Can someone explain to me how everything about non-binary genders isn't just reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes? I've always understood it that sex = the genitals you have, and gender = the genitals you're comfortable having, and this minimalist definition has mostly been supported by the world at large in the effort to uncouple gender from other things (e.g. girls playing with dolls, liking to cook, guys being violent). How then, is going 'I like having short hair, wearing masculine clothes, and the color pink, so I'm intergender' not completely contrary to all of that? Why are people making all these new labels for themselves instead of going 'I like all these non-traditional things, but that's okay because my gender doesn't define who I am or restrict what I can like'?
Sorry if any part of this comes off as hostile or aggressive. I'm just really trying to understand what's going on here.
Bumping for interest
>>6437092
My understanding is that real nb people either have dysphoria that switches on and off or want to be some form of intersex
>>6437092
Namely case the main examples are twinky femboys and others using estrogen to make their bodies even more androgynous.
Gender roles have nothing to do with that. Lots of them talk about acting masculine, liking guy stuff right down to some of them keeping a bunch of knives and guns and knowin how to use them.
>>6437226
That makes sense. Isn't dysphoria inconsistent for non-binary trans people too, though? I know I've heard people talking about it being stronger or weaker at different times. I guess this would be stronger than that though, right?
>>6437412
>Gender roles have nothing to do with that. Lots of them talk about acting masculine
That's more or less what I'm getting at though
>>6437092
I guess part of it could be a response to the existing gender roles and stereotypes - they feel a disconnect to their assigned gender roles and so wind up feeling non binary. In a sense it does perpetuate gender roles, which is true of historical third genders as well.
>>6437641
I'm non-binary and my dysphoria is consistently pretty strong. It's just that while I want my female traits and features gone, I don't want male ones either. If I could be perfectly androgynous, I would.
>>6437092
desu i agree with you OP, I don't get it either. I think tumblr NBs talk like hypocrites for the reasons you stated.
for me, i just want to be androgynous, like >>6437718
i strongly dislike my masculine features, and dont feel comfortable with a male role
but i dont want to be female either, i certainly dont want to transition fully, and i also dont wish to be a cis female
im set apart from the tumblr shit because im actively trying to change my body, im going on hrt
>>6437985
this is pretty much my experience as a nb person too. It's mostly not about roles.
>>6437092
>Can someone explain to me how everything about non-binary genders isn't just reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes?
No one can. Because they do.
Otherwise they'd be more inclusive and creative, and be like a "Goth Gender" or a subcultural gender that doesn't base itself exclusively around assigning people different levels of masculinity and femininity.
As is it's completely reinforcing the status quo and gender roles.
>>6437985
what do you consider a "male role"?
>>6437092
Simple, because humans like to put things into neat little boxes, and nobody likes the lumping-in box known as "other," they want their own box.
>>6438368
Good job conflating being transgender and being nb
>>6438437
nb is transgender though
you are not your birth gender, which is the definition of trans, the opposite of cis
>>6437092
Can't explain because you've never experienced it.
This isn't me being snooty, it's genuinely true. I used to say the same thing about trans* people until I experienced dysphoria and holy shit did it change my mind.
If anything I used to be dismissive and slightly transphobic because I thought gender roles were bullshit. I still do think they're bullshit, but after my dysphoria started it made total sense to me. This will sound really corny, but it's not how you mentally perceive gender, but how you feel it.
It's easy to stand there from a logical viewpoint and deconstruct it to "Gender is a social construct so dysphoria shouldn't exist in those who don't recognize gender roles" but the fact is that when you get dysphoria it's coupled with a very uncomfortable feeling that you're not comfortable in your body.
It happened to me in my 20s with no school or college support groups; just me, at work, crying in the toilet because suddenly life just fucked me over by throwing me this kind of curveball I never expected.
Maybe it's karma, but that's all I can explain to you, OP.
>>6437092
>Can someone explain to me how everything about non-binary genders isn't just reinforcing gender roles and stereotypes?
No, because we don't care about made up tumblrisms.
>>6439328
reminder that bisexuals and transgendered people also dont exist and are just made up tumblrisms
go back to pol
>>6439314
>mentally perceive
>how you feel
These are the same things.
Also trans people can explain to others the pain we're feeling, because it is mostly universal. Why do you think X-men was so popular? people could empathise with an issue that doesn't exist because the feelings were universal, everyone has experienced discrimination, everyone has experienced sadness, everyone has experienced inadequacy.
Think about it, you're not disabled but when you see an arthouse movie of someone who's a paraplegic, you can really empathise with them.
Gender roles may be a social construct, but they are based on sexually dimorphic aspects of humanity, and if we look at it this way it makes sense that some people would like to have some aspect of themselves being typically masculine, and other aspects feminine.
But on the other hand I still believe that people can define themselves as men or women, without needless labels that take into account every different aspect of their personality.
>>6439314
so if I'm a tall masculine girl and I get constant shit for it, does that make me dysphoric/trans because I hate my body for not fitting in?
I have no want for a dick or to have a flat chest. but I want the social value those things imply, because currently I'm like a discount girl
>>6439505
of course it doesnt make you dysphoric
you said you dont want to change your features
if all you want is the social value, then that IS the tumblr trans mentality
>>6439869
but that's the point I was replying to isn't it? that person thought gender roles were bullshit until they started "feeling dysphoria" and then suddenly they made sense. doesn't that indicate a discomfort only with social roles? because you want to conform so badly, when you can't, it makes you hate your body for not fitting the mold
>>6439911
im not sure exactly what they were originally trying to convey with their post or how you are interpreting it
i personally am trying to move beyond both social roles and physical features of gender
>>6439489
No they're not the same things. If you experienced it, you would know. I'm not saying it makes sense or is scientifically quantifiable, but it's not something you can logically deduce in your head when you're experiencing it.
It's like taking LSD, you can't sit there and logically deconstruct your way out of a bad trip by telling yourself it isn't real. You know it isn't real but when you're tripping it's not possible to reason your way out.
