Please explain to me why trans women here are so anti-feminism.
They seem to be the most vulnerable group of society who are hit with both misogyny and transphobia, yet they insult the people trying to make it better?
I don't understand.
To attract mates they have to separate themselves from pesky cis women that are spouting feminism, this way they can appear as a package more desirable.
>>5384634
We disagree with TERFs who hate our guts and call us men but I'm not anti-feminism at all, I didn't think many were.
Because Feminism is an anti-free speech marxist ideology.
>>5384634
Most branches of feminism claim that gender is a social construct which leads to the conclusion that we choose to be this way, that we choose to suffer (which we do not).
Other branches of feminism claim that you are born with your gender, but it is tied to your sex, so we are not mtfs for them, but pretending to be a woman man rapists.
None of these options are ok for me personally, and for most not delusional mtfs too. So yeah, I say to hell with feminism.
>>5384660
And also this. Socialism in any form just worsens things up.
>>5384634
Ignoring repression strategies and the social circles they lead one to engage with:
Trans outreach from branches of feminism could really stand to happen. Most times a trans woman's first brush with feminist movements after they come out is going to be the larger of two branches that actively care about trans people. The "Gender Critical Feminists", a group that will act against their own interests if only it means a slight chance to hurt, exclude, or delegitimize a trans person. The other group, Transfeminists, are so small it's a wonder anyone runs into them at all.
Since the Gender Crits are so keen to harm trans people, they wind up making a mockery of their parent ideology and their larger movement.
"Dismantle gender" transforms from opposing the rigid, forceful, and punishing systems by which gender expression and identification are enforced by society into opposing anyone who identifies with a gender (that you do not approve of). Radfems weren't flawless when they still existed, but their memory deserves better than this bastardization.
But yeah, first impressions count for a lot, and the first time a trans person encounters feminism, they're likely to meet an enemy, not a friend.
Because "feminism" is bullshit.
>>5384703
>The "Gender Critical Feminists", a group that will act against their own interests if only it means a slight chance to hurt, exclude, or delegitimize a trans person.
That's a pretty delusional post especially the greentext part.
>2015
>still using labels
because it's the internet lol
>>5384723
Nah.
>>5384634
>>5384723
Their working with the far right campaigns in the states to portray trans as child raping monsters, singing praises to politicians who do so and doing everything they can to ban our medicine says so. >>5376407 And >>5383684 are their doing.
It's like asking Jews why they're not into nazism.
>>5384729
Feminism isn't a label, it's a movement.
>>5384765
God. Can I register this board as "hopeless"?
>>5384634
>explain why all ___ are x!
Please make some better bait.
>>5384772
Seriously, gc sites and groups were actively lobbying against Hero and helped long against it by telling the public about lgbt-monsters who were coming to rape societies women and children.
And you know, I used to be in the left and was involved with feminism in the past and still belive in some libfem ideology, but knowing the whole movement has become some sort of national socialism that uses trans as convenient boogiemen is enough to give pause. Even the ones who claim not to hate lgbt won't do a thing to stop their kin.
>>5384772
I mean I think after watching the movement try and turn them into monsters and doing all they can to spread moral panics against lgbt and generally acting in an indistinguishable manner from far right groups most people want nothing to do with them.
>>5384703
This basically
I privately identify as a feminist but I really struggle to admit it publicly. It is not very uncommon for feminism to just shit on trans people
>>5384779
If I wanted to fish here I'd make another of those threads saying that "transsexuals are delusionals" or whatever.
I wanted to get actual answers on how the lowest class people can hate a movement that helps them, but just look at the answers. They're more worried on how a few people define "gender" than about discrimination in the work place, violence, domestic abuse, etc etc.
You see, being one of the people who usually defends trans in those actual troll threads, it's dishearting to see that they don't give a shit about their own situation after transition. If you don't give a shit, why should society?
>>5384788
Is this a new version of red pillers?
>>5384964
>>5384634
>>5384723
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/drop-the-t/
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/hero/
Your doing everything you can and openly working with the far right to convince the world transsexuals are rapist pedophiles out to rape women and children doesn't count as help.
A movment that seeks power by turning minorites into boogie men can't ever be just.
Come back and talk to us when you aren't pushing stuff like >>5383684.
>>5384964
Oh sorry, did we just lost an ALLY by not agreeing to his ideology? Are we worthy of your help only if we think the same way?
>how the lowest class people can hate a movement that helps them
Here's your mistake - feminism did nothing to help us. Farewell, ally.
>>5384964
Yeah it is fishing.
You did nothing to support your claim that all or even most trans ARE anti-feminist.
>They're more worried on how a few people define "gender" than about discrimination in the work place, violence, domestic abuse, etc etc
More claims without any basis.
Discrimination in the work place, violence, domestic abuse, etc etc are all issues that effect trans people too and that they try to speak out about and to work against but most people don't care what trannies think or want.
You've just created some strawman based on your personal feelings and assumptions and maybe a few anecdotes.
The one exception where trans people are generally anti-feminist is against a specific small branch of feminism left over from the second wave, TERFs who deny trans identities and want to remove them from existence and who regularly team up with the conservative right to demonize and scapegoat trans as some boogieman to gain support and fulfill that agenda like when they lobbied (and continue to do so) to get trans healthcare and insurance coverage removed.
>>5385123
Pushing trans as the vilans or apostates of feminism is an easy way to justify taking away their rights.
Well...the reason why trans women face such an inordinate amount of violence is because they are men.
Plus, advocating Feminism at this point is just advocating for further social disintegration. It doesn't make sense to support such a toxic movement.
Because feminists are the ones hurting their image.
>>5384634
4chan in general is overly anti-feminist.
A lot of people just want to stir up shit, I think a lot of those people aren't even trans women, just shitposters.
Also a lot of the really major stuff, people here won't have to deal with. They may be trans and women which will usually fuck you over but the general culture around this website is to take the "lock myself in my room and hide away from it" approach. They don't deal with unemployment and shit because they don't even try to get employed in the first place, they just assume it will go wrong and don't even try. There's a certain kind of culture here which weirdly glorifies this kind of lifestyle.
>>5384634
Not trans, gay liberal that votes in favor of nearly every single women's issue, just tired of dealing with feminists using their inane ideologies to fuck with well meaning people's heads.
I got called a misogynist for refusing to miss gender an MtF acquaintance, and then I later had to comfort an FtM (that was a feminist activist) friend that after he came out to his feminist sisters and brothers was accused of being an extra privileged gender traitor.
>>5384634
Why should trans women be pro feminism? What does stating they are the most vulnerable in society have to do with feminism? When will the legislative religion of peace die.
I don't think most people are against whatever feminism used to be, like majority of Western people are disgusted how women are treated in Saudi-Arabia because it goes against our views of humanitarian rights
Modern feminism in first world countries is just extremism and spreads hate speech instead equality, no one likes extremists
>>5385151
>the reason why trans women face such an inordinate amount of violence is because they are men.
This. Exactly. It's not misogyny that they face. It's a "get back in your fucking place". The reason people don't care about ftm's is because they are lowering themselves to the worthless grunt position.
>>5384964
You're making a really, really big assumption here when you talk about all the post-transition benefits offered by feminism. The cold truth is that a lot of us are never going to be in any position to reap the benefits of feminism.
Maybe one day feminism will expand to include the experience of becoming a woman along with the experience of being a woman; when that day comes, I'll give feminism a second chance. Until that day comes, feminists are well-meaning bystanders at best -- not allies.
>>5384964
>feminism
>helping trans people
History greatly disagrees. It's like expecting anarchists to trust marxists.
>>5384634
>yet they insult the people trying to make it better?
Here's the sticking point. Most feminists are making things worse for everyone and have no interest in equality, at least in the West. It's all just status signaling and people trying to one-up each other at being the most "morally righteous" by tearing other "privileged" groups down.
I do feel bad for those feminists who aren't complete twats, but they could really stand to distance themselves from the moral outragists that have consumed most of their movement.
>>5384634
Because they ruined our lives.
If it wasn't for feminism, trans rights, awareness, and understanding would've continued to develop, and likely, by the 1990, it'd have been fairly accepted, and definitely by 2000.
But, since feminism did exist, our rights were ruined, and "conversion" therapy started being pushed, as well as awareness and understanding withdrew pretty much completely.
If you're born before 2000, you've probably been damaged by the feminists, and almost everyone that was born before 1995 was severely damaged by feminism.
tl;dr: Feminism is anti-trans, and the reason why people didn't get to transition when they were 12, or younger.
>>5384672
No, socialism makes a country good.
Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, all are good countries to live in, and it's because there's socialism in the politics.
>>5384723
Most are gender critical feminists, even in feminist circles that are against "transphobia", will voice their gender critical and transphobic opinions.
>Trans women are trans, or male women
>Same goes for intersex women, they're intersex, not female.
>Nothing wrong with saying that
>Gets all the agreement from the other feminists
>>5386201
Don't forget them then using that to argue that transsexuals are out to rape women and children and pose an inherent grave risk. You've even got high ranking members or major parties like Labour saying so.
Never mind the point of transition is to alter biology and sex traits and that studies conclusively prove that transsexuals aren't a risk. They're still gonna work with the right to push shit like >>5383684.
You'll be hard pressed to find groups that do as much damage as this.
I'm a tranny and feminist. I just hide the label because it has become a pretty toxic label. I think lots of trans girls are like that.
Anyways, it's the beliefs that matter, not the labels. At least for me, as I passed more and more trans issues became generally less important than womens issues. I think any trans girl will be pretty similar, since we weren't trained to accept our lot in life since birth, and want to fight the shitty things that happen to us.
People who socialize as males are used to not complaining all the time even when they're actually being oppressed.
>>5386322
>From these boards one would think that feminists are horrible, man-hating monsters when they literally just want equal rights.
Not for trans women they don't
>>5386374
Funny coming from the group that states gay sex and people taking estrogen somehow rapes the bodies of women.
Please, go ahead and tell me how lgbt people living their lives somehow hurts women.
>>5384641
Came here to say this. It's the indirect male version of saying "I'm not like other girls"
>>5386455
>hormones + surgery
>male
Anon...
>>5384634
But I am a trans woman who is a feminist. I just don't usually bring it up because the anti-feminist trannies here are a special breed of autism, the likes of which I'd rather not converse with.
>>5386556
same lmao
>>5386556
>anime pic
>Calls other autistic
>>5386322
In first world countries, equality has been reached. Women can vote, participate in politics, get education in whatever they want and in general decide what they do with their own lives. With this kind of liberty also comes the responsibility, so you can't play the victim anymore. We can't just talk about women's rights anymore it's just humanitarian rights now because woman is equal to man.
In developing countries, I think it's important to have quotas for women as they aren't quite still there.
If feminists don't like trans women because they've been "socialized male," wouldn't helping resocialize trans women create a win-win scenario?
>>5386423
>mfw reading that pure delusion
>>5386556
>if you don't agree with me, you're literally retarded
OK
>>5386556
Let me guess: You're a transbian
>>5386556
Watching Card Captor Sakura as a kid, wishing I could wear cute outfits like that, not giving a fuck to the DBZ bandwagon. Good times.
>>5386718
Yeah, they can, doesn't means they will.
The amount of women in the congress is small, male dominated careers such as technology and science are still hostile to women, they still face domestic abuse with little to no support from society and can't even have full control of their own bodies (as evidenced by "pro lifers").
Yes we've progressed but we're far from actual equality.
>>5384634
Because modern feminism is silly as fuck and totally insane and old feminism is trans exclusionary. Its all bullshit and has no bearing in real life.
>>5386179
>Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, all are good countries to live in
>Sweden
It won't be a good country to live in by the end of the next decade, anon.
>>5386201
>Trans women are trans, or male women
>Trans women are [biologically] male
How can anyone argue with this? I agree with this 100% and this comes from a tranny. You must be a biologically ignorant mouthbreathing retard to believe otherwise.
>b-but muh pink polkadot bow-embellished ladybrain
>>5386322
>when they literally just want equal rights.
Then why are they so militant on stopping equivalent Men's Rights Groups or discussions of men's issues from forming on college campuses?
>>5386990
>This post was brought to you by a fetishistic dude with a 50s housewife complex
>>5384634
>>5387023
The issue is that you can't really define what a biological male or female is, there's always those rare cases where the chromosomes or the hormones or the brain doesn't match up.
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome
>>5387036
miss cock is best cock
>>5387036
I didn't post that on this board, I was just joking around on /b/, stop trying to bring that shit up every second you fucking creep.
>>5387132
Kayla, everything about you is one big joke. You're an unpassable, AGP hon.
Your mom doesn't beat you enough.
>>5387023
Hey, if you want to ban medical treatment and be one of those bearded men in tumblr then go right ahead.
Everyone else is going alter their bodies' sexual characteristics.
>>5387023
>agp 2d fetishist
>won't go on hormones because it keeps him from boners
Ayy
>>5386718
>quotas for women
Why? Why are you putting unqualified and undeserving women in positions that they could've gotten with the same amount of effort men put in?
>>5386952
>The amount of women in the congress is small
The amount of black men in congress is small, what's your point? Majority voters are women, are you saying women can't vote for candidates unless vagina?
>male dominated careers such as technology and science are still hostile to women
Outright lie, there are endless initiatives as I was helping my sister to apply to college literally begging women to go into STEM fields, even a preference for women who may have families.
>they still face domestic abuse with little to no support from society
You're talking about USA right, the same country that went on a man hunt for college campus men on a false rape accusation? The same country right?
> can't even have full control of their own bodies (as evidenced by "pro lifers").
Wow what a liberal-tastic response, there are people who view the fetus as a baby a human and view it's termination as death. Disagree as much as you want but that is the actual argument.
>>5386952
>they still face domestic abuse with little to no support from society
Okay, now what kind of support do you think male victims of domestic abuse get by comparison? That is not a gender-specific issue.
>>5387331
The "what about the men" misdirection is pretty old.
>>5387365
The "but think about the women!" action is equally annoying.
The trans feminists that exist are all like:
>my dick is female
>femininity is awesome
>fund my sperm banking/transition/whatever
>don't make fun of men in dresses or dicks
>catcalling makes me feel like a woman
>lesbians are bigots or fetishists if they like pussy but not dick
>chasers should stick up for us
Do they even need feminism? Mostly they just fuck it up, from my point of view. There is barely any attention given to job discrimination or anything remotely serious.
>>5387132
>he thinks that a fetishistic masculine man like him is in any position to call anyone a creep
lol
>>5387175
>they think hormones can stop boners
lol, nice tranny myth no #664 you got there little buddy
>>5387044
But this really doesn't matter. Even if you wanted to argue that the definitions cannot be extremely precisely defined because there are rare .01% exceptions(which is silly), that comes back to the ol' continuum fallacy, which would essentially argue that all language is useless because none of it is precise/all of it is relative or has some innate bearing. We have general definitions for what constitutes a "human", and yet not all human beings adhere to it.
Most all people would agree that sex can almost universally be determined by chromosomes. But if you want to be more accurate, you can say that at birth you are essentially born with a pair of genitals, and after that point you are generally that sex(or in rare cases, intersex). Is that a formal precise scientific definition? No.
But people do not change their sexual development after that point. Once you actually develop your primary sexual characteristics, that is it. It's not possible to change it. There are zero exceptions to this. Once you have the male or female blueprint, it's final in humans. You can take hormones and alter the course for your secondary sexual characteristics developing, but that does not change your sex, just slightly alters your appearance.
In short, generally when people refer to male and female, they are referring to the blueprint for your development after primary sexual characteristics have been determined. In 99.99% of cases, this is accurately determined by chromosomes, so it's easier to just say that chromosomes determine sex since it's very rare that they do not.
Sex as a concept is generally perceived by chromosomes, sex characteristics, and birth genitals/biology.
>>5387425
Essentially, what you're saying.
People with down syndrome are not human, and people who are missing limbs are not human, because those go against some of the definitions we have.
>>5387436
I'm not even that anon and I'm struggling hard to see where you got that answer.
>>5387365
And your complete inability to answer that question speaks volumes, as always.
Now, there used to be a time where I wouldn't engage in that kind of "misdirection". But since feminists have grown increasingly controlling and insistent that there don't need to be movements for men's issues because "feminism helps both genders!", you can damn well better believe I'll ask you what you fuckers plan to do to help men that isn't just a thinly veiled war on masculinity.
>>5384634
cis women are not us
they are privileged, and besides, they dont want to accept us among them
>>5387478
>not us
true
>privileged
not true
>besides, they dont want to accept us among them
absolutely true, good job.
>>5387451
Anon is basically saying that you have to ignore the people that don't conform to your made up definition.
Which means we have to ignore people with downsyndrome, since they don't have as many chromosomes as we say humans have. And people missing limbs don't fit into when we say that humans have 2 arms and 2 legs, etc.
>>5387157
Look, I don't give a shit about what you believe or think is right but these are not my beliefs so stop putting words in my mouth.
I said trans women are male, period. I did not imply that trans people should be rejected hormones just like biological women shouldn't be rejected birth control pills from the state. Everyone is free to do what they think is best for their life but in the end of the day we are not females and these are hard facts like the people who produce sperm are called males and people who produce ova females and this not up to any debate unless you also want to dispute that the sun is hot and sky blue.
Most of us MAAB trans people going through hormonal treatment end up biological asexuals at best but never females and it's sad some people still can't accept this reality.
>>5387501
You're delusional if you think women aren't privileged.
>>5387044
If you have a dick you're male. There's no reason to believe otherwise. No male naturally turns into a female, they have to go on HRT to get that appearance. Humans are a dimorphic species.
>>5387436
Erh, I think you took a logical wrong turn somewhere.
If anything, you're again highlighting the problem with engaging in the continuum fallacy(""human" doesn't exist because not every person born meets its criteria!").
By this argument, you could argue that all human language is null because none of it is precise. You're essentially making the argument that since "woman" is not absolutely precisely defined, that all matter and things in the universe can be a "woman". By that same argument, all colors are red.
See the problem?
>>5387425
>chromosomes
They don't though
http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
>These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”
>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported7 deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed8 the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.
Chromosomes have been discredited as the means for sex development since classical genetics gave way to molecular genetics.
It's gene transcription and hormones. Which both happen to be altered by medical intervention.
You're demanding that we can't take science into consideration because it contradicts your fundamentalism.
>>5387436
Literally said:
>Even if you wanted to argue that the definitions cannot be extremely precisely defined because there are rare .01% exceptions(which is silly), that comes back to the ol' continuum fallacy, which would essentially argue that all language is useless because none of it is precise/all of it is relative or has some innate bearing.
>We have general definitions for what constitutes a "human", and yet not all human beings adhere to it.
C'mon.
>>5387519
No, I don't see the problem, because I'm not autistic.
You can make a looser and wider term for what means somebody is human.
Same goes for female and male.
>>5387516
Yeah, having a tiny number of females in politics is privileged. Having to fight the number one religion in your country and the government to have abortions is privileged. etc etc Are you one of those /r9k/ trannies? The "I want to be a woman but I hate women" ones?
>>5387514
HRT and surgery alter biological sex traits, Miranda.
Well, at least they do it you aren't a fourty year old hon who thinks rejecting them and keeping younger people from meds makes you true.
>>5387545
>HRT and surgery alter biological sex traits
Surgery is cosmetic. HRT, kinda, I guess. Alter doesn't mean transition to female is 100% though.
Miranda is a cool person and you have worse people on your side.
>>5387545
Except there is no "true" tranny, that's all false dichotomy.
This whole religious therapist tranny cult should be dismantled and any non-binary person asking for hormones should be able to obtain them without any obstacle or fundamentalist bullshit preventing them from that because "they are not women enough."
>>5387539
>No, I don't see the problem, because I'm not autistic.
Ok, then you're just stupid and we're done. You are continually engaging in a logical fallacy and just stubbornly insisting that it's fine. Arguing that a definition is useless and doesn't exist because it isn't as precise as you want it to be is a logical fallacy, because ALL HUMAN LANGUAGE would fall to this argument and make all definitions worthless. This is the last time I will repeat this.
>You can make a looser and wider term for what means somebody is human.
Same goes for female and male.
Except again, this argument has no logical limit. Meaning that woman could come to encompass colors, trash cans, plastic bags, and whatever else you want it to. And even all of those things I just listed are imprecise concepts(when does a piece of plastic become a trash can!?).
If you don't get why your argument doesn't follow at this point, nothing will. So I'll leave you to your idiocy.
>>5387545
altered biological sex traits make you a modified man not a woman :^)
>>5387569
>"they are not women enough."
More like they are not feminine enough, though.
>brain scans will never happen
>"female" will get redefined more and more
>no tranny will ever have to prove they're "really female"
>more Stefonknees will "transition"
>they have no proof and no one cares
Trannies don't see a problem with this, of course.
>>5387543
>Live longer than men.
>Far less likely to be murdered or suffer violent assault compared to men.
>If a woman accuses a man of rape then the man is guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion.
>A woman being raped is considered horrifying, a man being raped is comedy (or part of the punishment of going to prison).
>Women and children first; men are considered more disposable.
>If a man and a women are both drunk and have sex, then the man can be considered to have raped her if she later regrets it because she couldn't consent (but he could, for some reason, despite being just as intoxicated).
>Favored by child custody laws and divorce laws.
>In matters of domestic abuse, if the man is the victim nobody cares.
>Countless shelters for female victims of domestic abuse, a mere handful of male shelters across the entirety of the North American continent.
>Testing and curriculums in schools favor girls over boys.
Because feminism is a form of slave morality that bases identity on victim status, which is inherently life-unaffirming because it implicitly fetishizes the victim state as a legitimate basis for collective pride and regard. If you wish to mold your form, physical and social, to a pre-ordained ideal originating from the deepest self, with the necessary implication this carries in regards to the actualization of your will, systems of morality that are based on the subversion of individual will (as all slave moralities are) are not going to appeal to you by form. Or at least they shouldn't if you understand the full implications of the radical nature of your position. The struggle of the trans individual to assume their internal identity in external reality is an archetypal analogue of the struggle of man to superman, as individuals who strive in league with those who understand the existential imperative of this transubstantiation, one would hope trans individuals would oppose all ideologies that in their nature attempt to stifle this spiritual growth. To put it simply, feminism is a collectivist ideology, and the struggle of the trans individual is one of radical individualism.
>>5387524
Again, the number of people that DO NOT match their chromosomes is miniscule. Being pedantic over this point and pointing out extremely rare exceptions where development goes awry is not indicative that chromosomes are bad indicators for sex. They are excellent indicators for sex with only rare misses.
Note that these scientists classify these conditions as "disorders" and "variations", not standard. In other words, they're exceptions and very atypical. Even if you want to say "Well, Chromosomes just determine hormone production, they themselves don't actually determine what sex you are"...fine. But they are indicative of it and correct about it the overwhelming majority of the time. While hormones themselves are what affect that development, that doesn't discredit chromosomes as sexual indicators.
Even if you try to define sex as a "spectrum" as these researchers did, 99%+ of the population falls under standard XY XX sex assignment and accurately fits their sexual definition. So it's not like it's some evenly split spectrum with lots of diversity. It's just that they're trying to include the exceptions in the spectrum.
Do Chromosomes determine sex with 100% accuracy? No, they don't. They determine it with 99% accuracy. Citing disorders like they invalidate chromosomes altogether is kind of silly.
>>5387602
men are considered disposable because they are duh
women are evolutionarily more valuable because they create new life unlike dudes who just destroy it
>>5387602
>And?
>Because dudes are killing dudes
>ok and?
>Guys make plenty of jokes about men getting raped, take it up with them too
>literal myth
>proof please
>no, studies have shown that if men ask, they get custody the majority of the time
>this is your feels, not the truth
>because they don't need those shelters
>proof please
Your stuff is feels or stuff that is unsourced. Power is excellent determinant of "privilege" and what I said in my post is absolutely true. Men have more power. Build your shelters, brah.
>>5387617
It's a universal system. Chromosomes don't determine sex, genes all of them conserved between all humans do and hormones and other expression products make that so.
You're demanding we reject all of that and abide by a fairy tale.
>>5387656
This isn't meant to be a pissing match. Check your privileges and I'll check mine.
>>5387687
The interaction between men and women is almost always a pissing match, and I'm not checking shit, meine familie. "Cis" women are not privileged.
>>5387662
>You're demanding we reject all of that and abide by a fairy tale.
I think you mixed up who was doing what. Citing a single study where one group of scientists posit that there is a spectrum of sexes(incorrectly, and against all scientific consensus at that) despite the overwhelming majority of humans correctly fitting their sex determination is not sufficient evidence for your claims, and flies in the face of most other research on human sex determinism.
I already agreed that chromosomes themselves do not determine sex with 100% accuracy. They are an indicator, not an absolute determination. But they are the "keystone" to determining sex, meaning that chromosomes NOT lining up with sexual development requires a rare abnormal condition that occurs in less than .01% of the population.
You're being pedantic because you're arguing over something pointless. While hormones are what actually form your sex, chromosomes are what determine your hormone production and chromosomes are EXTREMELY accurate in determining sex.
>>5387656
Not the anon replying but
>>And?
Yeah men dying younger because of stress, high risk jobs and in protection of women is okay.
>Because dudes are killing dudes
>blacks killing blacks
>therefore no problem
that's your logic
>ok and?
Kangaroo courts, lynch mobs and disregard for the law because it goes in women favor shows how little you care about men.
>Guys make plenty of jokes about men getting raped, take it up with them too
He's talking about actual rape and not rape jokes you dense idiot. Where are the rape centers for men?
>literal myth
Yeah all those police officers, fighters and soldiers risking their lives are living myths i suppose.
>proof please
You can't be serious there are posters around university campuses with this logic
>no, studies have shown that if men ask, they get custody the majority of the time
There's been several news coverage and cases that has shown otherwise, do you watch different news?
>this is your feels, not the truth
Man up, what a pussy to get beaten up by a women.
>because they don't need those shelters
Why because you said so, you can't even view men as being a victim of abuse.
>proof please
Several reports of a women majority succeeding in school and women majority in campus. Learn to google, no wait that"ll break the narrative.
And here we are
>trans people must join feminism
>or your retarded
Gee I wonder why the turnout is such shit.
>>5387425
So much BS that has already been proven false.
>>5387736
Compelling argument, thanks.
>>5387717
It's not a single study, it's a review by Nature journal noting the broad consensus.
Now if you want to claim the most prestigious science journals in the world are fake and your high-school bio isn't then be my guest, but it's you who's asking for a leap of faith.
>>5387656
>homeless men and boys don't need shelters
You're a truly ugly person for saying this. Even as a joke. Just stopped by and saw this and someone had to let you know... you're officially an amoral zealot, anon.
>>5387656
>because dudes are killing dudes
I don't understand your point. It is almost like you are implying that men cause death to themselves merely by being men. This would be like saying that women incur rape - well, because they are women. You're placing the blame on the victim - a man is killed by another man - oops, maybe he should been a girl. I don't understand. Is that what you are trying to say? If so, that's incredibly vapid and a grand display of the true privilege women enjoy.
I have a hard time believing this isn't b8. How can you posit that having a shorter lifespan demographically is not indicative of a larger issue? That's just stupid.
Again, this is one of the major evils of the gender rights argument. People cannot focus on two things at once. It is either, females have problems, or men have problems, not both.
>>5387752
It's typical Feminist apathy. Pretend that male problems do not exist, or place the blame on the men themselves.
>>5387715
You're fucking joking. lmao
>>5387749
>It's not a single study, it's a review by Nature journal noting the broad consensus.
It does no such thing. It's a review of a study, but it does not reflect scientific consensus. Why would you even say that?
>Now if you want to claim the most prestigious science journals in the world are fake and your high-school bio isn't then be my guest, but it's you who's asking for a leap of faith.
Appeal to authority fallacy. You're citing a single review of a primary source and pretending it's factual. You are the one taking a leap of faith, despite all modern scientific literature adhering primarily to chromosome sex determinism. You'll note that the only real people discussing "spectrums" of sex and arguing against chromosome sex determinism are mostly transgender blogs or some third rate click bait sjw news websites.
>>5387733
I don't want trans people to join feminism. They only fuck it up, and plenty of them hate women too.
Dude, none of your complaints change the fact that men run the government, science, economy, religion, industry, etc. Most industries are male-dominated. The measuring stick you're using is "I have suffered, therefore you have privilege over me." It's fucking stupid.
And yes, "save women before men" is a literal myth. I can't be serious about asking for specific proof that backs up anon's claims? The claim that "nobody cares if men are the dv victims" is literal feels - and it's not true. How many people think women are dumb whores if they stay with abusive men? These are not hard facts, they are feels. They don't need those shelters because I'm guessing a lot of them already own homes, and no one, including yourself, probably spends that much time getting them shelters. Listen, women doing well in school does not prove school is biased towards them.
I like dudes plenty but most of your complaints are garbage. Men still have much more institutional power than women, regardless of whatever "but you're getting this but we aren't!" thing you come up with.
>>5387777
Literature reviews are the consensus.
Even first year genetics classes teach that stuff now.
>http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/geneprob.htm Sex (It’s a Phenotype, Not a Chromosome!):
You just want to demand we can't consider them.
>>5387653
it's true, but it also invalidates all the equality rhetoric of feminsm.
plus, it's dumb to say that just men destroy life. but that can branch off into a whole different conversation
>>5387761
I'm saying directly that when we're talking about privilege, we're talking about privilege over, contextually. Male on male crime is what? Not something that has to do with females? You got it. You're talking about a class eating itself, not two classes interacting and one killing the other more frequently.
What is the larger issue, then, anon? How does it mean women are oppressing men?
Actually, if men focused on their own problems that would be fab. But even in a thread about trans women, here you are. This whole damn site is by men, for men. You think you couldn't organize and build shelters? C'mon.
>>5386952
Pro-life movement is a group of people who have certain opinion, you can't control this kind of behavior no matter what. They don't feel like they're going against women, they just see unborn baby as a human being and so they see abort as murder. You can still abort a baby, no one is controlling their body.
>>5387805
We do try, but we are met with skepticism, opposition, and flat out resistance from feminists who believe that men do not experience DV.
"I don't see your asses mobilizing"
This is like going to a crackhouse and asking the blacks there why they "aren't mobilizing" to get into college or otherwise secure a future...you are ignoring their endemic issues and socioeconomic circumstances which is stupid. We do try, but Feminsm opposes us. And we know that Feminists are capable of changing public opinion rather quickly.
>>5387793
You do realize your whole line of argumentation just proves how inherently toxic your ideology is, I hope. It is entirely based on rolling and wallowing in victimhood, with all that is strong, dominant, successful, and effective despised for not being as pathetic as you. As you mention, of course, we don't need to worry about you trying to recruit trans people here, as their identity is based entirely around the affirmation of the self, of succeeding and being effective in a matter of personal identity divorced from any social movement or collectivized "good" that one's success has to be tethered to for justification as in your system of morality. If you want an answer for why trans people reject your movement and the losers that cling to and rely on it for meaning and affirmation, there it is.
>>5387793
>I don't want trans people to join feminism. They only fuck it up, and plenty of them hate women too.
>[citation]
>men run the government, science, economy, religion, industry.
>Most industries are male-dominated.
So and? And nice trying ignoring all the women who also operate in all those even to the point ignoring there's a women who are supreme court judges that voted in favor of gay marriage. Don't tell me supreme court referendums are not a big deal to the country right?
>The measuring stick you're using is "I have suffered, therefore you have privilege over me."
I never said anything like that , don't put words in my mouth. There's a thing called meritocracy where you have to work hard and smart for what you want to achieve and anti discriminatory laws have already have rules in place for equal opportunity. What I have seen feminists demand is equal outcome, using quotas and affirmative action to put women in positions they did not work hard for to fulfill a "gender gap". When doesn't the "gap" problem fix? Until every ceo, board of directors, and managers is female? What about female dominated spheres like education, medicine and early child care, where is the cry for gender gap?
>"save women before men" is a literal myth
Fucking Titanic have you seen the movie based on the actual titanic? Any emergency procedure, don't insult my intelligence.
> The claim that "nobody cares if men are the dv victims" is literal feels
> They don't need those shelters because I'm guessing a lot of them already own homes, and no one, including yourself, probably spends that much time getting them shelters
You just contradicted yourself, are you saying battered women don't own homes? Men don't move in to live with women? By you logic women don't called suicide hotlines since men commit suicide more, therefore disregard suicidal women.
>>5387543
Why should I care about any of those things?
>mfw reading the inane bullshit TERFs in this thread are posting
>>5387849
>resistance from feminists
Do feminists run the government? Who says you need to run these issues by them?
Black people mobilize. Like, all the time. That's what BLM is and whole bunch of other orgs, colleges, etc are for. And for the record, there are "men only" things that exist and have yet, strangely, to be purged by the villainous feminists. If the MRAs and meninists hadn't positioned themselves as trying to prove women are oppressing men, they would have been ignored.
>>5387840
Mm! Good point. Nothing to do with females. Women never lose their husbands, friends, brothers, friends or acquaintances to homicide or murder. That's a good one. I'll have to right it down somewhere.
This isn't an issue about women abusing men. At all. In any iota whatsoever.
>if men focused on their own problems
>meanwhile you have articles like this that directly posit that our issues are nonexistent
http://www.bustle.com/articles/71400-6-reasons-men-can-literally-never-be-victims-of-sexism-and-those-who-think-they
We'd love to talk. Other people - often feminists, do not want us to. Just look at the movement - fundamentally, you see that Feminists are inherently and ideologically self serving...
>>5387840
>Actually, if men focused on their own problems that would be fab.
It would be! It's a shame that feminists seem to have a problem with any attempts to create groups for focusing on said problems and do their damnedest to get them shut down.
>>5387913
>Do feminists run the government?
In some cases, yes. In others, the government listens to feminists.
>>5387913
Obviously not, but Feminists control and regulate public and popular opinion which leads to legislature and gov actions taken in favor of women. You do not need to be a Congressman in order to cause political change.
Feminism & BLM have mobilized are garnered lots of attention b/c they are seen at the victims...if white people tried to start a support group - that shit would get shut down real quick. Same thing w/ men. We are seen as privileged so our attempts to make a move are seen with skepticism and even resistance. We already run the world, right?
>>5384634
>trying to make it better
Feminists are a cancer to all of us, at least the current internet themed ones. All they want is to shift the spotlights to their first world problems and hog all discussion.
You see them arguing against sexist videogames as if thats their reason of being instead of actually fighting anything that would actually change the world.
Not to mention most of them hate both gay people and trans people for "replacing them".
>Feminists trying to make it better
>>5384634
Because people tend to resent ideologies that view them and their demographic as simply tools to achieve an ideological end. To feminists and the majority of the New Left/Frankfurt school collective, LGBT individuals are just tools in their attempt to overturn Western morality and culture to create a ground suitable for the growth of first social, then economic Marxism. Which of course they shouldn't feel bad about, it's all just historical materialism taking its course, isn't it?
>>5387913
>Do feminists run the government? Who says you need to run these issues by them?
That fact that the future candidates are clamoring to adopt the term says a lot about it's reach in the political sphere.
The fact that it's being taught in gender and women studies shows how ingrain it is in academia, don't tell me feminism is some powerless internet meme.
Black people aren't mobilizing, black supremacist calling themselves black lives matter terrorizing white student in Berkley university library and riots in the street is a counterproductive race bait.
>there are "men only" things that exist and have yet, strangely, to be purged by the villainous feminists
Such as women needs to be in gay bars but guys not allowed in lesbian bars? Trans women unable to attend women only music festival in michigan but transmen are because they are bio sex women. The 20+ articles spat out by huffington post gay corner about gay men being misogynistic. Yeah I am feeling the equality.
> If the MRAs and meninists hadn't positioned themselves as trying to prove women are oppressing men, they would have been ignored.
So you agree that mens humanist rights movement would be ignored naturally, nice to see you create a false narrative and meninist is a meme. You can't get mad at meninist when you got #killallmen, either both or neither, welcome to equality.
>>5387895
>[citation]
It's... an opinion? How can I cite an opinion, anon?
>do you know what male-dominated means
>I think a meritocracy absolutely exists now despite what happened in the past and despite obvious misogyny, racism, etc. The system is infallible, any inequality is literally fate
>also why do men die sooner than women? Obviously, this is wrong and not fate
>movies are real life and no one takes creative license with them
As far as the shelter thing goes, how is that a contradiction? I'm guessing. I don't study this for a living. Do YOU know why men's shelters are not as common?
>>5387914
Is it the fault of those women that men are killing each other?
Yeah, they are self-serving. So? Stay out of their space and don't say men are oppressed by women. Saying "men suffer from sexism" is saying "women oppress men".
>>5387921
If you blame women and saying women are oppressing you or spout misogyny, they'll come for you.
>>5387932
Man, you've really got it neatly tucked away.
>>5387940
>feminists control opinions
This is why abortions are never under attack ever, and why particular things that bug feminists, like objectification of women, has ended immediately.
>shit would get shut down real quick
I live somewhere where an ad for men-focused divorce lawyers advertise and I've heard jack all about getting rid of them. My gym has a men-only club and the newspaper also advertises a men-only club. And yes these things about support. The fact you say "would get" means you think stuff like this doesn't exist, and that despite your complaining, you also haven't started anything yourself.
>>5388058
>If you blame women and saying women are oppressing you or spout misogyny, they'll come for you.
And what about when they "come for you" when you're trying to have a talk about issues like male suicide rates? How do you justify that?
>>5388058
>>5388058
>Stay out of their space
I fully intend to, now why don't you do the same and stay out of ours? You or whoever made this thread should know why the lgbt board on this website would be anti-feminism, because that is the nature of the culture of this website, which we have just as much of a right to as you do to your spaces. The argument you're currently locked in really doesn't matter, to get back to the point of this thread we don't want nor are asking for you or your movement's help, so why don't you kindly fuck off if you don't like how we think of it. You're not going to change anyone here's minds about feminism, so why not just go back to a place where it is accepted and embraced, surely there's enough places out there like that that you have no need to waste your time here on such a toxic community? Now shoo.
>>5388013
>clamoring
Really, brah? And I never said it was powerless, that fact is that shelters do receive funding, which is why it would be important to run things by the feminists if they ran the govt. But they don't. Appealing to their voter base is what politicians do.
>BLM are black supremacists
Just.
So you agree trans women are men? Anyway, trans women were allowed to go to fest, and many did. Certainly, Vogel's politics were pretty profoundly that it was not their space, and yes, one trans woman was removed, but they did go, and were allowed to go. "Unable to attend" is a transfeminist lie. See my other comment for examples of male-only stuff. Gay men being criticized for misogyny has nothing to do with feminists destroying male only spaces. Please stay on topic, yeah?
Well, they would be ignored by feminists, like MGTOW is. Brah, don't you WANT to be ignored by feminists and appeal to the majority of people? Getting the populace on your side is how you get issues solved.
Equality, as usual, on men's terms. You ever wonder about that, anon?
>>5388092
If you talk about male suicide rates without mentioning women or talk about them without it being in the context of women first talking about oppression, feminists will generally leave you alone.
>>5388105
So you're a trans guy? This is a thread about trans women. Are trans women men? Is that why you're here?
In any case, trans women do not stay out of feminism, and they don't stay out women's spaces either. Neither do trans people in general. Hell, neither do men. So who is you, and what do you REALLY fully intend to do?
>>5384634
>transphobia
I don't think you understand what a phobia is- oh wait, you came from tumblr, didn't you?
Feminism is a religion. LGBT and religion don't tend to mix very well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0
>>5384768
>it's a movement.
It certainly is. Just like the KKK!
>>5388058
>don't say men are oppressed by women
...oh, look at this...you just said not to do it...i'm gonna do it anyway! men are oppressed by women! how exhilarating...
what is your logic here anyway? why is feminism a female space only? xenophobic shit
+ just because something is a male issue does not mean that is only effects men. you are being ignorant of real issues here. male suicide and homicide effect a broader scope than just the man in question. of/c it's not a girl's fault. doesn't matter, it still needs discussion
tl;dr we can both be homies but we need to acknowledge each other's struggles if we want to coexist peacefully.
>>5388134
>trans women do not stay out of feminism, and they don't stay out women's spaces either
See, there's this crazy concept called "two wrongs don't make a right," and a fact called "collective responsibility doesn't exist, and therefore you can't retaliate against individuals within a group because others in said group have wronged you." Just because some obnoxious MtFs completely unrelated to us mess with your movement doesn't give you a right to come to our space and mess with us. And yes, I'm a trans woman, that's why I'm rather irate that a cis woman is coming to a site where she isn't wanted to argue with us over us not supporting her movement. Just accept that we don't like feminism as it isn't in our interests just as our interests are not in yours, and do us all a favor and go back to a place where you can be with people who don't despise your ideology.
>>5384634
I don't know many trans women that are anti-feminism.
They're anti-internet feminism and obviously against TERFS because the first is kek and the last is "I demand you not partake in genders because we terfs are trying to abolish with no real answer on how to abolish it"
even tho we're affected by social conditioning too and if you look like jenner but don't have money ur just gonna get beat up
of course I'm gonna try to "pass" cunts lol
>>5388058
You're right when you say transwomen suffer from misogyny and transphobia but at the hands of you. You claim transwomen hate women and have zero evidence other than wanting to demonize them for your feelings. So much for equality.
I know what male-dominated spheres mean, you never elaborated how that is inherently a bad thing or how the inverse is inherently a good thing.
>I think a meritocracy absolutely exists now despite what happened in the past and despite obvious misogyny, racism, etc. The system is infallible, any inequality is literally fate
>The measuring stick you're using is "I have suffered, therefore you have privilege over me."
Oh the irony, you did exactly what you accused me of, doing, sounds like you're a little self hating there anon.
>movies aren't real
Didn't say they were, but the actual event did evacuated women and children first, anyone can read about how real life tragedies are handled. Let's hope with the recent announcement from the pentagon allowing women to being infantry soldiers turn the tide on this reality for the better of equality.
>Do YOU know why men's shelters are not as common?
Lack of funding via government, non profit agencies and rabid feminist outcry about "necessary resource allocation". You can ignore the heading for you feminist sensibilities, but his a snippet of a discussion of the first dv shelter for men, I'm sure you can relate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOJIAp7sYU4
You said nobody caring about battered men are a made up emotional outcry and then go on to justify why men shouldn't have a shelter with the piss poor logic that
1) all men are home owners
2)can some how command their abuser out of their house.
Don't bring up a point if you not educated in the topic, I'm not going to feed your side of the discussion.
>>5388058
you're being reductionist...abortion is not a "woman's issue", it is often a "life/moral issue". the reason why abortion is controversial is _irregardless_ of women, not because of them. hence the terms "anti-abortion/"pro life"" and "pro choice" there are anti abortion feminists, bruh
righto. i cannot really take female/male objectification seriously. it's just stupid to pretend that sexual attraction does not exist. people have been objectifying themselves and eachother since the beginning of time in order to attract a partner. it's fine and regular behavior; men are objectified too, it's fine.
I know that stuff exists. but those examples are purely anecdotal so I could give a fuck less tbhq.
>>5388187
>ou're right when you say transwomen suffer from misogyny and transphobia but at the hands of you. You claim transwomen hate women and have zero evidence other than wanting to demonize them for your feelings.
This, she's at once openly stating her open dislike for transwomen and their being involved in her movement, and then wondering why they don't support her movement. Zero self-awareness. Zero.
>>5388013
>calling trans women evil pedophile rapist men who deserve what they get
Yeah, I think we can see why people don't want anything to do with your movment.
>>5388202
Gee I can see the radfems leading the charge against HERO and working with the far right to portray lgbt people as monster rapists was gonna give them the moral high ground.
How dare lgbt not approve!
>>5388172
Feminism is not really a "female only" space, but personally, I think it would be much better if it was.
No one's saying you can't discuss your issues. But saying that men are oppressed by women and women are privileged is absurd right now, when men have more power than women on an institutional level. Do we legislate the fuck out of your bodies? No. If it's not a woman's fault that men are suicidal, why is male suicide used as an example of female privilege?
>>5388175
I only engaged when someone said women are privileged. I regret nothing, frankly, and the idea you reject "collective responsibility" as a concept while also rejecting feminism in totality is pretty illogical, but hey, that's better for women in general. And I never did, and never have, asked men, or you, to support feminism.
>>5388221
>I only engaged when someone said women are privileged.
Do you deny that women have any privileges whatsoever in western society over anyone else?
>>5388112
>>BLM are black supremacists Just
>>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3321190/F-filthy-white-s-Black-Lives-Matter-protesters-scream-epithets-white-students-studying-Dartmouth-library.html
>‘Fuck you, you filthy white fucks!’ and ‘Fuck you, you racist shit!’
Sure
>So you agree trans women are men?
Goalpost moving, I'm saying women love to have their space "women only" even at the cost of invalidating transwomen since they aren't FAAB.
>http://jezebel.com/the-myth-of-the-fag-hag-and-dirty-secrets-of-the-gay-ma-1506868402
>feminine gay men are making women look bad!
>Well, they would be ignored by feminists, like MGTOW is.
Don't care what's your hang up on mgtow.
Brah, don't you WANT to be ignored by feminists and appeal to the majority of people? Getting the populace on your side is how you get issues solved.
No that's what you want, don't tell me what my directives are, and the end doesn't justify the means, you don't get to spout your "privileged" hypothesis in other people faces for convenience.
>Equality, as usual, on men's terms. You ever wonder about that, anon?
What are you talking about, no seriously list 1 activity that this has happened.
>>5388221
b/c there is a c o r r e l a t i o n between men are suicide that d o e s n o t e x i s t in females. do you understand?
If this is b8, it's elaborate. Women are privileged. Men are privileged. You seriously believe that women have 0 privileges? If being more likely to live + having a longer lifespan is not a privilege, I do not know what is.
Yeah, we are. Circumcision. Selective Service. Those are two things that are a big fuckin deal
>>5388187
>thinking i'm the op
Are you new to this anonymous thing?
Male-dominated means that males, by logical grounds, would have the power in those groups and those groups would be catered to men.
>you did exactly what you accused me of
No. I don't think it's a meritocracy. I don't think the system is invaluable, and this isn't an issue of suffering, this is an issue of who has power over whom.
>this one event did, all others did
So outcry from feminists is the reason, an govts make no decisions themselves even if a large part of the populace does not approve. It's feminism. No, dude.
"Nobody caring" is obviously false because men bring it up enough I assume they do care.
>>5388189
And the majority of feminists are pro-choice and if govt really did listen to feminists, it would no longer be as controversial as it is today.
Really, man? If you don't give a fuck, maybe you should leave this conversation.
>>5388221
>legislate men's bodies
No but you've devoted your entire political apparatus to banning people who happen to be between male and female from having the slightest bit of bodily autonomy.
http://theterfs.com/terfs-trans-healthcare/
The fact you cite restrictions far less onerous than what transsexuals have to deal with as an outrage shows just how hypocritical you are.
If it's wrong for people to put a day long wait time for abortion or require a doctor visit, then how could you claim it's just to ban us from having the slightest control over what happens to our bodies.
I can't belive I ever was part of your sick movment.
>>5388221
The problem with your conception of privilege is that you conceive of it as being synonymous with power, when in reality a system can easily (and does) exist in which those in power grant an excess of privilege to a group who are decidedly not in power. Privilege in its most basic civic form refers to rights and abilities before the law granted to one group but not another, and an excess of legal rights and abilities are extended to women that are not to men. Socioeconomic misfortunes are not the realm of the law and can't be used to cite who does and who does not possess excess de jure freedoms and abilities. And stop bitching about people "legislating your body" more than men, the only reason there is more legislation that affects women's bodily functions than men is because they possess functions, namely pregnancy, that men don't, and in those functions the rights of another living being become involved in a way they never would for men's bodies. The issue of abortion is entirely one of whether or not a fetus at a given level of advancement has sufficient consciousness to merit a right to life or not, anti-abortion activists don't have some special grudge against women's bodies, they simply think that the aforementioned right to life does exist and that in existing it overrides the otherwise absolute bodily autonomy that applies to all those who don't have another human growing inside them.
>>5388265
>feminists are pro-choice
Then why do you decree that transsexuals shouldn't have access to hormones or surgery. Or barring that you advocate that they be banned from such things till they're elderly or be forced to conform to strict requirements that make them act like individualism destroying caricatures to get treatment.
If you think thirteen year old girls have a right to abortion and hazardous xenoestrogen contraceptives, then why do you have any right to ban transsexuals from HRT till they're over 25?
>>5388261
Brah, what? Women attempt suicide more often. Do you really believe "privilege" is just a thing you collect? Like this is a privilege, that is a privilege? Items? Because that is not how I use the term "privilege."
>>5388255
Over anyone else? Possibly. If trans women wanted to argue "cis" women have privilege over them I probably wouldn't argue with them. If non-binaries did the same, I probably wouldn't either. If a black guy said a white woman had privilege over him, I'd be like ok. So on and so forth.
>>5388259
Do you know what "supremacy" means?
How tf is gay men getting criticized for misogyny destroying male only spaces? Again, I will ask.
And that's not "goalpost moving" - we're talking about men vs women. At worst, I was baiting you.
I'm not even sure what you want now.
>What are you talking about
Shit like "if men and women are equal, can I hit women (like men hit men)?"
>>5388265
*infallible oops
>>5388221
>TW are men and deserve everything they get because they're skeptical of an illiberal movment with a track record of working with the rest of the far right to persecute lgbt
Welp, no wonder most millennials, females included say in polls that they don't have a good opinion of feminism.
You've run your movment into the ground by turning it into a vehicle to wipeout minorities.
>>5388303
How do you define privilege, then?
>>5388272
Yeah, one sentence and Janice Raymond is Death herself, come to collect 50,000 transgender souls. "Between male and female," my ass. But if you want to turn this to trans people to protect the dudes from getting BTFO I'm not really surprised. Keep derailing.
>I can't belive I ever was part of your sick movment.
Again, not a feminist but I also doubt they miss you?
>>5388277
Trans men and non-binaries get abortions. Why are women called the baby killers and whores?
>The problem with your conception of privilege is that you conceive of it as being synonymous with power
This is why you continuously have arguments with feminists and anyone else who uses the ACADEMIC definition of privilege, oppression, whatever. You are trying to use words differently in a specific context.
>Socioeconomic misfortunes are not the realm of the law and can't be used to cite who does and who does not possess excess de jure freedoms and abilities.
Now THAT'S funny. Considering that homelessness was specifically mentioned not by me, but by an opponent >>5387752 and I fail to see you point this out to him, I will sit patiently and wait for you to do so.
>>5388296
I'm not actually opposed to them having access to hormones or surgery. See, you should actually ask me my opinions, rather than assume. Good attempt.
>>5388265
>Male-dominated means that males, by logical grounds, would have the power in those groups and those groups would be catered to men.
You still haven't stated why this is inherently a bad thing and why the inverse is inherently good.
>meritocracy
Are you upset of those individuals who have a higher approval rating from their efforts or have wealth and class to manoeuvre much more easily than others? Nothing I can do for that other than too bad, this is not a gender problem.
>So outcry from feminists is the reason, an govts make no decisions themselves even if a large part of the populace does not approve.
Look I'm not going to link spam you, if you want to believe that feminists don't interfere even after showing you the debacle that took place during the first created dv shelter in USA which got shut down from outcry, then believe what you want.
>>5388303
Yes I know what it means, google definitions are not hard, entering a library, disrupting people studying and pinning a women down to scream racial slurs sounds very much like supremacy if the KKK did that same exact thing to black college campus students.
So feminine gay men are misogynistic for liking gender roles and femininity? They are misogynistic being indifferent to women? Well shit.
>Shit like "if men and women are equal, can I hit women (like men hit men)?"
Are you serious? Is this the biggest concern? So what, take a punch. Apparently to you men hurting men is a men problem regardless of the fact that the victim may not have aggravated any form of violence to themselves nor is every man some battle ready vikings and some of them are limp wrist femboys who can't fight on equal terms with other men. Welcome to equality according to you/
>>5388347
>not a feminist
I must applaud you then, you're doing a damn good job acting like one.
>>5388347
>Trans men and non-binaries get abortions. Why are women called the baby killers and whores?
I'm pretty sure it's specifically women WHO GET ABORTIONS who are categorized as that, and there the important factor is that they are people who are getting abortions, not that they are women. As for why transmen and non-binaries are not called that, it's probably because most people in the country are only peripherally aware that said groups exist, and therefore think that the set of people who get abortions and women who get abortions are synonymous. If they were informed of transmen getting abortions they would probably say the exact same things they do about ciswomen about them.
>Considering that homelessness was specifically mentioned not by me, but by an opponent >>5387752 and I fail to see you point this out to him, I will sit patiently and wait for you to do so.
As much as he might be equally as wrong as you in regards to his definition of privilege (as pretty much everyone in this thread is), I wasn't arguing with him, and had no responsibility to point out his equal mistake.
>>5388347
Think you forgot what medicine accomplishes
>one sentence and Janice Raymond
Was one of the three academics that wrote for a Senate committee that passed laws banning private health insurance from treating this. Also shut down the first incarnation of ic care and lobbied against WPATH liberalizing their standards. You still do that. https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=WPATH
Brit healthy holding out against global liberalized standards and prosecuting doctors who follow them is also thanks to your guidelines. http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/general-medical-council-failing-trans-people-they-clear-top-doctor-after-four-year-probe2602/
You call it an outrage when your fellow social conservatives try and push more modest bodily autonomy restrictions against your care so how is it remotely just for you to turn around and do this to others?
>miss you
Yeah I can totally see a shrinking movment that's got a toxic reputation amongst millennials and lgbt is conductive to success.
>>5388362
Pointing out that men run the state, religion and various other institutions is fucking easy. I'm not stupid, or willfully ignorant.
>>5388360
We're talking about who has power over whom, the fact more things are male-dominated is the "power over" part, this is another argument that "female privilege" does not exist.
I don't believe my country is a meritocracy.
Ok, brah, I will look it up.
T.b.h. I love feminine gay men, and the majority of the criticism gay men get I still agree with. We were specifically talking about shutting down male-only spaces. If gay men want men only bars I would support them.
If you want to say BLM is prejudiced that's one thing, but I want to see more examples of them advocating actual supremacy.
Brah, you asked for an example of men defining equality in their terms. I gave it to you.
It's getting late. I will keep engaging for a little bit longer but I have to work tomorrow. Is there anything specific that people really, really, really want me to answer?
>>5388411
"Men" are not a monolithic entity. Men are capable of holding privileged positions over women because they are men, and women are capable of holding privileged positions over men because they are women, dependent on context. To deny that reality is either stupidity or willful ignorance.
>>5388411
Nah not really I'm just stumped that you honestly believe that there isn't a push by STEM fields which male dominated to not only request women but have a preference for them entering the field. I unfortunately don't have the link to show the dozens upon dozens of agencies so this is practically my word against yours.
So what if there are male dominated spheres catering to men, you make it sound as though all men are equal in class, race and mobility and that's not true. Asians are the one's who are the most successful of the male dominated spheres being the highest paid members, should we hate Asians now?
And there is no push to for men to enter women dominated spheres yet men are suppose to allow women in their spaces when the women themselves don't want men there. Talk about hypocrisy. My opinion will only change if there's suddenly a societal push for male teachers, professors, nurses, care givers, until then you can't claim men are rejecting women when the agencies hands are wide open.
>>5388411
>I love feminine gay men
It's your policies that make it impossible for me to take estrogen and keep my body as something I'm comfortable without being forced into a social transition I don't care for.
Those same restrictions you push on the guise of "protecting" people that force people into a system that compelles them into acting like stereotypes, and you then condemn them for what you force them into.
I hate what you've done.
>>5388398
This was never about just your body and you fucking know it. This has been, and continues to be about, whether MTFs are "women." As I've said before, I don't care if you change your body. I DO care you redefine what woman and female means. Which many, many trans people and their supporters (who are also feminists) do.
Plenty of trans people are already monsters.
>>5388393
Again, keep derailing.
>>5388379
Trans men and non-binaries are attempting to make abortion not a woman's issue by changing the gendered language of the debate. I'm pretty sure pro-lifers, specially your "feminist" pro lifers, know. And women who go into Planned Parenthood for a check-up still get called whores.
>As much as he might be equally as wrong as you in regards to his definition of privilege (as pretty much everyone in this thread is), I wasn't arguing with him, and had no responsibility to point out his equal mistake.
I'm using the sociopolitical, academic one, are you sure your definition truly applies in this context?
>>5388473
>Plenty of trans people are already monsters.
Bullshit, your tribe is full of them
>>5388441
But women are? All women have female privilege? All women are privileged over men? This is how this argument started. This is not about jobs, this IS about classes of people, which is what anon >>5387602
started with. GROUPS, brah. CLASSES OF PEOPLE. You're trying to change what we're arguing about because... why? Fuck off already.
>>5388471
I'm not Janice Raymond and yet I'm also not sure you're a man. So maybe you should not think that I love you, personally.
>>5388469
No, men are not all equal. But with every group, there's a female who is also in that class, of that race, of that mobility. And she has to deal with sexism as well as that other societal disadvantage. And I'm pretty sure that the mass stereotyping of Asian men is rooted in hatred, so I don't know about "now" honestly.
Men are in nursing, cosmetology, etc. "Spaces" are not the same as "fields of occupation/jobs," though. Also look up men in nursing sometime, feminists say they have studies proving they get preferential treatment.
>no male professors or teachers
Dude, please.
>>5388531
The existence of female abusers does not negate the females who have been raped or killed by trans people.
>>5388553
>But women are?
Nope, but there are privileges and advantages unique to women that men do not possess, and vice versa.
>>5388531
>>5388558
And friendly reminder when lesbians beat other women they are 1) most likely not beating trans people 2) most likely beating other lesbians.
>>5388553
>and yet I'm also not sure you're a man
See, funny how the moment it's convenient, you go and reverse course on your central argument. What makes you the expert on this?
Effeminate gay guys taking hormones to keep their neoteny and feminine looks isn't unheard of. There wouldn't be any bit of "appropriating" women if you just left it at that but the restrictions your group pushes create a system where therapists force people into becoming women. It's a problem you're contributing to.
>>5388558
>been raped or killed by trans people.
Cite statistics on that. If they're far less prone to doing that than lesbians or other women, then why make them the scapegoats.
>>5388599
My lack of enthusiasm in redefining what women means to include MTFs is stopping gay men from accessing hormones legally for cosmetic reasons? Did we already go over this and I missed it or what?
>>5388618
There are no statistics. There doesn't need to be, I made no claims other than females get raped and killed by trans people, and there are already trans people who are monsters.
>scapegoats
For what?
>>5388640
I wouldn't exactly say it's just cosmetic reasons...
Your own sites and organizations say they oppose liberalization of this sort of therapy. They've been writing briefs on this since before everyone here as born. You only need to look at those links from their own groups to see they're doing all they can to stir unfounded fears about people having access to this sort of Medicine and railing against the NHS and other health systems adopting the more liberal guidelines WPATH and ic would offer. You don't leave people any options.
If you can go collective responsibility on lgbt then why can't the same be said about an ideological movment and it's track record on body autonomy?
>>5388553
>No, men are not all equal.
Good so far.
But with every group, there's a female who is also in that class, of that race, of that mobility.
Typically you go the "but the woman suffers more" route, so what do you propose, disregard the men in the same exact position in favor of women because vagina?
And she has to deal with sexism as well as that other societal disadvantage.
Just like the other men who have the deal with the similar forms of racism and societal disadvantages. Curious name one societal disadvantage women have among their peers and one disadvantage women have among men of similar circumstance.
> And I'm pretty sure that the mass stereotyping of Asian men is rooted in hatred, so I don't know about "now" honestly
It means that the "privilege" boogeyman of one class holding power is nonsensical as it is the same meritocracy model you threw out. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm
So women are in engineering, programming, chemistry, physics what's the difference? Don't change the definition of space as you said "male dominated spaces" which STEM is still a male majority. Devils advocate, what male space exists that women need to enter, log cabins?
>feminists say they have studies proving they get preferential treatment.
How is that a bad thing and that's not the point I was making, I was asking why not the same fervor to get quotas for men to balances female dominated occupation and places?
>no male professors or teachers
Not what I said at all, I said female dominated, not female only spaces, are we going to get pedantic now? Okay, for the record I'm saying there are more female teachers than there is male teachers, where's the public campaign to encourage men to nurture and educate children?
>>5388645
Unfounded when they're far less hazardous to normal women than women are to themselves.
It wouldn't be acceptable to say the same thing about jews or any other minority and yet you go and do so.
>>5388703
>wouldn't be acceptable to say this about jews
Do you know where you are?
I don't consider trans people to be women. However, lesbians are women. Women hurting other women is intracommunity. "Far less hazardous" is your judgment call, even though I doubt you're a woman.
>>5388689
The arguments I've had are about men? What collective responsibility of lgbt? I'm not a feminist, I said that repeatedly. Again, what am I doing, me, specifically?
>>5388700
A woman is disprivileged more, yeah.
>Curious name one societal disadvantage women have among their peers and one disadvantage women have among men of similar circumstance.
Black women are societally disadvantaged among white women as white women dominate discourse about "women's issues." Black women are societally disadvantaged among black men in cases of something like BLM, where BLM and the media supporting them focus more on male victims than female victims. In both cases, black women are disadvantaged and cannot specifically talk about themselves without being ignored or outright told to be quiet - but the world isn't separated neatly so they're in one group or the other, nor can they leave one part of themselves and only deal with the other, so it's more accurate to say black women are constantly disadvantaged on the axis of sex and race.
>It means that the "privilege" boogeyman of one class holding power is nonsensical as it is the same meritocracy model you threw out.
Not following, really.
>spaces
This first started off "male dominated industries." It was occupation/job related. "Spaces" just isn't really the word to use there.
>I was asking why not the same fervor to get quotas for men to balances female dominated occupation and places?
Because men are not oppressed by women.
I doubt education is "female dominated," and some feminists do want men to nurture and educate children, but they do have other priorities.
Ok, peace, time for bed, good chatting with you, dudes.
>>5384634
>Please explain to me why trans women here are so anti-feminism.
They feel threatened by real women. They don't want to be your allies or equals, they want to REPLACE you.
>>5388771
>I'm not a feminist, I said that repeatedly.
Why not?
>>5388771
>The arguments I've had are about men
I don't get what you mean by this. Sorry, really don't.
>I'm not a feminist
Well if you aren't a radical then what are you? You're pushing their ideology so then how aren't you a part of meddling in others bodies.
>I doubt you're a woman.
>I'm also not sure you're a man
Yea, you've really got a habit of flip flopping on these proclamations.
>>5388771
>I doubt education is "female dominated," and some feminists do want men to nurture and educate children, but they do have other priorities.
The US is 87% female teachers according to this.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.PRM.TCHR.FE.ZS
>>5386468
sorry f4m, but transwomen are in fact male
>>5389055
Oh yeah, how could I forget that one? Female genital mutilation is illegal while male genital mutilation is normalized and wrapped up in the cosmetics industry.
>>5386179
>Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland
have undergone a period of far-right free market policy. And only after these countries got rich they switched to the left.
There is no left, when nobody pays for it. And looking at the dynamics of business activity in these countries I can say that they are on their decline.
If not stopped, or when socialism will devour everything they will have to switch back to far-right policy.
Southern America's, Caribbean left regimes, USSR and what has left of it are examples of what left policy does to a country either eventually (if it had any wealth) or from the start (if it had none).
You just cherry pick examples without any analysis or thinking prior to this choice.
>>5387614
That is an interesting thought, thank you.
I guess I should save it.
>>5388996
Why? Whole point of medical therapy is to alter sex. You're demanding people ignore that because why?
>>5384634
Didn't you just spend the whole thread calling Trans evil men who invade your space? How again are you surprised that alienates people?
>>5384634
I'm trans female and I don't understand either
>>5392928
Read the thread and you'll understand.
>>5385244
What trans women face is closer to misogyny than misandry. They're not viewed as men, they're viewed as failed men, people so delusional they want to become an inferior woman. And it's not just women who do this due to fear of having their female privilege "stolen", men, even those who are "aware" of male privilege and try to circumvent it, often hate trannies. It's because of this whole idea that femininity is shameful, especially if one doesn't have the physical beauty to pull it off - beauty is the only point of femininity in society's eyes, every other part of it is shameful and inferior. That's why feminism has made it more acceptable for women to be masculine, but none of the movements for men have really pushed for acceptance of feminine males, because masculinity is viewed by both genders as something to aspire to.
>>5387024
Because a lot of "men's rights groups" do nothing but whine about how women are evil and destroying western civilization. It's a term that may not have any direct bad implications, but by association it's become a bad thing. Kind of like "white pride", there's nothing wrong with white people being proud of their culture, but it almost universally refers to extreme racist
groups. "Men's rights" hasn't acquired that much of a reputation yet, but it's still something that has a negative implication to many feminists.
>>5387043
"Gender is a social construct" these days refers mainly to gender roles. It's been pretty decisively shown that gender identity is NOT a social construct.
>>5387415
>my experience is different, therefore it's a lie
>>5387602
>Live longer than men.
That's largely because toxic masculinity drives men towards risky behaviors.
>>5387848
>You can still abort a baby, no one is controlling their body.
That option won't exist in a meaningful sense if pro-lifers get their way. An opinion ceases to be merely an opinion when it becomes law.
>>5388140
It's the accepted term, regardless of the fact that it's not a literal phobia.
>>5388441
Privilege refers to a typical case, where all other things are equal. And culture is extremely gender schematic, people are perceived as men or women regardless of what they actually are, and that perception is the basis of gendered privilege.
>>5388558
Most rape and abuse directed at both cis and trans women comes from cis men. Calling trans women monsters because of the action of a small minority is nonsensical.
>>5388645
Okay, so all you're claiming is that there are multiple females who have been raped and killed by trans people? That's nonsensical, with any sufficiently large demographic group you can find statistics like that.
>>5393251
>>5393301
I honestly can't tell if I'm reading a parody of an SJW or not. Poe's Law is one hell of a drug.
Its feminazism
Feminism =,equal pay
Feminaziism = men can't be raped
>>5393520
"men can't be raped" is a concept that existed long before feminism.
>>5393565
And feminazis use it more than femists
>>5387132
Uh-oh! Is tripfagging biting you in the ass? Not to worry, I'm here to help!
1) EMPTY the name field
2) CRINGE in shame
Done!
>>5389834
No. The point is to make someone more comfortable in their body by mimicking the characteristics of the opposite sex.
>>5394823
And for non-pedantic, practical purposes, sex is defined by characteristics.
>>5394823
Sex is phenotype, you alter that.
I started out hating feminists but after this thread I just hate the whole human race
I'd press the history eraser button right now
>>5393440
>using SJW unironically
>>5392773
All I've been doing is countering conspiracy theories spreading misinformation.
Speaking of conspiracy theories/misinformation, the whole "feminists hates transexuals" thing is pretty dumb.
>>5384634
Feminism rides on other people problems and it is more interested in publicizing oppression rather than in making it go away. It demands thebpeople who it claims to help to subscribe to its deranged worldview, which paints them as eternal victims and anyone who dares to disagree as either "ists" or people who internalized their oppression: it is no different from abrhamic religions, it is a self reinforcing, self perpetuating parastic meme that climgs on the bulnerable to have them do its bidding.
>>5395601
Anon, you may not be able to type to save your life but you are correct and wise
>>5395595
>hate
everything you've said so far tho. You never answered about those links where they fought with the right against HERO or the ones where they lobby against the new WPATH standards for giving people too much control over their bodies.
Also , you said you're not a feminist despite your pushing a fundamentalist lgbt negative version of it.
>>5395595
You said you wanted transexuals to get the hell out of your feminism. Makeup your mind.
>>5384634
Feminists and their allies tend to be transmisogynist and say and do hurtful and damaging things to trans girls or, at best, merely exclude trans girls while cheaply using us as few extra progressive points when needed.
>>5395586
Why not? SJWs actually exist. I could also call them "moral outragists" or "social justice poseurs" if you'd like.
>>5395595
If you're the person who isn't even a feminist, how can we take anything you say about feminism seriously?
>>5396186
I'm still confused about how the "feminism is your friend" and "trans stay the hell out of feminism and women's spaces" messages from them aren't mutually exclusive.
Weren't feminists the reason why trans people didn't have any access to healthcare until recently?
>>5396754
Yep, has come up in the thread numerous times along with links to feminists trying to ban more liberal and individualistic gudielines under the guise of protecting patients.
>>5396754
They're even trying to stop suicidal men from getting mental health help.
>>5396754
Yes. Feminists like to talk big about equality when PR is on the line, but in the background they're perfectly willing to sabotage the efforts of other people trying to do the same thing.
>>5396180
Moral outragist (or just the classic moralfag) would probably be a better term, it's a bit more descriptive than SJW (which doesn't seem to be a well understood term outside of "anti-SJW" online communities). And SJW has very strong liberal/leftist connotations, with the result that some people end up using it to refer to anything leftist they don't like, which in turn causes some leftists to think that "SJW" is just an insult used by extreme conservatives. Moral outragist is a lot more to the point.
>>5396754
I think it's more the fact that the appropriate treatment for trans people is seen by many as "playing into their delusions". A lot of people just find it counter-intuitive, so it's been neccessary to convince people, and unfortunately many of those who think of it as "playing into their delusions" are completely resistant to any differing views and insist that all of the contradictory information is just "trans propaganda".
>>5398525
You don't get to redefine biological concepts by dismissing them if they contradict your religion. Phenotye is empirically measurable in everything from transcript to histology to blood Chem.
>>5398730
The problem is that the Feminist movement (as with all movements) is not monolithic. They'll all point to the dictionary definition of Feminism when it suits them, but many of them use it to justify a wide variety of actions, some of them positive, some of them exceedingly hostile to groups that they perceive to be the enemy. There is no "True Feminism". TERFs are still Feminists. Feminists who bully a scientist because he wore the "wrong" shirt on what was supposed to be a momentous occasion are still Feminists. Feminists who doxx and harass female MRAs simply for being MRAs are still Feminists. People who get a bad impression of Feminism aren't getting the wrong impression, because it all falls under the same umbrella and the loudest and most obnoxious Feminists are the ones who most often wrestle the spotlight onto themselves.
I don't doubt that there are plenty of Feminists out there doing good work for people who are in need of it, but they shouldn't complain when others give them the stink eye when they claim to be Feminists. I'm not sure which would be worse: for them to be ignorant of the evils perpetrated by Feminists and justified with Feminist ideology, or for them to be willing to turn a blind eye to it when it suits them (or to avoid falling under the crosshairs themselves).
>>5398730
>straight up dumb bitches
>I guess I kind of identify as a feminist
Why you using such terms then?
