Is it possible to kill off LGBT characters without perpetuating the "Bury your gays" trope?
Yeah.
But why write terrible lgbt characters anyway?
>>6516973
What constitutes a "terrible" lgbt character?
I generally write complex characters as a rule, I want them to be as "human" as possible. Does simplicity make a "terrible" lgbt character?
>>6516933
Not until you straight filth stop killing gays in real life.
>>6516933
>gay characters just aren't allowed happy endings.
Yes. Kill off a gay character and let the person they're in a relationship with be able to learn to accept their death and find happiness without them. Or kill off both straight and gay characters, simple as that.
>>6517004
The thread is already over. The answer is no.
>>6516992
>straight
Think you meant Muslim.
>>6517009
I mean what I said. I'm not like you and go around saying the opposite of what I'm thinking.
>>6517008
The thread is still open. It's not over yet. Besides, the answer is yes.
>>6517017
Still wrong like always.
>>6517014
It's only Muslims that are killing gay people in real life nowadays and they don't even have to be straight
dumbass
>>6516933
Wait she was gay?
>>6517014
>implying there are non Muslim groups that go around killing gays right now
Who cares? Just write a good story and ignore SJW's.
>>6517009
>>6517022
Yeah, those Slavic Christians in Eastern Europe beating gays to death sure are Muslim...
>>6517037
>slav in eastern europe
>no one beat me to death yet
>or at all
There are some fucked up shit going on occasionally. But it's pretty rare, and I have yet to hear that anyone died.
>>6517025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXhNfXwTOqU
>>6517038
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuryYourGays
>>6517035
>Is no representation done by heterosexuals preferable to heterosexuals implying that all homosexuals should be murdered?
Gee, I don't know. I suppose if I had a choice between the bible not existing, and it existing, yes, I would probably prefer that it didn't exist. If I don't care for that hateful fiction existing, why would I care for yours?
>>6517059
Why does that have to be the implication? Nothing exists in a vacuum, yes; but if it's a story where death is just as common as life...
Say it's a post-apocalyptic war story (complicated) most everyone's dying because, you know, war and the apocalypse. As in straight people too (mostly straight people).
>>6517054
>a touching scene ruined by music
When did they make another game or is that a dlc
>>6517063
Yeah, in my humble cis, straight Black 19 y/o opinion; it was more a problem back in the 90's. Now I feel like it's less "bury the gays" and more "This characters gonna die because death is an option in this story."
All that being said, I feel like taking other people's opinions into account can only make me a better writer, and hopeully a better person. Because again, I'm not lgbt, so my opinion should and does matter less on these issues.
>>6517059
The morals from the bible is basically the only reason people tolerate gay people in the modern era. Wishing for it not to exist show how hateful you are towards who basically pretty decent people.
>>6517079
see
>>6517004
The trope is about how gay relationships always end especially tragic compared to straight relationships in a story. I agree that doesn't really happen in stories anymore.
>>6517089
DLC, they're definitely making a sequel though. Not coming out or even gonna be announced any time soon though.
>>6517101
There are no morals in the bible. If there were, straight people wouldn't be as worthless as they are.
>>6517101
>The morals from the bible is basically the only reason people tolerate gay people in the modern era. Wishing for it not to exist show how hateful you are towards who basically pretty decent people.
You and your imaginary dead Jew in the sky can fuck right off.
>>6517109
>There are no morals in the bible.
You kids say the darndest things.
>>6517109
There are morals in the bible, and just the morals of the Qaran and Hadith; they're explicitly anti-gay.
>>6517111
I forgive you.
>>6517118
Lies and evil are not morals.
>>6517118
Wrong.
They are pro-marriage and pro-family. Back then, you couldn't have gay sex without cheating on your spouse. Usually, with a prostitute.
There's nothing in the bible that explicitly says anything against two men or two women in monogamous relationship is sinful.
Even Catholics only think gay sex is sinful for the same reason that masturbation is but there's nothing wrong with a healthy relationship.
>>6517120
If religion makes your life better, good for you. I'm genuinely happy for you. But I have no patience for people who shill their religious beliefs, keep it to yourself.
>>6517135
Fuck what straight people think. Fuck what they've ever thought. When it comes to anything.
>>6517152
Morality is not subjective.
>>6516990
>Does simplicity make a "terrible" lgbt character?
No, just characters being lgbt for the sake of characters being lgbt makes terrible lgbt characters.
I like how a post about writing lgbt characters has turned into religious debate...why is it so hard for religious people to keep their shit to themselves?
>>6517101
>The morals from the bible is basically the only reason people tolerate gay people in the modern era.
That'd be true, if it weren't completely wrong, which it is.
>>6517201
OK, thank you. This is actually productive and helpful.
I don't think I could write a token character of any kind, it's just not how I write.
>>6517214
You're one lie closer to convincing me that morality is subjective. Only ∞ more to go now.
>>6517201
Except that's how it works in real life you worthless fuck. Most lgbt people may more or less resemble each other, but there's still plenty of lgbt people in all walks of life who are lgbt just because they are.
>>6517232
>defending token minority characters
get out.
>>6517240
You get out you worthless heterosexual infection.
>>6517242
>defending being used as some sort of circus animal for the entertainment of breeder scum
and you call me a heterosexual infection?
hahaha oh wow
Guys I want a gay Disney movie
And a gay Marvel movie
>>6517256
What makes you think I would ever give a shit about breeders' entertainment? I just want gay characters so I can watch something besides straight people pretending they're other straight people.
>>6517270
Does the fact that they are gay matter to you more than the quality of the character or the story?
>>6517289
Does my hatred of straight people completely distract me from whatever quality of character or story means?
>>6517270
Then fucking watch entertainment by gays for gays, and not breeder produced filth who not only write terrible gay characters but only have them for the sake of their progressive agenda.
Weekend is pretty good imo
>The problem is that no one's gonna come and see it, because it's about gay sex. So the gays'll only come because they want a glimpse of a cock, and they'll be disappointed. The straights won't come because, well, it's got nothing to do with their world. They'll go and see pictures of refugees or murder or rape. But gay sex? Fuck off.
>>6517338
None of those words mattered.
>>6516933
Sorry this thread is a shitspectical
I just watches Season 1 of Looking, I'd reccomend watching it as a reference. The most accurate and human representation of gay people I've ever seen.
As far as killing off the gay character, it depends on what extent the character defines by sexuality, how often characters die in the plot, and how much the sexuality matters. Game of Thrones killed off both its characters, but the first one at least had nothing to do with him being gay and everything to do with him wanting the iron throne. The second one... Ugh spoiler alert technically he and his whole family die because of it but the story doesn't play up that technicality. They let extreme brutality reach the character at the hands of a religious zealot, but it doesn't whine about mah oppression, it's just another example of brutality o.k. the show. And a rather tame one in comparison.
>>6517421
Duly noted, thank you.
>>6516933
I have a LGBT character in my story and she dies horribly. Killed by her supposed lover. I think making a character LGBT can be very useful for making that character that is "larger than life" in a way more relatable and human. Especially if you kill them off tragically. Because the reader will think that they should support that characters sexuality and choices not because it's a theme of the story but because that's how society has taught us to think. So if something bad happens to that character and it's not even related to the fact they are LGBT the reader will still think of it as being related to it. So if you're gonna make a character LGBT make sure you're comfortable with your readers seeing that as the BIG characteristic of that character
>>6517484
Be comfortable with it... But I wouldn't say you have to adapt too much to it. Be aware of how your representation could play on or challenge expectations, not just because its "good" to do so but because challenging expectations can make a lot of interest. It adds dissonance between reader expectations and what's actually there for them, which gives room to think about the character.
For example, having a lesbian character be a femme fatale who brutally murders her partner certainly defies expectations of gay people being pure as snow victims. It's at least more interesting than a male character brutally murdering his wife, though I would be careful to fully realize that characters psychopathy so that they feel like a character and not a talking point. If a character like that could come out of a Hitchcock film, you've done a beautiful thing.
>>6517558
Yeah I don't think it's gonna be much of a surprise that she kills her because at that point in the story she's the main antagonist and is bat shit crazy. I kinda envisioned the whole lesbian relationship thing has the antagonists last bit of humanity before she finally snuffs that flame by killing her partner and fully becoming evil in the eyes of the reader. If that's not bad enough it's implied later on that she never really loved her, she just used her for her own ends. Which I hope will really drive the nail into the coffin.
>>6517627
>muh evil homosexuals meme
Guys why does Piscatella have to be so mean D:
>>6517637
Great my story is gonna be meme tier. I hope that means /lit/ will like it.
>>6517558
How do you (or anyone who feels like giving their opinion on this) feel about characters like Izana Shinaose from Knights of Sidonia?
They are what is classified in the story as "Third gender".
They were genetically engineered (as opposed to being cloned, which also exists in this story) from a women, But were created as neither male or female, It's expected that hermaphrodites will eventually choose to be one gender or the other, and Izana does and becomes female.
*woman
>>6517663
I watched a bit of that show, seemed like a good series but I dropped it for a bit. So I'm judging based on a short bit of episodes.
From what I remember, the concept was good and very believable in its context, but before her descision she always felt like a girl, tbqh. I like her, I like her character, but she always took the passive support route to the MC, whcih made her seem feminine to me and not really exploring the boundries of gender on a subtext level. I'm not dissing the show and it is a good concept but they could have had a more subtle play on that than I think they ended up with. Part of it (if I remember correctly) if that we don't see that character interact much with people other than the mc. Maybe an example of that subtext would be her hanging out with men in some scenes and hanging out with women in others...
Anyway, the point is that if there was a statement behind that concept, it was somewhat lost by the character seeming female before she even became fully female.
Again, I'll probs need to rewatch it.
>>6517753
In b4 someone says female=/=passive. I know full well that that's the cultural stereotype not some inherent truth about women. It's a trope a lot of anime uses, and imo if they wanted to get the most out of a character who is neither male or female they could have done a better job by making the line between the two a bit more blurred. Instead she just seemed female that whole time.
>>6517753
I'm writing a story with a similar concept in it, I agree that while it was interesting in the show, it felt sort of half assed. I don't think anyone ever thought Izana would end up being a man, because she was very feminine before she was a "she".
>>6517804
Exactly.
You don't need to put too much reader attention on it, but thinking intently at what a nonbinary character would do would help.
One thought exercise could be like: "If I couldn't tell a character's gender by the name, what are some of the other factors that would clue me into one gender or the other?"
Hanging out with bros, being reckless, well defined social hiarchy, being competitive are all give aways to manhood. Talking with a close knit group of friends, being considerate or introverted, thibking things through are all stereotypically women.
I'd look this up for you if I wasn't at work, but you might want to look at a video I saw on youtube about third genders and other variations. It was made by Taboo I think. There's a spiritual leader who is both male and female, and to me that seems like one interesting route to take. Instead of trying to blow up and deny the character all gender norms (which would be very hard to write I'd think) youd have a character that embodies both gender stereotypes depending on the situation. It would be a very dynamic character that understands gender norms, because they are surrounded by the two other genders, but doesn't adhere to one or the other in any great quantity.
There are certainly other ways you could do that, this is just what sprung out to me at first.
>>6516933
Yeah if you're world is the kinda world where everyone is just dying all the time so it doesn't stand out as burying the gays specifically.
For example Spartacus. Everyone fucking dies. It's a given even if you never watched much of the show just based on the history. So no one is surprised gay dudes die. In fact everyone is shocked the gay couple lives.
Also if you have the main main character be gay. Usually the bury the gay thing happens because gay characters are only ever side characters. Writer needs someone to die to further the hero's motivation, gives no fuck if it's the gay one. But then if you're main character is gay they prob aren't gonna die.
Its not like religious people are the only ones who don't believe in the ultra-individualistic liberal philosophy. There are plenty of atheists who don't believe in free will and shit. In the Western world these days religious types are just the most common communal oriented people for edgy young libertarians to rebel against. If we were in the USSR they'd all be anti-communists.
>>6518351
Oh also just a story full of homos. Lesbian and gay guy living together. Their social circle is generally full of homos. Everyone they date, obviously homo. They mainly hang around some cheers like gay bar. Someone dies it's not bury their gay, it's just someone dying.
Like oitnb. Black lesbian girl died. People are pissy about it cause they liked her but few are calling it bury-your-gays since there's so many other lesbians on the cast. Some are arguing less that but more "gay couples can never be happy" which is a thing. Especially in lesbian stuff. It's a very old trope that there will be a full lesbian or full gay guy dating a bislut or bicurious girl/guy. The full lesbian/guy will die leaving the bi alone and the moral used to be avoid homos before you fully become one, they are bound to suffer and leave you. Go make babies now.
But in oitnb it was just them building up these cute lesbians so that the death would hurt the viewer and emotionally justify the inmates actions to take over.
>>6518388
Reminds me of The 100, a show who's main character is Bi, and who's most recent romantic relationship was with a Lesbian.
The Lesbian (who was also the warrior-leader of a coalition of warlike tribes) died (as warriors tend to do). I understand the criticism that she didn't die a warriors death; but I don't think it was simply an incarnation of the "bury your gays" trope.
>>6518678
I like that show. I think that was more an incarnation of main-cute-girl-can't-be-in-a-happy-relationship-for-too-long
or basically deadly vagina
>>6516933
Once more time has passed and more writers have averted the trope, sure.
>>6517232
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." -Anton Chekhov
97+% of the population is heterosexual. Unless you have 100 characters and there is thus statistical justification for there being at least 3 gay people, then your character should never just be gay for the sake of being gay. It must in some way be relevant to the plot (E.G., gay guy seduces evil gay guy so other protag can get into a prison.
In fact, sexuality should never come up at all unless it is in some way relevant to the plot. You shouldn't write anything like "Steve is a straight guy" unless Steve's girlfriend dies or gets kidnapped or any of 100 other scenarios where Steve being straight is in some way important to the progression of the plot.
>>6521309
what if it's relevant to the plot that my main character has a qt bf
or what if the story is less about the plot and more about the characters themselves
>>6521327
"Sexuality should never come up at all unless it is in some way relevant to the plot"
"Can I bring up my character's sexuality if it's relevant to the plot"
WELL I DON'T KNOW, WHY DON'T YOU FUCKING GUESS!?
>>6521347
guess I'm just not getting where you draw the line or "relevant to the plot"
Like say we've got some scifi spy world. Shit's crazy. People dying. MC happens to be a homo. He gets a lil dick on the side. He's known as a player in that way. It's not any more relevant to the plot than another mc being a straight player. Does that bug you?
Or is it just the harry potter after the fact btw old guy was a homo kinda thing that bugs you?
>>6521456
The Harry Potter thing doesn't really bug me that much because it doesn't really even come up in the books, it's just Rowling's bizarre fantasy world.
If the only reason for having your character be homosexual is that he's thus known as a player, that seems a little strange. Like honestly, I'm not even sure how that would work out. Do you mean he has a wife and he cheats on her with a man? Do you mean he just fucks a lot of guys? The former is only really relevant if the wife or the cheating is in some way involved in the plot. The latter should only come up if someone he's slept with helps him out, or someone else refuses to help him because he feels he's immoral for having sex with so many men.
Otherwise, saying "My mc is a gay man who fucks a lot of guys" sounds more like some kind of bizarre lgbt sex fantasy than a plot point.
>>6521309
I don't get your chekhovs' gun point in relation to a gay character. Chekhovs' gun is about relevant objects and plot points and really just cutting fat out of writing. Not basic human characteristics. You can describe a character having brown hair and being 5'8 and not have it necessary to the plot point just like how you read a description of a beautiful landscape but it's not like that beauty relates to the plot in a major way.
You describe how a character likes men or likes women and it's less about the major plot lines and more to paint a picture of the character. It's pretty often I'll read a book and the way the mc thinks of the opposite sex, the way he values womens looks or brains or smell or whatever is described to kinda paint a picture of how that characters' personality is. It's rare any character is brought in and some kind of description isn't given because otherwise the character could just be a blank slate. Authors often prefer to color that in. Usually it's made obvious he's straight, sometimes left nothing, rare that it's gay.
>>6521493
I mean james bond like player. Saves the country. Fucks around too.
You could have a james bond that didn't fuck around so often. It's hardly ever needed for him to put his dick in so much ass to further the plot. The girls help him out enough without getting his dick and they usually die right after without him giving a fuck so his obscene heterosexuality does nothing of import. But it's fun to watch so it happens.
Same for a gay dude.
Or do you hate james bond kinda shit?
>>6521506
I understand your point, and when fleshing out a character's personality there are definitely few details that should be ignored, but I disagree with you in terms of appearance. Really, unless you're creating a dedicated mc for multiple novels, the main character should not be fleshed out, as that prevents the reader from easily self-inserting. It forces the use of empathy as the reader recognizes the character as an external entity, rather than some suit they slip into when they read the book. Beyond that though, only personality details that really become relevant to the book should be dealt with, even for the main character should they have a real personality. You don't need to hear about Dmitri's 20-year long experience hiking through Siberia after World War Two unless in some way that affects the plot, and unless a dedicated description is needed it should only be referenced, not thoroughly elaborated on.
In the same way, unless Doug being a flaming homo butt-wrecker comes into play, his being gay isn't relevant. It doesn't hugely affect his personality unless he was harassed or bullied or part of the Stonewall Riots or something and that comes into play in the book.
The reason it's made obvious that the character is straight is not because that's part of his personality, it's because the relationship that the mc has with women or a woman singular is relevant to the plot. If you've ever read The Old Man and the Sea, Santiago's sexual preference is never elaborated on because it's not relevant. This goes for most books. Unless the plot involves the character being gay, his being into men will never be brought up. Unless the plot involves the character having a wife, girlfriend, or in some way having a woman he is intimate with, his being straight will never be brought up.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the occasions when sexual preference does and doesn't play a part in a character's personality or place in the story.
>>6521526
I don't hate ANY characters, I hate bad writing. James Bond is intended to basically just be a really idealized version of an action hero. Yes, his being a player doesn't really create obstacles, but it's still relevant to the plot because it's part of his character. See, in this case he could be gay or not gay, it doesn't really matter, but if your character is intended to appeal to your average man or average woman then a gay man doesn't really make sense because there is a 97% chance that the man you are showing this to is straight, not gay.
So if you want to create James Bond for a gay man, whose purpose is to seem super awesome and badass and a hit with all the boys, then their being a player is relevant. If they're an X-files Deep Throat or Deutschland '83 kind of spy whose job is to meet people undercover in darkened alleys then their sexual preference is most definitely NOT relevant except in certain very rare scenarios which I don't really feel like going into the full list of here.
Oh, this is actually /lgbt/
I thought this was /lit/
>>6521597
Most of the best books don't rely on the mc being as blank as possible for the reader to be able to relate. It's an amateur yl trope that the mc is blank/dull to teens can mary/gary sue in.
Ok for example the book I, Claudius. I rather like it. Decent book. Good reviews overall. Historical fiction.
Throughout not only does the mc talk about women he's slept with but explicitly points out how not gay he is. And in the first book the women he's with have little effect on the overall plot of his evil grandmother and rome politics and his rise in power. He has a crush that's sad, he's forced into a marriage and gets a kid but he's indifferent to it and it ends, he goes through a couple prostitutes and they're nice to him and they run the course with little plot point except one girl gives him some good advice. And at a point again he does a paragraph of how not gay he is cause he never saw the point like other romans did.
But overall it fleshes out his character of how blase he is about sex and relationships and his views on roman elites. I'm a homo so I don't especially relate but given he's a crippled man living in an entirely different life/time/place than me I was never supposed to yet I still enjoy the story and find his points on sexuality useful to the paintings of him as a man and his place in that society, even though they're useless to the overall point.
Also side shit have you read the book Hero? It's a sort of ya coming of age gay superhero which sounds stupid but it's actually rather good writing.
>>6516933
I'm in the process of writing a novel with a lesbian protagonist, and she may very well die at the end
I haven't decided
If she dies, there will only be one or two character deaths anyway
If she doesn't, she's still fucked in the head for life
Hmm... I should be writing right now
>>6517025
>Wait she was gay?
No, it's a stupid trope made by narcissists.
here for more lgbt book recommendations
>>6517309
>>>>/tumblr/
