![the_thinker[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6RAzv1Z.jpg "the_thinker[1].jpg")
If you believe gender is a social construct and something that is more upbringing and conditioning than anything biological like most of /lgbt/, then how can you rationalize the existence of trans people? Likewise, if you believe that trans people exist, how can you believe in the blank state theory?
>>6349992
>If you believe gender is a social construct
trannies don't
just to spoil the fun of another autistic debate most research points towards gayness and transess being caused by what hormones you're exposed to in the womb which is why the more older brothers you have the more likely you are to be a gay if you're male, so you are born that way but it's also enviromental
>>6349992
Gender is part a cultural set of traditions part neurological profile of behavioral tendencies. When people say that gender is a social construct what they're really talking about is the first part.
>>6349992
yes, they are mutually exclusive.
this is a serious social liability for us which is advocated by tumblr feminists & transtrenders,
not truscum
>>6349992
Blank slate theory has been debunked many times. Only a select crowd of SJWs and ultra-conservatives still believe in blank slate. Trans and gay are brought up to be cishet and it doesn't work; it's one of many ways to disprove the theory.
Its a mental illness.
/thread
People have spontaneous tendencies, and then, from the options available to them, they choose the one they feel most at peace with.
Also some people have weaker and muddled tendencies
>>6350044
Actually it's not. The only reason dysphoria is in the DSM is to make sure the person is actually trans. Once they've transitioned they don't have any disorder.
>>6350015
gayness is caused by both hormones and lack of a father figure
I had the father figure so I guess hormone theory isn't all bunk
>>6349992
Blank slate theory is too simple. In reality biology affects social conditioning, and vise versa. It's a tangled mess.
When people say "gender is a social construct," they (sometimes) mean that our current understanding of the two sexes and their characteristics (and resulting roles) is created by humans, therefore being subject to human error.
They don't have to be. Gender is a social construct, sex is not. Even if we were all treated the same, our bodies would still be wrong.
>>6350140
Yes, but that reply doesn't sell pop evopsych books.
A man can wear a skirt and dress and be okay with it.
But, if you remove a man's penis, he'll be reasonably upset.
>>6350015
>TFW no father figure
>2 older brothers
W-w-what?
>>6350078
NOOO they're just crazy dummy degenerates!!!!!11!!~
>>6350100
>and lack of a father figure
Any evidence or just straight outta your gaping asshole?
>>6349992
Who believes in tabula rasa in 2016? Get the fuck out of here.
>>6349992
Blank slate theory is old and wrong. No one thinks biology has no effect anymore
>>6350021
This is a good answer
List of people who are wrong:
>people who think gender is 100% social
>people who think gender is 100% biological
>>6352428
Blank slate theory isn't "outmoded" and it remains the preferred explanation by a high proportion of feminists, particularly male-hating hyper-feminists.
When I realized the scale of this contradiction and posed the question to a group of feminists, one put forth a version of hard social determinism. She actually claimed that male transsexuals were effectively conditioned incorrectly during childhood (despite there being no evidence in this respect -- it also flies in the face of BST whereby social norms are enforced "against" children in a conventional direction -- why the exceptions, why aren't there more?).
Rather than undoing the conditioning and somehow realigning these erroneously socially-conditioned minds, they still favour physical alteration on a massive scale and genital mutilation. ADHD, like castrating boys in support of an eventual transition, is a sly and rather disturbing means by which to destroy normal, healthy homosexual boys. There are plenty of data demonstrating profoundly feminine behaviour in a high proportion of male homosexual boys -- not every feminine boy displays homosexuality and not every homosexual male was a feminine boy, however the correlation is extraordinarily strong. Moreoever, suspending normal development biases these eunuchs in favour of transitioning -- (a) they're groomed/conditioned as girls when castrated and (b) in the absence of masculinizing hormones, estrogen is still produced by the adrenal glands and promotes feminine behaviour and might actually encourage feminine attitudes and preferences in post-castrated, pre-estrogenized children. Both factors conspire to prejudice eunuchs against masculinizing.
>>6352479
The sexual development of a child, a boy, is not to be toyed with, it's not a pliable things that just returns to a normal state after messing with it through chemical castration.
1) Many Western jurisdictions, including and notably the UK, have instated a system whereby psychiatrists are empowered by the state to castrate boys following a diagnosis of gender identity disorder. Much like ADHD, refusal by the parents to castrate their son can lead to intervention from the state and a loss of custody -- this is analogous to refusing to subject one's son to amphetamines (Adderall or Dexedrine) and being accused of child abuse by one's school and the state. The diagnosis of GID hinges on femininity along with claims of wanting to be a female by a child. During boyhood, a great proportion of homosexuals are profoundly feminine and develop into healthy adults.
Should a child receive that which he wants? Should a child's statements and play-related behaviour be used to disturb his develop in a way that carries with it serious consequences? Is it wise to coax parents, or to make transsexualism fashionable, thus increasing rates of "identification" and "treatment"? We will witness an increase identification and rates.
2) Delaying puberty, by definition, is castration, chemical castration specifically. In castrating one's son, a parents precludes him from experiences normal develop EVER. This cannot be reversed seamlessly and hasn't been thought through. The expectation from male-hating lesbian psychiatrists (who account for a disturbing proportion who are licensed/sanctioned to deprive males of masculinity). These boys, assuming they reject the biological and psychological abuse imposed by their parents and the state (imagine being wrongly identified, castrated and then coddled as a girl when you should be acting as a normal teenage boy -- no erections, no young romance, nothing), will NEVER attain a normal male body.
>>6352479
There are hormonal processes that cause some brain sex differentiation both pre and post natally, but you shouldn't discount the power of social conditioning. Kids are treated differently based on their sex assignment right from birth, and continuously during the period when their neural pathways are most plastic. Even if the parents don't enforce gender it will be instilled by interacting outside their family.
>>6352512
I don't agree with forcing gender on kids but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have access to puberty blockers and eventually hormones if they understand the effects of puberty. Your insistence on 'normal teenage boy' is strong encouragement of gendering, and kinda sounds like fear mongering.
>>6352512
2) Expanding on point two -- what many laypeople don't realize -- and I'm an endocrinologist -- is that growth persists under conditions of chemical castration. These male will develop a distinctly feminine skeletal structure and their epithelial plates will fuse. They will resemble Klinefelter's males if and when the castrative agent is terminated.
3) In males, the adrenal glands produce estrogen. Estrogen is also produced through testosterone aromatization. Owing to adrenal-secreted estrogen, this program of castration and pubertal "suspension" is no such thing -- feminization of a mild degree will occur.
4) Infertility is a known risk of chemical castration, even when done briefly. This is PERMANENT and cannot be undone by allowing the body to produce testosterone. Moreover, suspending testosterone production during skeletal growth will result in osteoporosis, an abnormal hip-to-waist ratio and, quite possibly, real gynecomastia. The brain will remain unformed and relatively feminine -- he will not exhibit pronounced masculine personality traits. How could a boy possibly recover from chemical mutilation of this degree?
SAVE OUR GAY BOYS. Do not allow zealous psychiatrists and parents to destroy the lives of countless boys. Imagine, please imagine, the torture, the sheer terror and torture inherent to a program of chemical castration imposed on the WRONG boy. The risks are too high! We have no means of differentiating between genuine transsexuals and male homosexuals.
>>6352550
>implying feminine homosexuals would be negatively impacted by HRT
have you heard of femboys?
>>6352585
I'm referring to feminine boys who proceed to manifest homosexuality as adults. Most homosexual males, feminine or not, display pronounced feminine behaviour as children -- you've misunderstood my statement.
Can you imagine your parents manipulating your biological constitution in such a profound way? The notion of a male recovering from a mistake, such an egregious and irreversible mistake, is ludicrous. The risk of incorrectly identifying a transsexual is alarming high. This is why testosterone production shouldn't be touched until the male in question has reached a relatively degree of mental maturity (> 16)
>>6349992
Gender and gender roles are
NOT
THE
SAME
THING
Why is this such a difficult concept? You'd think this was the plot of Kingdom Hearts and not "liking pink doesn't make you a girl"
>>6352550
Your profound ignorance of the realities of treatment and diagnosis of transgender and gender non-confirming youth is disheartening. I hope that you are lying about your credentials, and not simply a source of shame for an entire profession.
>>6352597
And I'm saying that someone who is feminine and gay and wants to look like a girl should be able to get HRT.
>Can you imagine your parents manipulating your biological constitution in such a profound way?
Yes actually, at least it would be better than forcing me to conform to masculinity.
Also your assumption that parents are manipulating their children is unfounded. The whole point is to give them a choice to decide what to do with their body.
>This is why testosterone production shouldn't be touched until the male in question has reached a relatively degree of mental maturity (> 16)
AKA after testosterone has already caused most of it's effects
>>6352818
>>6352788
Of course you should be able to do so, but only once you're able to form that decision. At 18, perhaps 16 or 17 in extreme cases, any male should be permitted to manipulate his endocrine system.
However, and I don't think you're advancing this argument, permitting zealous parents, in concert with a suggestible boy and a malicious psychiatrist, to induce chemical castration and effectively disrupt a boy's endocrine system and normal sexual development is exceedingly cruel. What happens to the majority of boys who are merely homosexuals displaying pre-homosexual behaviour? What happens to normal, somewhat feminine boys? This business of "transgenderism" and gender identity disorder has become a dangerous fad. Parents actually experience a rush from signalling to other parents that they're son is now a girl -- this leads to another important point:
The boy, whilst castrated, won't develop in a "neutral" environment" -- his life as a girl will have been preordained. In deciding to castrate their son, which is a big decision, the parents and teachers will refer to him as a "she" and "she" will be called a "she" by "her" peers, most of whom will be freaks. He will experience a marginal and depressing adolescence, deprived of normal male milestones, young romance, sex and other things we take for granted. By the time the "choice is his/hers", the odds of going against the grain will be low -- he'll have been pressured, biologically (his brain will have been feminized by endogenous estrogen) and socially, to retain his artificial identity.
>>6353275
What's enormously disturbing for me, and I mean stomach-wrenching, are the endocrine, fertility and overall anatomical consequences for a male that ultimately rejects the gender his parents selected for him.
1) He will have a borderline micropenis. No amount of testosterone will reverse the stunted growth of his penis resulting from castration during the SECOND most important phase of growth in a human's life.
2) He will probably be permanently infertile. No, it's not temporary. Suppressing LH/FSH in such a manner will result in irreversible sterility.
3) His height will likely be stunted. It's not as though a castrate "stops" growing -- height increases will occur, but he will not reach his predicted height and his skeletal structure will be decided feminine. He will exhibit what's called a eunuchoid appearance -- a feminine hip-to-waist ratio, hip-to-shoulder ratio and a female-pattern of fat deposition.
Males subjected to this kind of malicious "medicine" will end their lives. When I read of 11 or 10-year-old boys, healthy boys, whose parents have opted to transform them into females, bring me to tears. I have two boys of my own -- one is unusually feminine but he's my little guy and I won't be surprised to discover he's gay -- and, having practiced endocrinology for decades, having worked to protect the integrity and normal functioning of these complex systems, watching this unfold nauseates me. That's hard to do.
>>6353318
For the sake of argument, what about the reverse: trans people who had to go through puberty and hence can't pass no matter how hard they try?
![vRDNp9M[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/2l54oMi.jpg "vRDNp9M[1].jpg")
>>6353275
The guidelines are not perfect but there needs to be a compromise to allow for trans people to get HRT.
And again, you're assuming the worst for these people who turn out to be 'feminine gay men' instead of 'trannies'.
The line between those is becoming increasingly blurry, it doesn't mean people are going to kill themselves over it.
>>6353353
I'm dubious of transsexualism as amounting to anything other than dysphoria. However, assuming for a moment that a clinical entity called "gender identity disorder" does exist, or transsexualism, the risks simply do not justify the benefits:
According to our best data, transsexuals are exceedingly rare. In contrast, homosexuals account for 1% to 5% of the adult male population. Homosexual males, as children, often exhibit profoundly feminine behaviour. Therefore, statistically, a boy who displays feminine behaviour and even says things like "Mommy, I want to be a girl!" is simply an ordinary boy who will manifest homosexuality in adolescence.
Ruining the development of these boys to help a fraction of a fraction of 1% of the population become more "passable" is insane. Decisions surrounding sexual development should not be structured to accommodate this group -- it either doesn't exist (in my opinion) or barely exists. Upon reaching 15 or 16 and being exposed to higher testosterone (or estrogen) levels, he will have a better idea as to whether he's confused or if his childhood preferences were simply a fad.
>>6353414
I'm sorry, but it isn't the job of parents, psychiatrists (who are more prone to fashion and fads than any other group of professionals -- remember lobotomies?) or the state to try to predict whether possible gays should be deprived of puberty and a normal body. I'm not sure you appreciate the wide-ranging consequences of castration during such a critical phase of development.
There should be no compromise below the age of 15 or 16. A child is in NO position to determine whether he's a transsexual. As annoying as a slight degree of masculinization might be, the broader male population should not be sacrificed for a more pleasing bone structure. That this idea is even being entertained is appalling from a medical perspective.
>>6353465
Bear in mind that at 16, very little serious masculinization has occurred -- most boys, after growing long hair, look like girls. Skeleton morphology is easier to alter within the span of 16 to 18 as compared to 18 to 20, too.
>>6353492
Unfortunately female skeletons fuse earlier, so I'm cursed with these hips bones :(
>>6353492
>>6353492
Honestly I pretty much agree with you. Parents forcing gender on their kids is bad but especially so when it's the opposite gender. I think that the regulations need to be much stricter but it seems like the tranny meme is becoming more popular.
It's hard for me to say because I'm a gay male but I also take HRT to stay feminine. I just really wish I had the opportunity to do so when I was younger.
>>6353275
Fuck you.
I have been deprived of my childhood and adolescence as a female, your option would never hive someone a MtF the FEMALE milestones of adolescence.
I spent mine isolating myself for this very reason, never had an adolescence.
Please, at least I want to see other MtF living those parts of their life in peace and not tormented by their dysphoria.
>>6353551
>>6353526
Glad to hear some sane voices! This will sound melodramatic, but this "meme" as you put it, does amount to forcing a gender identity and it's physiologically destructive. This is one of the most disturbing trends I've witnessed in 50 years, primarily because children are at the center.
"pre-t-neckbeard" -- I have large hips as a male. We're not terribly rare. Button-down shirts of a proper length and a reasonable degree of upper-body mass (muscle) should help.
>>6353571
Your option would never give to an MtF*
>>6353571
I'm sorry that you've endured difficulty, however that does not warrant disturbing the sexual development of normal children in hopes of catching a few "transsexual" individuals.
Life is a balance, and in medicine we deal with balances too -- the most balanced approach, the one that is least harmful, involves waiting until the age of 16 is reached before any intervention whatsoever (beyond voluntary measures like hair, dress, makeup) are adopted by an endocrinologist like me. Only endocrinologists should be involved in cases like yours, not family physicians, quick psychiatrists or heaven forbid you, the patient.
>>6353578
Thanks. I'm working on it.
The bones themselves probably aren't too bad but are exaggerated by my fat distribution.
