![4987013-9071872141-13516[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mqP9AGS.jpg "4987013-9071872141-13516[1].jpg")
Discuss.
>>5957872
depends
san fran - yes
iran - no
grr i have a lot of prejudice for the transpeople!
So much so that i enjoy bothering them online by pretending to be hateful of them
>>5957920
It is a privilege to be able to say that a living being is mentally ill.
>>5957920
>because I don't see how being mentally ill can be construed as a privilege.
The ___ cries in pain as he strikes you
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
>>5957929
So psychologists are the most privileged people around, then, since that's their job?
>>5957872
Gee I sure am privileged that I have to dump all of my life savings for the foreseeable on life threatening medical procedures and medication just so I don't kill myself.
>>5957872
Go to bed, Rorschach. Veidt is not gay.
>>5957940
Spotted the transtrender.
Couldn't get a diagnosis, huh? That really sucks for you, hon.
>fart
>discuss
>>5958293
If anyone is a transtrender it's you..
>Oh there's nothing wrong with being transgender, I should just pop my titty skittles and be a hot sissy slut :^)
Kill yourself lol.
>>5957872
I'm sure that's how Rorschach feels about it.
>>5957872
>Being trans
>Being privileged
Pick one. It fucking sucks, but I only really say that because half my family will never look at me or speak to me again once it becomes apparent that I'm not a guy anymore.
>>5957872
Only if you transition before puberty has the chance to fuck you up and you end up being pretty.
>>5958330
Farts are rude t b h
>>5957872
Was anyone else edgy as fuck during their trans repression stage? I remember reading The Watchmen in high school, and I was like "This is me from middle school" as I read Rorschach's parts.
>>5959278
yes.. i used to bring serial killer books to school and unironically wore the tshirts eric and dylan wore during the columbine massacre.
it was bad
>>5957876
Dude, Iran has better trans-care than san-fran. I'm serious, free SRS.
>>5959278
I am still edgy here, I started out as a demon summoner but now I still talk to imaginary friends, but I'm happier now, but I still don't watch movies and I still cut myself for a sacrifice to Tlaloc.
>>5959025
you chose to be a freak. accept the consequences
>>5959444
Looks like we've got one still in the edgy repression stage.
>>5957872
>raised as a male with privilege
>supportive parents who acomodate my identity, also privilege
>have gender dysphoria, and the privilege to treat it under a doctor's supervision
>live in San Francisco, where you have the privilege to be accepted despite breaking gender norms
Yes it's true, being a white MtF is basically the pinnacle of privilege. You get carte blanche to enter women's spaces that are normally closed off to men, you get the full privilege of growing up male, and you get safe spaces galore on the internet.
You could not be more privileged than a white MtF. But hey, everybody wants to be special, everybody wants to be a victim.
>>5959444
>you chose to be a freak
Something tells me you aren't exactly normal yourself, hypocrite. Anybody who posts on /lgbt/ is considered a freak by most of society.
I also never stated that I didn't accept the consequences of being trans, only that they are terrible. At least I have the will to be true to myself, even in the face of said consequences, unlike your sorry repressed ass.
God, fuck you guys. People who shout privilege/gender non-binary off the roofs are occasionally terrible, sure, but by and large they're decent people who try to be accomodating to other people's needs.
Most trannies don't get to "enjoy" "our" male privilege growing up and are left socially dysfunctional because of it.
>>5959525
There's a lot of sublimation going on.
What transgender people "don't enjoy" is the feeling of dysphoria.
What they do enjoy (practically speaking, not consciously) are the benefits of male privilege, tolerant parents, medical oversight, and a culture that is growing to accept them (at least in places like SF).
They are absolutely privileged, moreso than women or people of color.
I sympathize with gender critical feminists here, MtFs do not understand the daily bullshit women put up with (periods, being sexualized at age 10, giving birth, being catcalled, the threat of rape and random assailants after dark etc.)
You're right though. We're all people here. Everybody is capable of decency. We should err on the side of compassion and understanding.
Not to mention, there are many, many MtFs who suffer terribly from the stigma and taboo of prescribed gender roles.
But I see so many MtFs playing oppression olympics and cooing each other into a victim mentality on the net. It's grossly negligent of women's lived experiences.
>>5959534
What would you classify as male privilege? Because if you spend all day hating yourself and don't try to accomplish anything, it's really not as beneficial as you think. It's more like a check-list of what makes you normal that most of us don't have any drive/hope of reaching.
>Tolerant parents, medical oversight
lel
>don't get publically hassled/catcalled, oversexualized or threatened with random violence
lel x2. Oh but we choose to do this rather than kill ourselves instead so in that case we transwoman were asking for it amirite
Women have it worse, but transwomen get looked at like freaks regardless by every side of the arguments
>>5959475
>San Francisco
pls enrich this brown trans girl with your gt
>>5959592
(Though I guess the tolerant parents thing relies on how old you are)
>>5959600
More than on how old you are, your parents' ethnicities and educational and economic backgrounds.
>>5959592
Ok so it really does depend on circumstance. I'm being a shitbird on 4chan.
A transgender sex-worker in the tenderloin, who is a person of color, raised in poverty, is pretty much absent of privilege as we know it. My claims fall flat.
But take a Wachowski sibling (I know, I know, I'm sorry) as an example of what I'm talking about, the opposite end of this spectrum:
>raised with male privilege
>wealthy beyond repair
>accomplished
>has support structures medically and socially
>transitions late in life
Here we are talking about somebody with immense privilege compared to women or people of color. She can transition with the full support of medical professionals, loved ones and family, and a culture that respects her.
So I guess in the end it's highly contextual and you can't just generalize on the group.
My main point is that many outspoken MtFs online are grossly ignorant about women, their struggle, the shit they deal with. It annoys me. A woman who is a victim of rape might voice subjective discomfort with sharing a yoga retreat with a non-transitioned MtF, politely, and she'll be met with scorn and name-calling. Stuff like that.
There's also something entirely unsavvory about MtF's adopting the most superficial and eye-rollingly tasteless aspects of 'femininity' and then speaking for women.
I wish there were more opportunities to defy gender roles, and treat dysphoria, without leaving women out of the discussion, or placing transgender individuals in danger/traumatic situations.
>grow up with male privilege
>transition to female at 20 to reap all of the social benefits and privileges of being a young woman
>gonna detransition in my 30's and enjoy male privilege again (since SMV is higher for men past that age)
Who /planningformaxprivilege/ here
>>5959525
many males don't get to enjoy *your* male privilege
>>5959438
I did not know that. Brb, just booking a flight to Iran
>>5959624
I'm transgender and I was raped as a child, does that mean we can go and have a peaceful retreat? instead of this bs shit posting your spewing.
>>5959624
The rich and famous are always going to have an edge over normal people (lol). I, like any civilised human and not a reptile respect glorious capitalism so it can't be helped. It actually makes me feel really bad; media/angry gender idealists have drawn a lot more attention to gender issues which hopefully gets some people to really consider their feelings. But all sorts of things can stunt someone's transition, like shitgenes and money issues and send them back into self-destruction, so I wonder how many people are struggling right now too
But I'm poor and posting this on 4chan so I could just be projecting really hard tonight
>>5958293
in the good days of this board nobody ever had any of these weird "diagnosis" things
it was always all about self-medding, because in most countries you have to go through 7 layers of hell before you can get a prescription, like in UK you have to go full time etc etc
So is that a viable option orrrrr is it gonna kill ya. If it's actually safe(I'll accept safe-ish) over the medical gatekeeping they love doing in UK
>>5960603
It is. It's better to have blood tests, but apparently if you tell your GP you're taking hormones (I don't live in the UK), they're obligated to give you blood tests.
>>5959475
>growing up male
>a privilege
Choose one.
>>5960508
First off, I'm really sorry that happened to you. It's horrible. Nobody should have to deal with that kind of trauma. This world is cruel and unjust.
But to my points, which have been delivered inarticulately and with too much aggression (hard to be civil on 4chan, doing my best), I'm really not trying to get into oppression olympics here, which fine, I bit the bait thread.
My point is that there is a lot of privilege surrounding:
1. Being raised male, and then adopting superficial, fetishistic ideas of womanhood (makeup, cute dresses, passivity, faux-cluelessness, cutesy language) and then speaking for women without any consideration of being sexualized at age 8, or the stigma of periods, or the absurd expectations underscored in portrayals of women in the media, or lower pay rates, or being interrupted by men constantly, or being catcalled, or shoving off dick after dick at the bar, etc.
2. Adopting a female gender without actually transitioning, and expecting to be allowed into the scant few spaces reserved for women. Men just love shoving their bodies and ideas into these places. A clueless guy with autogynephilia will take no serious steps towards considering gender roles, patriarchy, feminism - won't even pick up a book on the subject - but will shove his face into spaces that aren't for him. It's annoying as shit.
Anyway. A little self-awareness, tolerance, and compassion on all sides would help everybody in the end. A lot of self-awareness gets lost on so-called MtFs online (not all, not even most in real life, but man... on the net? you get so many idiots running their mouth ignorantly, and it's loaded with privilege)
trans people are like witchers prove me wrong
>>5965140
Never played the Witcher. Please explain.
>>5957937
I have never once seen someone who was barred from criticizing trans people. Quite the opposite. A great many who do are regularly elected to high government office. People need to learn the difference between actual government censorship and the dissent of private citizens as a consequence of making broad and ignorant generalizations about minorities.
You're not a victim just because all of society doesn't automatically hate and reject trans people.
>>5965140
You're not wrong. I related to Geralt in a lot of ways throughout that series. The harrowing transformation through medicine that not all survive, the aimless fear and hatred when a mob of igorant people realize what you are, the way you're treated almost like another species entirely separate from humanity, the constant need to hide myself so I don't have to constantly defend myself from angry losers who want to prove themselves by fucking with me, the isolating struggle for employment and survival as you wander place to place, people everywhere throwing themselves at me for the novelty of sleeping with "one of those," etc.
It was an interesting game to play.
>>5965140
>>5965498
>>5965679
"I feel like a lot of MtTs haven't experienced the world correctly and instead have done so through a computer, video games, second life, porn, and such. They see themselves as an avatar. I think this can severely mess with your self perception. It seems like they haven't really interacted with women or really understand anything about womanhood. And then when they transition it's like a whole list of things they see that they imitate. That's why they always seem to look like as you say "hipster nerd girls" or like straight up 4 pounds of makeup porn star types. Like if they had actually interacted with lots of women maybe they would see that there are so many kinds of us and that womanhood isn't a costume or avatar."
>>5965860
Our perception of the 2 genders is taught to us by parents who carry on the ways of how olden day mud slingers viewed each other, and rigorously enforced by media that tries to appeal to these groups. The feeling of being an avatar only came about for me BECAUSE the norms of acceptability you need to reach in society for a transwoman is high and confusing for some people who made the mistake to transition late. What you're basically saying is trying too hard to fit in/failing invalidates them, and few cis-women seem to want to help a transwoman who struggles because we're still seen as apish predators no matter how much you try.
I'm not sure if I'm your typical tranny but it sickens me people would even question my reason for doing this to myself. If I could function as a normal person I would, but I need the peels to feel LIKE a person, and it just clicked after a while
Emotional strength comes from a man's dick and a woman's brain in western society/most nigger countries, just accept that and go what feels best for your body. Looking at you ladies with fetishistic phantom dicks. Oh and don't be a prick. Secret to godhood, even God got it wrong
>>5966197
No but really I had a transman friend who played City of Heroes with me, he was the best type of dom I could hope for (double joke if any nerds get it)
>>5959534
Wtf, since when is the ability to give birth not a privilege? Do you have any idea how awful it is to be relegated to the useless, expendable pollinator of the species? To not be able to carry your own offspring, instead having to rely on finding a third party willing to carry your offspring for 9 months? Get real. Being a male sucks ass if you want to reproduce. You can choose to have a baby or not if you're a woman, if you're a man you don't have the luxury of having a child unless you can manage to convince someone to carry it for you.
MtF's will face the same threat of rape and violence as cis women if not more so after long enough into transition. Either they pass and it's the same rate or they don't pass and they have a higher risk of violence because the number of people who'd love to bash a tranny is a lot higher than people who want to attack a cis woman.
Being sexualized can suck, but you know what sucks even more? Not being sexualized. I guarantee you most women would rather continue to be viewed as sex objects rather than ignored and left as virgins which is the fate of the average male. Men do not get an inherent sexual worth just for existing so as a result so many end up dying alone and pathetic. I'd take some creep catcalling me on occasion over being completely unwanted as a mate by anyone.
Menstruation is the only true disadvantage here but even that is a worthwhile trade-off for the privilege of never being destroyed by a male puberty and having a reproductive system that is actually functional.
>>5958268
Veidt is totally gay
>>5966373
>To not be able to carry your own offspring, instead having to rely on finding a third party willing to carry your offspring for 9 months? Get real. Being a male sucks ass if you want to reproduce. You can choose to have a baby or not if you're a woman, if you're a man you don't have the luxury of having a child unless you can manage to convince someone to carry it for you.
This is just the sort of reductionist thinking you would never hear out of a woman's mouth.
My point is that a transman can't claim womanhood knowing nothing of things like giving birth, having a uterus, or experiencing periods, and many myriad experiences.
Leaping to another gender to cope with dysphoria is backwards. Gender norms should be deconstructed and identity reformed afterwards. Claiming womanhood as a MtF is ... wrong.
>Being sexualized can suck, but you know what sucks even more? Not being sexualized. I guarantee you most women would rather continue to be viewed as sex objects rather than ignored and left as virgins which is the fate of the average male.
Again, I absolutely understand where you're coming from, and can relate to this emotional experience. I am a man. I understand these things. But your frustration is completely and utterly different from frustrations of womanhood. How then can you claim womanhood?
Sorry if I'm treating your lived experience like a thought experiment or a debate. It's just that I read, understand, and empathize with your experience as a man. It is quintessentially a man's experience reeling against his prescribed gender role.
How then can you possibly claim womanhood?
There should be a few more genders I think...
>>5966703
It kinda depends. For people like me and a few others I know, it's more about casting off manhood all together and I think the brain's logical conclusion is no male? Female. But female is the natural default anyway, until we become male in the womb.
I don't think a philosophical debate is really necessary, it always boils down to "are this person's feelings and experiences valid? No coz they were born with the wrong hardware, so they're joke people who don't need help or have good intention"
>>5966819
> it always boils down to "are this person's feelings and experiences valid? No coz they were born with the wrong hardware, so they're joke people who don't need help or have good intention"
That's really not a path I want to go down. Transwomen should be treated as women under the law, and tolerated as women culturally.
But trans activists should not be toeing the line "Trans women are women." It's disrespectful to actual women. It's also just negligent of the experience of transwomen.
"Transwomen should be treated like women" is something I can get behind. That's how we should frame the discussion.
"Trans women are women?" It's like spitting in the face of women worldwide, an underprivileged class, especially when it comes to guys like a few comments up, where male privilege and masculine fragility are on full display.
To think that somebody can claim womanhood just because they hate being rejected/unseen as sex objects. Or because they think that the choice to reproduce is a privilege for women only not men (or more accurately, not a multi-layered symbiosis of physical science, affection and love, commitment and culture)...
It feels gross. The whole transwomen-are-women narrative cracks at the seams under any scrutiny. Instead we should treat transwomen as women, but admit that it comes with layers of privilege and psychopathology.
But I bet this has all been talked to death. I think I'm so original trying to propose a more worldly approach to the issue, but I'm sure whatever I'm saying has been said more articulately a million times before me.
I wish well to anybody embarking on the transgendered path, but I'm also wary of biological males claiming womanhood, a claim that is widely accepted by progressives without much criticism.
>>5966938
So here's the funny thing. I was reading this >>5966703 post you made, thinking that you didn't understand that all we want is to be treated like women. I had this gargantuan, ranting retort all typed up and ready to go, but then you posted this >>5966938.
Ok, as an MtF, I actually agree with your statement. I fully acknowledge and understand that I was not born a woman, and therefore did not experience all that a cis woman would have in her life.
And to be honest, I think you hit the nail right on the head with your statement,
>Transwomen should be treated as women under the law, and tolerated as women culturally.
That's all I've ever asked for. Just don't call me a man, don't refer to me with male pronouns, and don't call me by my birth name.
For me, it's not about receiving any sort of privileges, it's about feeling comfortable with myself, feeling as though my body actually represents who I am as an individual, something my body, as a male, couldn't do. Beyond how I'm treated, I honestly don't care what you think of me, because unless you matter to me (are a friend or family member), your internal thoughts really aren't something I should be concerned with.
>>5966373
> useless, expendable pollinator of the species
What is it with fucking dick-bearers? You literally run the government, all popular religions have male gods and are run by males, you dominated science, industry and finance, and yet you, and I mean specifically you, you stupid anon, think men are "useless, expendable pollinators"? How many women are used as holes for sex worldwide? How many men are similarly used? Compare that to the vaulted status that men TRULY have in society, and that they literally run it. You might be a loser but most men are not. And even male losers get their own shit, female losers don't, like the whole fucking nerd cultural explosion that's happened. Holy fuck, mtfs and men are dumb as shit.
>>5959624
A non transitioning MtF does not deserve to be in female spaces.
Political correctness aside if you're not on hrt you're a man with gender dysphoria.
>>5966938
>they're not women but they should be treated as women
No. God, you gender-critical mtfs are utter fakes. MTFs should get TFs on their legal papers, should use unisex bathrooms, have zero access to women-only things, and their crimes should not be counted as ours, so on and so forth. They should not be legally or socially recognized as "female" in any way.
>>5966997
>implying that any dick-bearer who would type a message like that is even remotely close to being in the government or has a well paying job in science, industry or finance
For every woman being used as a hole for sex worldwide there's a man being used as a meat shield in a war or some awful occupation like a sewer maintenance technician that you never see women working.
You are getting mad at the dick-bearers in the under-class who are upset that as an under-class dick-bearer there is literally nothing they have that gives them value, not even their bodies.
>>5966978
I'm with you there. Everything you wrote.
I'm glad to not be lambasted and called a TERF derisively. We (humans) can all be the best we can be, without fucking it up for each other.
I want to read more on the subject and develop a position and words to articulate it that are more tolerant and sensitive, but I'm just now finding ways to talk about this stuff. Being on 4chan doesn't help.
>>5966998
I tend to agree with this. I've seen drag queens run up a women's bathroom in SF (NOT saying drag queens are trans here) and make the girls completely uncomfortable. I've seen non-transitioning, non-hormoned, non-presenting MtFs demanding treatment as women on the net ("It's a girl's penis!").
I'm trying to sort this stuff out, and reconcile transgender rights with feminism as I understand it.
I think it deserves thought, wariness, compassion, and due-dilligence.
>>5967013
I'm so fucking glad I don't have a cunt, because I'm pretty sure yours is bleeding profusely right now :^) get fuckin' mad, scrub
>>5967013
I'm a straight man, but yeah if I a woman said what you just posted, I would acquiesce to her position in a heartbeat - she has way more at stake here than I do.
This is something I think many MtFs refuse to do. And although your position is hardlined, I respect it (although I tend more toward the tolerant side of the legal/cultural treatment stuff, as seen in my post), assuming you are a woman.
I'm trying to keep an open mind.
I know this is a bait thread, but I'm hopeful to see feminism and transgender activism come to terms somehow. Currently, I see two polar sides of a spectrum that have trouble reconciling positions.
And that doesn't even consider the widespread nonacceptance of breaking gender norms, worldwide, regardless of birth-sex.
>>5967037
The laws should require the trans woman being on at the very least anti-androgens for 6 months minimum.
Testosterone causes a lot of the problems women have with men, it makes you more likely to behave in certain ways, it's not just a society thing, it's a biological thing.
Plus most MtF on hrt in my experience were previously weak nerds and on top of that have hrt atrophied muscles, and ED to some degree, hardly a rape scare.
>>5967059
>>5967013
As long as unisex facilities are rarer than unicorns, then no, transsexuals shouldn't be considered some "third gender." Anyone who says trans should just use the unisex bathroom has never been trans trying to find a place to pee because a lot of us actually prefer unisex bathrooms but they are so hard to find. There is ONE on my entire college campus and it's a single-person facility. So you expect us to spend 10 minutes walking over to the other side of campus, then if it's occupied have to wait for it to be empty, spend another 10 minutes walking back to the other side of the campus, and be thoroughly late for our classes? What are we supposed to do in the 99% of public places that only have binary gendered facilities?
You're just pissed off that we don't want to be treated like second-class citizens.
>>5966997
Legit.
>>5967028
Ignorant. Comparing what she is talking about (sex trafficking, day-to-day objectification, worldwide regressive sexism in non-first-world-countries) cannot be compared to the rare soldier who suffers battle, or the guy who works a garbage drag. This is a really dumb equivalency that doesn't even deserve a response.
>for an under-class dick-bearer there is literally nothing they have that gives them value, not even their bodies.
This is just false. It's much easier to bootstrap your life, once you beat depression, trauma, other environmental/neurochemical pathological baggage, when you're a man.
I'll stop now. I feel I've blown up this thread, and written out some thoughts that have been brewing lately.
Trans exclusionary radical feminism doesn't make me mad, it seems legit.
Likewise, the simple request from those who suffer gender dysphoria to be treated as women under the law and culturally seems legit.
"Transwomen are women" does not seem legit.
annnnd I'll stop now.
>>5967028
>meat shield
And do they go and rape the women there? Yes. Do they come home and rape women at home? Yes. Do they commit crimes at higher rates when they do come home? Yes. Do they get greater payment and prestige, and less stigma than whores? Yes.
>women are never sewer maintenance
Maintenance is good money compared to what many women work in comparative blue collar jobs. Women make up the majority of minimum wage workers.
>You are getting mad at the dick-bearers in the under-class who are upset that as an under-class dick-bearer there is literally nothing they have that gives them value, not even their bodies.
No, you are a sad, pathetic weasel. You benefit from the exploitation of women worldwide and you literally see us as baby incubators. You're jealous because you are apparently a fucking stupid tranny, who refuses to see that men are not pollinators as a class in any way shape or form, simply because you have low self-esteem. Go fuck yourself.
>>5967045
>a woman is mad
>lmao she's on her period, the cunt
Take note, >>5967028 there is nothing I know of that I can use as insult against dick-bearers and THEIR biological processes, but they have the ready-made "lol period" jokes. My body being used against me is the result of centuries of women being othered and treated as inferior to people with dicks - whether it's hysteria, moving womb, or ~lol period~.
Oh, and not surprised trannies still want to cling to "cis" for real women and not accept an entirely different strategy - where they are never women, ever - and they then use misogyny to announce their displeasure.
>>5967102
are you a real person? or just a meme spewing bot?
your view of the world is quite pathetic. you'd be this miserable no matter what situations you were in because that's just who you are.
>>5967102
Come up with something ms. lazy. Make fun of guy's random boners or something, or how they panic and clench their ass when faced with any aggression.
You know, project your distaste for half the bodies of the Human population harder to prove why you're only entitled to human decency
>>5967115
And you're simply wrong about a lot of the things you think. But you can, of course, point out where I'm wrong.
>>5967059
>straight man
Yeah, the thing is? There are transfeminists who consider pretty much every man a closeted mtf. Especially straight men, because it's a very queer transfeminist belief, and they want to protect closeted transbian "eggs." And then there are the gender-critical MTFs who preach online to other mtfs not to call themselves women, but then live entirely stealth or call themselves transwomen. It's beyond hypocritical and just plain annoying. So I understand this is how you identify, but I remain suspicious. In three years you could be a mtf, go through your gender-critical phase, and then come out a transbian feminist who complains about feminism "problematizing maab sexual attraction." On this topic, all men are mtfs.
>I'm hopeful to see feminism and transgender activism come to terms somehow
Kind of doubt it.
>>5967102
Damn it, I'm feeling verbose tonight... One more response...
I wholeheartedly empathize with your position.
There's got to be a way to reconcile these two things:
1. Biological women must be given claim womanhood over MtFs in respect for longstanding mistreatment of the 'fairer sex' worldwide, historically, and as a matter of core-identity and peace-of-mind.
2. MtFs should be able to live their lives without being totally fucking miserable, shunned, outcast, and judged by society.
Saying transwomen are women is not the right approach.
Saying transwomen should not be treated (culturally, and to an extent legally) as women when they present as women.
I think there's a middle ground here, but it's many years off. And god damn, mainstream normative values would defy both points #1 and #2.
There's a lot of work to be done. A lot of discourse to sort out. But I have hope for reconciliation.
Ok. No more posts from me. I'm a straight guy comfortable with my gender and sexuality. I'm a feminist and so I want to find a position accommodating #1 and #2. But it's time to shut up, read books, watch lectures, listen to lived-experiences from both sides, and refine my positions so they adhere to the values and morals I uphold in my life.
>>5967149
The funny thing is women have made fun of men's dicks quite a bit but trans people think it's cissexist and transmisogynist. But then that was almost directly after mtfs on tumblr called ftms shrimpdicks for maybe two minutes and the ftms totally lost their shit.
Am I trans if I fulfill a more womanly role in my relationships, and wish I could bear my boyfriends child? We agreed my 'soul' seems to be female... I've also never found gay men attractive. I feel pretty doomed.
>>5967158
Fuck I've gone full-inarticulate.
I'll never be a transgendered man. I love eating pussy and playing up masculinity and oldworld courtship. But blablabla. I should shut up. Too many typos in my last response.
Done here! Interesting discussion though. I still have hope for the future. But then, I have such a small stake in this since I'm not queer, not genderfluid, not a woman.
kk done.
>>5967176
I think there is a trans help thread where you can ask. However - is there any sure test? No. There is no sure diagnosis. It's not a pass/fail. Trans is a choice. If it works out, it works out. But I'll also add that, no, you'll never be woman, and that, incidentally, I've seen "straight men" say they want to bear their gf's child. Are they transbians? Is there any way to be really sure?
>gay men have never lust over straight men so I must be trans
Man, how many gay men do you know?
>>5967168
>Adhere to the values and morals I uphold even if they're ridiculous and sexist double-think
Typical manlet
>>5967178
>implying transbians aren't masculine and don't eat pussy
>liking old world courtship and calling themselves a feminist
Dick-bearers are a Class and they are Too Much.
>>5967194
I've met dozens... I just got out of my first relationship though with said boyfriend. Incidentally, he decided he wants a wife and kids someday. (I'd had those feelings for him long before this happened, though.) It was long-term and I'm just feeling lost, I guess.
>>5967199
I know you're trolling. It doesn't matter that I'm six foot nothin' 30 years old, in a loving relationship, sensitive and experienced in intimacy and meaningful bonds, comfortable with sex, fair and responsible to loved-ones, romantic and otherwise.
Just curious though, where was I sexist?
I mean, I admit I'm latently sexist - it's a function of male privilege - but please show me where I've been consciously/explicitly sexist.
Or are you just trollan?
I won't bore anyone with a huge list of what I believe makes me a woman, or rather anything but a man. My feelings weigh down on me like a cage, while my body eats itself away, and all I want is to be a woman to myself and in other people's eyes. But to most people all I'll ever be is a disgusting confused man. I'm mostly just sorry that I can't ever fix this shortcoming in this lifetime. I'm so sorry, I've failed mankind and I've failed myself.
>>5967205
I don't think you know the full story. My lady and I are outspoken about feminism, her perspective and the concerns of women are my concerns as a lover and an ally, but I also 'treat her right,' and protect her, I'm powerful and strong in ways she likes, and I like it too, but I'm sensitive to what matters most.
Would you disallow old school courtship and embracing normative values if they're positive parts of our shared lives?
Would you disallow men identifying as feminists?
These positions seem regressive and reactionary.
I mentioned eating pussy just because... well.. god I love women. Even if they're horny brats at times. They're the best. I love being a good man for a good woman.
>>5967214
I really do recommend trying the trans-help thread. If these feelings constantly resurface and they're interfering with your life, you should probably get some help coping with it. But the last trans patient that got a uterus implanted passed away from complications, and I have no idea whether or not you'll be able to get what you want even if you do go trans.
By the way, if your idea of "womanly" means submissive, comforting caregiver - that's misogyny. You wouldn't be the first mtf to transition for misogynistic reasons but it's still misogyny.
Getting worked up over how other people describe themselves seems a little asinine, don't you guys think? Nobody's tangibly harming anyone by describing themselves with a certain label. If a trans woman says she's a woman, that's cool with me. People can go around calling themselves helicopters and I still wouldn't give a shit.
>>5967244
What in your eyes are not misogynistic reasons to transition even..
>>5967261
Not him, but surely "alleviating the symptoms of gender dysphoria" is a non-misogynistic reason to transition.
I'd like to hear his answer though, because all to often, the answer if "well gosh I've always felt like growing my hair out, wearing a dress, being objectified on the street, and slagging it up for the boys"
>>5967244
No, that is not misogyny. Being empathetic, comforting, etc. are not bad things. These are good things, and something men should aspire to. Considering "being nice" as something that is insulting is the real problem here.
>>5967270
Same guy.
I meant to say "her" answer. Pronouns matter.
I'm fucking it up because this thread is pretty wide-ranging re:identity politics.
>>5967236
>calling me regressive and reactionary and immediately thinking I have any power to stop you from calling yourself a feminist
>immediately thinking my one comment about yourself means all male feminists ever
Is it even important to me that you call yourself a feminist? No. Many feminists are bad feminists. It's irrelevant.
>calling women infantilizing names like brats
>getting this buttmad about my criticism about your personal relationship dynamic
Frankly you seem very immature for a 30 year old. And what is "old world courtship" anyway? A lot of it is misogyny, and some of what's believed to happen didn't actually happen. Anyway, I feel like this is somewhat off-topic, so whatever.
>>5967275
>i'm going to ignore the "submissive" part because I want to
>I'm also going to ignore the decades of feminist work that support the other anon's position and not mine and play into some "men should be nicer, feminism will save men" crap rather then "men should just stop being misogynists"
>>5967261
Did I call your desire to bear children misogynist?
>>5967277
>Is it even important to me that you call yourself a feminist? No. Many feminists are bad feminists. It's irrelevant.
Legit.
>calling women infantilizing names like brats
Brat is an endearing term. Consider 'army brat.' I like the idea of horny brats, because feminine sexuality is different than masculine sexuality. It's (maybe more) temperamental, but no less real than male desire. Just trying to suss out the differences from my experience. Horny brats is highest praise, in my mind. By comparison, men are horny animals, or horny infants. That's how I see it.
>getting this buttmad about my criticism about your personal relationship dynamic
Actually feeling quite relaxed tonight. I just figured a personal-tie-in to this discussion might calm the waters, and anchor the discussion in a place of open-heartedness.
>you seem very immature for a 30 year old.
Legit.
>And what is "old world courtship" anyway?
Well, my girl doesn't want to just go straight to fucking all the time, or getting complacent in netflix and sexfests. She wants to go on adventures. Book a spa for her birthday. Let me cook for her. Take her out. Those sorts of things. Moving slow and having fun in the early stages, enjoying the desire and not just jumping into madhouse casual sex and complacency in our outings.
>Anyway, I feel like this is somewhat off-topic, so whatever.
It is. I'm feeling verbose and outspoken. I'm stirring shit to a degree, but really, I'm interested in the intersection of [biological women owning womanhood] and [gender-defiers like MtFs not being miserable and repressed for their whole lives]
Finallly... lol that gif. saved.
>>5967252
Straight people calls themselves guydykes and girlfags and gay people get mad.
Bisexual women call themselves biromantic lesbians and lesbians get mad.
FAAB women call themselves non-binary, or circumgender, and then call themselves trans women, mtfs get mad.
You, though, are utterly immune and so above it all. Truly impressed.
>>5967310
No, Im a different anon, just came into this discussion with the whiny dump earlier >>5967227
Seeing as this is now about you and your wife's world-view and what makes someone truly male or female, so I'm genuinely asking. Tell me in what specific way you need me to be broken to qualify as a woman in your eyes and I'll be it.
>>5959475
...what?
I don't understand.
I don't get what you're even trying to say with this post?
Are you describing the life of someone transitioning as 12?
Or someone whose puberty malfunctioned and kept them female without even HRT?
Even in Queertown in the nation of Gayville, non-passing transexuals are fucking freaks not accepted by straights, gays or inbetweens.
How is that a privilege? Anywhere?
Being transexual means pretty much being an undead body walking, only people instead of running in fear of infection just throw rocks at you, since they know you're bound to kill yourself anyway.
>>5967323
>Consider 'army brat.' I like the idea of horny brats, because feminine sexuality is different than masculine sexuality. It's (maybe more) temperamental, but no less real than male desire. Just trying to suss out the differences from my experience. Horny brats is highest praise, in my mind. By comparison, men are horny animals, or horny infants. That's how I see it.
Well, to me army brat literally means you were a child with military parents living on a base, so... Also, I really don't think femininity = female, either. And your gf has her own sex drive, it's different for all women. 'Horny infants' is pretty creepy.
>She wants to go on adventures. Book a spa for her birthday. Let me cook for her. Take her out. Those sorts of things. Moving slow and having fun in the early stages, enjoying the desire and not just jumping into madhouse casual sex and complacency in our outings.
This is old world? Wow, I was thinking you meant champeroning and shit.
>>5967341
>you need me to be broken to qualify as a woman
Are you sure you even want to be female? You construct the process as utterly negative. And no, I would never consider you a woman.
I don't have a wife. You probably mean the other anon.
>>5967398
I'm already broken because I wasnt born a woman. I just thought you were gonna be pedantic about how broken before accepting me. Nvm then lol
>>5967410
Look, I want to be sympathetic, but considering sexism and the way the female body is seen as inferior and a "failed" body, and so on, I'm really, really not.
>>5967376
>your gf has her own sex drive, it's different for all women.
Legit
>horny brats
Ok yes. Problematic. I like it because a brat is an endearing, but stubborn, cutie term. Horny is clear as day.
I like the idea that women are full of desire, but temperamental compared to men (who would fuck any hole in front of them), so a man abides...
Push the right buttons. Be the right kind of hot. The right kind of lover. The right kind of masculine. The right kind of sensitive. The right amount of pressure on the clitoris. The right moves from gentle swaying, into erogenous zones, into wetness and passion.
Men cum easy - just pilot the spaceship home. Women take finesse - the mood, foreplay, circumstance, her period, etc. The setting, the timing, impromptu in the kitchen, long sweaty bouts until 5am, you never know!
But for me, I'm ready to consent 24/7, for her, it's temperamental, yet still the desire is there. Hence, horny brats. Ok sorry I'm going off.
Horny brats is problematic. It generalizes and the word 'brat' has baggage.
>This is old world?
I guess not. Ultimately it's just NOT falling into the culture of the day, which takes the romance away, commodifies interactions, and reduces sex to a transaction. Reduces relationships to complacency and expectation.
When I say old world courtship, I mean forging a meaningful bond between two full individuals, before getting lazy in roles and habits and expectations based on our shit normative society c. 2016
>>5967425
>"I'm broken!"
>"Women are broken!"
>"Gays are broken!"
>"The is broken!"
>"/lgbrokent/"
>"broken.org"
>dankdankdankdankdankdankdank, dankdankdankdankdankdank MEME
>>5967331
I'm a trans woman myself and I honestly don't give a shit if a genderqueer person or whatever calls themselves trans. I'm very happy to know that i'm not wrapped up in the toxic and self-righteous brand of identity respectablility politics that plagues this board. Guys like you just need to take the collective stick out of your ass. Besides, transsexual =//= transgender. Transgender is basically a wacky umbrella term that includes anyone who breaks the cishets' arbitrary rules on gender. Don't really care who places themselves under it.
And fuck you. I have some really good friends who are genderfluid/queer, and for you to mock their identities by suggesting that they aren't transgender is very problematic. :^(
>>5966656
Shut up, raw shark
>>5967836
not your personal etc. etc.
>>>https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender
Reminder: Brianna Wu is MtF.
>>5967885
thankfully brianna wu isn't human
>>5967028
>For every woman being used as a hole for sex worldwide there's a man being used as a meat shield in a war or some awful occupation like a sewer maintenance technician that you never see women working.
Nearly every woman is seen as a sex object by somebody. Whereas there are plenty of men who have never been in the military or had to work in "dirty" jobs. Also, you're pointing to the underclass as "proof" that men aren't privileged, but the person you're replying to was talking about gender groups as a whole. Yes, lower class people lack privilege, but that's not what's being talked about here. Gender is the specific trait that's being isolated for discussion.
>>5957872
Not rlly tbqh.
"Going trans" doesn't necessarily include access to all the current best available treatments and surgeries and family/community acceptance.
People have been trying to express their gender identity as much as they were able to since before modern surgery and medication gave them more realistic options for transition and they continue to today in those areas that largely lack access to modern treatments and acceptance.
Consider this: a 17 year old femmy looking boy posts on Reddit to see if he 'passes.' Kid has not undergone any transitioning treatment, has not read any books on feminism or transgenderism, has a very limited view of what 'womanhood' might even mean.
Yet there he is, asking other MtFs and chasers if he can claim womanhood for himself.
It's the height of privilege and totally negligent of women's experiences or tribulations.
>>5971703
>asking people if you look like a woman == claiming to be a woman
????
>>5971709
>unable to draw connections between multi-faceted layers of discourse across the internet
1. Transpassing is a place for MtFs and chasers to say "yes baby, you pass as a woman."
2. "Pass as a woman" can be taken to mean "Are a woman" as far as MtFs are concerned.
3. Observe a child with little-to-no experience with women, or with feminist/trans literature, asking the hugbox for the garunteed response, "you pass as" (are) "a woman."
Can you not see the privileged male circlejerk at work here?
Why do TERFs and gender crits try to talk shit to trans women about oppressed they are and how fetishized their bodies are? Legit question.
The bodies of trans women are also very much fetishized and even objectified often to the point where their agency and identities are ignored, effectively dehumanizing them. Much worse, the kind of people that objectify trans women in such a crude and invalidating manner are usually all a trans woman has to pick from for potential romantic partners. A trans woman's identity is often casually reduced to her genitals and what surgeries she's had. This is clearly evidenced by the constant barrage of condescending and invasive questions from cis people who passively treat trans women like walking science experiments.
Ultimately a cis woman's body is celebrated by society. It is widely idealized as something beautiful, to be cherished and protected at any cost. It may sometimes be fetishized, objectified or passively labeled as physically inferior by sexist men and women. But those people and their platitudes are rapidly becoming outdated and strongly discouraged by western society. To add to that, a cis woman can easily find a partner who truly respects her and her body.
On the other hand, a trans woman's body is something that is almost universally percieved as broken, inferior or deformed and it directly influences how we are treated by our cis counterparts. Even those that supposedly harbor attraction and affection for us widely think of us as lesser beings. Inferior to both a cis man and woman.
>>5971861
>Why do TERFs and gender crits try to talk shit to trans women about [how] oppressed they are
A transwoman was born and raised without an oppressed, fetishized body - they were born, raised, and socialized as a boy/man. Thus they have that privilege.
Girls get sexualized by the gaze very early on (age 8) and become aware of it early on (age 11 they notice those looks). Boys and men don't deal with that. This is privilege.
No, transwomen don't deal with that bullshit until they choose to transition/adopt girlmode, which is a privileged choice to make.
>a trans woman's body is something that is almost universally percieved as broken/deformed
If you mutilate your body and fuck around with your endocrine system, yes, you will be perceived as broken/deformed. It's unfortunate, but yes, true.
Metaphor: Like if you got a tattoo on your face.
Metaphor continued: Meanwhile you could get a tattoo on your arm, make a statement, and not be harshly judged.
Wrapping up the metaphor: There are a lot of people in the bay who push the boundaries of genderfluidity. They are male, but they are femmy. They are men, but they wear girl's clothes. They are women, but they are muscular. Nobody views them as broken or deformed. They view them as courageous, provocative, sexy.
Maybe instead of leaping to the uninformed conclusion that "I MUST BE A WOMAN," questioning youths should instead conclude "I should experiment with genderfluidity and address my insecurities, fears, and neuroses."
You'd get a lot less harshness from the feminist community, and more acceptance from the mainstream community, if you simply shrugged off the rigidity of gender roles, instead of going balls-deep into one-or-the-other.
>>5971926
>A transwoman was born and raised without an oppressed, fetishized body - they were born, raised, and socialized as a boy/man. Thus they have that privilege.
>Girls get sexualized by the gaze very early on (age 8) and become aware of it early on (age 11 they notice those looks). Boys and men don't deal with that. This is privilege.
The sexualizing of young girls is heavily discouraged in western society. The type of gazes you're describing are most commonly attributed to pedophiles and it is heavily stigmatized. Most parents won't even allow their daughters to wear makeup or revealing clothes until at least mid adolescence. I'd even go as far to say that a young male's body is also sexualized, just in a different manner. They're expected to be tall, muscular and physically adept. A male's body is also considered expendable and hardy. I wouldn't necessarily consider that a privilige. Males and females have certain advantages and disadvantages. Propping one side up as 'privileged' just because of their own natural biology is asinine.
>No, transwomen don't deal with that bullshit until they choose to transition/adopt girlmode, which is a privileged choice to make.
It really isn't. Seeking medical help to ease dysphoria and prevent your own suicide is anything but a privilege.
>If you mutilate your body and fuck around with your endocrine system, yes, you will be perceived as broken/deformed. It's unfortunate, but yes, true.
You're pretty much proving my point here, and your callous, matter of fact way of describing our bodies as 'mutilated' shows a lot of undue prejudice on your part. Our bodies aren't mutilated, they may be modified, but they aren't mutilated. There is no real difference between someone with an arm tattoo and someone with a facial tattoo. They both have tattoos, the only difference is that the one with a facial tattoo is more stigmatized by society. The standards for which one is more 'mutilated' are arbitrary and socially constructed.
>>5957872
>t. /r9k/
(cont.)
>>5971926
>Wrapping up the metaphor: There are a lot of people in the bay who push the boundaries of genderfluidity. They are male, but they are femmy. They are men, but they wear girl's clothes. They are women, but they are muscular. Nobody views them as broken or deformed. They view them as courageous, provocative, sexy.
Maybe among certain niche crowds or social liberals, but they are not universally perceived that way. Most people would in fact perceive them as broken, grotesque or morally degenerate. In fact, I'd say that they face even more prejudice simply for failing to conform while also subverting cishets' binary views on gender. This is especially true for AMAB GNC people and it's partially why trans women face so much bullshit from cishets.
>>5972097
>The type of gazes you're describing are most commonly attributed to pedophiles and it is heavily stigmatized.
Talk to enough women about their experiences as children, coming into sexual awareness, and you will find that despite the stigma, the gaze is common. Not just among pedos. It really is a thing.
>It really isn't. Seeking medical help to ease dysphoria and prevent your own suicide is anything but a privilege.
That's a fair point. The issue of dysphoria is nothing to take lightly. I accede to your position - suffering from dysphoria is, at its roots, lacking able-bodied privelege.
>You're pretty much proving my point here, and your callous, matter of fact way of describing our bodies as 'mutilated' shows a lot of undue prejudice on your part.
I'm sorry to be callous. It's hard to talk politely on the chans. I'm trying to use metaphors to spur discussion and understanding. For example, here's another one:
A guy who takes steroids to become a muscle bound, Arnold-tier bodybuilder will be looked at as a freak. But a guy who simply lifts weights, stays natty, and is muscular, will not be looked at this way.
Likewise, youths in gender-confusion should adopt transgressive modes of presentation without going full-throttle "I AM A WOMAN" if they want to be treated within the spectrum of acceptability. Some MtFs simply cannot pass, and would do themselves well to just push the boundaries of gender-identity, rather than go off the edge.
Your points are well-taken though. I respect them. I still just try to reconcile women's ownership of womanhood from a feminist perspective, with the undeniable right for MtFs to live with a modicum of comfort and respect (read: not completely miserable in public).
Thanks for replying thoughtfully.
