I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and most dull books I've ever read. Joyce touches on some interesting topics, but boy is he a slow writer. You sometimes have to sift through 50-60 pages of nothing to get to something interesting, but I was glad that I read it to the end. What do you think /lit/?
>>7435169
only fucking good part of that book was
The personality of the artist, at first a cry or a cadence or a mood and then a fluid and lambent narrative, finally refines itself out of existence, impersonalizes itself, so to speak. The esthetic image in the dramatic form is life purified in and reprojected from the human imagination. The mystery of esthetic like that of material creation is accomplished. The artist, like the God of the creation, remains within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.
>>7435169
I found it boring at first, it became interest from the second chapter.
I think it's a failure because the author fails to fully reveal the inner life of the protagonist to the reader. This is because of the autobiographical form of the novel coupled with the fact that his life is unremarkable. The only interesting event is his flirtation with the Church.
In good art there is a correspondence between the outer and the inner, e.g. in ancient Graeco-Roman art the descent of a man into Hades serves as an outward sign that can signify an inward event (despair, depression, inner-turmoil, etc.) Even in modern art this correspondence can take place between the event of the plot and the inner life of the characters. This is what T. S. Eliot called an "objective correlative", i.e. something objective that correlates with the subjective life of the character - the object gives the reader something to draw his attention to which unveils the inner workings of the character's mind. Otherwise the character's subjectivity will remain forever sealed-off. Joyce tries to artificially unveil this subjectivity through his moments of "epiphany" in the novel, but this is artificial and unsatisfying. It doesn't work. We as readers can't experience this tide of raw emotion that Stephen feels without some "objective correlative" to make it present to us. Imagine if Keats tried to write a poem about antique beauty without reference to a Grecian urn or any concrete object.
>>7435187
> The artist, like the God of the creation, remains within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.
This guy should have studied Aquinas for longer lol
>>7435169
Only part I didn't like was the ridiculously long sermon.
>inb4 Christfags call it the best part
>>7435293
>I think it's a failure because the author fails to fully reveal the inner life of the protagonist to the reader.
That's just wrong. I intimately felt Stephen's tide of raw emotion at his epiphany. How is the struggle of Dedalus to free himself, as an artist, from the stultifying influence of his upbringing unremarkable?
>>7435304
i should have or stephen?
>>7435320
Stephen (probably Joyce himself)
>>7435319
It's a romantic trope that wasn't carried off very well. It's like a failed romantic poem on this lust for "freedom". It is a fit subject for a romantic poem, I'm just saying that Joyce didn't execute it all that well. I don't think the image of a girl on a beach with emerald sea-weed on the bottom of her leg is a powerful enough image to convey the emotion.
Notice how most of the book he is romantically meditating on a girl, and at the end he actually speaks to her and immediately his romantic fantasies evaporate. This is because his romantic delusions have shifted from the girl to the idea of a European escape from Ireland. Presumably this romantic dream will evaporate when he realises that Europe isn't the promised land anymore than the girl was his eternal soul-mate.
>>7435368
cont.
I read a short story by Joyce called A Little Cloud where a smooth-talking, suave, romantic man returns from Europe to brag about Parisian decadence to the poor provincial Irish man who is meek and married. The Irish man is made to feel emasculated and it all ends with him upsetting his baby while trying to emulate Byron or something, and his wife comes in and humiliates him.
I think this says something about Joyce's life. I don't know whether he identified with the Irish-turned-European-libertine or the meek man who never grew out of Ireland, probably both. Probably he was terrified of being a meek and regular Irishman and wanted to be another Byron sailing around everywhere, going around on romantic adventures, being immoral.
imo this is sad and pathetic and I think the best Irish poets all are Irish nationalists, not traitors.
The difference between classicism and romanticism is that classicists look for emotions to fit their object, whereas romanticists look for objects to fit their emotion. Objective focus vs. Subjective focus.
Im actually on page sixty of this right now. Does it get better because despite the gorgeous writing it is boring as shit and kind of want to put it down.
Reminder that there's a bathing scene that's perfect masturbatory material
>>7435169
>>7435187
>>7435293
>>7436435
stick to hitchhiker's guide
>>7435318
>Not having the fear of God put into you by that sermon
>>7435404
I also read that story and if I were to guess I would say Joyce say himself as the meek Irishman whereas he desired to be the Cosmopolitan ex pat
>>7436677
boy, who knew hell's bound to be that hellish
yeah, i found it to be a bit of a "feeble and garrulous book" if you catch my drift
I really cannot tell whether Stephen is identifiable, he clearly is not any kind of hero and he seems to be overcome by far too little
I completely missed the point of the last chapter, was 5/5 until then.
>>7441802
Stephen is a hero though
The book was literally called "Stephen Hero"
>>7441855
Reccing Stephen Hero, gave me a big insight on how Joyce thinked during his early years
