Agender/genderfluid/nonbinary is just "She wears short skirts, I wear t-shirts" the gender, everyone still knows you're dfab
It literally means nothing
Now Taylor is the one wearing short skirts
the ironing is delicious
>>5346987
i agree, i cringe everytime ppl tell me they are one of this.
same goes for they pronunce.
you are ether xx or xy , male or female, if you dont look your birth sex, live as the opossite but then use the opposite pronounce and dont make up bullshit terms to feel special.
>>5347073
like not look*
What about real non-binary people like those in femgen? They take hormones to be feminine but still consider themselves males.
>someone says they're gender fluid
I too own many outfits.
>>5346987
I know exactly one person who is nonbinary. Everyone else seems to be making it up. Also I'm kind of annoyed at cis women who use they pronouns. Especially when they try to make their gender out to be some mystery and have something in common with me.
It makes no difference how a person identifies or what pronouns they use. We are all just sacks of meat so just respect them and stop being a bunch of faggots.
>>5347073
I'm a XX/XY chimera. What is my sex?
some nonbinary people, like myself, have dysphoria just as strong as that of binary trans people. it's not all about gender roles/presentation, and if you think that's all it could be you're not putting enough thought into it.
>>5351706
please fucking explain, then.
>acquaintance of mine becomes NB, basically just shaves her head and wears makeup
>posts shit on facebook every day about how she gets misgendered in public
>expects every mcdonald's employee to ask her pronouns
>>5351706
i'm 99.99% sure you have a vagina
>follow this trainwreck of a lolita on instagram
>she is NB but still dresses like an underage girl, expects to be called they or whatever
>posts photos with ugly NB gf with generic qt boi name
>"i love my SO they are so great uwu"
> gf goes back to being cis and converts to Islam so she can wear a hijab
>my fucking face when
>>5351706
I'm curious what you feel dysphoria over, can you describe it?
>>5351777
i assume your acquaintance uses they pronouns, then? some people experience dysphoria when being misgendered. if they're actually angry at people for assuming their pronouns based on presentation, that's really unfair to others, but sometimes it can be really useful to vent about shitty things happening to you even if they're not anyone's fault.
>>5351784
and? about half the nonbinary people i know weren't born with one; this myth that we're overwhelmingly afab simply doesn't play out in reality.
>>5351841
> this myth that we're overwhelmingly afab simply doesn't play out in reality.
[citation needed]
>>5351835
sure. basically i feel dysphoria towards mostly the typical ftm things - my former breasts & high voice, feminine facial features, and being considered a woman - but also feel dysphoria towards facial & some body hair. i feel most comfortable with they pronouns & dressing androgynously, but i feel no dysphoria towards being considered male socially, so i usually stick with that unless the other people are comfortable with nonbinary stuff.
>>5351846
the latest national trans survey included nonbinary questions, so we'll know the numbers when they release the results
>>5351859
>surveying a small group of mentally ill people and expecting accurate results
Where can i get gender fluid?
>>5351832
> gf goes back to being cis and converts to Islam so she can wear a hijab
>>5351894
I think its what comes out of an ass hole after you cum inside of it or something
>>5351892
>small group
the last survey included 6,400 participants, and the more recent one is likely to have had many more due to a more successful outreach effort. that's more than enough people to glean real data from.
What about people like Andreja Pejic??? :^)
>>5351982
i assume you're referencing the people who still claim she's nonbinary?
>>5347073
nonbinary identities existed in pre colonial societies
also what the fuck are intersex people?
try again
>>5351982
he's full trans woman now faggot :^)
>>5351950
6,400 participants huh? that's almost 0.2% of the population of the state of California!
>>5352021
what
no ;-; goddamnit all the non binary celebrities or public figures are really old and crusty for fucks sake, I thought we were getting some good representation
>>5352014
my god do i love the "white people invented gender binary" people
>>5352027
that's because non-binary is a purposeless identity. you will always be seen as male or female regardless of whether or not people support and respect you.
just fucking do your own thing. you all go around saying "gender has nothing to do with how you present/act" but then i see people calling themselves demiboys and demigirls because they have to measure everything they do as either masculine or feminine. it doesn't make fucking sense. it's like asking people to treat you like a mermaid even though you clearly have legs
welcome to the rainbow of degeneracy. Take a seat next to the other snowflakes.
>>5352027
there's tons of younger ones around; i even made a list of ones specifically over 30 because people so often believe there aren't any over 25
>>5352046
not everyone calls themselves a demigender though, because fe/maleness isn't relevant to everyone's identities. but there's nothing wrong with it being relevant to some people's.
and just because most people don't think we're valid doesn't mean being more comfortable with ourselves doesn't have utility.
>>5352059
drag queens don't count
>>5352028
That's not what they said at all.
However, you can't act like nonbinary genders are this newfangled thing when they've been around for thousands of years. It's well-documented (ex: two spirit people in Native American society and the Bugis people in Indonesia). Whether you "agree" with it or not, you can't act like tumblr invented it.
>>5352071
i very specifically didn't include any cis drag queens or people who might be binary trans. i was much more careful about who i included than some people are.
>>5352070
hey, just as long as you realize that the vast majority people will always see you as female and that you can't expect some random old lady on the street to know your made-up gender, you can do whatever makes you feel good.
>>5347073
I cringe everytime some tries to act inteligent and educated on the internet but can't spell basic words such as PRONOUNS
>>5352079
>might be binary trans
so you're speculating that these people are non-binary, is what you're saying?
>>5351835
Putting in my two cents: I'm not nonbinary, but I have a friend who is. They're biggest source of dysphoria is their uterus. It may seem odd, since it's not outwardly visible, but having the ability to bear children is very disturbing to them. They don't seem to have dysphoria with other body parts, but that may also have to do with the fact that they can pass as male when they cut their hair short.
>>5352096
*someone (fuck the lack of edit)
>>5352097
no, i specifically included only people who are explicitly nonbinary and didn't include anyone whose gender is ambiguous. that should've been clear from my post.
>>5348378
Then they're not non binary are they? They're males. That's literally what you just said.
Hormones stop the effects of testosterone and maintain androgyny which some find attractive. It's not really to do with gender in the first place
>>5352119
so where's your list?
i'm very much of the "live and let live" mindset. people should be able to live how they want, call themselves merfolk, dogs, dragons, as long as theyre not hurting anybody they can do whatever makes them happy.
however, i take agender/gender fluid about as seriously as I took the hoards of bi-curious goth girls back in middle school. it's clear they were all doing it to be different/for attention but they were always so ready to fight someone about it because they enjoyed getting mad
i wouldn't want to spend much time with them because i've found that every agender/whatever person has this same mentality, but i'm not going to tell them their identities are stupid, even if that's what i think and will always think.
>>5352126
nonbinary people over 30 in the public eye: justin vivian bond, kate bornstein, ivan coyote, leslie feinberg, andrea/andrew gibson, jana hunter, yuhki kamatani, jiz lee, jerick hoffer/jinkx monsoon, richard o'brien, genesis breyer p-orridge, rae spoon, mattilda bernstein sycamore, steven tyler
i didn't include small webcomic authors even if they're technically in the public eye since they're often very small names and it's harder to determine their ages
>>5352126
Isn't this kind of a rip-off of those cliche anorexia drawings?
>>5352126
wait is this a pre transition transguy who's getting triggered by the dress or a post transition transgirl who still feels dysphoric or is the mirror a portal to a parallel universe where men wear dresses and women wear jeans
>>5352168
[citation needed]
i see a lot of people i've never heard of, and some people who have said "i embrace my masculine/feminine side"
its probably time for you to go back to tumblr
>>5352186
>this image is spooky deep
hey list anon whats ur tumblr?
I knew I was agender since elementary school, and only found that the label for what I was feeling was called 'agender' later on
If you think it doesn't exist, explain how I was agender while I barely had access to the internet and years before tumblr was founded.
>>5352510
Do you actually request special pronouns and like.. Make a thing about it tho?
I don't feel male or female but I always just figured it was part of being a piece of shit sperglord. I can't imagine actually calling myself agender or nonbinary or some shit. Sounds amazingly embarrassing.
>>5352614
Well, I'm sorry you hate yourself. That's not their problem, though.
>>5352630
Woah, I wasn't trying to attack anyone, I'm trying to understand.
>>5352630
I'm sorry. I really wasn't intending to come across like I was calling anyone a piece of shit sperglord or that to come out as non binary is an embarrassing thing to do, I was stating my own feelings from my own experience and I didn't mean for it to apply to anyone but myself. I can see now what I said was rude. I'm sorry for being rude.
>>5352654
Sorry if that sounded aggressive, but I read your post as:
>Well *I* feel that way, and I don't use special pronouns. What you're feeling is actually normal, and you're just a snowflakey jackass.
And actually, yes, autism can inform your gender identity. It's not the only factor, of course, but it's definitely a phenomenon I've observed. I think it has something to do with the fact that a lot of autistic people don't "fit" with their assigned gender, because they don't pick up many of the subtle (and not so subtle) mannerisms. That's just my theory, though.
>>5352614
well only a couple people know I'm agender but I don't think it's a 'tumblr snowflake' thing to tell friends about it.
I do wish that they/them pronouns were normal to use though, I would use them.
I mean, if a person doesn't feel male or female, why shouldn't there be a neutral pronoun for them?
>>5352510
how do you feel agender though, what does that entail
like "i'm a girl but i don't want to wear dresses?"
>>5352722
I made a post in some other thread about it, I'll type it again (only better since I'm not half asleep this time)
so you know how transwomen describe their experiences?
>I didn't fit in with guys
>I felt more feminine than manly
>I identify as a woman
>I want people to see me as a girl, not a guy
>I want a girls body, not this male one I have
>having people see me as male makes me feel uncomfortable, I feel more comfortable being seen as a woman
none of those points were about clothes, right? if it was only about clothes then they would just be a crossdresser.
being agender is like
>I didn't fit in with guys or girls
>I don't feel feminine or manly
>I don't closely identify as a man or a woman
>why do I have to be seen as a guy or a girl? I don't want to be seen as either
>I don't want a girls body, but I don't want a male body either
>having people see me as a girl makes me uncomfortable, but so does having people see me as a guy, is there a neutral option?
>>5352779
>I didn't fit in with guys or girls
>I don't feel feminine or manly
>I don't closely identify as a man or a woman
This is just you being close minded about gender stereotypes and expectations. Nobody is forcing you to be masculine male or feminine female, you can be as androgynous as you want.
>why do I have to be seen as a guy or a girl? I don't want to be seen as either
>I don't want a girls body, but I don't want a male body either
This is you wanting a cake and eating it too. People will see you as one or another because humans happen to only have two different sets of gonads and two genders based on those two sexes.
>>5352779
Most people don't feel feminine or manly. You're not special snowflake because you don't. This isn't 1950, you're not even SUPPOSED to act like a caricature.
Tay my bae
Babe
>>5352807
>This is just you being close minded about gender stereotypes and expectations.
how do transwomen know they're transwomen and not just identifying with a stereotype then?
>Nobody is forcing you to be masculine male or feminine female, you can be as androgynous as you want
so you're saying that I can be as androgynous in how I identify as I want, but being agender isn't real?
>People will see you as one or another because humans happen to only have two different sets of gonads and two genders based on those two sexes.
did you think I didn't know that? I said I /wished/ that there was a neutral option, that there was a possible option that wouldn't have people trying to sort based on my appearance into one or the other. but that won't happen no matter how androgynous someone looks.
>>5352902
>how do transwomen know they're transwomen and not just identifying with a stereotype then?
Because your body is causing you dysphoria and it's remedied by changing your body.
>so you're saying that I can be as androgynous in how I identify as I want, but being agender isn't real?
Yes. Androgyny is not a gender.
If you want to have a make belief gender it's no skin off my back. It's not like I'm going around telling otherkin and whateversexuals to not be those things. Just dont expect me or anyone else to acknowledge your fantasy, let alone treat it as reality.
>>5352196
yeah no, literally everyone i included either uses pronouns other than she or he (or alternates between the two), or has explicitly said they're nonbinary/genderqueer/x-gender/not entirely female or male. i was very careful about this list. feel free to show me which people are actually cis/binary trans, but when i used to post this in the old nonbinary generals no one was actually able to give any contrary evidence
>>5352225
i quit tumblr months ago because it's awful. not an accurate insult.
>>5353620
It's awful, but it does represent a wider range of opinions than /polgbt/.
>>5353711
true, but it tends to just create multiple echo chambers. /pol/ itself is mostly an echo chamber at this point, but even though other boards are sometimes heavily influenced by it, there's still plenty of people on /lgbt/ who disagree with /pol/'s logic & are willing to say something about it.
i really wish there was a website that covered the same style of microblogging as tumblr without enabling/encouraging so much terrible behavior. mob rule, suppression of dissent, etc., are more easily enabled by tumblr's design than any of the other major social media sites, and people have already come up with ways it could be structured more healthily, but tumblr refuses to change and no one has yet released an acceptable alternative.
>>5353728
Disclaimer: I am not disagreeing with you. I think you're spot-on.
Could you elaborate on how tumblr enables poor behavior, and how it could be better structured?
>>5352510
It's just you not understanding gender. You're probably thinking too heavily about stereotypes about gender, decided you don't fit nearly into either and so you must be neither. It's utter bollocks.
>>5353743
basically, one of the biggest issues that can't be fixed by xkit is the inability to easily choose how public a blog, post, or conversation is. because private messaging & replies were so terrible, people would reblog posts whenever they wanted to say anything about them, even when that meant that an argument between two people is posted on the dashboards of all their followers, some of whom will start harassing the "enemy" even if the original arguers want to stay civil.
tumblr having private blogs run like twitter's would help a lot for people to use the site without having to expose themselves to abusive people who trawl the public spaces of tumblr for new targets.
another great thing would be to allow levels of privacy on posts similar to those on livejournal, facebook or google plus. a lot of terrible people will do searches for hot sj buzzwords to look for anyone saying anything problematic (or the opposite, anything sj-heavy) and then either harassing them directly or reblogging the offensive post in question and siccing their followers on them. if people could at the very least prevent sensitive posts from showing up in public searches, or at best choose very specifically who can see which posts, that could halt this issue in its tracks. also that would make going through any given tag so much easier since you wouldn't have a lot of those personal posts that you as a stranger don't give a shit about.
these solutions don't prevent echo chambers from forming in the first place - i'm not sure of the best way to handle that through website design rather than directly speaking to the people within them. it just prevents the people within the echo chambers from doing as much damage to those on the outside.
since i haven't used tumblr in months and have only heard secondhand snippets from friends, some of these suggestions might be outdated. but since it's tumblr i'm talking about, rather than any other social media site, i doubt it.
>>5353840
why do you always assume this? they made it clear in later posts that it's not being restricted by stereotypical gender roles that is the issue, it's being considered female or male at all. i feel the same way (though i don't have full-blown dysphoria for being considered male, only for being considered female) and i have physical dysphoria as well.
>>5352102
I've known may female born non-binaries that didn't have issues with their uterus or any of the rest of their reproductive organs. One size does not fit all.
>>5352807
>Nobody is forcing you to be masculine male or feminine female, you can be as androgynous as you want.
So why did I get beat up? Why am I teased and harassed for expression both masculine and feminine traits?
>>5352807
>People will see you as one or another because humans happen to only have two different sets of gonads and two genders based on those two sexes.
Such a limited mind. Please explain Two Spirits, and all the other third gender categories.
>>5353972
People will make fun of you for literally anything. Everyone has been bullied at some point, the only people that complain about it in adulthood are the ones that never learned to deal with it.
Isnt gender fluid what you put in the tranny
>>5353972
>Such a limited mind. Please explain Two Spirits, and all the other third gender categories.
"I have no understanding of how sex roles work across societies, so I grab random wiki pages and hack parts out of context to justify being an attention whore."
Sex and gender are different, he's talking about sex, stop trying to conflate them with half-assed anthropology. I thought the whole point of muuuh transness is that sex and gender are different, or are you one of those fucking morons that thinks if they scream about female penises enough you'll get whatever you want?
>>5352196
there was a BBC article where richard o'brien revels having been on HRT for the past 30 years
plus there's that one person from Aerosmith who talked about it explicitly in their autobiography
>>5354180
LOL Dipshit, >>5352807
>This is just you being close minded about gender stereotypes and expectations.
>only have two different sets of gonads and two genders based on those two sexes.
Sounds like he's talking about both gender and sexuality to me. How do you come up with your interpretation:
>he's talking about sex...
BTW: Two Spirit is a relatively new classification that native American who are queer came up with as an umbrella term. It includes both gender and sexuality differences from cis het. Transgenders fit under it. So do cis gays, bisexuals and lesbians.
>>5354244
>one person from Aerosmith
and I nailed his ass when I was young.
>nonbinary
>>5354403
that's nice, dear
>>5354157
>>5354403
jesus christ I'm nonbinary and people like this make me want to puke
Why does it seem that a lot of cultural non binary and such genders dont come from anything like expression. for example. many of the things i noticed were cultures liked to view transpeople as a 3rd/4th gender. this wasnt what transpeople wanted but it was more like no you are not actual men and women. That isnt really "non binary" if they are socially forced into those as accepted roles. other things were like poltical and everything like that.
What about a gender roleless world.
Free of anything non biological for markers of gender. some trends may stay but will not be shamed or thought of different for these. How many of these non binary people would "transition"? But the physically dysphoic transsexual population would still transition
>amab nonbinary
>a tranny in denial
>afab nonbinary
>a phase that will pass
>>5355766
then why have some remained nonbinary for decades? that's a long denial period/phase
>>5355766
>amab nonbinary
>a tranny in denial
n-no
i can't be a girl
i'm to, uh, guy-ey.
>>5355766
>amab nonbinary
>a tranny in denial
p. much
>>5353617
okay but.. . you're the one writing the list, you need to provide evidence and sources or else this is likely to be misinfo
>>5353972
>So why did I get beat up? Why am I teased and harassed for expression both masculine and feminine traits?
probably because you're an insufferable faggot
also society can barely accept that two men or two women can love each other and you think people are automatically going to be okay with you inventing whole extra categories with no real reason other than "i don't wanna be a gurl but i dont wanna be a boy either" (which, honestly, is 100% a matter of aesthetic and personality, so in reality you are being misogynist by thinking of one thing as "feminine" and another as "masculine."
>Such a limited mind. Please explain Two Spirits, and all the other third gender categories.
nice cultural appropriation. it's just as I described. I can be a woman and be more masculine than feminine. it doesn't fucking matter how you present yourself. you're never going to live in a world where everyone wears pronoun nametags and you have to ask what gender they are when you meet them unless youre at an anime convention.
>>5356171
god that photo is a travesty.
>>5355634
[spoiler tag] you are probably the same
>>5356123
please find me someone who has been called "they" for more than five years
>>5356500
okay, you don't have to believe me about it. you're allowed to doubt the list. i simply don't have the energy right now to go back through each person's bio, find the relevant specifics about their genders, and compile it here for you. but many of these people have mention of their genders in their wikipedia articles in the "personal life" section if you actually want to know the truth. i can also list a good number of people typically on these lists that i deliberately did not include because they're not actually confirmed for being nonbinary. that's something that wouldn't take a ton of effort on my part.
>>5356527
different anon here. you're somehow assuming that nonbinary people never have physical dysphoria, or that the social dysphoria that even binary trans people usually experience isn't legitimate. if social dysphoria is entirely based on aesthetic & personality, and it could be eradicated with a mere change in mindset, why do trans people transition socially as well as physically? why not do the much easier thing and continue pretending you're the gender you were raised as while taking hrt and getting surgery to relieve all your dysphoria?
"i'm nonbinary and i want to be called they/them"
>i'm a teenager and i want to be different and fit into a group at the same time
or
>i'm entering early adulthood and I have no long term goals or aspirations, so i want to feel good about myself by becoming a facebookand/or activist. maybe i want to be internet famous for posting photos of myself and whoring out my "unconventional beauty." look at my unshaven legs. i went to an expensive art school but i can't be bothered to look for a job, so i work at starbucks and I have drawn at least one comic on tumblr about featureless gray people experiencing depression/gender dysphoria
>>5356545
i don't know about they, but genesis breyer p-orridge has gone with s/he & h/er for at least 9 years, and a member of my uncle's church choir has used ze/hir for at least 2 decades. actually a lot of older people have gone with ze/hir for a long time rather than they, i'm not sure why.
>>5356578
>physical dysphoria
how can you want a body that doesnt exist in nature?
>social dysphoria
what does this mean? does it mean you don't fit in with men or women? isn't that narrow minded to assume that you're not going to get along with cis women because they are a certain way?
trans people are also going off societal standards of what they perceive their new gender to be, whether or not they acknowledge it.
>>5356610
this is what i imagine old non-binaries to look like
>>5356611
>how can you want a body that doesnt exist in nature?
how can you want anything that doesn't exist in nature? why do we have toilets in our homes and wash our hands after using them? why do we use the internet at all? you must admit it's extremely unnatural.
>>social dysphoria
>what does this mean? does it mean you don't fit in with men or women? isn't that narrow minded to assume that you're not going to get along with cis women because they are a certain way?
it means that when someone is considered a woman or a man, having she or he pronouns used for them, they feel the mental pain that binary trans women feel when they're called men or "sir" or "he".
>trans people are also going off societal standards of what they perceive their new gender to be, whether or not they acknowledge it.
that doesn't negate the fact that social transition is medically recommended as treatment for gender dysphoria.
>>5356635
that's nice, dear
>>5356611
Here's the DSM 5 dianostic criteria Gender Dysphoria:
>Gender Dysphoria in Adolescents and Adults 302.85 (F64.1)
>A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months’ duration, as manifested by at least two of the following:
>1. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
>2. A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics).
>3. A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender.
>4. A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
>5. A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
>6. A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender).
>B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
>http://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596.dsm14
Notice how non-binary people are pretty much explicitly mentioned in 4, 5, and 6. Also, if they want rid of their sex characteristics that's 2. More than enough to be clinically diagnosed as having gender dysphoria.
>>5356335
>2008
>same shit
>>5356692
>dsm 5
>added as effective foot notes to be included
>general term like "some alternative gender"
>>5357670
i have no idea what you're trying to say here. do you actually believe that 7 years is an insignificant amount of time to have a consistent identity, especially when it involves permanent physical transition without regrets? why are your expectations for us so ridiculous? do you expect a trans man who started transitioning 7 years ago to inherently be about to detransition into a radfem any day now?
>>5357679
you can stay in denial all you like, but any rational people with basic reading comprehension know exactly what it means. sorry your opinions don't have medical backing, which i know was vital to many of you.
>>5358357
nope but i am willing to bet that in a few years it will go away from non binary. Cant tell you how many non binary "lesbian" transmen i know. once they grow past the special snowflake part
>>5358363
I have no problem with transpeople just the whole non binary aspect of things. Like it or not there is a huge differance between the gender fuck and social aspects of gender and a person who is transsexual. Playing with gender is just some dumb ass shit that is as pointless as the point it tries to make.
>>5358760
you seem to be completely ignoring what nonbinary gender actually is so you can continue hating it & considering us illegitimate. i'd try to explain to you why you're so wrong, but when there's already explanations in this very thread it really doesn't seem worth it.
>>5352126
Dress seems kind of short, what a slut
