Cis gay here. I was watching this clip from Louis CK's new show.
https://youtu.be/CbUMqNBO-W8
I felt like it was a preachy liberal moment, and I'm all for a society that's nicer to trans people, but I didn't find her very persuasive. I thought this:
If someone consents to have sex with you under a false pretense, that is rape by deception.
Many straight cis men do not want to have sex with trans women. Now, I shy away from scrutinizing people's sexual preferences. But even concedeing that it's a 'bad' preference, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that they shouldn't have the opportunity to decline on that basis.
Since we have reason to believe that a decent proportion of men will decline to have sex with an otherwise eligible woman if they know her to be trans, a trans woman should disclose her trans status before she has sex. To have sex with someone who presumably takes you for a cis woman, when there's a high probability (say, for the sake of argument, ~0.35) they would not give consent if they knew you were trans, means that there's an unacceptably high probability that a kind of rape by deception is occurring.
What do you think, trans anons? I'm guessing at least some of you agree? (Pic unrelated.)
>>5876044
>Many straight cis men do not want to have sex with trans women
Do gay men want to have sex with trans women?
>>5876064
No, I'm pretty sure that in general they don't.
>>5876044
Rape by deception is bullshit. Besides, the impetus to ask still falls on the person that would ask, not the trans person. If you just assume someone is cis without ever asking, then its your fault if they turn out not to be.
>>5876044
I think it's difficult to define what exactly is enough of a "false pretense" for it to qualify rape. Rather, I think it should only be counted as rape if you figure out something's wrong and you're NOT allowed to leave at that point. Because otherwise we'd have situations where if a male neglects to explicitly state he has a small penis, it could be counted as rape.
There isn't a deception happening. If they're all snip snip total pass, and they elected to do everything, they're women. The man is having a pussy around his dick. It's nothing but blind bigotry and it opens transwomen up to being straight up murdered. If the choice is between protecting some asshole's hopelessly fragile delusion of reality, and the life of a minority, any just person would opt for the latter every time.
Rape by deception is when you break into someone's house in the middle of the night and pretend to be someone's boyfriend. It's not going around and refusing to tell each person that ever flirts with you every irrelevant detail of your medical history. Being a tranny isn't contagious, faggot. It doesn't matter.
If they can't tell, and they didn't ask, it's they're fucking fault. Reframing regret as rape is abusive.
I guess part of what I felt is that there's already a lot of bile directed towards transgender people already. And in this case she was genuinely being unreasonable, which will of course only serves to exacerbate the problem and stimulate anti-trans sentiment. The comment section is pretty bad, unsurprisingly.
>>5876044
God, you can see the smugness dripping off her.
>>5876082
If he has a small dick you can just not fuck him once he takes it out.
>>5876044
If a hot girl who was fat but lost a lot of weight has sex with you, that's rape because you're really fucking a fat chick. Right?
I should clarify that I'm not just asking whether it's rape by deception or should be illegal. I'm also putting the ethical question of whether they *should* disclose.
>>5876172
No, they have no reason to. If they have a vagina, they're just as much a 'real woman' in a sexual sense as any other woman. There is *no perceivable difference* therefore between fucking a transgender woman and a cis woman.
>>5876151
And you can do the same if you find out a girl has a dick. Again, it's only rape if you're somehow prevented from leaving.
>>5876044
>rape by deception
Rape by deception is a bullshit concept.
Is it rape by deception if you lie about being rich? Is it rape by deception if a man lies about the size of his dick? Is it rape by deception if you pretended to like things the person you were fucking does so you can get in bed with them?
Anybody can claim "rape by deception" for whatever dumb reason.
There's no deception.
I feel like because of transphobic sentiments in the world currently it's smart to disclose, but in the end a dick is going into a pussy, does it matter if it's natal or not?
>>5876170
If a sufficiently high percentage of men had a strongly felt preference not to have sex with women who used to be fat, and formerly fat women were sufficiently rare that people generally didn't ask (though they might if it were more prevalent, because the preference is so strong), I would say that women who used to be fat should inform their sexual partners.
>>5876187
I 100% agree about the pre-op case. The post-op case is the interesting one to me.
>>5876193
That doesn't make any sense. Said woman is no longer fat, so who gives a shit if she used to be? Same deal with trannies - used to be a man, but no longer is. Sure I might be a little put off if she told me, and it would be something I'd need to work through, but for a casual hookup I'd say she doesn't have to disclose. At the end of the day, what I don't know can't hurt me.
>>5876191
Yeah, it does matter. Sorry hon, you're never going to be a real girl.
If a 'chaser' lies to a trans woman and says he's an 'open minded straight guy that didn't know' and gets into her pants when she would have rejected him otherwise, is it rape by deception? Serious question. I've done this to a bunch of trans girls and I'm starting to wonder if this applies to me.
I think it fits under rape by deception, but I also don't support rape by deception in any case so whatever.
>>5876234
I'd certainly consider it unethical.
>>5876239
So if a tranny lies about what she is and gets sexual consent under false pretenses, it's rape, but if a chaser does it, it's just unethical?
>>5876234
Wouldn't say it's "rape by deception", but it is deceptive, and ACTIVELY so, unlike merely neglecting to disclose your trans status.
>>5876234
Definitely don't think it's rape by deception. Sure, it's pretty deceptive, but not rape by any means.
>>5876259
I think they're fairly equivalent, and they're both rape by deception in the sense I'm using it. Which is loose. I'm not a lawyer.
>>5876044
Why does it matter if your sexual partner used to be a man? She isn't now, she has a vagina, you can't tell the difference, end of story. Prove me wrong.
>>5876282
>buy a diamond
>find out later it's cubic zirconia
>what does it matter? you can't tell the difference?
>>5876297
That's funny cause diamonds are way overpriced and overvalued due to clever monopoly scheming and arbitrary social traditions. They're also a huge waste of money.
OP here. I think there's an argument to be made that rape by deception should not be a crime. ("You don't actually like my mother? Rapist!") But then there's the case of, like, sneaking into someone's dark bedroom and pretending you're their BF, which clearly seems like it should be a crime. Maybe the distinction that should be drawn is between lying and downright pretending to be someone else, with the latter being a crime.
I'm not sure whether "rape by deception" is the best term to use here because it's inflammatory. Maybe "misinformed consent" might be a better term. When I was writing my post, I think I was using the existence of something called "rape by deception", which most people would agree is wrong, as a premise of my argument. I didn't think too much about the implications or how it sounds.
>>5876328
So don't buy one. It doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to buy diamonds if they have more money than sense without getting defrauded.
>>5876044
1. a pre-op transwoman cannot hide her dick once she's naked. therefore, having sex and then complaining afterwards because you don't want to feel "gay" about it isn't valid.
2. a post-op transwoman has a vagina, and for sexual intents is not distinguishable from a cis woman, and therefore it cannot be claimed she is misrepresenting herself
3. the philosophical problems with this "rape by deception" fallacy is that if we are to assume that it is valid, then suddenly people can start making shit up to claim against their partners:
>"she didn't tell me she was infertile, that means she raped me because i spent time fucking her to have a baby,"
>"he used viagara to get hard but didn't tell me, that's rape because he obviously has a disability and didn't tell me about it"
it's complete bullshit that men want to extend EVEN FURTHER their power over women's bodies and lives. i mean, in all honesty, what are you going to do about it, legislate that all women intending to have sex be carrying their original birth certificate and photo-id?
if "straight men" want to demonize the sjw crowd for suggesting that society should tippy-toe around people's feelings, then they can't very well claim that infringing on people's rights is only valid when it's MEN'S feelings that get hurt.
tldr: you had sex with a tranny. you consented. don't like it? suck it up, big boy.
What happens if a trans has sex with a guy that regrets it and says she's a man, but the woman in question was both post op and legally recognized as a female at the time?
>>5876385
what happens if a guy doesn't want to have sex with ciswomen and he goes around assuming all women are post-op trans and then gets deceived into fucking a cis woman. is that rape?
>>5876397
whoa
>>5876297
The cubic zirconia has a lower resale value than the diamond, and if you go to sell it the buyer would figure this out and you would lose money. There's no such comparison for 'sex with a transwoman'. But this analogy fails on an even simpler point - it assumes trans women are not real women, which is not true. They are women who once were men. That would be like
>buy a diamond
>find out it used to be a lump of coal which was exposed to high pressure and temperature
>>5876397
Yes
To be honest, if the guy can't tell the difference and she's stealthed, there's basically no reason to bother telling them unless it escalates into a real relationship. Fuckbuddies / one nighters? Fuck no. Heck, they won't even notice unless you tell them, so what's the difference to you?
I mean, trans women want to be women and treated as much, not like a trans woman.
>>5876409
>buy a diamond and sign a contract saying you can never sell it
>it's a cubic zirconia. you still can't resell it because somehow the contract is still in force.
I thought of your objection before, but I didn't think it really mattered for the core of my analogy. The basic principle is that if you buy something, you shouldn't be defrauded, even if you were given a fake that most people cannot readily distinguish from the genuine.
>>5876435
>the genuine
article
>>5876044
By that logic everyone needs to disclose every single aspect of their life before sex can occur. What if I have sex with you and then find out you're a Muslim, and I'm strongly turned off by the thought of fucking Muslims? Does that make you a rapist?
In my opinion, unless your partner lies, it's on YOU to make sure you're not fucking someone you don't want to fuck.
>>5876435
Your net worth would still be less than if you had an actual diamond, but nevertheless I see your point. Your analogy still takes the position that trans women are like shitty knockoff women, though, which I don't believe is true.
>If someone consents to have sex with you under a false pretense, that is rape by deception.
First of all, what the fuck is "rape by deception"? That's not a thing. Rape means overpowering or forcing someone into sex.
Everyone hides things about themselves to get sex. Everyone. All the men who lie to women telling them they love them, telling them no your ass doesn't look to big, etc must all be rapists?
I would want to know if the person I was dating was a Christian. That would be a huge dealbreaker for me if they were. I'm not so fucking retarded that I think someone not telling me their religion, or even lying about it to get with me, is raping me. It's lying which is not a good thing but it's not rape.
>>5876077
How has no one called out this bullshit? If you are a man that, without any surgery or hormones, happens to "pass" as a woman and you offer to suck another man's dick **under false pretenses that you are a woman,** how are you not misleading that person? You told someone you were something else in order to get something from that person.
If trans people were proud of who they were they would openly accept their past and present. If you want someone to truly love you for you, and not exploit them sexually, wouldn't you want them to.know your past?
By your logic, if I have HIV and I have sex with another person, without them knowing, it is their fault for not asking. Real responsible.
>>5876905
Except that's not comparable. You don't get an incurable virus by having sex with a trans person. Nothing strange happens to you, and heck, you would never know that they're trans anyway.
>>5876905
>If you are a man that, without any surgery or hormones, happens to "pass" as a woman
>pre-mones DMAB's passing as women ever
Anyway, ignoring that impossibility, why does it fucking matter? He's not looking to fuck trap-chan in the vag he just wants a bj
>By your logic, if I have HIV and I have sex with another person, without them knowing, it is their fault for not asking. Real responsible.
There is a big difference between being trans and STD's being spread. Your life isn't threatened by fucking a tranny.
It seriously doesn't fucking matter. If you consent to putting your dick into a pussy without checking if it's the sort of pussy you want then it's your own damn fault. Maybe get your prospective partner to sign a form declaring every aspect of their life that might affect you in some remote way (religion, weight, sex, favourite tv shows etc...) if you're that bothered.
>>5876170
being fat isnt in your genes like being a boy is stupid
>>5876787
>what the fuck is "rape by deception"?
Sex the victim wouldn't have consented to if the victim knew certain information.
It's like the story where a woman was dating a man over the internet and decided to meet up and have sex, but she was blindfolded and the guy was acting strange. When she pulled off the blindfold the man was in fact a woman using a dildo on her. If she had known her partner was a woman she wouldn't have consented in the first place.
If it is actually legally defined as rape I don't know, but the general consensus is that people don't like feeling deceived.
>It doesn't matter AT ALL guys! The only possible reason not to want to fuck a transwoman is transphobia!
Oh come off it. I'm all for trans people not having to wear Holocaust armbands or whatever but this is simply redoculous.
I'm depressive. As in I could have all the reason in the world to be happy sometimes Im just not. This can hop between just being entirely emotionally numb to being pretty distraught. Brain chemistry. For a relationship partner this requires a degree of patience. A lot of the time if I can't give a shit I just can't. Going to give it a go but often 'eh'. This could be a lot to handle and more than somebody bargained for in a relationship, even if it's a fwb arrangement. All mental shit like this is the same. And that includes being trans. It's entirely understandable if people just don't want to deal with that. Especially if it's in a sexual nature. I'd have trouble fucking an anorexic for fear of saying the wrong thing and setting off their body issues.
And then there's just the fact that there are simply things a neo-vag can't do. Especially in the context of long-term serious relationships. For the same reason it's polite to tell somebody early in the relationship that you're sterile, it's polite to tell them that you're, well, effectively sterile.
Also fake boobs are really shitty. For the love of God just have small boobs, they're great. You don't need to spoil it and staple balloons to your chest.
>but that's all relationship stuff
Yeah, well, most people don't go to places to meet people with the intent of having one night stands the rest of their life.
1. If fucking a woman that used to be a man makes someone "gay", it also makes them a pedophile since the woman also used to be a child.
2. One should not have to disclose one's medical history to potential sexual partners except if it's something contagious. Being trans is as irrelevant as being diabetic.
That being said, hiding a cruical part of your history and what makes you who you are from a romantic partner might be considered dishonest or secretive, and is not something I would personally approve of. But that's not an ethical judgement, just my personal preference for honesty in romantic partners.
3. Refusing to sleep with a woman because, and JUST because, she is trans is pure bigotry.
Claming that her not telling you is "rape by deception" since you wouldn't have slept with her if you had known is no different then claming the same for a woman who has black african ancestry but passes as white, because you're a racist and wouldn't have slept with her if you'd known.
That being said, I don't see why the women in either case would WANT to sleep with a bigoted D-bag who hates people like her.
>>5877997
>I'm depressive. As in I could have all the reason in the world to be happy sometimes Im just not. This can hop between just being entirely emotionally numb to being pretty distraught. Brain chemistry. For a relationship partner this requires a degree of patience. A lot of the time if I can't give a shit I just can't. Going to give it a go but often 'eh'. This could be a lot to handle and more than somebody bargained for in a relationship, even if it's a fwb arrangement. All mental shit like this is the same. And that includes being trans. It's entirely understandable if people just don't want to deal with that. Especially if it's in a sexual nature. I'd have trouble fucking an anorexic for fear of saying the wrong thing and setting off their body issues.
>And then there's just the fact that there are simply things a neo-vag can't do. Especially in the context of long-term serious relationships. For the same reason it's polite to tell somebody early in the relationship that you're sterile, it's polite to tell them that you're, well, effectively sterile.
This is all well and true, and it should really come as no surprise that being honest is extremly important in any long-term human relationship, whether romance, friendship or fwb or whatever else. But what you say applies more to long-term relationships and not just one night stands and strictly sexual relationships. I don't need my fling to know about my depression; that's something I tell my best friend and partner.
Also, not being honest would not make you a "rapist", but simply a dishonest and secretive person, whom I personally would not want to have a relationship with any more than I would want to be with a cheater or a compulsive gambler. Being bad relationship material because of dishonesty is not rape, it's just being a bit of an arsehole.
>>5876044
>If someone consents to have sex with you under a false pretense, that is rape by deception.
It's not.
>Many straight cis men do not want to have sex with trans women.
Then they can simply not have sex with trans women.
>a trans woman should disclose her trans status before she has sex.
Why? You're getting what you see.
If you can't see the difference, and thought it was good, then you obviously liked it, and wanted to do it.
>To have sex with someone who presumably takes you for a cis woman, when there's a high probability (say, for the sake of argument, ~0.35) they would not give consent if they knew you were trans, means that there's an unacceptably high probability that a kind of rape by deception is occurring.
It's up to them to know if you're cis or trans, they gave consent... What you are saying, is that rape claims of "I change my mind after a week!" should be legitimate.
Go back to >>>/tumblr/ SJW shit.
>>5876905
>**under false pretenses that you are a woman,**
But she is a woman, so it's not under false pretenses.
If I think some guy is rich, because he dressed that way... Does that mean I can claim rape when it appears he's not rich?
>>5878036
If being a bit dishonest to people you want to fuck is rape, every person ever in the history of people is a rapist. Just wearing cologne would be attempted rape for crying out loud, since I'm being deceptive about my real smell in order to be more attractive and maybe get laid.
Like >>5876093 and >>5877888
said, the "rape by deception" is really for major fucking things, not neglecting to tell someone I used to stutter when I was 7 or suffered from anxity a few years back.
>>5878028
Oh no, yeah. Not even touching on the rape stuff. Was more commenting in the fact that this idea that a person who doesn't want to sleep with a trans person because they're trans is some how megahitler is silly and shouldn't be as widespread as it is.
Pretty much everyone knows I'm trans including the women and men that I date. I don't realy believe in casual sex so anyone I have sex with is gonna know about my past beforehand.
But honestly I have never heard a man give a good reason for why he would be "traumatized" by a sexual encounter with a trans woman. Here are the reasons I've heard so far:
>I'm not gay, and I don't want to be gay.
First of all there's nothing wrong with being gay. Second, you're still not gay. You had sex with a woman.
>The fact that she's trans is unattractive to me sexually.
Being trans has not changed her physical appearance. You were attracted to her sexually when you didn't know she was trans, right? Nothing physical has changed. If you bang a girl and then find out she's an annoying, clingy bitch that you lost all feeings for, you wouldn't call that first sexual encounter being raped.
>It's lying
9 times out of 10, you didn't ask her. Why does she have to share a part of her life that doesn't affect her ability to have sex? By all accounts, you've had sex with a woman.
>My friends will make fun of me
Then you're friends are being transphobic dickheads, sorry. If your main concern is protecting your reputation, then you are playing into the same system that's been putting us down for years. I don't know how you can say that you're "all for a society that's nicer to trans people" and still engage in that kind of hypocrisy. It's pure cowardice.
You might notice that I didn't mention women who have sex with trans women. This is because you NEVER hear this shit from women, it's always men.
>>5877997
>And then there's just the fact that there are simply things a neo-vag can't do.
How did this disinfo begin? A neo-vag by one of the big doctors is indistinguishable from a cis vagina, except that it can't self-lubricate.
>>5878402
Many neovags can even self-lubricate nowadays
>>5878402
It's not.
>>5878464
then you can't be deceived.
>>5876044
>Since we have reason to believe that a decent proportion of men will decline to have sex with an otherwise eligible woman if they know her to have irritable bowel syndrome, a woman should disclose her IBS status before she has sex. To have sex with someone who presumably takes you for a healthy woman, when there's a high probability (say, for the sake of argument, ~0.35) they would not give consent if they knew you might accidentally shit on them, means that there's an unacceptably high probability that a kind of rape by deception is occurring
Being trans is a medical condition, and honestly none of the other person's business, just like any other medical condition that isn't a communicable disease. If you've still got a dick, then yeah, you should definitely tell them before you even get close to the bedroom to avoid the high possibility of getting murder raped, but if you've got a vag and they think you're hot enough to fuck then you don't owe them any explanation about your personal medical history
>>5878390
>it's always men
Men are super-scared of being gay. This is the reason STD-tests don't ask just if you're gay or not, but if you're a "man who has sex with men". Because lots of dudes are totally cool with fucking other dudes as long as that doesn't make them gay or anything.
>>5876297
Women aren't diamonds though, that's exactly what feminists mean when they talk about objectifying women. And furthermore, in that instance, the only reason a fake diamond is worse than a real one (if it looks exactly the same) is that it's not a valid status symbol. But you shouldn't be dating women on the basis of how good a status symbol they are, you should be dating them based on whether you actually like them or not.
>>5876435
Unless you specifically enter a contract to pay for sex, it's not a valid comparison. If someone just agrees to give you something as a gift, and you assume it's a real diamond but it turns out to be a fake, you can't take them to court over it.
>>5876905
>By your logic, if I have HIV and I have sex with another person, without them knowing, it is their fault for not asking. Real responsible.
Gender dysphoria is not a communicable disease. You're not going to end up with a life threatening condition just because you fuck a woman who was born male. Making this comparison is an insult to actual HIV sufferers.
>>5877384
And how does that make any kind of difference?
>>5876044
I cringed through that whole video.
I'm transgender, and I pass as female, but everytime men hit on me or make advances toward me, I feel guilty, like I'm deceiving them. To a lesser extent, I feel this way in general in my daily life too.
One time a guy made out with me and then found out I was trans (cause I told him). He was so mad, and I felt terrible about what I did. I felt like I tricked him. I felt cheap. I almost always out myself before a person kisses me, but I was rolling and he just did it before I had a chance.
I could never have sex with someone without first telling them that I am trans. As much as I wish I could be a real woman, I know that I'm not. I'm just an imitation, a fake. I'm lucky that I am a very good fake though, because it makes this sad lonely life of mine easier not being a visible freak.
I want someone to love and desire me for me. That's what intimacy is about for me. Even if it is just a primal one night stand, I want to feel desired for who I am, not who I pass as.
>rape by deception
I think this is BS though.
You're either sexually attracted to a person or you're not. If you believe in "rape by deception" should be applied to trans people, then why not apply to the whole population. Why not require everyone to divulge their medical history and all the skeletons from their past.
Contact lenses? Dyed hair? Spray on tan? Breathe mints? Yeah that's all "rape by deception."
Rape by deception sounds like projecting assumptions onto a person, and then being disappointed they don't fit the narrative that you made up for them.
Also, OP don't make up statistics out of your ass. Doing this will always make you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
yeah...I'm a trans person and I'm not convinced
>so I person who transitions into women should only have sex with someone who gets off to fucking trans women
yes!
the same way women only have sex with people who like to fuck women.
Sexuality is so much more gradient, so much more of a spectrum then people like to think.
With trans people it gets muddy.
I am of the persuasion that someone who likes traps or mtfs is mostly straight, but that doesn't mean all straight people would or should be sexually attracted to them.
So yes, people should have intercourse with who they are attracted to, it doesn't make it a fetish anymore then being attracted to the same sex is a fetish.
it can be for some people.
but that's another story
>>5879072
>Being trans is a medical condition, and honestly none of the other person's business, just like any other medical condition that isn't a communicable disease
Fucking this. You can't catch gay from fucking a tramny, it changes nothing and had no effect on you or your well-being, so it's not their problem
>>5876905
>>5876905
>By your logic, if I have HIV and I have sex with another person, without them knowing, it is their fault for not asking. Real responsible.
Real responsibility IS asking about the status of your partner and using protection. If there is something that scares you, and you don't want to have sex with certain people because of this fear, then it is YOUR responsibility to avoid doing so - not everyone else's.
>>5878048
>>5876447
>If being a bit dishonest to people you want to fuck is rape, every person ever in the history of people is a rapist. Just wearing cologne would be attempted rape for crying out loud, since I'm being deceptive about my real smell in order to be more attractive and maybe get laid.
This.
If there is a type of person that you fear you might be sexually attracted to, and you want to avoid having sex with said person for whatever reason, then it is your responsibility to avoid doing so.
Everyone else cannot know what prejudices you hold, and cater sexually to your wants. If you want to be a big boy and do the no pants dance with others, then you need to take responsibility for who you chose to stick your dick into.
This is especially laughable considering that the typical "rape by deception" scenario as it exists for trans people is a fucking one night stand where you basically know fuck all about the person regardless of if they are trans or not. If you are the kind of person to cry rape when a stranger doesn't fit the assumptions you had about them, then maybe you shouldn't be out having sex with people you just met.
>>5879406
>then maybe you shouldn't be out having sex with people you just met.
Slutshaming! j/k, great post m8, 10/10 have a (You)
>>5879323
>I want someone to love and desire me for me. That's what intimacy is about for me. Even if it is just a primal one night stand, I want to feel desired for who I am, not who I pass as.
well put
>>5879406
If it's not rape to have sex by deception, does that mean that tricking somebody into having sex with me, for example by pretending to be somebody else, is also fair game?
>>5879323
I am so sorry you feel this way. You should believe in yourself. Nothing makes a woman 'real' or 'fake' except for the way she feels about herself. Your feeling are the things that define you, nothing else.
And the whole concept of 'rape by deception' is ridiculous. You're either attracted to someone or you're not. If at some point you see something you dislike, you can call it off. Being trans is not a threat to you. The person should not be required to disclose it.
>>5879664
I wouldn't say that's rape, more like fraud or something. And again, the fact that you're ACTIVELY making false statements makes it different than simply not saying something.
>>5877384
Oh, you want to talk genetics? If a man with XX male syndrome - genetically female, but with a male body - has sex with a straight woman, is *that* rape by deception?
>>5879726
>more like fraud or something.
So what's the restitution? The market value of prostitution from the "victim"?
>>5879664
If you lie to that person, it's morally wrong. If they just assume, then that's on them. Same with transgender people: if they lie about their birth sex then that's a moral wrong, but if the other person just assumes they're cis then that's totally on the other person.
I don't even know why there's a question to be honest, it's fairly simple shit.
>>5879777
What's that supposed to mean?
>>5879802
If you fraud me out of my car, you owe me a car.
If you fraud me into painting your house, you owe me the labor costs of that work.
If you fraud me into sex, what do you owe me?
>>5879862
If I "fraud you" out of a car, my retribution is decided by a judge in a court of law.
If I "fraud you" into painting my house I'm basically Tom Sawyer, but still my retribution is decided by a judge in a court of law.
If I "fraud you" into sex... do you see where this is going?
>>5879882
...law is supposed to reflect damages.
What damages do you think should be reflected by the laws you are proposing for banning sex fraud?
OP here again. Here's a scenario. Some guy does not want to sleep with trans women, and says so explicitly. However, he doesn't know you're trans and doesn't ask. Is it OK to have sex with him?
well all men are rapists so if they are a man and hey fuck you then it is rape
>>5882936
How does he state that but not ask? And it is alright, even if not the most 'honourable' thing to do.
>>5876044
i don't quite get where this extension of the definition of "rape by deception" comes from.
a straight man defines his sexuality as wanting to have sex with women.
a trans woman believes herself to be a woman.
what are the repercussions of a straight guy having sex with a woman without knowing she's trans?
does it imply he's going to be at a financial loss?
does it imply he is going to be subject to payments of child support or alimony?
does it imply he's going to get an STD?
what are the repercussions? he feels some sense of revulsion born of his own prejudices?
are there going to be social repercussions for him?
if she was stealth enough to "deceive" him, then no. if he "fell" for her and couldn't see it, who else is going to see it? if anyone else clocks her but him, his stupidity does not equal her deceit.
but should trans people tell prospective partners they're trans? not out of any ethical obligation, but out of common sense and regard for their own safety yes.
>>5883004
>if she was stealth enough to "deceive" him, then no. if he "fell" for her and couldn't see it, who else is going to see it? if anyone else clocks her but him, his stupidity does not equal her deceit.
So guys have an obligation to spot traps, in your view?
>>5883059
If having sex with a trans girl is such an abhorrent outcome for them, then yes.
>>5882936
Most trans women wouldn't want to sleep with a guy that said that anyway. But it's morally ambiguous in that situation to be honest, I wouldn't necessarily say it's wrong but maybe a little underhanded.
>>5883299
and some people wonder why trans people kill themselves
>>5883343
It sucks, but there are lots of people who think this way. So I think if your preference is to not sleep with trans women, you need to be the one to make sure this doesn't happen. It's not on her to assume that sleeping with a tgirl may be undesirable for you.
>>5883621
Aye. I wouldn't be as nice, but this is the 'reasonable' way to handle this insanity.
>>5883678
What do you mean you "wouldn't be as nice"?
>>5883698
That I'd tell them their issues are shit, they are shit and they need to be fucking hit.
>>5883713
Tgirl here, and I mean, I guess I can see why they might have an issue with it. The media makes it pretty clear that sex with a tranny is something to be avoided in our society.
>>5883730
I am not really excluding media from my vitriol. It, too, is absolute and utter shit.
It makes me sad that you show understanding to people so undeserving of it. I don't know if you're strong or afraid, but I hope you take care of yourself. Always put your own safety over someone's rotten feelings.
>>5882961
if this is fake its an under rated post
cringe. I think you should definitely tell people you're trans before engaging in a relationship of any sort.
>>5876044
>rape by deception
GTFO IDJIT
>>5876271
So its active deception if a chaser hides their chaser status but if you know the person you're about to have sex with would decline if they knew you were trans its not active deception?
>>5877094
Some people would no doubt find it traumatic. They shouldn't but they will. The whole "oh no am i gay" thing is a legitimate fear for a lot of people. Their feelings are no less real because its rooted in bigotry
This thread is terrifying. If you don't disclose before sexy time then you're a horrible person. Hopefully this becomes criminalized. Maybe "rape" isn't the right word for it but there should be a punishment for tricking me into putting my mouth on a mutilated penis wound when I expect a vagina.
I think pre-op transwomen should disclose, as much for their own safety as for the 'rape by deception' aspect, but less the latter.
It's a vagina once the operation is done, and post-op women need not disclose because there's zero difference except fertility.
>>5891349
Yes, they totally should, and I am certain you would be reasonable and not do something silly, like, oh, I don't know, brutally beat them to death or something.
I don't believe it is rape by deception unless the tranny in question lies or actively hides their trans status.
>>5876253
>Why does it matter?
If it doesn't matter then there should be no problem disclosing that are trans before you engage.
>>5876282
Literally every cell of your body has the chromosomes representing your birth gender.
>>5891723
They don't determine sex though. Autosomes do. Why do you think you know better than molecular geneticists.
>>5891739
Sorry, this is basic biology. X and Y chromosomes determine sex. This is known.
Trans dude who is gay/ikes men here.
I don't feel like anyne is obligated to have sex with you for any reason and if someone turns me down because I am trans, I'm not happy about it but I respect it.
Plus, I would rather be with someone who is totally comfortable dating because they have worked through their hangups over dating a trans peson. I don't want to date or fuck someone who feels forced by society to not say anything/express his discomfort for fear of seeming not-PC.
That said, I don't think it is a pre-op trans person's obligation to disclose their downstairs situation until the offer for a sexal or romantic relationship is actually on the table. The reason for disclosing is to gauge if a partner is comfortable with the genitalia the trans person has, even if they aren't interacting with it.
If someone is post-op and their genitalia pass completely and you'll never know the difference, then they are under no obligation to disclose ever. The only reason I can see to disclose post-op is if your partner wants children and even then, you could just claim sterility.
Those are just my thoughts though.
>>5891763
I like your thoughts anon.
>>5891763
>That said, I don't think it is a pre-op trans person's obligation to disclose their downstairs situation until the offer for a sexal or romantic relationship is actually on the table. The reason for disclosing is to gauge if a partner is comfortable with the genitalia the trans person has, even if they aren't interacting with it.
>If someone is post-op and their genitalia pass completely and you'll never know the difference, then they are under no obligation to disclose ever. The only reason I can see to disclose post-op is if your partner wants children and even then, you could just claim sterility.
My thoughts exactly.
>>5891757
http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
>These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”
>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported7 deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed8 the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.
The most prestegious peer reviewed journals in the world disagree with you.
Do you want to tell me how your GED equipped you to know better than them?
>>5891282
I don't really accept the notion that either instance is really rape by deception, however there's a difference between actively lying and just neglecting to disclose. And if someone specifically says they don't want to date a tranny / chaser, that could reasonably be interpreted as them asking if you are trans, and you'd have to answer truthfully. But people should not be blamed for their partner falsely assuming that they're not trans / not a chaser.
>>5891294
Sure but I don't think we should punish people for hurting the feelings of bigots. Otherwise we'd end up with cases where people claim to be victimized for having to treat black people like humans.
>>5891714
If it doesn't matter, BOTH options are equally valid. That's literally what "doesn't matter" means.
>>5891757
Yes, it's basic biology in the sense of being the oversimplified version taught to high school sophomores. The reality is much more complex, sex determination is really controlled by a specific PART of the Y chromosome, which can sometimes be damaged or not work, or even end up on an X chromosome.
"The one thing wich makes them a woman, wich is fuck men"
Stoped watching
