Go.
I think all people have a mix of masc and fem traits, but should ID as the side they have the most traits for. This will require honest self reflection. If you have about an equal number of each, you could argue for a third gender
Could be legit, but 90 percent of them are just delusional snowflakes.
>>5541777
Nice trips
also i think SOME NonBinary genders are real
>>5541777
I think agender and bigender are probably legit, but other than those, male, and female, that's pretty much it. I think gender has more to do with the relationship between your body and how you see yourself, and if there's a disconnect (wrong genitals) then there's dysmorphia/dysphoria and I think it's safe to say that people can be averse to having both types of genitals or feel like they should have both.
>>5541777
Based on my personal experience, about 30% of them are real. I know of one AFAB person taking some hormones, binding their chest, and genuinely acting masculine/feminine in a lot of ways.
People who say "I go by she/they pronouns" are fake and should be treated as such - they're mocking a legitimate (third) gender.
>>5541881
fair point, although I'd just say "non-binary" for both bigender and agender - I think having a mix of masculine/feminine traits is the only way to be non-binary.
>I think it's safe to say that people can be averse to having both types of genitals or feel like they should have both.
I mostly agree, but I think sometimes people can have dysphoria related to secondary sex characteristics as well. And of course, social dysphoria is also necessary to be non-binary.
But I agree that neutrois/two-spirit/genderqueer tends to be bullshit.
>>5541777
It's getting to the point where "gender" doesn't mean anything besides a pronoun and even that's being called into question.
Can anyone anymore with any degree of certainty describe what makes one a certain gender besides stating it? What does saying "my gender is male" communicate?
If I say that I'm a republican that communicates very specific things about myself and my views. If we take all the trans shit on face value saying "I'm a women" means no more than "fefjisjiajoizoiqwwwqqq".
>>5541907
>f we take all the trans shit on face value saying "I'm a women" means no more than "fefjisjiajoizoiqwwwqqq".
It depends on the trans person you're talking to, really. For me, gender largely is culturally dependent; in America being a woman means wearing makeup, dresses, having closer relationships with the same sex, having a larger butt, etc. "Male" is just a bag of behaviors/body attributes, and so is "female" and then "non-binary" is someone who has a lot of feminine and a lot of masculine traits and wants a body that is halfway between male and female.
Dumb white kids ripping indigenous cultural genders out of context to justify running away from internalized misogyny/misandry instead of facing it like a grownup. Also claiming to be trans is a great way to get attention, pity points, an instant support group and more leeway to act like a fuckwipe. ("That was an asshole thing to say but oh the poor thing, he's trans, it must be so hard, I better go easy on him.") It's the perfect storm.
>>5541777
I think some are legitimate, but a lot of fuckholes use it to be special
My best friend of 10 years is incredibly uncomfortable with any sex characteristic and with being referred to as either sex. They're lucky in that they could look like either (a bit angular in the face, and pretty tall, above average for female (they're dfab) and about average for a short dude) but they feel bad about people seeing them and being confused, even though they're glad that confusion causes people to forego reference to their gender. It beats them up inside to know they're making people uncomfortable in order to be comfortable themselves, but don't know how to fix that. And I'm not talking that they're uncomfortable as in "I don't really like boobs lol" I'm talking full on depression and shit at the fact that their body is so uncomfortable for them. In that case, I feel they're justified in not wanting to fall back to either male or female.
And then in comparison there's a "friend" of mine who is your stereotypical tumblrite. She's very into dressing in femme clothing and touting how proud of being female she is but one day went "omg I went to a pride parade and these people called me 'they'.. It felt rly nice.. I think I'm?? A demigirl??? !! Omg.. I'm trans. I'm trans all along omg I'm a nonbinary girl.. She/they pronouns aaa omg"
Almost word for word. People like her piss me off because they don't have any real adverse feelings to their birth sex and then they start to fetishize the idea of being the ~Elusive Trans~ or being ~Oppressed~ by all the ~Cis Assholes~ who don't realize just by looking that they're ~A Nonbinary Queen!!!~ and it cheapens the idea for everyone to the point almost no one knows what the fuck it actually is anymore other than just "this vague feeling I have sometimes..." and they want to be trans so they're COOL among their peers.
Tl;Dr fuckheads following a fad make it harder for people who could actually be genuinely considered nonbinary
>>5542004
>Tl;Dr fuckheads following a fad make it harder for people who could actually be genuinely considered nonbinary
so much this
>>5541898
You forgot ambigender
>>5541777
Consider pic related. Some people choose gender expressions, and may even choose gender identities, that are between the theoretical extremes "male" and "female". I am OK with this; to each their own and as long as they're happy I'm cool. There are also some positive side effects of this, such as making us question gender norms and stereotypes. However, I doubt most of these people are transgendered in the real, biological/neurological sense - i.e. when their brain is observably different. I think they choose a different identify for personal, ideological or even aesthetic reasons. Like I said I'm mostly fine with this, but I sometimes think the whole tumblresque bullshit of it overshadows and marginalises actual transpeople and their real struggles - struggles they did not choose but where born with.
oh god when did this board turn into tumblr
>>5541777
If by gender you are referring to the actual definition; "masculine or feminine" sure. there are manly women, feminine men and people in between. but i don't call them "non-binary" i call them what they've always been, dykes, tomboys, femboys and faggots. men who prefer to take feminine roles in life, women who fuck women and work in construction, people who don't like rigid gender roles at all.
But these people are all just men and women, they aren't in between the sexes in any way, they just prefer to express their gender differently than "the binary" and demand special snowflake treatment.
they don't have ambiguous genitalia, they don't have mosaic genetics, or differing chromosomes, their brain structures don't differ at all from normal men and women. I don't know why they are talking about it at all, its a non issue, no one cares if you have a pussy and want to wear trucker hats.
>>5542004
>my friend
>>5541928
>being a woman means wearing makeup, dresses, having closer relationships with the same sex, having a larger butt, etc.
There are men who do/have all those things
>"non-binary" is someone who has a lot of feminine and a lot of masculine traits and wants a body that is halfway between male and female.
There are people like that who still identify as male/female.
>>5542004
I don't understand how someone can have such strong feelings about not identifying with either sex. It's like being militantly agnostic or something.
>>5542091
yeah basically every non-binary gender other than "non-binary" is horseshit.
>>5541777
I think it's a load of shit, but I don't treat them bad for it and usually respect their made-up pronouns even though I think it's dumb because there's no point being a dick over it. I'm trans, I want the other body. Pretty simple shit, you exist as a conscious species that's pretty evenly split down the middle of two different genders, then it makes sense for there to be the occasional mix-up, where one person wants and strongly identifies with the body they didn't get, and in a world where we have the means to fix that problem there's no real reason not to. But non-binary doesn't make sense to me. It reminds me of a time when I was little and started crying because my mom told me I could never be a super saiyan, it's not just "I want the other body" it's: "I want the other body. No, not that one, the one that doesn't real"
That said I'm not saying NB don't have their own problems. I'm of the opinion they're mostly attention seeking kids who have been told they need to be a minority to be special and worth something, super in denial/confused trannies, or people who are legitimately crazy. So I've got a bit of sympathy for them.
>>5542142
>Like I said I'm mostly fine with this, but I sometimes think the whole tumblresque bullshit of it overshadows and marginalises actual transpeople and their real struggles
yeah, basically. I'm binary mtf (I support real non-binary people) and the of people who think "now even TRANS people are oppressing me because they don't think demigirl is real!!" piss me the fuck off. Being mtf isn't the worst thing in the world, but like I have real problems because of it.
>>5542213
>There are men who do/have all those things
yes, but even drag queens still have masculine characteristics (making dick jokes, etc.). You have to look at the whole picture.
>There are people like that who still identify as male/female.
There are masculine women (dykes) but that doesn't mean that they're really 50% male - butch women who try to be men (one wrote a book about this) end up really unhappy and realize they're more feminine than they thought.
>>5542218
>try being a man
>dysphoria
>try being a woman
>dysphoria
If you get dysphoria from not being "in the middle" then you're non-binary.
>>5542258
I said that, because you're obviously talking about yourself
Just as fair as any other denomination for gender, sexulity ect.
You can't control everyone's construction of their identities.
>>5542004
Too true. Consider also the economic and physical price to be paid; if you are "nonbinary" you get a new haircut and some new clothes and your new identity is done. If you are trans, oh boy! Get ready for expensive therapy and medicine, even more expensive and invasive surgery, and years and years of work to just not want to kill yourself.
>>5542257
At some point the struggle for social justice, which was once upon a time a serious thing people didn't use as a joke, took a wrong turn. It abandoned a materialist analysis of society, also known as "using your common fucking sense and not pretending like reality doesn't exist", in favour of a kind of feelings-based, idealist identity politics.
Once you bring sweet ol' reality back you see that transwomen are oppressed because of actual, REAL shit that happens, such as all the violence, economic hardship, discrimination, etc. and not because someone uses the wrong pronouns or they "feel" that way.
tl;dr nonbinaries are like if upper middle-class hipster kids dressed up as welsh miners and seriously believed that this made them downtrodden like said welsh miners under Thatcher.
>>5542241
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxK_nA2iVXw
>>5542297
i can only assume you're pro otherkin then
>>5542329
>otherkin
I'm not very familiar with the subject, wich means it's none of my business being "against" or "pro" it.
If this is the sort of conscience someone has about themselves, me being "pro" or "against" it makes no difference.
>>5542327
>Once you bring sweet ol' reality back you see that transwomen are oppressed because of actual, REAL shit that happens, such as all the violence, economic hardship, discrimination, etc. and not because someone uses the wrong pronouns or they "feel" that way.
>tl;dr nonbinaries are like if upper middle-class hipster kids dressed up as welsh miners and seriously believed that this made them downtrodden like said welsh miners under Thatcher.
idk I mean I think it's possible to be non-binary but I guess that's beside the point. I don't think the feelings-based, idealist stuff is the root of it, it's more identity politics. And then of course when you call someone out for having "she/they" pronouns they'll say "even the lgbt community rejected me!!! Just like bisexuals!"
>>5542354
Yes, but the fact that they consider themselves as oppressed as transgender people is offensive and ridiculous.
>>5542258
No, but I mean, how? What exactly is it they are so upset about? What kind of dysphoria are they experiencing? Like, I get feeling dysphoric about being physically female when you feel you should be physically male etc, but how can you feel dysphoric about not being physically something that doesn't really exist in nature except through freak fuck ups? It's like those people who desperately wish they had a tail, or only one arm. There are probably some other underlying mental issues there, rather than just a gender identity thing.
I'm non-binary myself, and I don't feel either male or female at all. That said, I don't really give a fuck how people view me or the pronouns they refer to me as (as long as they don't use bullshit made up tumblr pronouns). I don't get the need to be a special snowflake about it.
>>5542327
>that tl;dr
A bunch of 16 year olds with technicolor hair putting on miner costumes they scavenged from a Party City dumpster, smearing dirt on each other's faces to help them "pass."
I am personally very skeptical of them. There is no real evidence of them, pretty much all of the scientific evidence for trans identities all deal with binary identities. If non binary was actually a thing, I think we'd have found out by now.
I don't actually think that all of them are attention seeking Tumblr kids. I think many of them are just people, both cis and trans, who feel constrained by gender roles and are looking for a way to validate their feelings.
>>5542381
my point was the the identity-politics IS feelings based; as in you're trans or non-binary or whatever because you "feel" a certain way and decide you want people to use certain pronouns, not because your brain is literally wired differently and you have different social situation to deal with. But yes I feel everyone accepts those special snowflakes because they don't want to deal with rejecting them and them flipping out over it.
> I think it's possible to be non-binary
sure sure, i'm just thinking of that specific person who kinda WANTS to be oppressed because it's the cool thing to do, so they invent some shit? i mean if someone doesn't feel like either gender or wants to express themselves in a "wierd" way, fine go for it, more power to you. But having rainbow colored hair and using "xir" pronouns or whatever doesn't make you oppressed
>>5542393
lol I imagined it just like that put couldn't put it into words... if this actually happens I might kill myself. others may die also, i think i'll be playing it by the ear
>>5542390
>No, but I mean, how? What exactly is it they are so upset about? What kind of dysphoria are they experiencing? Like, I get feeling dysphoric about being physically female when you feel you should be physically male etc, but how can you feel dysphoric about not being physically something that doesn't really exist in nature except through freak fuck ups? It's like those people who desperately wish they had a tail, or only one arm. There are probably some other underlying mental issues there, rather than just a gender identity thing.
Dysphoria isn't just "wanting to be the opposite sex", there's a flip side to it which is "not wanting to be the sex you are". So I imagine it's possible to feel dysphoric towards the sex you're born as, without wanting to be the opposite sex.
>>5542460
>my point was the the identity-politics IS feelings based; as in you're trans or non-binary or whatever because you "feel" a certain way and decide you want people to use certain pronouns, not because your brain is literally wired differently and you have different social situation to deal with. But yes I feel everyone accepts those special snowflakes because they don't want to deal with rejecting them and them flipping out over it.
yeah ok I see your point.
>i'm just thinking of that specific person who kinda WANTS to be oppressed because it's the cool thing to do, so they invent some shit?
Oh yeah, it's definitely a thing. I'm not sure why. Maybe because Americans like underdogs. Do these people exist in Austria? France? I'm kind of curious now.
>>5541777
you only need one other option recognised for official documents
"Other"
"Third"
"Non-Binary"
or the decidedly more jarring
"X"
If people want to call themselves a genderfluid demi-girl and demand people use personal pronouns then sure, in their own time and if they stay away from me, but I've seen some people campaign for governments to allow people to have whatever nonsense string of words they want recognised officially and written on their passports and such.
No.
And anyone who wants to officially be acknowledged as a third gender as such should still have to go through the same medical and bureaucratic nightmare to prove they're dysphoric and have taken steps to live as other gender first.
I'd happily deal with that red tape if it meant I wasn't sharing bedspace with these art grad snowflakes.
Look at India for example. Hijra can now identify as third gender but only after castration I believe (because what sane non-dysphoric people would chop their balls off for the privilege of identifying as an outcast?)
>>5542549
>'Ive seen some people campaign for governments to allow people to have whatever nonsense string of words they want recognised officially and written on their passports and such.
>No.
>And anyone who wants to officially be acknowledged as a third gender as such should still have to go through the same medical and bureaucratic nightmare to prove they're dysphoric and have taken steps to live as other gender first.
Jesus Christ, really? I didn't think they took their delusions far enough to advocating for "demigirl" as an actual gender.
By the way, anon? How is your journey going? Do you have any legal recognition of your gender?
>>5542573
I wish the UK had the same cultural precedent that led to the Hijra being recognised. Unfortunately no they have no provision for a blanket third gender to be recognised as of now.
Legal recognition isn't a priority though, and pronouns even less so. I'm a pronoun whore honestly, you can use any as long as it's not "it" and as long as you're not clearly choosing the pronoun you use to piss me off or dehumanize me.
I honestly feel that my dysphoria has the same... well, same basis as that for binary trans people, only through a myriad of other complicated factors including life experience, I feel it's no good pretending I could live indistinguishably from a cis woman.
I'm not trying to be a cis woman. I'm just trying to be me.
>>5542600
>Legal recognition isn't a priority though, and pronouns even less so. I'm a pronoun whore honestly, you can use any as long as it's not "it" and as long as you're not clearly choosing the pronoun you use to piss me off or dehumanize me.
yeah ok that makes sense. I mean, it's a problem if your documents say the wrong gender, but I guess if it says "non-binary" then you'll get even weirder looks anyways.
>I honestly feel that my dysphoria has the same... well, same basis as that for binary trans people
that makes sense.
>>5542606
One example I can think where it would help is when you're out and about and some tactless kid asks you or their parent if you're a boy or a girl, instead of having to shrug them off with a "well, it's complicated", you could just say neither. And the people who say "don't be silly you're either a boy or a girl there's no in between" could finally be rebuked.
>>5542512
I think it's because they feel uncomfortable with learning that there are lots of real problems in the world and that they, as middle-class white cisgendered citizens of a first world nation, are kinda immunue from most of them. Even being gay is pretty OK nowadays in most western nations. So, being they are selfish and attention-seeking, they try to pass themselves as oppressed themselves (rather than use their privilege to help those in actual need).
And yes, there's TONS on them in Europe. I'm from Sweden, and they're everywhere... worst part is you CANNOT call them out because even in lgbt groups they'll be a sizable minority at least. I even get the feeling everyone actually accepts them here, and doesn't just tolerate them... fucking swedes are so meek sometimes.
>tfw I can't march in regular pride parade cause I don't want to support their bs
>tfw join black block and find momentary relief
>tfw the fuckers are in the black block the following year
>tfw stay home and play vidya the year after that
>>5542615
Yeah, but there would still be more of a social component than legal, right? I mean flashing your ID at everyone you see is a bit ridiculous.
>>5542628
>Even being gay is pretty OK nowadays
Yeah that's true. I've definitely seen the "she/they pronouns please!" in lesbian/bi women. I think their identity gets tangled up in the oppression because of how their parents react, and then they go to college and they need something new.
>And yes, there's TONS on them in Europe. I'm from Sweden, and they're everywhere... worst part is you CANNOT call them out because even in lgbt groups they'll be a sizable minority at least. I even get the feeling everyone actually accepts them here, and doesn't just tolerate them... fucking swedes are so meek sometimes.
That's ridiculous. They're getting traction in the US to some extent, but it's because people can't be bothered to oppose them, as you said.
>>5542628
I met a non white nonbinary a while ago. But they probably learned it from the other white nonbinary and wants to give her the D ;)
>>5542644
the legal component would set a solid precedent for the social heel-draggers to get over it.
>>5542647
non-white nonbinaries have been around for ages, from the two-spirit to the hijra.
>but the hijra are just MtF
yes but culturally it has always been recognised that as much as their gender identity and expression might be feminine, they are still intrinsically biologically different from cis women in a way that impacts the gender roles that they can uphold, so they have been treated as entirely distinct.
this might come across as really insensitive to MtFs whose goal is to pass and be as indistinguishable from cis as possible, but the bottom line is you're not cis, and the fact that you have grown up trans has as much bearing on your life experience and who you are as a person as being a woman does.
the "what if you could click your fingers and you will have been a cis girl all along" thought experiments are cute and all and yes i would do that and i'm sure if i were born cis i would be happier, but i also wouldn't be me. i can't ignore that. to erase my past as an assigned male would be as dishonest to myself as continuing to live as one would have been.
>>5542670
>this might come across as really insensitive to MtFs whose goal is to pass and be as indistinguishable from cis as possible, but the bottom line is you're not cis, and the fact that you have grown up trans has as much bearing on your life experience and who you are as a person as being a woman does.
>the "what if you could click your fingers and you will have been a cis girl all along" thought experiments are cute and all and yes i would do that and i'm sure if i were born cis i would be happier, but i also wouldn't be me. i can't ignore that. to erase my past as an assigned male would be as dishonest to myself as continuing to live as one would have been.
I mean, yeah I'm different from cis girls but that mostly manifests itself as me being interested in math.
Idk I think if you transition young enough, you really can change things. I'm still different, but the most important parts of being a woman are still there (at least, age 21. when my friends start giving birth it will be a whole other mess)
>>5542647
Well obv there are, as people have pointed out, real nonbinaries who either have disphoria against their gender of birth without wanting to be the other gender, or are trans and just want to present in a way that goes against norms. And that's cool. Not all are tumblerina-snowflakes. And even the snowflakes are not bad people per se, just a bit annoying at times.
>>5542694
>even the snowflakes are not bad people per se, just a bit annoying at times.
They can be pretty obnoxious if you're trans. I wanted to join trans groups on campus, but none of them had actual trans people discussing their problems, it was just people whining about professors misusing their pronouns or whatever.
>>5542690
also to add on to my point here, I don't think Hjiras are all mtfs, but I'm sure some of them would be. Drag queens in the 1960s sometimes turned into trans women, and sometimes didn't. It's broad category I think.
>>5541777
> Memegender
Is Mayonnaise binary?
Theoretically not impossible, but needs more non-biased/non-political agenda research done on the topic
Also you should have to be dx'd as non-binary trans to change any legal documentation. Otherwise tumblrinas and otherkin will create 100001 legal genders just to be edgy.
Gatekeeping is needed so long as people who call mayonnaise a gender exist.
>>5541777
They don't exist. Special snowflake bullshit. Just because you like to dress up like a girl sometimes or vice versa doesn't make you gender fluid or whatever other made up tumblr shit is popular now addays.
I think more research needs to be done, but my $0.02 is that 'non-binary' people are either confused trans people (part of the gender binary), or people who are part of the gender binary that are doing it for political reasons (SMASH THE PATRIARCHY, etc.).
When I first heard of trans stuff, I looked into it and thought about it... and decided I was maybe genderfluid. After all, dysphoria came and went, and my hobbies were stereotypically male. It made sense to me to call myself 'genderfluid', because I was unsure of myself. After a lot of soul searching, thinking, and reading, I realised something: I'm not genderfluid. I felt female on the inside, and the dysphoria only came and went because I usually had more pressing matters to worry about. My hobbies and interests were 'stereotypically male', but I also had female friends who had the same interests. My using them as an excuse to be unsure of myself was simply me being sexist. Now that I've transitioned, I know I wasn't genderfluid... I was just confused, and I think that's what a lot of 'non-binary' people are. They're confused trans people who haven't figured out what's actually going on.
The political non-binary people think being trans is about GENDER ROLES, not GENDER. I don't think these people are trans, though. They're just special snowflakes attempting to smash the patriarchy. They cause problems, too, because they're trying to reframe the difficulties of being trans (dysphoria) as a problem with society (gender roles), which is NOT the case.
Genderfluid as in intersex or any other variation of actual, biologial/neurological trans status - Cool, you do you.
Genderfluid as in "fuck social norms and gender stereotypes, I'll express myself however I want and have whatever hobbies I like!" - OK, good for you, nice to see people doing their own thing.
Genderfluid as a political tool against aformentioned norms and stereotypes - OK I see what you're doing but I don't approve of 'lifestyle politics' personally since it detracts from actual political struggle. Just don't annoy the actual transpeople too much, kthanxbyfuckoff.
Genderfluid as in "LOOK AT MY BLUE AND PINK HAIR!! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!! Use correct pronouns! I'm so OPPRESSED... don't you agree, actual transperson fearing for their life and a small fortune in debt for therapy/mones/surgery?" - FYAD please.
>>5541898
>And of course, social dysphoria is also necessary to be non-binary.
What about if you have crippling physical dysphoria but zero social dysphoria?
Semen is a genderfluid
I'm pretty ok with my body. I want more muscles and a more defined jawline and a deeper voice. I hate being told I'm beautiful or pretty or cute. I fucking hate when dudes try to hold stuff for me or open doors. I have been seriously considering T for a few months now.
But I'm SCARED PISSLESS. It costs so much money and so much time, what if I'm not happy? What if I give up things I never realized I wanted? What will I tell my parents? What will I tell my friends? My boss? My co-workers?
I'm much happier in this nice, safe gray zone.
