes said: I am very glad indeed, Socrates, that you mentioned the name of Aesop. For that reminds me of a question which has been asked by others, and was asked of me only the day before yesterday by Evenus the poet, and as he will be sure to ask again, you may as well tell me what I should say to him, if you would like him to have an answer. He wanted to know why you who never before wrote a line of poetry, now that you are in prison are putting Aesop into verse, and also composing that hymn in honor of Apollo.
Tell him, Cebes, he replied, that I had no idea of rivalling him or his poems; which is the truth, for I knew that I could not do that. But I wanted to see whether I could purge away a scruple which I felt about certain dreams. In the course of my life I have often had intimations in dreams "that I should make music." The same dream came to me sometimes in one form, and sometimes in another, but always saying the same or nearly the same words: Make and cultivate music, said the dream. And hitherto I had imagined that this was only intended to exhort and encourage me in the study of philosophy, which has always been the pursuit of my life, and is the noblest and best of music. The dream was bidding me to do what I was already doing, in the same way that the competitor in a race is bidden by the spectators to run when he is already running. But I was not certain of this, as the dream might have meant music in the popular sense of the word, and being under sentence of death, and the festival giving me a respite, I thought that I should be safer if I satisfied the scruple, and, in obedience to the dream, composed a few verses before I departed. And first I made a hymn in honor of the god of the festival, and then considering that a poet, if he is really to be a poet or maker, should not only put words together but make stories, and as I have no invention, I took some fables of esop, which I had ready at hand and knew, and turned them into verse. Tell Evenus this, and bid him be of good cheer; that I would have him come after me if he be a wise man, and not tarry; and that to-day I am likely to be going, for the Athenians say that I must."
>>7370523
Plato doesn't fkn hate the Arts. He hates how the Gods are depicted as less than all arete and shit. In Plato's logic the people strive to become as the Gods since they are the pinnacle of arete or whatever. Yet the Gods are depicted as immoral decadent beings in Homers work that aren't as areteish as they should be.
>>7376515
Basically. The moral/political critique of the poets occurs in a set of passages concerned with what the education *of the Guardian class* should be. If the desire from the outset is to raise the city in order to see Justice writ large, then, well, yeah, *of course* you don't teach the military class stories about the gods fucking each other over. That sets a shitty precedent when the primary concern is Justice.
1/4
>>7376813
2/4
>>7376827
3/4
>>7376835
4/4
>>7374510
Even Socrates doesn't really. The Republic is not to be taken literally.
>>7376978
It's surprising that some people (and scholars are included in this) emphasize taking Plato's writings at their word. Their interpretations, supposedly "literal", end up not being literal enough, ignoring entire passages that don't support their "Plato's fascist utopia" understanding.
>>7370477
no actually he was the greek snowden
