>[There is] something confusing about transgender people and intersectional feminists...
>They claim that gender is a social construct and entirely learned, right? If that's so then how do >they explain transgender people having the "brains of the opposite gender" they were born in? If >gender is in fact neurobiological, doesn't that mean that it isn't a social construct? And if it is just a >construct, doesn't that mean that transgenderism isn't legit because they are just assuming what it >means to be a man or a woman? How come they believe both things to be true at the same time?
Pic related was a response to the question.
Does this accurately describe the situation?
tl;dr
this is a tumblr thing.
>>5334990
What part of this is from tumblr?
>>5334929
i'm not reading all that but it seems like they're talking about judith butlers ideas.
first off, there is no such thing as a man brain or a lady brain, everything is along a bell curve. gender is a social construct that creates an imaginary line down the center of that bell curve, transgender people being the ones who's body's are on the other side of the curve from their brain.
in a perfect, genderless (and completely hyptothetical) world the concept of being transgender would probably not exist since everyone would be free to dress and act however they chose with no social pressure
>>5335037
>in a perfect, genderless (and completely hyptothetical) world the concept of being transgender would probably not exist since everyone would be free to dress and act however they chose with no social pressure
As long as physical sex exists there's at least going to be transsexuals who want to have the body of the opposite sex
>>5335046
oh absolutely. hence the word hypothetical.
maybe when we all get uploaded into the matrix and can choose our ideal bodies and change them at will. I play second life a lot and i dont really see trans people unless its a reflection of their real self.
[spoiler]there are a lot of straight dudes walking around as well hung futa's though so it makes you wonder[/spoiler]
>>5335070
Not him, but hypothetically all of these philosophies matter, since in a hypothetical world they could be true.
tl;dr some terf shit
>>5335075
yup, i know. I just wanted to avoid getting dragged into the grittiness of real life and make my statement clear
>>5335090
TERF implies that radical feminists are intentionally excluding someone, that is that they first decided they "don't like" trans people and then developed a theory to fit that conclusion, when in fact, the theory came first and they just refused to adapt how they see the lived experience of the many (women) to accommodate a narcissistic minority (AGPs).
>>5335126
Thats an awful lot of words to explain why feminism is cancer.
>>5335126
You make it sound like TERFs would be completely okay with non-AGP trannies. But that simply isn't the case. The very idea of transgenderism is incompatible with their ideology, which is that gender is a social construct.
>>5335251
feminism isnt cancer, tribalism, zealotry and a siege mentality are cancer.
It doesnt matter what you believe, its how you act.
>>5335251
What do you think feminism is?
Yeah why is it that the only people who go nuts about "genuine womnhood" are the AGP hons?
Like, does anyone here really give a shit if people call them a trans woman?
>>5335310
Trans women are still "real women". I don't see why any mtf would have a problem with being called a trans women, since that's just what they are. It's the people that call them men that are the problem.
>>5335321
adding on trans sounds like a qualifier that they dont want to be defined by. same reason people say person with a disability instead of disabled person.
I have trouble believing anyone really cares unless you insisted on -always- referring to them as a transwoman instead of just a woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMHaDvHboDs
>These people are called "transgender"
Yeah I agree with that pic.
>>5335037
>in a perfect, genderless (and completely hyptothetical) world
I don't understand this. Do people actually believe this is an obtainable goal?
I get diminishing gender stereotypes, which i support, but a "genderless" society just seems like crazy nonsense.
All over the world there have been males and females with varying masculine and feminine traits. There's definately some overlap and gender fuckery in different cultures throughout history, but masculine and feminine has always been seperate, everywhere.
Pushing for a genderless society is just wild academia theory and literal neocolonialism.
>>5335373
I consider myself a feminist (brace for replies) and I strongly prefer being called a transwoman to being called a woman for two reasons:
1. I will never know what it is like to grow up female I've only been living as a woman for two years, which isn't a decent amount of experience.
2. Cis women will never know what it is like to be trans. Never. There are things we experience that they never will.
>>5335373
Trans is an adjective, like black or tall. Black women and tall women are still women, so are trans women. A trans woman isn't the same thing as a cis women, but both are subsets of the category of women.
>>5335393
Do you even understand what the word hypothetical means?
>>5335412
yes, but it can be used as a qualifier instead of an adjective and makes people feel like that's all people see.
Its like when people say "oh she's my favorite female comedian" instead of just my favorite or one of my favorites. there are some weird assumptions the person can draw from that
not everybody feels this way, obviously>>5335396. i'm just trying to explain why it makes some people feel uncomfortable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdN0dLhPHmc
>>5335288
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/3rkxmy/how_you_guys_helped_me_a_trans_person_realize/
>inb4 ew plebbit
From that thread:
>I think you probably already know this or you wouldn't have posted here, but I want to say it anyway: We here at GC, the big, bad she-wolf (and he-wolf) TERFs, don't hate trans people. This gets said so often everywhere on Reddit and it's just not true. We don't like the sexism that you describe that is promoted by much of the trans community because it's regressive, offensive, and harmful to women. But we don't have anything against individual trans people. We don't want to take away their human rights or see any harm come to them. And TERF was a name given to us; it's not a name we use for ourselves unless we are being sarcastic.
> I definately think some trans people have a genuine type of body dysmorphia, at least from my understanding as someone with BDD, and that's been twisted into "trans women have a female brain" and "gender is innate and forms your personality" type reasoning.
>>5335424
Of course i do. I just think such a hypothetical goal that's so otherworldly is counterproductive.
>>5335474
"Female brain" is the most legit scientific theory of transgenderism though. I'll believe TERFs don't hate trans people when they actually say they support trans people's right to transition and live as their preferred gender, and gender them correctly in conversation. The predominant attitude TERFs seem to have towards trans people is that they don't hate them as individuals, but view them as victims of the "trans agenda". Not hating them as individuals does not mean they're accepting of transgenderism itself to any extent.
>>5335474
>We don't hate transwomen, just the hate against womyn that happens when they group up. And gender dysphoria is maybe kinda real, but it's not innate gender from your lady brain. It's more like feeling fat.
So great. Radical feminists can't even sound nice when they're trying.
>>5335393
>literal neocolonialism.
No, I think it's more like proselytizing. And this isn't any crazier than saying Jesus will come and make a perfect world for us. Feminism could still be bigger than Catholicism if they keep pushing.
>>5335495
If you are talking of the most cited paper in the usual trans defense, it is not that the entirety of the brain is either male or female, but rather it is that specific regions differ in men and women. The paper based on meta-analysis that recently went around was trying to show that.
The issue that they have with the line of thinking "transwomen have female brains" is that it serves to make a distinction where it may not necessarily exist. Typically these distinctions have been made under the justification of "science" to explain a "innate and natural hierarchy" that subjugates a group of people. We have seen a similar situation in the justification of racism.
>>5335572
>If you are talking of the most cited paper in the usual trans defense, it is not that the entirety of the brain is either male or female, but rather it is that specific regions differ in men and women. The paper based on meta-analysis that recently went around was trying to show that.
Yeah, I'm aware it's just a specific region of the brain. Doesn't change the fact that completely dismissing brain sex makes you sound ignorant on trans issues, especially when you do it to claim that trans people's identities aren't legitimate.
>>5335597
http://sexandgenderintro.com/trans-issues-and-gender-identity/
http://sexandgenderintro.com/political-implications/
I want to particularly call attention to:
> “Gender identity” is usually defined as “someone’s internal, personal sense of being a man or a woman“, or “a person’s private sense, and subjective experience, of their own gender”. These definitions are vague and unclear, and so it’s not easy to get a grasp on exactly what it is that is being posited in talk of gender identity. One crucial feature of gender identity, as posited by its proponents, is that it is considered to be entirely independent of both biological sex, and of gendered socialisation.
> a man – can suddenly insist he is a woman and be allowed to speak over and on behalf of those who have been living as women and been socialised as women since birth. By insisting that being a woman is nothing more than a feeling in a person’s head, the notion of gender identity erases and invalidates the experiences of both biologically female women and transsexual women. Both biologically female women and transsexual women should resist the idea that womanhood is nothing more than a state of mind, a feeling in a person’s head, evidenced only by a performative utterance, because such a position has the effect of eradicating the existence of women altogether.
>>5334929
transgenderism is legit because social gender roles, being constructs, are legit existence nonetheless
>>5335680
Gender identity is generally accepted to be a combination of biological sex and socialization. What confuses people is that actual biological aspect of gender identity is in the brain rather than part of one's external anatomy.
And obviously, you don't become qualified to speak as a representative of women the moment you start to identify as one. That's why /lgbt/ doesn't like AGP fetishists, they claim to be women but don't really make any effort to live as such.
>>5335090
that isn't terfism at all.
>>5335704
>Gender identity is generally accepted to be a combination of biological sex and socialization. What confuses people is that actual biological aspect of gender identity is in the brain rather than part of one's external anatomy.
Then at this point is that really identification? I do understand that most people won't recognize a legitimate need for these people to have access to medical care, but when you have people purporting that dysphoria is not a necessity to be trans and then claim have to have a female gender identity, it's a bit strange. I think the important distinction here is in self-identification as a means to be malicious and identification as a means of observing reality, because as true as your definition may be--mainstream transactivism would probably not agree with you.
>>5335381
>Transgender Finishing School: Lessons in Being a Lady
for fuck's sake this is what people mean when they complain about gender role and gender expectation and all of that. the idea of "being a lady" as some sort of list of guidelines for how to dress, talk, and behave. i'm trans myself and it makes me sick. i hate when people talk about things like learning how to be a woman, learning how to dress "like a woman," and so on. there isn't any one way women dress, act, or behave and thinking of being a woman in such stereotypical ways is really gross.
>>5335393
we can separate ideas of "masculinity" and "femininity" from sex. the problem is in assuming what we call masculinity is something inherent to males and femininity as something inherent to females, that masculine interests and behavior is inherent in males and feminine interests and behavior is inherent in females. there's nothing wrong with people having traits we may consider masculine or feminine, it would just be a lot better if we thought of those traits as not relating to somebody's sex but instead as their personality. if we stop thinking of of these things in terms of things being inherently male or inherently female, a lot of people will be more free to be however "masculine" or "feminine" they want without expectations of such things being placed on them because of the sex people think they are
>>5335762
people can feel it makes more sense to be a certain gender socially or they may feel sexual characteristics of their body aren't right (usually what's meant when dysphoria is mentioned). somebody not having dysphoria relating to their body doesn't necessarily mean they're comfortable with being perceived as the gender matching their sex, and while a lot of people here will scream fake trans trender, personally i think that as long as we live in such a gendered society, that's a completely valid issue as well. let they who lives truly free from gender and a gendered-focused society cast the first stone
>>5335920
>Then the issue lies in having gendered expectations, look in the OP's pic related and how it forces those who are uncomfortable in to being "trans"
oh absolutely. i agree 100%
>>5335680
>the effect of eradicating the existence of women altogether.
so? as long as it gets rid of men too. dissolve gender, and then no one has to worry about shit.
>>5335037
>bell curve
is wrong. you have peaks near fully male and fully female, but most of those people have some opposite gender traits so they are not at the absolute end of the scale. There also aren't to many people in the middle so there is a troth there.
Ah, TERFs.
"Stop reducing women to nothing but walking vaginas!" immediately followed by "you can't be one of us because you're not a walking vagina!"
Gender critical feminism is bullshit, and the only good TERF is a dead one.
>>5336194
It's like you didn't even read the thread, but I'll humor you...
>"Stop reducing women to nothing but walking vaginas!"
Problem is, most people define male and female (noticed that I used the SEX terms) by the presence of a particular primary sex characteristic and conflate that to a social role which leads these "TERFs" to say things like
>"you can't be one of us becuase you're not a walking vagina!" (although not in that crude, objectifying manner)
because there are inherent issues with being recognized as a particular sex. By our birth all of us were destined to be treated one way or the other based upon whether we were recognized male or female because expectations are put on us as soon as that fact is recognized. You cannot be one of them because you have not lived their lives. There is particular value in using labels to group people together so that commonalities can be identified, and often (but not always) these commonalities include adversity of simply being female (with all of the expectations that come with it). There are those that were born male, and sufficiently "pass" as female that will, as soon as they "pass" and integrate, experience the issues that come with being socially perceived as a woman (noticed that I used the SOCIAL term instead of the SEX term). The real issue arises when someone who was neither born a woman, nor has taken on the "assigned" social role of a woman comes in and claims identification of that label. It completely destroys its meaning. Since anyone can claim to be a woman, you cannot talk about issues that relate to those perceived as female, or by sex female since the word "woman" is no longer a reliable unit of measure.
Now, in an ideal world, where everyone was equal, this self-identification would not have any issues..but we do not live in such a world.
I don't even care if this was baiting. Also, go read the thread. I know cognitive dissonance hurts, but, learning is good for you.
my afab demi-femme otherkin friend posted that 'all men are rapists' on facebook
>be a trans man
i hate their bullshit tumblr politics and I want to fuck with them. what's the bast way of telling them that their opinions are shit
>>5336818
>what's the bast way of telling them that their opinions are shit
There's no way unless you like getting doxxed and hatemobbed to oblivion, fake rape accusations etc. Anon comments and shit are never open.
>>5336818
there is no way to argue with people who value their feelings over logic and facts. just see them as what they are, subhumans, and carry on with your life.
>>5336818
"You can't win an argument with an idiot, they'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
>>5335680
>By insisting that being a woman is nothing more than a feeling in a person’s head, the notion of gender identity erases and invalidates the experiences of both biologically female women and transsexual women.
i don't understand. transsexual women erase and invalidate the experiences of [...] transsexual women? or is this directed at transtrenders?
>>5336972
Yes. This is directed at transtrenders et al. who don't fit the criteria for what they mock as "truscum" AKA a true transsexual.
