How can a man claim to be a woman? Every human being has only one set of phenomenological experience - their own. The only way you can properly gender this experience is by reference to your physical sex, since you have no access to generic gendered experiences with which to compare and contrast your own.
It is in principle impossible to know what it is to feel like 'a man' or 'a woman' because there is no abstract set of psychological experience that represents either gender, and certainly not one that can be accessed by a human agent.
Transgenderism really confuses me so I'm hoping one of you kind folks can explain it for me. A friend of mine is about to undergo transition so I'd like to have a good understanding of what she's going through.
>>5265837
I'm a tranny and I don't get that either. "feel like I should have been a woman", "want to be woman" yeah but you're not actually a woman until you transition.
>>5265873
>until you transition.
did you even read the OP's post?
Man see other man
muscle, beard, penis
Man want look muscle, beard, penis
>cisgendered (AKA normal)
Man see woman
breasts, soft, vagina
Man want look breasts, soft, vagina
>transgendered
>>5265837
Not personally trans, but I can give a little insight.
>It is in principle impossible to know what it is to feel like 'a man' or 'a woman' because there is no abstract set of psychological experience that represents either gender, and certainly not one that can be accessed by a human agent.
This is where gender norms play a big role in all of this. Feeling like you fit gender norms and expressions (ie desiring to act/dress a certain way, expressing certain psychological processes typically associated with a certain gender) has been the reason people I know have told me as their reasons for transitioning. That and the whole dysphoria thing, which I can't claim to fully understand either, but probably has some dictionary definition.
>>5265882
I'm a cisgendered male and I've never looked at another man and said 'I want that' because...I already have it. You're trying to create an equivalence that doesn't exist, and you're making the offensive claim that being a tranny is some kind of a biological fashion statement.
>>5265837
>write paragraph from privileged perspective about how trans people are deluded
>use bullshit philosophy jargon to sound legitimate
>pretend to be curious, open minded and tolerant
wow, you must be seething deep down, from one gay to another, do us all a favor and drink hemlock mr phenomenological
>>5265901
You haven't answered anything I wrote, you've just attacked me for being 'privileged' (I'll have you know that I'm a disabled black gay from a working class background) and then baselessly accused me of using 'bullshit philosophy jargon' even though every word I used has a precise meaning applicable to my comments.
Grow up.
>>5265882
that's retarded and makes no sense
people do not become men because they see other men and want to look like them
dumbest thing I've ever read
>>5265911
how does being disabled or black change your situation at all, you aren't trans yet you're talking about the topic as if you've got it all figured out
if you've got it all figured out, then why are you asking us? huh?
and yeah, it is bullshit philosophy cuz you're applying science of phenomena like some dipshit fuckboy
you wanna understand it better? go take a sociology course and try not to spend the whole hour talking over the professor and pissing off everyone else in the class you fucking retard
oh, and instead of telling me to grow up you ought to be concerned about how much you regularly embarrass yourself :P
>>5265935
Sociology is the study of society. How on earth would that give me insight into the personal struggles of a tranny?
>>5265911
>I'm a disabled black gay from a working class background
Nobody gives a shit, you pretentious twat
>>5265942
>personal struggles of a tranny
probably shouldn't have phrased it like that, you just revealed to everyone how bigoted you actually are.
>>5265945
What? Is tranny not politically correct any more? It was when I was growing up, and all of my gay and tranny friends use it too.
Your thread doesn't interest me but I just wanted to point out “phenomenological experience” is redundant. An experience can only be proceeded through our senses and the phenomena is itself the very quality of being perceived on a sensable scale; it's the phainomenon, the thing that appears to our eyes.
>>5265954
i thought she was your friend and that you wanted to have a good understanding of what she was going through
but suddenly this is more important, fighting with a stranger online
wonder why you wanted to know
wonder if she even exists
wonder why you posted a cis white male grinning
wonder why what your friends say legitimate use of a word
wonder why everything in what you say consistently sounds like words being spoken from a position of privilege, somehow i doubt that you're black or disabled
>>5265962
If you want to cast aspersions on me and not engage in good faith, I'd rather you just fuck off. You've added nothing to this conversation other than venom, probably because you're an overly defensive tranny who cannot justify your own lies.
>>5265977
ahahaha, im a leo, i only act like that in order to drag pieces of shit like you out into the open
its because of people like you that ive beaten myself up on a daily basis my entire life, so once in a while i need to be selfish
i hope that venom stays with you for as long as you live, because you truly are a degenerate piece of shit
good faith my ass
>>5265954
>It was when I was growing up
It literally was never the politically correct therm anywhere, ever.
It's incredibly difficult to explain to someone who isn't trans. The whole "woman trapped in a man's body" thingy is just a metaphor created so people can maybe get an idea of how painful it is.
The best way I'd describe it is that a certain part of your brain expects a male/female body and your behavior is modeled around that expectation. That's the way I experienced it at least, from childhood onwards. There are a number of studies that possibly substantiate this by showing transsexuals having a certain part of their brain that resembles the opposite sex's but evidence is sparse and people will reject it anyway because they want trans people to have no legitimacy whatsoever. Easier to demonize us that way.
>>5266119
Neurological explanations make no sense because, having a physical basis, it is hard to reconcile this with the absence of trannies through most of human history.
>>5266192
>the absence of trannies through most of human history
Oh man this is industrial grade level stupid
>>5266192
>the absence of trannies through most of human history.
Your ignorance of the cases that survive doesn't mean they didn't exist. Don't you have finals to study for, frosh?
>>5265837
Why do people try to defeat and explain a Physiological medical problem with philosophy?
>>5266226
Everything is ultimately philosophy.
The problem is when your basis for philosophy is frosh tier outdated turn of the century nonsense like phenomenology.
>>5266221
Please find me an example of somebody suffering from 'dysphoria' in seventeenth century England.
>>5266192
There is evidence that they did exist, though. In numerous cultures and civilizations throughout the globe. But trannies are an extremely tiny and marginalized minority so their existence was poorly recorded and evidence is sparse.
If there isn't a neurological basis, then how do you explain the fact that transsexualism is a global phenomenon?
>>5266289
>If there isn't a neurological basis, then how do you explain the fact that transsexualism is a global phenomenon?
Rates of transsexualism vary across the globe, which wouldn't be what you'd see if it really was a neurological condition. Western discourse on "gender" has an increasingly global reach, but it has corrupted some societies more than others.
Besides, all actual brains diverge from their biological sex's "norm" since the norm is just an abstract average. This deviation doesn't command the subject to behave in a certain, irrational way ie dismembering themselves.
>>5266277
That's really not how historical research works. We have the sources we can.
I do have a few cases from the early 19th century for England, multiple cases for 18th century France because they left writing or were big enough, and we have a few roman sources.
Fact is, whe we do have of history, the further we go back, gets extremely sparse really fucking fast.
P.S.: No I'm not about to go dig up old sources from a defunct jstor account just to make a retard on 4chan happy.
>>5266303
>>5266277
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
>Don Pedro Fages was third in command of the 1769-70 Spanish Portolà expedition, first European land exploration of what is now the U.S. state of California. At least three diaries were kept during the expedition, but Fages wrote his account later, in 1775. Fages gave more descriptive details about the native Californians than any of the others, and he alone reported the presence of homosexuality in the native culture. The English translation reads:
I have submitted substantial evidence that those Indian men who, both here and farther inland, are observed in the dress, clothing and character of women - there being two or three such in each village - pass as sodomites by profession.... They are called joyas, and are held in great esteem.[49]
>>5266303
>Rates of transsexualism vary across the globe, which wouldn't be what you'd see if it really was a neurological condition.
If you're going to complain about people's sources, please kindly bring sources of your own, frosh.
Also Thailand doesn't have western gender ideologies, neither does India. What we do know is that asking the actual people involved who are trans rather than parroting the slurs that the mainstream of culture calls them tells us that they are a lot closer to classic transsexuals than some fucking mystical fetish wank.
>>5265837
All animals have a gender identity, including humans, without a gender identity the animal "kingdom" would completely collapse, because none of them would know how to even mate, or how to attract mates.
>>5265890
Holy hell, your autism is bad.
>If I'm rich, I don't want to keep my money
>Because I already have it
>>5266320
Did they mutilate their genitals?
>>5265911
>I'm a disabled
How on earth can you know you're disabled when you've never been enabled?
You sound deluded as fuck.
>>5266336
>What is modern medical technology permitting treatments that didn't exist 300 years ago
Holy hell you're retarded
>>5266303
So what do you think it is exactly? I'm curious.
>>5266303
Yeah, it's really weird.
I mean, for example, in the middle east, there are no gays.
Yet, in the west, we have a lot of gays.
Very strange, and it proves it's not neurological.
>>5266339
to be fair in some cultures there would be some who did do shit to their genitals. It's not like pain and the fact that it can fuck with surgery stops young trans women from trying even today.
>>5266329
My autism is bad? You are literally a tranny
>>5266358
They're two different neurological conditions, please keep up.
Well fuck me for thinking OP was genuinely curious and not just another retarded shitposter.
I have not accepted the validity transgender condition. Let me begin to say I do not mean to offend. I am a very open minded, mostly liberal person and am willing to accept even the wildest of claims given satisfactory evidence. I try to take a pure, critical and logical approach to everything, thus I find myself at some logical uncertainties that must be corrected before I can accept the transgender condition as valid. I will not claim facts, but simply state my own observations.
1. What defines a man and a woman besides the objects/parts?
Society has many expectations of how a man or woman should behave and what a man or woman should be interested in, and these have shown me to change across moments in time and places on earth. Besides the physical parts, I find no one objective attribute that only a man possesses or only a woman possesses which transcends through any time and across any place.
2. What does it mean to "feel like a man/woman"?
As a man, I have many feelings, but the feeling of being "a man" is not one of them. I wouldn't know if being a man feels any different than being a woman since being a man is the only existence I know (similar to what the OP was describing). I don't know my feelings as belonging to a man or woman, but simply as my own, individual feelings.
In closing, if someone could assist me with these two questions and convince me of the validity of the transgender condition, I would happily change my position on this subject. Thank you for your time.
>>5266398
>>5265837
It doesn't seem like there's any definition of gender that makes reference to your internal experience. They're all based on either objective physical properties, or how one fits into the social web. So the fact that men can't know what women "really" experience is irrelevant.
>>5265911
Try not to take it personally dude. Having a philosophical discussion on 4chan is almost impossible, at least on the boards I frequent; most people just don't have the requisite background experience with philosophical argumentation. I once cited a thought experiment from the SEP to back up a point I was making and the person's only response was "that's bullshit".
You might try reddit communities like /r/philosophy or /r/askphilosophy, the people there have a more academic bent (they tend to have nazi mods though).
>>5266403
This is my first time making that post. I just finished typing it.
>>5266398
So you don't mind losing your penis?
Ok.
>>5266439
I would not want to harm any part of my body.
>>5266442
It wouldn't be harming your body.
>>5266448
It would.
>>5266448
To lose your penis, no other changes, is a harm. To become a fully-functioning woman, indistinguishable from a cis woman, is arguably not. I think you mean the second thing, rather than the first.
>>5266477
harm
hɑːm/
noun
noun: harm
1.
physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.
>>5265890
it is a biological fashion statement!
>>5265935
lel your education is shit
>>5266012
so you are subscribing to a censorship program? Good! They need fuckwits like you! lel feygit
>>5266498
It's not an injury.
Moving the goal post isn't gonna work.
If you say you don't feel like a man, you don't mind losing any or all of your sex characteristics.
>>5266597
you don't seem to know what an injury is. Maybe you should slice open your arteries and claim you're fine
>>5266601
Having surgery to fix a problem is not an injury.
>>5266605
so you're also saying those that want to have arms or legs amputated are just having problems that they need fixing?
>>5266630
No.
Are you retarded?
Not like I need to ask that question to know the answer, though.
>>5266605
Having a penis isn't a problem, your mental illness is. Seek serious, scientific, politcally incorrect therapy.
Every human as a set of masculine and feminine features and traits, or male and female traits, or solar and lunar traits, whatever you wish to call them.
Normal development consist of the thought process of wondering what it's like being the opposite gender. It's a thought that has crossed most peoples mind at one point or another.
In the mind of the the trans however, this thought becomes a voice, they compartmentalize it into an entity, they separate their body from their mind. This is not a bad thing, it's a thing many people do. It's a practice common in shamanic tradition.
We need to discuss the shamanic issue further in regards to trans because anyone that has actually spoken to a real shaman, not the types you find at alternative fairs, but people that have inherited the tradition through their communities such as in Siberia, or many places in South-America, places that still have shamanic practices.
Trans people need to fully realize that what they are hearing is just one of many voices. Their vocation to chance their body to fit their mind is spiritual, not temporal.
This is why transitioning usually never brings happiness to those that go through with, and the high suicide rates. These individuals are simply not taught about the world of oscillation and how to use it to their advantage.
Instead of feeling like man/woman trapped inside a woman/man body, they should start considering that they are a body trapped with many voices, some that will steer you right and some that will steer you wrong. Never fully to be trusted but never to be ignored either.
>>5266684
>yeah bro ayahuasca in the jungle with joe rogan
how pretentious can you be holy shit.
>>5266697
Did you want to just assess your already established value system to me, or did you actually want to discuss the point of my post. Because I basically have the cure for transgenderism and its yours to take or leave, but it doesn't involve yage or Joe Rogan.
>>5266683
It's not me that said I don't mind losing sex organs.
Go and complain about that anon who said he doesn't feel like a man.
>>5265890
>>5265911
>>5265837
We're talking about biology and medicine.
You went on a limb and preached about how treating inborn endocrine and neurological disorders is wrong because you feel like it.
You aren't privileged, you're just pretentious enough to think that medicine and the way people live their lives is wrong because you don't like it. It's infantile, not philosophical.
>>5265942
That's your problem. A pseudo science like sociology doesn't superceded medicine or medical needs.
Just cause you deem people taking insulin when they need it decadent doesn't mean it's wrong.
I understand trans people with dysphoria, but I really don't get those who claim trans status and don't have it. Can anyone here explain?
>>5266684
>Specifically, in a 304 voxel sized cluster affecting the left pre- and postcentral gyri a 32 voxel sized cluster affecting the left posterior cingulate, calcarine gyrus, and the precuneus, showed lower GM volume in MTF transgender patients and female controls compared to FTM transgender patients and male controls. The opposite direction of differences could be observed in a 123 voxel sized cluster in the right occipital lobe involving the middle and inferior occipital, the fusiform, and the lingual gyri, in a 42 voxel sized cluster affecting the right inferior temporal gyrus, where regional GM volume proved to be higher in MTF transgender patients and female controls compared with FTM transgender patients and male controls /PMC3877116/
>Compared to men and women, MtFs showed differences in a neural network including the medial prefrontal gyrus, the insula, and the precuneus when responding to male vs. female voices. With increased voice morphing men recruited more prefrontal areas compared to women and MtFs, while MtFs revealed a pattern more similar to women. On a behavioral and neuronal level, our results support the feeling of MtFs reporting they cannot identify with their assigned sex. /PMC4222943./
>We explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization...To date, this is the largest genetic study of transsexualism conducted. We observed a significant association between longer AR gene polymorphisms and male-to-female transsexualism. Longer CAG repeats in the AR gene lead to reduced binding of the AR protein to co-activator, due to its inhibitory interaction with the receptor, resulting in less effective testosterone signalling, a mechanism typically involved in masculinization of the brain during early development /PMC3402034/
Why not stick to testable science rather than shoving your religious shit onto everyone?
>>5266747
Your attached study seems to suffer from observer effect. The people conducting it only tested something on people they knew they already would find it in, and so they did.
>>5266762
Observer effect again, transgenders are being studied and they find scientific evidence there is something wrong in them.
This proves nothing. Why don't you stop shoving your religious science shit on everyone, and start understanding life is more complex than that.
>>5266763
>>5266771
That's deductible reasoning. If we use what we already know about natural law to make inferences and test it, we can confirm the models built. If reasoning says an inability to carry out insulin signal transduction somewhere along the lines is what causes diabetes, then you can start testing that on your rats and confirming in people.
Medicine shouldn't take a back seat to your social engineering. I'm glad the world treats sociology as a joke.
>>5266818
The observer effect has nothing to do with social engineering. I find it funny how a movement prefaced by social engineering now clings to science and use the very arguments that are used against itself.
Your attached studies and numbers only proves that in those individuals tested, they found something that proves that these are individuals that confirms a medical reasoning for transgenderism. Good. Now can it be found it people that are not transgendered, bigger tests need to be conducted on a larger selection before these tests means anything.
Have you ever had an honest conversation with someone cis, about whether they ever feel like their assigned gender? Answer seriously?
>>5266830
>Now can it be found it people that are not transgendered, bigger tests need to be conducted on a larger selection before these tests means anything.
That's not how things work, you can't prove that something doesn't exist.
>Have you ever had an honest conversation with someone cis, about whether they ever feel like their assigned gender? Answer seriously?
Everyone feels like their assigned gender, unless they are trans.
Nobody would willingly go on cross sex hormones, or get SRS, or a beard, or grow breasts, because that doesn't belong to their gender identity.
>>5266830
You would be implying that biochemistry and signaling works in a radically different way for each person. That's obvious nonsense when we all are subject to the same natural laws. And we do know actually.
We've carried out countless biomarker studies on things like 2d4d throughout the population. Most people had normal endocrine signaling in the womb, that's not the case with transsexuals.
It's social engineering because you're insisting your manifesto should superceded the medical needs of people. Only someone truly deluded would force people to abandon the most statistically successful treatment people have and deprive others of their bodily autonomy because of their personal feelings. The government shouldn't be forcing your infantile morality onto others.
No honest conversation can justify depriving others of their bodily autonomy and medicine.
>>5266859
>That's not how things work, you can't prove that something doesn't exist.
That's not what I said, I said you have shown a study with too small of a sample size. In order for the study to be valid it also has to be shown the opposite in cisgendered people.
>Everyone feels like their assigned gender, unless they are trans.
This is where you are wrong. Sometimes I feel I have a very female mind, and other times my mind is very male. I'm a cis male. I know what these vocations are.
I know men that are cis males but connect better with women, because the are dandies and love women and want to be around women.
You have such a narrow view of this whole thing because you set your mind on being trans and no one in the world is going to change that or question it, so you learn and study it daily in order for you to keep convincing yourself through data and arguments how real it is. that's fine, it's a free world, I'm not going to stop you. but there is an alternative.
>>5266870
I'm not insisting anything, you are the one insisting there is only one way to fix this and that is your way. That's all nice and dandy, but not understanding the ancestral spirits of your mind and taking them where they want you to go is a dangerous risk for yourself and humanity. You are not a separate individual, as above so below.
>>5266908
>not understanding the ancestral spirits of your mind and taking them where they want you to go is a dangerous risk for yourself and humanity.
Say what you want about your religion, but it doesn't justify taking away everyone else's bodily autonomy nor does it turn getting medical help into a sin. If I use money to make sure my secondary traits are feminine, then that isn't your business or the state's business.
>>5266932
My religion? I have no religion, but I'm starting to think you have one. Nowhere have I said that I want to take away anyones rights to do with their body as they want, I'm just saying there is another way.
>>5266908
>Sometimes I feel I have a very female mind, and other times my mind is very male.
What?
How do you feel you have a "female mind"?
That you better explain.
>I know men that are cis males but connect better with women, because the are dandies and love women and want to be around women.
Your point being?
They are still men, and feel like men.
>>5266908
What
First off in the vocal recognition study, the sample size isn't small at all for a neuro imaging study. It is a large enough sample size that statistical noise is small enough to make meaningful observations.
Second, they did find different traits in cis people--regardless of whether they were straight,lesbian,gay, cis people showed the same range of results. Lesbians, who tend to be more "masculine souls" or whatever fucking neoshaman shit you're asspulling, have the same range of neurology as straight women, as well as trans women of both sexualities. Men and trans men had the same range.
I'm getting the sense you didn't read the study at all and generally don't understand sample sizes.
>>5266999
I work in fields that are considered female oriented and feminine. Sometimes I know intuitively what to do better than women, one of the fields is working with children and I can have a more feminine care than I seen most females have.
I often find myself thinking more like the women I know than the men I know, I recognized this early on and fully acknowledge to myself that I don't have one mind I have several, a masculine part and a feminine part. I don't let either take control of the other.
I've spoken to my cis male friends about this and many report the same thing, they sometimes feel like they have a female mind and sometimes a male mind. This is not as uncommon as you think most people just never talk about such private things, the ones that do are usually trans and they convince themselves and others that they need to transition.
>They are still men, and feel like men.
but not always. all the men I know have felt or feels inferiority to other males at some point/points. They want bigger dicks, more muscle, less fat, less boobs, to be taller, to be shorter. No one is satisfied with their bodies and wants some thing changed. You've just amped that up to an extreme.
>>5266192
>absent from history
Here are marble statues of trans women from Ancient Greece.
>>5267063
hermpharodites, not trans. the alchemical symbol of perfection. see, this is why the trans issue should not be discussed without the undertone of shamanism and spirituality. the scientific angle is just silencing any debate.
>>5267046
Sometimes filling feminine gender roles does not mean you have a female mind you twit. Neuro studies show gay men, who are often more feminine than straight men, still have the same range ofa male dimorphic neurology. Trans women show female dimorphism.
You're projecting your gender role bullshit on our instinctive female drive. We are not the same kind of person.
>this whole thread
>>5267090
Filling feminine gender roles, I'm not talking about roles. I'm speaking about action, not a role. You have all these arguments built up whenever you hear or read one word, you know exactly which argument to build up. You never let your guard down and you never want to debate the issue, why do you even go into threads like these. To educate the dumb masses of the true scripture. Because it sure as hell isn't to debate an issue.
>>5267115
Good job ignoring my arguments to make an obtuse red herring. Your 'feminine actions' in good childcare do not make you have a female mind. As a feminine cis man you would test in the same neurological dimorphic range as masculine men.
![Anasyromenos_statuette,_Rome_art_market[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Btu5PVV.jpg "Anasyromenos_statuette,_Rome_art_market[1].jpg")
>>5267063
pretty sure this image was photoshopped
i do understand what point you're trying to make though
>>5266192
sheltered as F U C K
>>5265837
By this logic, how can cis people exist? How is it possible to say that the gender experience you have of being a man or woman has anything at all in common with other men or women?
>>5267070
So then using medicine to alter your body towards something like that is wrong how?
>>5267046
You don't have a "feel like I have a female mind" just because you think you're feminine, and know how to "think femininely".
Unless you want breasts, a small female frame, vagina, no facial hair, a light voice, and etc, you don't feel female.
>>5266303
>Rates of transsexualism vary across the globe
Rates of transsexual acceptance varies across the globe
(we dont know yer trans unless ya feel comfortable enough to tell everyone)
>>5267177
I'm not a feminine cis man, I'm very masculine. Life is fluctuating, your thoughts are just thoughts, you can consider them voices and you can listen to them and learn from them or they can become your demons and you'll be their slave.
Everyone has a female and male mind, everyone. It's basic psychology.
>>5267329
So wrong on so many levels. We have a thing called mirror neurons, these neurons makes men living with women feel their menstrual cycle or men getting side effects of pregnancy from living with a pregnant woman.
You have such a low grasp of what life and the universe is, that's ok. But it's sad that you are so adamant about your life choice not being a choice, your hell not being your hell.
>>5267316
Because you have in you abilities that can heal humanity, instead you are dragging down humanity by obeying the voices that tells you that you are a woman. You are denying 4.5 billion years of evolutionary biologically uniqueness by disobeying your body and wanting to figuratively transform it, instead of transforming your mind. That is the real sickness of individuality in todays world.
Do as you wish, but there are other ways.
>>5267386
>We have a thing called mirror neurons, these neurons makes men living with women feel their menstrual cycle or men getting side effects of pregnancy from living with a pregnant woman.
Which has nothing to do with this.
You don't feel like you have a female mind at times, and you still feel male, same with all your other autistic male friends.
>>5267386
>Because you have in you abilities that can heal humanity, instead you are dragging down humanity by obeying the voices that tells you that you are a woman. You are denying 4.5 billion years of evolutionary biologically uniqueness by disobeying your body and wanting to figuratively transform it, instead of transforming your mind. That is the real sickness of individuality in todays world.
The brain is part of the body too. And this form of wanting to change your body is biological in origin, it's not just an idea that you get from society. Why should we obey some parts of our body but not others? In this case, transforming the mind WOULD be a biological transformation as well, and one which is far more difficult to do than changing the rest of the body.
>>5266747
>>5266762
I know you think this all sounds really impressive, but merely observing differences in brain pattern doesn't justify the kind of fetishistic body transformation that trannies advocate. There's absolutely no reason that MtF trannies can't just be feminine men. You are mistaking fact for norm, dummy.
>>5266859
>Everyone feels like their assigned gender, unless they are trans.
I'm cis and I don't feel like my assigned gender or not feel like my assigned gender. This is a totally made up issue. I feel like *me* and I have a male body. I can't imagine being so credulous as to fall for some fiction that my mental experiences must conform to something called "masculine" or "feminine", and I pity the poor trannies who do.
>>5266932
Nobody wants to stop you, tranny. We just don't want to associate with you after you've done it or have sex with you. Enjoy a lonely life.
>>5267063
Those are natural born he-shes, not trannies you fucking retard. They weren't shoving implants into men or fashioning fake cocks for women in ancient Greece, you cretin.
>>5267245
That's precisely my point. The very concept of 'gender' is a fraud. It was invented by the left to justify deviancy and critique the rationally sexed division of labour.
>>5267336
No, trannies are uniformly hated around the globe and they always will be.
>>5270263
How are things like sexed bathrooms and clothing 'rational'?
>>5265837
not reading any reply.
you're assuming gender is 100% internal, it's not, it's social, otherwise we couldn't learn it
and we do learn it, because every society has a unique sense of gendered norms.
young children learn gender, then later they learn to identify with one or the other to varrying degrees and more-than-less stick to that gender throughout their lives.
while it's common for children to be encouraged (by their parents mostly) to identify with the gender associated with their biological sex they don't always pan out that way since (aside from the minor influence of sex hormones) there is no biological connection between biological sex and the gendered traits we associate with them.
>>5267093
thanks 4 the new pic dude i hope i get the chance to use it
>>5266403
>>5266439
>trans people who are incapable of having a sane, rational argument
>"JUST BELIEVE WHAT I SAY!"
>>5270339
Because men and women are physiologically different and thus need different facilities and different cuts in clothing. How can you not recognise this? You trannies really are too much.
>>5270346
If gender is totally social, would you admit that trannyism is deviant and a result of faulty parenting?
If it is totally social, can't it be effectively policed through therapy and an economy of social esteem that militates against deviants?
>>5270641
>different facilities
In what way? Sure, males can use urinals and females cannot, but is there really any difference between male and female toilets?
>different cuts in clothing
Sure, there's different body shapes, but how come certain types of clothing are exclusively for one gender? How come its considered unacceptable for a male to wear a dress, even if it's one made for a male body?
>>5270641
>men and women are physiologically different
>which is why today's women's clothes would have been men's clothes 200 years ago
>>5270670
The facilities are different because women need toilets more than men need toilets, so the toilet:urinal ratio needs to be different.
There's of course the additional factor of it being basically inappropriate for the two genders to do these things together, but you trannies are lawless and will never acknowledge that.
Men don't wear dresses because they have hairy legs and they don't have soft skin. And before you say it, I don't care if you can find one or two exceptions to this rule - in social philosophy we reason on the basis of focal cases, not deviancy.
>>5270761
Men didn't wear dresses and skirts 200 years ago you fucking retard. Read a history book.
>>5270762
>There's of course the additional factor of it being basically inappropriate for the two genders to do these things together, but you trannies are lawless and will never acknowledge that.
Why is it basically inappropriate? I suppose you could say its about how we see nudity as sexual, but most bathrooms have stalls anyway and gay people are allowed to use the bathrooms of their genders.
>Men don't wear dresses because they have hairy legs and they don't have soft skin.
So is it that people have grown up conditioned to find hairy legs + dresses unattractive? Why don't men shave their legs?
>>5270766
You realize that women don't wear dresses and skirts anywhere near as much nowadays, yes?
Also most modern women's cuts are extremely different from what they would have been a few hundred years ago, same with men's. It's dictated by fashion, not by some deep appeal to biological functionality.
>>5270762
Full body epilation was the fashion for men in latin countries from the height of the roman empire to more or less the french revolution.
>>5270766
Maybe not 200 years ago, but historically (and even today in some non-western cultures) men have been known to wear clothing that would today be classified as dresses or skirts. And high heels were originally for men. There is a definite pattern of old elements of male fashion being recycled as female fashion.
>>5270771
>You realize that women don't wear dresses and skirts anywhere near as much nowadays, yes?
That's because of social engineering, and it's part of why we now have trannies. Human beings trying to play God.
>>5265837
*insert any medical condition ever* How can you claim to have it?
>>5270777
That's because of climate, nothing more and nothing less.
>>5270787
Climate explains ALL of that? It might explain why men once worse "dresses", but doesn't explain why the practice is abandoned. And it doesn't explain how high heels (and even tall flat boots now) have gone from male to female elements of clothing.
>>5270782
>changing fashions is social engineering
Please kill yourself. Preferrably painfully.
>>5265837
Here's a scientific study for you to read.
http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956(10)00158-5/abstract
>>5271061
All of this brain scanning shit has been refuted over and over again in this very thread. Thanks for once again proving that trannies are incapable of reading anything that doesn't justify their sick fetish.
Here you go trying to say that everyone only has their own experiences, and then you try to argue you know the nuances of someone else's. Shit, you're dumb as fuck. You don't even understand that language is only a shallow approximation of the concepts that we wrestle with and compute, and that no thought can ever truly go from one mind to another. This is on a grade defined by the subjectivity of the thought, too.
How are you going to be such a hypocrite, OP?
>>5265837
Regard it like this:
We are a union of our bodies and minds, the latter being set in our brains and being the sum of it's biological actions that in turn make up this system of perception and reaction we call our personalities. For an individual, the mind is the dominant factor in perceiving self and others, with the body being secondary. There is of course also a hierarchy of senses, with our visual sense pretty far up the list.
Transgenderism can be understood as a condition where the mind and it's home understand themselves (/are possibly coded) as one gender while the body shows the opposite form of dimorphism. For the person affected, it manifests as an uncertain dread or even the feeling of being victim of a crippling physical deformity. While the individual can't "really know" the experience of the opposite sex to start with, they can very well know that factors interconnected to their birth sex causes them distress and doesn't align with their own experience. I would argue that most people figure out they're transsexual when trying to pinpoint the source of their distress (which is a really mild word for how it actually manifests) and noticing it's direct connection to gendered attributes. Since the mind is more dominant in self-perception than the body, it just makes sense for an affected person to change their body accordingly to lessen their symptoms.
However, another individual wouldn't see the mind when looking at a person; The dominant trait for recognition is, since we rely so much on our visual sense, what you see, thus, the body. For an outsider, it might look more like a healthy body with a diseased mind. That might even be true, but it really doesn't make any difference since there hasn't been successful treatment to mold to mind to represent the body, while there have been successfull ways to do the opposite, which effectively lessens the distress and pain of the afflicted individual.
wish I could bleed..
>>5271350
Really, regarding afflicted people as the gender their brain is dead set on interpreting itself as isn't so much an absolute statement as it's a friendly and well mannered attempt to alleviate the symptoms of their condition. While it might be hard to understand from the outside why the afflicted don't try to mold their mind to suit their body, in the end, the body feels more like a vessel for the mind than the other way round, which makes this prospect easy to suggest by outsiders but sounds akin to suicide to an afflicted person- rebuilding their personality from scratch and all.
Issues that come with this disconnect could be depression, depersonalisation, what have you. So, maybe they can't really know the experience they crave, but they do understand that their birth gender experience is the source of their symptoms.
>>5271253
Uhh...No, it hasn't. The OP has outright dismissed them with pseudo intellectual bullshit and armchair psychology.
And no one has cited any evidence to refute the findings of those studies.
>>5266398
I'm still here, by the way.
>>5265837
The reason anons are getting mad and attacking you instead of answering your question is because there is no answer. Trans people are mentally ill.
>>5271368
>pseudo intellectual bullshit and armchair psychology
Point out what in his post constitutes that? It sounds like you're just mad that he threw in a few big words. What he said is sound; you can't "feel" like the opposite sex. It's illogical. You can envy them and want to be that, but you can't know what it feels like to be something you're not.
>>5276819
>What he said is sound; you can't "feel" like the opposite sex. It's illogical. You can envy them and want to be that, but you can't know what it feels like to be something you're not.
I agree.
It's purely psychological.
>>5276819
>you can't "feel" like the opposite sex.
You can definitely feel that your body is wrong and that it should be different in a specific way, and that's all that "feeling like the opposite sex" really means.
Transgender women are women born with a y chromosome.
>>5276863
Women don't have penises and Y chromosomes. I hope in time you realize how crazy you are and stop pretending.
>>5276819
all i know is that ive felt like this since i was 5 years old. guess im crazy :^)
>>5276819
Having gender dysphoria =//= feeling like the opposite sex.
And even if what he said is true, it doesn't disprove that gender dysphoria has a neurological basis, which was my main point to begin with.
Few trannies I know actually believe that they feel like the opposite sex. If they did, then they wouldn't feel the need to transition. The OP is framing gender dysphoria in his own skewed and biased context that is obviously not true, and has ignored or dismissed anyone who's tried to explain how gender dysphoria actually works and what it feels like for them.
Also, his ranting about shit like "ancestral spirits of the mind" and "mirror neurons" are clearly pseudo scientific bullshit. And it's become more and more apparent throughout the thread that he's just spouting masturbatory philosophical drivel and doesn't have a fucking clue what he's talking about.
>>5276897
>Having gender dysphoria =//= feeling like the opposite sex
Yes it does, if you're true trans anyway. I notice a lot of fake trans who wait until they're older to transition say they never felt like they were female mentally they just wanted a females body which sounds creepily like a man with a fetish. Most of them are trans lesbians too, go figure haha.
>>5276845
>You can definitely feel that your body is wrong and that it should be different in a specific way
Like pain?
>>5266398
So I can try to answer these if you want, as far as my experience has been:
>1. What defines a man and a woman besides the objects/parts?
There is a definite difference in social, and psychological approach in general. This stuff is not properly documented yet, but it can be seen in how children socialize in various societies time and time again. I definitely resonated with this, because as a child I didn't even question that I was a girl. I had been told I was a boy, but I knew otherwise and just hung out with the girls and had a great time up until puberty made things super weird. There is even some possible differences in how men and women approach things spiritually, but that is even less well documented than the others I mentioned.
>2. What does it mean to "feel like a man/woman"?
I can honestly say I don't get this one either. I mean, I can tell you I never felt or thought that I was a guy. I felt uncomfortable for a long time after puberty went on, but it didn't make me think or feel that I was anything but myself.
I guess the closest I can come to understanding this is that maybe it is that you feel more comfortable when you feel that you are the gender you see yourself as. Maybe this is what they are referring to when they say they feel like a guy or a girl. When they feel uncomfortable they are feeling like the other one, and when they are happy it is when they are feeling like the one they know themselves to be. This is just conjecture though, as I only have myself as a basis here.
>>5276891
What is your feeling? Why do you interpret it as so?
>>5277065
i always felt like a girl growing up and told my parents that i was a girl. around 8 i still held the same feelings and started to feel like i should have a vagina instead of a penis and sometimes i would somehow physically feel a sensation of one. hrt and srs helped me a lot.
>>5277080
told my parents at 5 years old *
>>5276897
I'm back again, so gender dysphoria is very real but mirror neurons are pseudo scientific bullshit. Yikes!
It's becoming clear to me that many mtf transgenders latch onto science, because some research papers have been released that proves one certain point, so each and every time their dichotomy gets challenged they bring these up, mostly like a christian person refers to their bible.
You think ancestral spirits are bullshit? Do you even know the history of your condition, do you know of shamanism, of two-spirits, the purpose of cross dressing within shamanism, so on and so forth?
I understand deeply that you feel insulted in this matter, you have convinced yourself in such a high degree that this is who you are and what the solution is, you guard every aspect of your theory, spending days and hours attempting to find an explanation for the weaknesses in the wall should someone attack there.
The point still remains, you have a choice, you either follow your thoughts until they become voices, or your learn the song that everyone hears. It's up to you.
>>5277963
Nice ad hominem, and why does this only apply to mtf trans people? You do know FtM trans exist right?
We're discussing a medical problem. You can call it whatever you want or rationalize it however you like but at the end of the day, it's still a medical issue, and you're expected to corroborate your claims with facts and evidence. I'm sorry that you can't do that.
You're lecturing me about history? Earlier in the thread you outright denied that trans people existed in ancient cultures and now they suddenly do exist because it's convenient to your argument? You can't have it both ways.
As far as having this condition, no, I don't have a choice. Just as you don't have a choice in being born male or female. I've been dealing with this since I was 4 and I've done all kinds of stupid shit to try and "learn the song everyone else hears". Even tried conversion therapy and they just talked me up with the same type of vague and unscientific self help bullshit that you're spouting. It didn't help at all and it even made my problems worse for a period.
Feel free to ignore my reply, I'm done humoring you.
>>5278410
>You're lecturing me about history? Earlier in the thread you outright denied that trans people existed in ancient cultures and now they suddenly do exist because it's convenient to your argument? You can't have it both ways.
You aren't only talking to one person, you dummy.
>>5277963
You're telling people they're wrong for trusting the scientific consensus,why?
>>5283617
There is no "scientific consensus". There is a very small, politically correct, intellectually disreputable enclave in the medical community who study these issues obsessively and without dispassion to reach certain conclusions. Most of the scientific community pay them no heed and if they do investigate, they are disturbed by the paucity of research.
>>5284347
>the truth is out there! the sjws and feminisits and jews just bully scientists and destroy and hide all the research that doesn't agree with their conspiracy to destroy american so that's why all the evidence seems to be on their side and I can only point to outdated defunct research and borderline deliberate misinterpretations of actual research mixed in with armchair psychology/philosophy!!!
>>5270209
>There's absolutely no reason that MtF trannies can't just be feminine men
Besides all the actual stats that don't count because they don't agree with your feels about "le degenerates XD".
Without transition trannies tend to become burdens on society from the issues they have and commit suicide in large numbers.
With transition trannies tend to become productive members of society that more than pay back the cost of their treatment in taxes and have issues and suicide rates in-line with the general population.
They don't respond to any other treatment we've found and we don't abandon effective treatments just because they make upset some idiot on 4chan, if you have some groundbreaking new research suggesting an effective alternative treatment then you could probably get some kind of award.
OP, I'm trans myself, and I think you came in here with an interesting question that could've lead to a good discussion. Going with the whole "but you can't directly compare it to women" thing is a good point, better than any other points that people bring up, and it's clear that you're actually interested in discussion and hearing what people have to say.
This thread is an embarrassment. This board is an embarrassment, this whole site's an embarrassment. Please don't let this ruin your taste for any discussion along this line.
Just...I dunno. Get out of here, go somewhere else with this. Really, there isn't anywhere that's very good for discussion along this line, so...I dunno. Just go somewhere else, little could be worse than this godawful board.
>>5288188
Thanks. I'll keep my views about this to myself in future if I'm just going to encounter the unreasoned bigotry I've found here.
>>5288188
>it's clear that you're actually interested in discussion
Except it's really very obvious by OP's second post that he isn't.
>>5265924
but you do subconsciously emulate other people of your sex
a lot of trans people have a mismatch there even in childhood, I was always emulating my mother and sister
>>5295163
You're responding to OP, who was responding to himself.
>>5295181
Wrong, tranny.
>>5265911
don't pretend to be black on the internet
>>5270777
>And high heels were originally for men.
No, you remedial cretin. Men have never worn anything recognizable as what we call "high heels" now, I hate this myth. It was briefly popular (circa Louis XIV's middle age) to wear cavalryman's heels on civilian shoes; they were like regular heels on men's shoes now but a bit higher to hook into the stirrup better. They were more like platform shoes than high heels really.
The high heels women wear started out as a way to give 19th century prostitutes an attractive ballerinaesque en-pointe posture, which is the real transmission vector of importance and interest: a lot of women's clothing started out as whore uniform.
>>5271350
>That might even be true, but it really doesn't make any difference since there hasn't been successful treatment to mold to mind to represent the body, while there have been successfull ways to do the opposite, which effectively lessens the distress and pain of the afflicted individual.
It's necessarily true, just as it isn't an affliction of the body that it isn't Napoleon even though you think you're Napoleon. The fact that there has not yet been a successful medical treatment for transsexuality or Napoleonism doesn't mean surgery is justified, just that more resources should be expended to develop medication.
And if this turns out to be impossible, surgical/hormonal treatment would still be wrong. Even very great suffering is no excuse for mendacity and actively tricking others. Deciding that it is is socially destructive and malignant.
>>5300093
It had a heel and it was high. It's all arbitrary. Why are heels for women. There is no objective reason it just looked good so they started wearing it and then men being as insecure as they are stopped wearing it because the women were wearing it. The story of every female fashion ever. Thigh high boots were a staple of the military now men won't touch them because they are solidly womenswear. Sandals are slowly going the same way also.
>>5265837
I like the way you asked this question!
>>5300103
You don't have such a thing as intersex conditions that make you be part napoleon though.
That's the sort of argument you could make only if you wanted to force everyone to ignore biomedical science
>surgical/hormonal treatment
Why? Studies say bioidentical hormones are no more dangerous than placebo. And people who get surgery improve to doing statistically the same as the general population.
The fact you want to march in and demand medicine stop practicing it's most effective tools simply because of your feelings is beyond me.
That's the sort of insanity they practice in North Korea, maybe you'd fit in there better, no?
>>5265924
>be FtM visiting this convo
>literally became a man because I saw them and wanted to be one
