Cis lesbian here. Why do transwomen negate the fact that they were socialized male and have privilege in that regard the same way cis men do?
How come they are more "disprivileged" than cis-women when cis-women were the ones who were told growing up they couldn't be doctors/astronauts/etc because that's "a job for men", directed away from STEM, had grades lowered if they were ugly, etc.
Source for the last claim:
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/inside_higher_ed/2016/01/more_attractive_female_students_enjoy_higher_grades_in_the_classroom.html
Why do transwomen think they're so much more "oppressed" than cis women when they got all of the benefits of growing up? How come transpeople don't understand that the formative years are some of the most important years of ones life especially in terms of future career success?
>>5732264
why do you think that being trans doesn't have a very large negative impact on a person's formative years?
>>5732264
A lot of trans women are abused and bullied during childhood for failing to conform to the expectations of proper male behavior. And whatever privilege they have from being born male is pretty much lost once they start transitioning. They may keep certain benefits of their former privilege (better careers, etc) but that's not really the privilege itself - it's more like privilege is currency used to buy those things, when they transition all that currency becomes worthless, but they get to keep the things they previously bought with it.
> caring this much about oppression points
> > >/tumblr/
Because they make less money than cis women, are taken less seriously, lose their families more often, experience higher rates of homelessness, unemployment, suicide, prostitution, abuse, neglect, justice system discrimination, mental disorders, and are in every measurable way worse off than cis women by a long shot?
>>5732264
Feminine males and trans females are less privileged than cis females, regardless it they are gay or straight. This is fact.
>https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/lgbt/news/2010/06/21/7980/gay-and-transgender-youth-homelessness-by-the-numbers/
>http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
>http://www.transequality.org/issues/housing-homelessness
>http://www.nhchc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/in-focus_transgender_sep2014_final.pdf
>>5732319
the better careers thing is unlikely as transitioning
a) takes time in which most people won't be focused on really pushing their career
b) means that it's more difficult to get a job/high chance of having to leave "successful" job gained by le mail privilege
> how is x group less privileged than cis females?
Well thats easy, anon, any group is less privileged because cis females are the most privileged group of individuals there are.
The only thing holding you back now is your own fee fees and biological inferiority
The biggest issue that cis women have to face is getting catcalled in the street and putting up with dudebros. How is this comparable to being trans?
Muh oppressions!
How dare you claim muh oppressions!
I am the most oppresioned HOW DARE YOU
>>5732334
Yeah, that's mainly for those who transition late in life after establishing careers. Even they lose their male privilege when they transition, and unless they pass they end up with less privilege than cis people of either sex.
>>5732333
Trips for truth.
>Why do transwomen think they're so much more "oppressed" than cis women when they got all of the benefits of growing up?
Because, per capita, cis women don't suffer unemployment, homelessness, or violent assault at rates close to that of trans women? When systemic oppression forces you out of menial jobs like McDonald's and call center work to instead take up sex work, you can't get much lower in society.
>>5732264
>How come they are more "disprivileged" than cis-women when cis-women were the ones who were told growing up they couldn't be doctors/astronauts/etc
Most of us live in 1st world countries, where that stuff doesn't happy.
Even if you go to 2nd world countries, you're WAAAY worse off being trans there.
>Why do transwomen think they're so much more "oppressed" than cis women when they got all of the benefits of growing up?
Because trans women didn't get those "benefits".
If you can't attend school because you feel bad, or is so depressed that you can't cope with things, you're much worse off than the imagined oppression women face.
If you're female, you've had the best chances of getting a good education, and good grades, even better chances than cis males.
But I socialized as neither because I had no friends and I spent my entire adolescence being completely alone.
>>5732264
With full respect for the hurdles that the patriarchy places in the way of AFAB persons exploring, succeeding, and actualizing themselves in education, and the lived experience it represents, you need to try for some perspective on how the lived experience of trans women brought up under the assumption (and usually insistence by authority) that they be becoming masculine cis men.
Come to a more thorough understanding of intersectionality. I find many people first learning about the concept mistake it for a way to measure who is most oppressed, or privileged, or... that's not it. It's about recognizing the diversity and ubiquity of those phenomena. The experience of oppression is contextual, and there are many cases where one class of person will be privileged in some way over someone who is in some other way privileged over them.
It's not about "who's most ______". It's about learning to accept, acknowledge, and understand that, even as oppressed classes, there are situations where we will be privileged over others. Self-awareness is a mighty tool for learning to do less harm - for learning not to erase other people when we might.
>caring this much about "privilege" which is just a social construct and other's opinion of you
>not doing what you want and disregarding negativity
>caring about something that won't exist in 5 years
nobody is any more privileged over anybody, it's stereotypes, negativity and disregarding other people's emotions that makes people want to pull the special snowflake defense out. If everyone just pulled their head out of their ass and coexisted with fellow humans, it'd be a better place here.
"that's a job for men/those clothes are for girls/act like a man/act like a woman"
easy answer: "fuck you, bye" and continue doing what you were.
I want TERFs to go
>>5732264
Bi MtF here. Why do cis women negate the fact they were socialized in the gender they are happy to be and have privilege in that regard the same way cis men do?
How come they are more "disprivileged" than trans women when trans women were the ones who were told growing up they couldn't grow their hair out/they had to play sports with the boys and be rough/they had to be dependable and unemotional/etc. because they need to "grow up to be real men," directed away from natural interests, received social penalties for not acting the way expected of a boy, etc.
Why do cis women think they're so much more "oppressed" than trans women when they carry the lightest load in western society? How come cis people don't understand that the formative years are some of the most important years of ones life especially in terms of enabling or hindering general success and enjoyment of life in adulthood?
>>5732264
because not every trans woman is an evil white man in league with the patriarchy, and not all of us:
1) pass,
2) were accepted as men,
3) were in any way privileged while being raised as men,
4) reap any benefits from our childhoods once we transitioned anyways.
privilege as a concept is dumb af as it is since most of it involves socio-economic factors, and attraction being valued in life in general is an idiotic concept to even debate because it's obviously valuable and has been since the dawn of man. you think just because we function in office buildings now instead of in caves that it doesn't matter at all if you're an obese, hideous woman? that you'll still be just as valued as your superior counterparts? like really. welcome to the real world. people like the people they like. which on that note, most trans women look less attractive than their cis counterparts anyways, and we have to work much harder for literally everything you do get (as miniscule as you think it may be.) although apparently being "raised as men" gave many of us the opportunities earlier on in life to attain a much higher IQ than you. so if anything at least that adds validity to your bitching.
>>5732438
>implying women aren't told to be dependable
also
>"when they carry the lightest load in western sociey"
Go fuck yourself. Holy shit who the hell raised you and wiped your ass and fed you? Your dad? Doubtful. It was probably your mom who bears the brunt of the hardest fucking job in the world: raising a kid.
Men have no marginal cost when it comes to raising kids. Go maim your genitals and have fun never having children, I bet you won't even adopt. Women don't carry the lightest load in western society, you faggots who live for themselves and no one else do.
>>5732264
Uh, not trans but you do realize effeminate boys who are bgt makeup make up more of the homeless youth in America in raw numbers than all the girls combined http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/americas-shame-40-of-homeless-youth-are-lgbt-kids/
Girls aren't mistreated for liking boys, or being effeminate, they aren't as likely to face sexual assault as lgbt youth, by ever benchmark they're worse.
Nothing worse than an entitled woman who hasn't ever suffered violence or deprivation because who she was or who she was loved to preach about how lgbt people are evil leaches.
>>5732505
>you faggots who live for themselves and no one else do.
Nice homophobia, nah, not only aren't you doing any of those things you deem productive, but now you're blaming faggots for not having acomplished anything. pathetic
>>5732505
But women do carry the lightest load in society lol. All they're expected to do is look pretty, have babies, cook, clean and make sure not to fuck up their kids, and they fail at that all the time lol. Men on the other hand are expected to work tirelessly, earn the majority of income, aggressively compete for their mate, fight and die in wars, show no emotion or weakness and generally abide strictly by those expectations unless they want to be harshly sanctioned by society.
>>5732264
>bait.jpg
>privilege
Please kill yourself
>>5732505
I can shit out 10 babies on welfare and make money doing it while smoking weed and getting my nails did while I call people with my Obama phone.
Life IS hard pooping kids out.
Try years of manual labor, heavy combat roles, no desire to care for your body, a broken soul
> It's not about "who's most ______"
Oh my dear, but it is 2016--everything, EVERYTHING is all about "Who is the most oppressed". NO other topic of conversation is allowed. but "you have "not-me" privilege.
Tell me I'm wrong; tell me when you've seen someone converse with a different demographic without pulling out the "you have privilege" card? That is all that discourse in the GLBTQWYXZAEGKEGJEGAG community has become anymore (and yes, I know someone is going to screech because I left off "their" oppression letter)
The real world is going to chew you up and spit you out so fast you won't know what's coming.
you think you are oppressed? heh, let me challenge you to the annual oppression olympics where i am going to streetfight you to death for the title of being america's top oppressed group
cis (real) women are the most oppressed minority group there is. this is indisputable fact. trannies please go
>>5732726
Nah. I'm going to face many disappointments, and much less kindness than I'd wish for, but I'm determined to do my best to be as positive an agent in my world as I can be. And when I fuck up, I'll try to have the perspective to own up to it, deal with criticism, and do better.
>>5732264
>trannies
>future success
Pick one.
they get male privilege before they transition, but that is quickly overshadowed by homophobia once they do...
a known tranny is not more privliged than a cis girl, no matter how well she passes.
>>5732505
>Holy shit who the hell raised you and wiped your ass and fed you? Your dad? Doubtful. It was probably your mom who bears the brunt of the hardest fucking job in the world: raising a kid.
I can't say I know who did all of that shit in my infancy. I can tell you that even though I can't stand my father, he was very present in my childhood and he helped me with things. He made me toys from his experience as a carpenter and played with me. He talked with me when I babbled. My mother was the one who put in the effort to get me to read when I was behind my classmates.
I'll tell you what my mother's and father's occupations are too. My father works at a garbage processing facility fixing the machinery and doing whatever else needs to be done. I'll tell you the stench is horrendous. In the garbage, he sometimes finds used needles. Who knows what diseases he could develop from exposure to toxins or diseases? Of course, he finds many OTHER people's used diapers. His union coworkers don't do much and shirk work. At home, he improves every house we've lived in by making new rooms, adding a garage, adding bathrooms, extending the house, and some landscaping. He had some help from some workers, my brothers, and I. This includes working with concrete, which is a skin irritant and I personally find it unpleasant to work with.
What my mother does is works as a CNA in an assisted living facility for the elderly. This involves lifting and showering patients who can't take care of themselves and preventing bed sores. She does the standard cooking, cleaning, and washing at home for 5. Her load is a bit lighter when my grandmother is with us. She's worse off than her coworkers for a spinal disc issue.
how can privileges be real when our sexes aren't real?
>>5732264
>privilege
>oppression
also what is this bullshit tumblr logic you're coming up with lol
>>5732264
Because in order for socialization to work, you have to internalize the messages targeted at your gender. trans women didn't internalize male messages.
>>5732342
As a young transitioner, I got catcalled and had to put up with all sorts who tried to proposition me.
>>5732369
>>Why do transwomen think they're so much more "oppressed" than cis women when they got all of the benefits of growing up?
>Because trans women didn't get those "benefits".
>If you can't attend school because you feel bad, or is so depressed that you can't cope with things, you're much worse off than the imagined oppression women face.
>If you're female, you've had the best chances of getting a good education, and good grades, even better chances than cis males.
this so much. My grade school and high school classmates did everything they could to make my life miserable.
>>5732342
I'll add that this is only a problem for attractive cis/trans women. But attractive cis/trans women also get privileges e.g. more attention, consideration, "ladies first," etc.
>>5732748
challenge accepted.
>>5732505
Women are free to choose not to have kids. But men are expected to be strong and independent whether they're single or in a relationship.
>>5732264
Anon here. Why do people on /lgbt/ participate in oppression olympics?
>>5732264
Because when people look at us they want to bash our heads in with pipes.
>>5732264
>oppression olympics
Great bait, /pol/
>>5732264
Trans women are paid less then every minority group, and unemployed more, while having more education.
They have privilege of having male opportunity, and female lack of accountability that allows them to graduate from college more often then both groups, but then discrimination causes hem to not be able to land a job. (Inb3 mental illness, can't handle a job; if you can handle a science degree you can handle a basic job)
ITT: Oppression Olympics.
>>5732264
Gee, I wonder why somebody with a useless degree in women's studies might be motivated in telling women that they don't have a chance in actually profitable degrees.
Because they're the only ones telling women they can't do STEM you sponge.
>>5732505
>A mother has da hardest job in da wurld
Fuck this hyperbolic drivel. Why are women - mothers in particular - always to masturbatory? Can't cross the fucking street without patting themselves on the back about it.
Attention trans women, go into IT or Game Development. They are mostly non-discriminatory industries.
>>5732264
>cis lesbian
Do you know how privileged you are? Like everything but the last claim is incredibly trivial
>wah my parents said i can't be a doctor wah
Fuck off somewhere else where you can jerk off your victim complex
>>5736885
gotta look both ways faá Žm pretty oppressive and stressful tbá Žh
>>5732377
even so, merely living as male was enough to b considered "socialization"
you dont need to have social life to be socialized
>>5737499
Being socialised as male is obviously the biggest privilege. That's why they kill themselves so much. That's also why they're force into nonconcentual cosmetic surgery that permanently damages them for the sake of female cosmetic preferences. Oh boy. Look at these privileges.
Because it's like talking about how much white privilege Jewish holocaust victims had. It's retarded intersectionality bullshit that is designed to derail every single conversation to be about feminism and how oppressed women are. JUST FUCK OFF WOMEN WE DON'T CARE.
Mtf here. The only privilege I've had as a male is I can be as gross as I want, eat whatever I want, say whatever I want and pretty much do whatever I want.
But it never made me happy. I prefer the responsible girl side.
>>5732437
I want trannies to go. Too bad that's not how life works.
>>5732495
>h-how can men be privileged if I didnt get treated very well?
Typical tranny/straight guy response. This is why libfem is going to the shits
>>5736520
Women are expected to have kids. The fact that you would say otherwise indicates that you know absolutely nothing about being a woman.
>>5736703
The top 10% of highest paid women are trannies in IT, surfing on the experience and education they gained during their formative years as men with male privilege. Some of them even have cis female wives who support their careers. The benefits clearly persist after their "transition"
>>5738081
The sort of people to expect women to have kids are equally pushy on men to have kids with them. They don't expect for it to happen in a vacuum. This is down to the previous generations obsession with their idea of a successful life and family. To be successful you need to have a house, a white picket fence, a dog, two kids and a wife. This isn't because women are expect to have kids simply because they're women.
>>5738056
I'd rather 1 million trannies than 1 dumb TERF clinging to shaky logic, outdated "facts," and whining about oppression of women in the comfiest culture ever. I'd love to see these kind of dumb radical feminists thrown into a country where women really have issues, like the literal rape culture in India or some middle east oppression. But nope, it's all about the manspreading oh no how dare men exist near me.
Pure utter retardation.
What's even worse to see is the TERFs that claim to be "gender critical" yet damn they are laser focused on trans people. That's all they talk about. They're supposed to be about eradicating gender but for some reason, they're really obsessed with trans.
>>5738091
Gonna need to see some citations for that. In the US, there is literally nothing stopping women from going to college and getting an education in STEM. And no, being verbally discouraged to do something does not equal being oppressed so much you cannot do that thing. That's some retarded shit too. People who think like that are always looking for someone to blame for their shortcomings. Good thing the patriarchy is around. It can't be that you as an individual aren't smart enough to make it in those kinds of fields and instead took a women's study degree. God forbid people be held accountable as individuals.
Also, cis female wives are a privilege now huh? That's retarded. No one supports my career. If no one supports your career, well, that sucks but you know if you really want that career you'll work your ass off and get there.
>>5738091
I don't have an education. I had to drop out of high school because of depression and all the abuse I experienced from students and teachers.
My formative years were spent in disdain for my body and being told I was supposed to be someone I'm not.
What benefits do I have?
You can't experience "male privilege" if you're not male.
>>5738091
>no studies
>literally ranting about a group of rich Jews who are keeping all the good white womyn down
Conspiratorial delusions don't make facts.
Maybe you should get something other than protocols of the elders for a guide.
>>5736541
Who knows lgbt loves to fight against each other
>>5738158
I know exactly how you feel anon
>>5732264
I have no clue how old you are but I have not heard cis-women being told they could not be ANYTHING in a long time. The article you posted does NOT show that cis women in general are not graded differently, only that UNATTRACTIVE cis women are. I am a gay male, and i do not treat lesbians or transwomen any differently than I treat anyone else. Why do you need to feel like you are more oppressed than everyone else? Even if what you say were true, that men are more "privileged" than everyone else and that transwomen were formerly men thus making them "privileged", wouldnt that fact change as soon as they transition? yet you still have to put on this "poor me" air because things are so much worse for you? please stop worrying about everyone else and try working on yourself and your own situation instead of just sitting there whining about it. The only person that can improve your situation is you. and if you ask me yes, trans people definitely got the shit end of the stick. Grow Up!
>>5738069
>implying that's not the exact argument put up by feminists like OP
oh, so you were TOLD to lower your sights and not aim for STEM because you're a woman?
how about flip them the bird, grow a thick skin and do it anyway?
no, it's easier to just cite studies that show how malleable your will is to criticism and take no personal responsibility for your own character development.
>privilege
I came here to be gay, not to be yelled at by SJW feminazi cunts about how I didnt work for my lot in life
>Why do transwomen negate the fact that they were socialized male and have privilege in that regard the same way cis men do?
you answered your own question
>>5732264
why is it that feminists have this really weird, warped idea of what it's like growing up "socialized" male, where they think guys grow up being told the world is their oyster and they're inherently entitled to everything, and constantly have their egos stroked and are encouraged and supported to pursue whatever their hearts desire?
that's not how it works!
guys grow up with adversity too, constantly being put down, constantly having to prove themselves and their worth, it's a trial by fire where you either sink or swim.
the difference seems to be that while guys more readily just pull their socks up and get on with it, feminists decide it isn't fair to be faced with ANY adversity in life and give up and whinge at every opportunity.
take responsibility for your own life!
oh also please, stop conveniently ignoring the glass ceiling over working class males who have, proportionally, the poorest representation in higher education, and who form the bulk of the manual labour force both in unskilled minimum wage jobs, and job sectors with the highest risks of workplace deaths.
women might not be at the top of the career ladder but they aren't at the bottom. they're sitting quite comfortably in middle management complaining about how that one asshole of a guy, who they take as exemplary of ALL GUYS EVER, is stopping them from becoming the CEO of a company they didn't even found.
i stayed my dad told me i was a loser and i always got bad grades and was absent for like 100 days a year every year and was in special ed and dropped out when i was 16 can i be left out of the privilege thing for school at least y/n
>>5732264
Pretty much every privilege we have over cis women growing up are erased when we transition. Then we have to deal with the oppression women get as well as oppression trans people get.
>>5738992
>oppression women get
Oh yeah, having all the same rights as men as well as some men dont have is super hard.
>>>>tumblr
>>5739000
>women are treated the same as how men are treated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thefuckoutofhere
>>5739007
Ive never once noticed myself or any other women being treated different than men. This is only a problem for whiny tumbrites who think not being considered pretty is an oppression
>>5739000
>>5739007
simmer down ladies
women and men are treated differently
men have some privileges women don't have, and face some hardships women don't.
women have some privileges men don't havem and face some hardships men don't.
both feminists and MGTOWs are laughable in how much they oversimplify things and make it out to be some ideological battle of the sexes.
>>5739016
>where I live is the only place in the world
>>5739022
Men's bodies aren't controlled by legislation, they're not shamed into obeying harsh standards of beauty and skin care, they're not stuck with weaker bodies on average or the pain of childbirth and they're not considered to age like milk by society. They have more political and social power and privilege overall.
>>5739046
Womens bodies are not controlled. If you feel shamed then thats on you but most women like to feel pretty. Nothing can help you with the weaker body because thats just the way the human race has evolved. Men dont age well either dear. I wouldnt sleep with a fat old dude. They have more political power because those are not the jobs women want or need to go into. You have to work and make your own privilege, nothing is just handed to you regardless of gender
>>5739046
>Men's bodies aren't controlled by legislation
Cite an example of how women's bodies are, it's a fairly broad, amorphous statement to make.
>they're not shamed into obeying harsh standards of beauty and skin care
Men's beauty and skincare is a growing market, do you seriously think men see this image, from childhood, that they are meant to be tall, ripped, lean and muscular and not feel some inferiority if they don't meet those standards? Do you really think all of the guys who, from their teens, obsessively weightlift, are doing it to fulfill some "power and control" fantasy? No. It's all about body image. Do you honestly think men don't feel like shit about themselves every time they step out of their comfort zone to ask someone out and get rejected? Stop pretending this is a female only problem, it isn't. The guys who just say "fuck it" and ride out life with a hairy beer gut, you know, that's not because they were taught it was acceptable, it's because they stopped allowing companies with financial interests to push this unrealistic image of who they were supposed to be onto them. And I would comfortably bet there are women who are just the same as them, they just clearly aren't you.
>they're not stuck with weaker bodies on average or the pain of childbirth and they're not considered to age like milk by society.
okay there are several points in this. the "age like milk" one is completely subjective and again largely pushed by uhh, companies with a financial interest. but newsflash, for every George Clooney there is a Diane Keaton. Women CAN age well and if it's a hormone/menopause thing, guess what, the latest trend is pushing the idea of andropause and testosterone replacement therapy onto middle aged men.
childbirth. well SORRY FOR NOT BEING BORN WITH A WOMB, JESUS. and do you realise just how many transwomen (since this thread is about attacking transwomen for "male privilege") are PRAYING for the day they are able to carry a pregnancy?
>>5739046
>Men's bodies aren't controlled by legislation
yeah, you're right. It is perfectly acceptable to perform cosmetic genital surgery on a male child and not a female one. This happens to most men in the US despite the fact that, if one actually bathes like a regular human being, is only detrimental. Not only this but women can opine publicly on their preference for these mutilated genitals -- and most women in the US do prefer them -- and not be seen as abhorrent human beings that they, frankly, should be.
Lucky women, right?
But y'know, keep trying to misrepresent the abortion issue as people being against the idea that women can do what they like with their own bodies. The people against it aren't against the idea of that. They're against the idea that it's OK to remove a fetus because they see it as destroying a human life. As in a woman having say over the body (life) of another human being, rather than her own.
I'm pro-abortion and this shit grinds my gears. You're not going to change people's opinions by not addressing your opponents concerns and issues. All you're doing is arguing against the imaginary strawman you created. Trying to misrepresent and shame your opponent and make them look like a monster isn't actually helping anybody. It just feels good and makes people not like you. Wonder why people hate feminists, huh?
>>5739046
so, so many cis women openly express just how miraculous and empowering it feels to carry a pregnancy. and another thing, women carrying pregnancy is what gives them innate worth. men's reproductive value is hardly worth mentioning. this is the reason men have traditionally taken on more dangerous jobs, from mammoth hunting to war to construction, because men (or rather, biological males) are more expendable.
>They have more political and social power and privilege overall.
again this is unequivocally false. thanks to both modern medicine making childbirth far less risky, and suffrage, women now form a marginal MAJORITY of the electorate. why are men more often politicians? i would posit simply because men are more interested in politics, NOT because women are discouraged from it, but simply because of differing biologically engrained drives to be involved in such works. men get voted in on the substance of their political outlook. all hillary seems to be interested in doing is shilling the fact that she has a vagina.
don't blame other women of "internalised sexism" if they don't vote for her. those women are smart enough to see that hillary has nothing else going for her. hillary is a warhawk and won't reinstate glass-steagall legislation. those are far more important in politics than what's between her legs.
>>5739091
I wonder when was the last time >>5739071 has seen a plus size or regular looking male model. Meanwhile female plus sized and regular looking models are blowing up. But no. Obviously society is enforcing unrealistic standards on the women alone by having unachievable standards in people PAID TO BE ATTRACTIVE.
>>5732264
Jesus Christ how fucking stupid are you SJW types? You don't have any fucking clue what anyone else went through as a child, you cannot HONESTLY say that you know purely based on sex, that's sexist.
Women are NOT oppressed, you have to be completely bind not to see that trannies have a way worse time in society than cis women, I mean for fucksake do you really belive that feminism bullshit? I say trannies are more oppressed than cis women, not only because we are trans, but because we were socialised male and men have it harder in society than women in almost every respect, you only have to look at suicide statistics to see this
>>5739127
yeah also let's compare buzzfeed
Women's body beauty standards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrp0zJZu0a4
Men's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tneKwarw1Yk
i'm kind of ashamed at how complicit i am in male beauty standards... there's nothing better than a tall, muscular guy.
>>5732264
>privilege
Hahahahaha go back to tumblr, you aren't some 3rd world shithole woman who has to face any sort of discrimination or difficulty in life. Your privilege is greater than any of the groups on this board.
>>5732264
why are you making shit up? my formative years were hell btw
fuck you
>>5739142
I don't think there's anything wrong with just, liking attractive people y'know?
At the end of the day the only person you're hurting by having ridiculously high standards is yourself in all the opportunities you missed.
I want to make it clear that I'm not being passive aggressive with that because it sounds like I am. I honestly mean that it really isn't anybody's business what you like and you shouldn't feel guilty about liking what you do. You just keep doing you.
It's also worth noting that people can find multiple types of people attractive at the same time. Male sexuality tends to be very varied within the person and much less so in women in my experience. Straight men will like short girls, tall girls, chubby girls and strawnk girls all at the same time for different reasons. I can't say what it's like in the gay community. Meanwhile straight female sexuality seems to be focused on one type. Short, bishi bitch boys or Tall, muscular and handsome but not both at once for example.
Not that that should be taken as gospel at all, it was just something I've noticed. Anybody else noticed that or wanna call bull?
I want tumblr to leave
>>5739175
it's a common narrative yeah, and i totally get what you're saying.
it's just that the way it's often put across that women have far less variety in their taste for men is often framed in this like, moralistic "more fool you for not having lower standards" kind of way when you know it is what it is at the end of the day you can't force yourself to find someone attractive who you don't.
>>5739046
our penises were mutilated without our consent
>>5739198
Exactly. The point I was getting at was
>If the only person you're hurting is yourself, you shouldn't feel guilty. Guilt is for when you hurt others.
Sort of deal. Though I phrased it awfully. I don't buy into the "You should lower your standards! Can't you see? His nipple-hair is beautiful!" schlock for that very reason.
>>5732328
Have to agree with this
>>5739071
>what is legislation on abortion
>if you feel shamed then thats on you but most women like to feel pretty
how is it on one person if society collectively frowns on women for not obeying beauty standards set by men?
>Nothing can help you with the weaker body because thats just the way the human race has evolved.
so that's a privilege men have
>Men dont age well either dear
society tells older men they're valuable and older women they're not, men only find young women attractive and women find men their age attractive generally
>those are not the jobs women want or need to go into
yeah because women are just naturally domicile and that's not product of society, sure
>You have to work and make your own privilege, nothing is just handed to you regardless of gender
that's clearly bullshit
>>5739091
>Cite an example of how women's bodies are
abortion rights
>Men's beauty and skincare is a growing market
it is but it's still a choice, nobody will judge men for not shaving or wearing makeup, it's a small minority that are doing it by choice compared to a huge majority doing it because society has taught them they have to
>men see this image, from childhood, that they are meant to be tall, ripped, lean and muscular
>Do you really think all of the guys who, from their teens, obsessively weightlift, are doing it to fulfill some "power and control" fantasy?
Do you think there are more men with body image problems than there are women who wear makeup? Do you think there are more men with body image problems than there are women with body image problems? It's absurd to say the expectation isn't higher and more prevalently displayed for women. At least men are expected to be fit, that's a positive trait, most of the expectations for women serve no rational benefit and some are even harmful.
>stopped allowing companies with financial interests to push this unrealistic image of who they were supposed to be onto them
well that's what some feminists are doing but they get far more abuse than those men you mention
>for every George Clooney there is a Diane Keaton
there are far far far more older men hat found attractive than older women, far more, there's plenty of evidence of that.
>do you realise just how many transwomen are PRAYING for the day they are able to carry a pregnancy?
yes and I'm one of them, doesn't mean for much of the wider population it's a burden they didn't choose
>>5732264
Their is no such thing as male privilege you fucking idiot
infact women get treated better than men
>>5739247
>women find men their age attractive generally
Are you even beginning to be serious right now? This is simply incorrect.
>>5739259
>nobody will judge men for not shaving
Oh my mistake, never mind. You're just blinded by your own bitterness and bigotry. Grass is greener and all that. Good job ignoring all the other arguments against you.
>>5739091
One other point. Do you think you more at an advantage being a transwoman than you would be being a transman? Are your features judged more or less harshly by society?
>>5739109
Circumcision is bullshit yes, I think being out of control of your own body in terms of abortion is a little more important than being out of control in terms of your foreskin. Both are important, but abortion is more important.
What people's opinions on the matter of abortion are doesn't change the reality that it's control over women's bodies, it doesn't matter whether it's for benevolent religious reasons.
>arguing against the imaginary strawman you created
right so it's not true anything I've said, bullshit
I haven't said anything about any strawman all I've said is the truth about women's bodies being controlled by legislature, I didn't say pro-lifers are evil or anything like that. How have I misrepresent or shamed them?
>>5739247
Women are naturally domicile you delusional cunt
>>5739125
>women now form a marginal MAJORITY of the electorate
if the electorate were in control of countries that would mean something.
>differing biologically engrained drives to be involved in such works
that's fucking pseudo-science.
>all hillary seems to be interested in doing is shilling the fact that she has a vagina
that's one woman, she doesn't represent female politicians.
>>5739259
women have abortion rights. women have far more rights when it comes to sex than men. for women, consent to sex is not consent to procreation. for men, by default it is. for women, as un-ideal as the situation may be at least they're not pressured to keep quiet about spousal abuse the same way men are.
you say men aren't judged for not upholding beauty standards. they're ignored because they're nobodies. they're white noise, window dressing. women don't actually treat them like real human beings.
>well that's what some feminists are doing but they get far more abuse than those men you mention
because they still attract far more attention than the male worker drones i mentioned.
>there are far far far more older men hat found attractive than older women, far more, there's plenty of evidence of that.
who's being sexist now?
>yes and I'm one of them, doesn't mean for much of the wider population it's a burden they didn't choose
again, women can actually CHOOSE not to carry pregnancy. hell, they could even CHOOSE to get a hysterectomy so they couldn't. they still have far more many legally ratified reproductive freedoms than men.
>>5739306
>domicile
Uhhhh...
https://www.bing.com/search?q=domicile&go=Submit+Query&qs=bs&form=QBRE
maybe docile?
>>5739298
>How have I misrepresent or shamed them?
By misrepresenting their arguments. They don't have an issue with women having control over their own bodies, they just don't see the fetus as being part of that woman's body. They see the fetus as it's own body. They see the woman as having already made the choice to accept the risk when she has had sex. They see it as the woman deciding what to do with her own body (eg. Having control over their own body) at the point where she bangs somebody else and risks pregnancy.
They're saying that the fetus is not the woman's body and that she has already made the choice and that the fetus deserves the same body autonomy as her (unless it's a male, then it can get circumcised).
By arguing that pro-'lifers' hate the fact that women get to choose what they want to do with their own body and want to stop it you're doing the exact same thing as they are when they're painting women who want abortions as sluts who want to sleep around without consequences and murder babies. You're misrepresenting the other side's argument so you can see who can have the highest horse. And you must be able to see how crazy those guys are, right? Don't be like them.
>>5739298
>One other point. Do you think you more at an advantage being a transwoman than you would be being a transman? Are your features judged more or less harshly by society?
that's an interesting one. i don't have much experience when it comes to transmen but yeah, i'll concede they can probably blend in and become nobodies a lot more easily. there have been examples of such guys who suddenly found the absence of attention they grew up to be quite a shock. i've also seen one transman without a thick skin express how hurt he was by the typical banter among male groups when his masculinity was called into question by someone who doesn't even know he's trans.
that's a common occurrence among men, they still have standards of masculinity they need to live up to and are afforded far less flexibility with drifting into the feminine than cis women are with drifting into the masculine, without their gender being called into question.
when it comes to transwomen, it's more of a problem because we're trans than because we're women, don't you think? it's a problem not because society views us as women, but because it doesn't - it still views us as inherently male.
>>5739313
>if the electorate were in control of countries that would mean something.
then concentrate on fixing democracy rather than politicising gender
>that's fucking pseudo-science.
"gender is a social construct" is pseudo-science.
>that's one woman, she doesn't represent female politicians.
sure. you have everyone from thatcher to merkel to sturgeon who've held head office in their respective countried (not to mention the queen being the commonwealth head of state). america would do well to wait for a decent candidate than voting the first woman to stand for presidency in.
>>5739297
http://www.break.com/article/men-of-all-ages-prefer-young-women-says-okcupid-data-2757565
>nobody will judge men for not shaving
I'm obviously talking about more places than the face
>>5739306
is that why women historically have revolted continuously against male oppression.
>>5739318
>for men, by default it is
that's because nothing even grows in them after they have sex
>at least they're not pressured to keep quiet about spousal abuse the same way men are
that is true absolutely, but that is changing
>who's being sexist now?
how is it sexist? older men are found attracted far more often than older women are.
>still have far more many legally ratified reproductive freedoms than men
that's because they carry the child, abortion isn't a luxury it's not a nice procedure, nor is getting a hysterectomy. the privilege of being about to have an abortion doesn't outweigh that you actually have to have the abortion. it's not like flipping a switch it's a huge thing to go through with.
>>5739332
You're getting into semantics now, if I said they're seeking to control women's bodies then then that's true whatever they believe.
I didn't argue that pro-lifers hate the fact that women get to choose, you're building a straw man. All I said was that it's a privilege that men don't have to deal with their abortion rights being a political matter.
>>5739378
>that's because nothing even grows in them after they have sex
that's not the point. it's still their biological child for whom they can be held legally accountable to pay through the nose in child support to raise, for whom they often lose custody, so on and so forth.
>how is it sexist? older men are found attracted far more often than older women are.
i'd still contest that. the men seen in the media might be more attractive as they age, sure, but i'd suspect that's more to do with the fact that the men you most often see in the media started off in the 90th percentile attractiveness wise when their careers started off as younger men. the uglier women in the media were probably not the most stunning earlier in life in the same way, and those who were definitely do age well.
i've seen plenty of old men IRL who blow this misconception out of the water. men can age like shit after their 50's too.
>that's because they carry the child, abortion isn't a luxury it's not a nice procedure, nor is getting a hysterectomy. the privilege of being about to have an abortion doesn't outweigh that you actually have to have the abortion. it's not like flipping a switch it's a huge thing to go through with.
if you want to avoid such unpleasant procedures you know uhh, abstinence and contraception are things. there is still choice. you still seem to be blaming the patriarchy for biological differences that men didn't have any say over.
>>5739378
>I'm obviously talking about more places than the face
>Obviously I'm talking about more places than the most important place that everyone will see no matter what you wear. Y'know? That part you have to shave every day compared to twice a week totally isn't important.
Put on some trousers and a long shirt if you're really that self-concious about it but people really don't care that much. Women enforce beauty standards on women much harder than men do. Meanwhile neckbeard is a pretty popular insult amongst feminist circles. Fun stuff.
>but that is changing
Thanks to male rights activists. Meanwhile feminism is responsible for trying (and succeeding) to remove funding from male support structures.
>You're getting into semantics now
Not at all. Pro-lifers aren't against the idea that women can control their bodies because they aren't fighting against the control a woman has over her body. They're fighting against the control a woman has over the fetus inside her. They view it as two different beings. This is a freakishly important distinction, how can you not see that? It's the difference between a woman having control over herself and a woman absolute control over somebody else's. We don't even give that right to parents.
>>5739353
I think it's because women have a higher standard of beauty they're expected to reach that we seem to fall short more often.
>then concentrate on fixing democracy
I'm not politicising gender I'm making the a simple statement that men have more privileges.
>"gender is a social construct" is pseudo-science.
I did not say it wasn't.
>thatcher
as much as I despise her politics she had a huge amount of support and I don't think being a woman was detrimental to her politically.
>>5739398
I'm not going to debate abortion and childbirth in financial terms because I know where that goes. Men don't get a say in matters of abortion because it's not their body, they have an opportunity to not have a child, it's called not having sex, women have two opportunities and that's just biological, you can't help that.
>the uglier women in the media were probably not the most stunning earlier in life
You're saying the reason the media pushes the idea that older women aren't attractive is that they must have been ugly to start with? But women in the media have to almost always be gorgeous to be actresses or models or television presenters or weather girls or news readers.
>if you want to avoid such unpleasant procedures you know uhh, abstinence and contraception are things.
I'm not blaming the patriarchy for the unpleasantness of childbirth or abortions, just saying men don't have to deal with it.
>>5739046
Uh, they might not biological really count as men anymore, but Trans health is strictly regulated. There's more abortion clinics than there are informed consent clinics out there.
And the alternative to informed consent is acting like some disgusting caricature of femmnity because some old psychologist threatens you into it.
Can you just imagine if you had to do that for your abortions and had legally mandated multi month wait times?
>>5739418
>important place that everyone will see
You really think it's harder to shave your face everyday than to shave everywhere a woman has to? Would people be disgusted with you if you had some stubble on your face?
You're not expected to do half the things women are expected to do.
>Put on some trousers and a long shirt
>If people are oppressing you then you should cover yourself in a burqa
>people really don't care that much
of course they do, beauty products wouldn't sell like they do otherwise
>Women enforce beauty standards on women much harder than men do.
bullshit, men shame women far more often and brutally.
>Meanwhile neckbeard is a pretty popular insult amongst feminist circles
yeah women use neckbeard as an insult to shame men for having bearded necks far more than men shame women for having hairy armpits, faces, legs or otherwise.
>they aren't fighting against the control a woman has over her body
they are even if they think it's not part of a woman's body, you don't seem to understand it doesn't matter what they believe it matters what in reality would happen if they got their way.
>>5739435
>I think it's because women have a higher standard of beauty they're expected to reach that we seem to fall short more often.
i think that's rubbish, unless women hold each other to such hard standards regarding their physical looks as men hold each other to say, their interests, hobbies, the way they act and what they drink.
who do you think is holding them to such high standards?
>I did not say it wasn't.
ye my bad for copping out of citing my claims but this is an internet argument i'm really not up for putting too much effort into it.
>as much as I despise her politics she had a huge amount of support and I don't think being a woman was detrimental to her politically.
same and honestly i'm pretty sure her election campaign rode on far more of a sociopolitical agenda than her gender.
>Men don't get a say in matters of abortion because it's not their body, they have an opportunity to not have a child, it's called not having sex, women have two opportunities and that's just biological, you can't help that.
>that's just biological, you can't help that.
finally, sense has been spoken.
>Men don't get a say in matters of abortion because it's not their body
the fetus isn't the woman's body either.
but hey look this is a silly argument to be having when i disagree as much as the next person with the dirty tricks that pro-life campaigners and clinics use to push their agenda.
>But women in the media have to almost always be gorgeous to be actresses or models or television presenters or weather girls or news readers.
except they don't. it's already been pointed out that plus size models are a thing, and.... UGH as far as actresses go i can't get Dawn French out of my mind. she's not even that ugly IMO, she's just fat. OH, how about Miranda Hart? how about ummm, Kathy Bates? Judi Dench was fairly cro magnon when she was younger and has actually aged well given that. Liza Minnelli? i can keep on going if you want.
I feel like the problem with this "male privilege" and "male socialization" bullshit is that they never go into detail on specific things; they just throw these vague terms around and then also go on to pretend like there are zero "female privileges" or zero benefits to "female socialization".
And then when they actually do give examples of "male privilege," they're typically shit that never applies to you personally because as a fucking tranny you obviously never had a normal childhood.
I've been friendless and socially isolated since middle school and now I'm an ugly, 25 year old unpassable virgin tranny who no one will ever hire because of zero job experience and the whole being a tranny thing, yet apparently I'm so much more privileged than every woman is because I had the good fortune of being born with a penis that has crippled my life.
I will probably die alone and poor, completely unloved by anyone; some privilege indeed. We're not all former Olympic athletes now millionaires.
>>5739492
>it doesn't matter what they believe
Then you aren't actually interested in changing anybody's mind and making progress on the issue. Instead you are more interested in fellating your own ego by 'winning' an argument by demonising others into silence rather than through logic and reasoning. Enjoy your high-horse arms race you daft bint. I hope it's worth it. I can't stand that you represent my camp.
>>5739526
>you daft bint
chuckled heartily
>>5739524
b-b-b-b-b-b-uuuuuuutt m-m-muh m-m-male s-socialisation sh-shitl-lord
op what have you done
>>5739516
>who do you think is holding them to such high standards?
society with the media being its primary tool.
>the fetus isn't the woman's body either.
well this is where we disagree, while it's growing on her it's part of her in my view, akin to a tumour or a growth. That is however inconsequential in the greater debate centred around the morality of destroying/killing a foetus. I don't think any moral or ethical argument is good enough to force a woman to not have the choice to abort.
>plus size models
how many of them are there really in mainstream media that aren't in comedy roles or being laughed at though? less than there are fat men almost certainly.
>as actresses go
I could list fat, ugly, old male actors but I don't know if that'd be productive, I think there are far more of thembut there's not much point arguing more because as you say:
>this is an internet argument i'm really not up for putting too much effort into it
yeah iktf, after this we'll probably immediately forget about it and it'll be of no consequence.
>>5739526
I'm not interested in trying to change pro-lifers minds because that's almost no chance of me being able to do that.
>demonising
>high-horse arms race
>daft bint
kek, this wasn't a pro-choice vs pro-life argument, and I don't know why you're trying to turn it into one, or why you disagree with the statement that women's bodies are being politicised if you're pro-choice.
>>5739598
>society with the media being its primary tool.
it's companies and marketing departments who realise by making women want to strive for higher beauty standards, they can be coerced to part with their money.
it's entirely a by-product of a free-market economy in which women, consequentially, are higher net consumers.
i don't want to belittle the effort it would take to stand up against such pressure to change such norms, or that interacting with men who have been just as inundated with such a perception of female beauty might be taken aback by one's lack of make-up, but you're barking up the wrong tree, placing blame where it isn't due, and not placing blame where it is due.
>how many of them are there really in mainstream media that aren't in comedy roles or being laughed at though? less than there are fat men almost certainly.
acting wise, the comedy role of fat people goes for both sexes, absolutely.
female plus size models are a thing though. you'd be hard-pressed to find male models whose BMIs top out in the same range they do for female models. female plus size models have repeatedly been lauded, even by the press, where once again fat guys are just ignored completely.
>>5739643
I don't doubt it's companies and marketing, part of the reason kids toys are so gender roles' specific is it's easy to sell to two specific markets, each with very similar interests, pink girls toys blue boys toys.
I encapsulate companies and markets into society, they may be the driving force but it's also how people are conditioned that enforces things, art imitates life and vice versa, it's hard to shake something so ingrained. Certainly I don't think men make a conscious decision to oppress women every day of their own free will.
Why are lesbians so angry and political? Nobody cares about oppression points just be the best person you can be and help others. Its good to call out injustice and try to fix it, but you don't have to be nasty to your neighbors because you're convinced you have it worse than them...
>>5739681
the one thing i'm most concerned about is how identity politics fixes things to certain people without acknowledging how society could change. so laws get written to rectify white male privilege, society changes, then suddenly white males become the least represented in higher education and they're left wondering "so uhh... how does affirmative action work now?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrsOaGBbXl4
when rectifying these differences i think it's important not to include racial and gender terms directly in legislation but to word it as say, "the racial majority" or "the gender most highly represented in a given industry sector" etc, so that if the balance tips, it has built in negative feedback to bring it back to equilibrium.
as for marketing i mean we all know sex sells and you know, granted that both men and women are targeted with it nowadays what would your stance be on making advertising regulation more stringent regards to how it impacts body image?
this can't be my home planet
Consider how ugly women are treated worse than non-ugly women.
Now, imagine that level of disparity in treatment, but 100 times more substantial. That's how non-passing trans women are treated.
Sure they get male privilege earlier in life, but don't pretend that trans women get far more shit than cis women do overall.
>>5739756
*don't get
>>5739712
sorry this took so long but incidentally, i got my steam account working. i can't find a way to message you because i'm dumb and i really never used it, but i sent you a friend request. i flooded the name listing in case what was there before was somehow not anonymous enough
i'll put a random yuri jpg from a thread here in case it makes it more obvi, since i'm transbian scum anyway, but any creep from here can do that after seeing this i guess
hélas, can't think, won't think. it's prob whatever oclock for you anyway
>>5739526
No, it's no different the religious fundamentalist parents who beat their gay/trans kids thinking they're "saving" them. They're still harming people, whether they're doing it out of genuine malice or because they think they're somehow helping people really doesn't matter.
