Maybe I don't understand much how NATO works.
According to this propaganda documentary
,https://youtu.be/t42-71RpRgI
At roughly 02:05:00
It is said that a NATO-trained Ukrainian unit resisted without surrendering (???) and was rekt by Russians.
But how is this possible? Doesn't NATO have rules of engagement? I don't get how Putin got away with Crimea with the US only sporting some destroyers on the Black Sea shores and NATO getting cucked on land (according to video).
So if Ukraine was part of NATO, why didn't NATO defend it? Just to avert WW3? Or were thereother reasons?
I tried to confront /pol/ with this some days ago, but failed because of some Swedecuck who kept calling me CIA shills and derailed the thread, so I am trying /k/ because maybe you guys have better knowledge of military rules of engagement etc.
NATO trained doesn't mean NATO mean NATO aligned. Advisors train all sorts of shitters. CIA trained the Mujaheddin for example, that doesn't mean the US was ever going to step in and come to the rescue if the guys they trained got captured by soviets.
>I don't get how Putin got away with Crimea with the US only sporting some destroyers on the Black Sea shores and NATO getting cucked on land
Crimea is mostly identify as Russian affiliated and the populace tend to be pro-Russian. To make a fuss would risk pointless larger conflict and to try take it back would be unpopular with the locals anyway. Ultimately nobody gives a shit about Ukraine because they are poor and would be a burden on everyone else like Greece.
>So if Ukraine was part of NATO
They weren't, were they? IIRC, they wanted to be part of EU, but the civil war and fractured government made it difficult to finalize.
>>29719860
>To make a fuss would risk pointless larger conflict and to try take it back would be unpopular with the locals anyway.
So all the things about the people's support to Russia in Crimea is not propaganda, but the truth. Crimeans wanted to be Russians.
It's such a Romance. Everyone should be allowed to join the country they want. :-*
>>29719815
russian propaganda clip
russians lie
russians distort
russians fake
russians cheat
never believe anything from russia about russia
>>29719885
well not all of them. hence the civil war.
>>29719890
See here for my opinion on the clip:
>>29719786
Anyway are you implying >>29719860 is wrong? Because that's exactly what the Russian media say.
>>29719815
>In Feodosia separate battalion of marines of the Naval Forces of Ukraine started to alert duty as part of the combat task force of the European Union «Helbroc» and as part of the NATO Response Force immediate.
>According to the press service of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry, on duty to intercede amphibious assault company. Over the next six months, Ukrainian unit will be on duty in places of permanent deployment in Ukraine in readiness for a possible immediate deployment in a group in crisis areas. A similar problem Marines will perform for the second time.
>On duty as part of the NATO Response Force immediate year intercede second company of marines.
"Unit was part of NATO" is a very simplified story.
>It is said that a NATO-trained Ukrainian unit resisted without surrendering (???) and was rekt by Russians.
Yes.
>But how is this possible?
By the Putin's wisdom
>Doesn't NATO have rules of engagement?
Thous commanders had common sense and had not wish to die for their new government with disputable legitimacy.
> I don't get how Putin got away with Crimea with the US only sporting some destroyers on the Black Sea shores and NATO getting cucked on land (according to video).
It was made at the edge of law, that's how. By Putin's wisdom. Transition of power in Ukraine happened not according to constitution. Crimea had very tricky legal status inside Ukrainian state and they use it to say their farewell.
>So if Ukraine was part of NATO, why didn't NATO defend it?
Ukraine was not part of the NATO.
Basically, you propose to support pro-US coup and open fire in most pro-Russian region of country which is also their main NAVY base in region.
>>29719920
>Basically, you propose to support pro-US coup and open fire in most pro-Russian region of country which is also their main NAVY base in region.
I wasn't proposing anything. I just asked out of sheer ignorance.
>pic related
And yet all the independent media, including EU media agrees it was the US that plotted the demiss of democracy in Ukraine by means of an engineered coup.
So, adding this to what you say, I conclude the US was happy to get mainland Ukraine only and leave Crimea to Russian Federation because it went beyojd the purpose of ths coup.
>>29719940
I don't really think they they were ready to that scenario. Yanukovich just run away like a little bitch. I think they expected some Assad tier shit. And then OK, Crimea goes to Russia, Ukraine to West and then Strelkov came and fucked up everything again.
>>29719815
>ukrainian
>ukraine
no such things
>>29719885
Well yeah. The Americans intervened in Yugoslavia and backed secession of Kosovo under the similar pretense, they effectively ruined post-WW2 international order in Europe. Courtesy of NATO, there is no legal guarantees to ensure your territorial integrity since 1999, everything is pure play of force.
>>29720197
>I don't really think they they were ready to that scenario
But isn't this exactly the problem with Western politics?
They cannot wage war because "muh pacifism", so they end up trying to be puppet masters by means of diplomacy and spies. But guess what? It looks to me like CIA and the US secretariat is amateurish at best.
CIA is excellent if you give them single tasks: find this, kill that, give me a reason to say X, let me know the whereabouts of Z... etc.
But as far as puppet-mastery is concerned, they are not the social engineers and spin doctors they fashion themselves to be.
Amateurish diplomacy that is imperialist at heart ends up fucking things up worse than traditional warfare does.
What was that the US was trying to do by funding Svoboda? Just unsettling the Russian buffer states... and so they did. Mission accomplished. But was it worth all those lies to the people and all those deaths? Not to the least... moreover they ended up being outsmarted by Russia from the strictly military point of view and now Europe is blatantly in damage control because "muh Putin looks threatening"; of course he does... we kept sticking our fingers in his arse until he reacted.
Fucking amateurs.
>>29720566
>But as far as puppet-mastery is concerned, they are not the social engineers and spin doctors they fashion themselves to be.
Diplomatic control requires LONG-TERM planning and efforts spanning decades upon decades to gain a decent grip on a nation.
But CIA has to work in the context of White Houses' political agenda of the day. And as far as White House is concerned future simply does not exist beyond the double-term.
>>29719890
>russian propaganda clip
>russians lie
>russians distort
>russians fake
>russians cheat
Do also independent Germans reporters lie?https://youtu.be/bkFVNRZv2eM
Because, you know... Russia might have embellished its narrative, but this dude confirms the facts:
>West backed up anti-Yuchenko protest
>Maidan was not peaceful but packed with fascists who BTFO of the police
>Crimea protested against the autocratic Ukrainian gov
>Gov declared they wanted to ethnic cleanse Crimea
>Russia acted to protect Crimea
>Donbass rallies similar to Crimea
>gov sends army
>army does not kill civilians. They defect
>gov stages fascists massacre of Odessa
>MSM in the West eat the bait
>gov officials tell control towers to ask MH17 to lower its altitude
>rebels are baited into hitting MH17
>etc.
Russia did nothing wrong for fucks sake.
>>29720599
>But CIA has to work in the context of White Houses' political agenda of the day. And as far as White House is concerned future simply does not exist beyond the double-term.
This.
Democracies have short memories.
On the contrary, monarchies have very long-term memories and expectations.
Even this is a provlem because you cannot hold a grudge forever.
But "democracies" (or people-backed oligarchies as I shall call them) are so temperamental the fuck-up chance is doubled and the chance something immensely stupid is done today just to get a benefit in the short term is what will lead the World as we know it to its end.
Comparatively, the political stability of the Vatican is noteworthy. They hardly alienated their base and kept ruling for millennia.
>>29720609
I am a Russian vatnik and I think you are going somewhat over the top.
>Crimea protested against the autocratic Ukrainian gov
>Gov declared they wanted to ethnic cleanse Crimea
Crimean protests had little to do with autocracy or ethnic cleanses. It was just that Crimea was an autonomous territory that was taken by Ukraine in the great mess-up of Union break-up, and population was very pro-Russian to begin with. Crimean population was vary of Ukraine's fast declining economy and fucked up political practices prior to that, and did not look forward to spending the rest of eternity under Kiev control, which makes Kremlin look competent and level-headed in comparison. Ukrainian gov turning into a fucking circus of assclowning was merely the last straw, that also provided Russia with a chance to snatch the peninsula back amid all the military incompetence.
>gov sends army
>army does not kill civilians. They defect
I watched that shit live on UkrTV and it was hilarious. Gov DIDN'T actually send in army. The whole non-violent process had a lot to do with Kiev NEVER SENDING ORDERS PERMITTING USE OF FORCE. The best part was an Ukrainian general cracking down on an officer coming in live from one of Ukrainian bases:
>- Sir, the command situation is shit, we're not certain of anything, so we repeatedly asked for permission to open fire and never got back anything. You could order us to open fire now and we'll finally start fighting these guys parked right outside.
>- Youfucking idiots you should've fired as soon as you saw those Russians you braindeads why the fuck do you need any confirmation to express your loyalty?
Read: "We know that just sending you to fight Russians will just get you slaughtered with little effect and prevent us from looking like an innocent victim party (nevermind forever burying the career of whoever gives the order), so would you kindly just kill yourselves providing us with some martyrs while keeping our hands completely clean?"
>>29720753
>Read: "We know that just sending you to fight Russians will just get you slaughtered with little effect and prevent us from looking like an innocent victim party (nevermind forever burying the career of whoever gives the order), so would you kindly just kill yourselves providing us with some martyrs while keeping our hands completely clean?
But that's exactly how I understood it.
Sorry for my brief summary.
But basically everyone agrees the Ukrainian gov was trying everything to lit a fire and be able to claim they were on the victim's side.
>>29720609
Also
>gov stages fascists massacre of Odessa
What happened in Odessa was REALLY fucked up, but it happened as a result of lots of stupidity and anger-driven retardation ("lol fuck those colorads they are assholes so let's just set this building they are hole up n on fire! That will show them and make them run away, despite the barricaded entrances! What can possibly go wrong?"), not as a premeditated slaughter.
>gov officials tell control towers to ask MH17 to lower its altitude
>rebels are baited into hitting MH17
Also unlikely. Whoever shot down the airplane just fucked up royally.
>>29720609
>Russia did nothing wrong for fucks sake.
It amazes me that there are people smart enough to use a computer who think this
>>29720609
>>Gov declared they wanted to ethnic cleanse Crimea
>>Russia acted to protect Crimea
You're one of those people that honestly thinks Russia isn't fighting in eastern Ukraine aren't you.
>>29720609
>>gov officials tell control towers to ask MH17 to lower its altitude
>>rebels are baited into hitting MH17
You honestly think this? Fucking hilarious. I can't wait to see the blog you read this on.
>>29720803
Well, I also think that Motherland did everything right... as far as it's own interests are concerned. And as the USA's example shows us, there can no morality within the boundaries of the realpolitik other than morality that is built upon your own interests.
>>29720822
Considering the ridiculous conspiracies you're spouting I don't think you're thinking at all
>>29720822
*there can BE no
>>29720813
>You're one of those people that honestly thinks Russia isn't fighting in eastern Ukraine aren't you.
Define "Russia".
Enlisted men of VS RF under orders sending them there? Unproven and retarded.
Volunteers who are citizens of Russian Federation not under any orders whom Russian border guard conveniently misses when they cross the border in their full airsoft gear? Sure there's thousands of those there. Problem westerner?
>>29720828
>Considering the ridiculous conspiracies you're spouting
I'm not >>29720609, I am >>29720753, >>29720850 and >>29720799 . Show me what exactly in my posts is "ridiculous conspiracy".
>>29720850
>Enlisted men of VS RF under orders sending them there? Unproven and retarded.
Yeah what a coincidence what Russian paratroopers got caught at the front line
And that Russian tanks were destroyed in Ukraine on the same day their crewmen died
And all that Russian artillery shown firing into Ukraine attacking Ukrainian positions
All of those are """""""volunteer citizens"""""""
>>29720553
I agree with your point anon, but just wanted to add that Yugoslavia is a bad example for what you're saying. Yugoslavia didn't have a single or multiple of it's states secede; Yugoslavia dissolved - meaning that the country stopped existing. The fact that Serbia (and Montenegro with it at the time) kept the name of Yugoslavia afterwards for a while should not confuse you, as Yugoslavia stopped existing when its states became separate entities. Dissolution and secession are completely different things in the aspect of law.
Guess the Russians are up early on this board. No, the Ukrainians aren't part of NATO despite how much they try, and I doubt they're going to make it in for another few years if at all. The whole maidan coup was rather interesting as the clankening, but I don't see what we really gained from the situation other than an international headache and the rise of even more shit-flinging between Russiaboo and Ameriboo posters. I do wonder sometimes how fucking incompetent the current administration is considering how they've managed to completely fuck up on most things foreign policy related in the past several years, with a few exceptions.
>>29720822
>motherland
Hey pal the USSR has been dead for years now, get over it.
>bitches about realpolitik
>when Putin is a massive utilized of it
Don't get me wrong I think properly used realpolitik is great, it's just that Obama clearly has no real talent in it compared to Putin.
>>29719815
Ukraine should be allowed into the EU. Just cut away DNR and LNR, leave Crimea with Russia and bring the rest into the EU.
I'd rather 40 million Ukrainians than 1 million Arabs.
>>29720850
hey let me remind you that your beloved 3rd world shithole country is still in war at ukraine.
They haven't won against a 3rd rate corrupt shitty military with little training that is literally right nextdoor.
Please go ahead how russia stronk and invade europe, if they keep perfomring like they have for the past 60 years I might end up dying by laughing at your shitty totalitarian shithole
>>29720900
I'd rather take untalented obama and keep my freedom and rights over dictator putinka who shovels cash into his and his comrades pockets while spending what he can't fit on propaganda any day.
>>29720881
>Yeah what a coincidence what Russian paratroopers got caught at the front line
What the fuck PARATROOPERS would be doing AT THE FUCKING FRONT LINE? Their whole bleeding point is getting sent well beyond that. Also (rooster_proof.jpeg)
>And that Russian tanks were destroyed
What Russian tanks? VSU and VSN btth also have(had) T-72s. The only ones Russia has that Ukraine doesn't are T-72B2 and B3 modifications. Which were never photographed in the ATO area, and would be a huge bitch to differentiate from B1 by just photos of wreckage. Markings claims are also shite, since:
1. Russia and Urkaine both use the same tactical markings system inherited from USSR.
2. Most VSN units are using Russia-related symbolic and memorabilia.
>And all that Russian artillery shown firing into Ukraine attacking Ukrainian positions
It's not like rebels don't have any artillery. And I can post a picture of a Paladin shooting somewhere at something. And then claim that it's shown attacking a children's hospital in Nigeria. Chemical Weapons in Iraq-level proof.
>>29720925
So would I pal, I wasn't expressing any support for the Russkies in my post.
>>29719815
Your English is atrocious. Rewrite your post so it's at least somewhat intelligible.
>>29720900
>Hey pal the USSR has been dead for years now, get over it.
NEVAR
>bitches about realpolitik
>when Putin is a massive utilized of it
It really fucking sucks that the current international relations and norms have degraded to such point and I blame the US for lowering the bar, but Motherland has to play by these rules or we're fucked.
>>29719815
>So if Ukraine was part of NATO
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/nato_countries.htm
>>29720985
>>29720947
Are you being facetious, have you seen the evidence and ignored it, or are you actually unaware of the sheer amount of Russian military forces in Ukraine?
>>29721016
<--------
>>29721023
I'll take all three, Johnny.
>>29720820
>You honestly think this? Fucking hilarious. I can't wait to see the blog you read this on.
It's not a blog. I linked my source.
Watch the video of the German independent journalist.
Then explain this:
>where are the black boxes
>where can I publicly access recordings
>why didn't Ukrainian gov manage to reach the place of the incident
>why Western press managed to
>why only Netherlands and not an international commisson
>why non-disclosure agreements were signed
>why no evidence of communication with land radars
>>29721047
>where are the black boxes
>where can I publicly access recordings
>why didn't Ukrainian gov manage to reach the place of the incident
>why Western press managed to
>why only Netherlands and not an international commisson
>why non-disclosure agreements were signed
>why no evidence of communication with land radars
Because everyone involved is an incompetent doofus and political powers on all sides (except Netherlands) would prefer to just forget about it.
Hahaha, doesn't matter what you say, vatniks.
We are going to get you this time too and fuck up your third world country without firing a single bullet.
But until then, enjoy the economic crisis! Enjoy it next year too and the year after that and...well, just learn your place and it won't feel so bad, okay?
>>29721068
Is this what /k/ommandos mean when they say that /k/ now is nothing but these "bait" and "/pol/" things?
>>29720947
Just wait for it boys,
any second now this sheltered retard is going to ask for number plates as proof
>>29720974
I wasn't implying you did buddy. The choise is obvious
>>29720799
>What happened in Odessa was REALLY fucked up, but it happened as a result of lots of stupidity and anger-driven retardation ("lol fuck those colorads they are assholes so let's just set this building they are hole up n on fire! That will show them and make them run away, despite the barricaded entrances! What can possibly go wrong?"), not as a premeditated slaughter.
Man... man...
Let me explain you how things work.
NO GOVERNMENT WILL EVER DECLARE OPEN ALLEGIANCE WITH RADICAL GROUPS.
>Putin declared he had no contacts with Crimean bikies, who did the dirty jobs the military couldn't do.
>But we all know that even if there was no official contact between these paramilitary bikies and the army... things were agreed under the table and bikies were being fed weapons and info.
I fully believe this.
I don't believe the 'random bikies' turned protectors of Crimea theme.
Similarly, I don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to know that:
>government was fully capable to prevent the Odessa massacre at the Orthodox citadel but they didn't have an interest to put a leash around the neck of fascist extremists.
Maybe they never planned the massacre on blueprint. But the sheer fact they let it happen freely shows where their interest lied. It showed everyone that fascists could do what the fuck they wanted.
I'm not a tinfoil hat. For fucks sake I know most of the declassified intelligence of my country and in the 70s for.my kinsmen the situation was the same: gov letting preventable thigs happen just to get an advantage. So I can relate to these issues and I don't think it is far fetched. It happens every fucking day.
>>29720803
That was a joke, man. Take it easy. I don't claim Russia has clean handa. But surely I don't think it acted that bad in most respects.
Of course two wrongs don't make a right.
But why should I favour the theory Russia engineered everything (as some anons suggest)? Why should I blame Russia only for what happened to Ukraine?
>>29720813
>You're one of those people that honestly thinks Russia isn't fighting in eastern Ukraine aren't you.
I'm not saying Russian paramilitaries and nationals aren't fighting in Eastern Ukraine.
What I am saying is that Russia is just harvesting from a situation it didn't create.
As far as I am concerned, the only government that shot its own people has been the Ukrainian one. That's one thing for sure.
>>29721114
>I'm not a tinfoil hat
Yes you are.
>NO GOVERNMENT WILL EVER DECLARE OPEN ALLEGIANCE WITH RADICAL GROUPS
It doesn't mean that every fuck up is actually a premeditated crime. Especially if it looks amazingly like a genuine fuck up. Plus there were next to no Right Sector members at the sight, most of the people to blame were just angry pro-Kiev bydlo.
>but they didn't have an interest to put a leash around the neck of fascist extremists.
That is because they are incompetent idiots who couldn't run a country to save their own lives, as the incident only provided pro-Russian side with ammo in an argument, with no positive effect for Kiev.
> I don't think it is far fetched
It's pretty far retched.
>>29721114
>a brand new, highly disorganized government has an armed insurrection on its eastern border, and Russian troops in Crimea to worry about
>fully capable of preventing spur-of-the moment acts of radical groups
>>29720881
And even so?
The Russians are preventing the slaughter of Eastern Ukrainian of Russian descent at a time in which the Ukrainian government lets fascists roam the country and is unable to guarantee the safety if its own citizens to the point of shooting them and declaring war on one of its own regions.
>>29720888
That's, I guess, the perspective with which I opened the thread.
>>29720905
You'll never satisfy Schengen treaties.
You don't even have freedom of Press for fucks sake.
You used to be slightly better than Belarus.
But now? Fuck you.
>>29720925
Putina really is like Berlusconi, but just with more power and in a country with lower literacy than Italy.
>>29720850
you are literally fooling no one but yourself with that "its all volunteers" rhetoric
>>29721186
>You used to be slightly better than Belarus
HEY DON'T BE OF MEAN TO THE LITTLE NEE-CHAN!!!
>>29720947
but there were chemical weapons in Iraq...
>>29720947
>It's not like rebels don't have any artillery
They fucking do because some are defected Ukrainian military.
Evidence is in the German video.
In fact Ukrainian army had to draft young people to fill in the deserters' gaps.
Then if the Donbass people ALSO have agreements with Russia, that's a matter of self-determination. If I govern myself I can agree to what pleases me most and don't have to justify my choices.
>>29719815
Topkek, never trust anything a Russian or serb tells you, lying is natural to them
>>29720976
I got awarded an MA by an important English uni so I guess my language proficiency is okay.
I might have just written OP in a hasty manner and with some typos due to my mobile's keyboard.
But of course every day is a good day for ad hominems on 4chan.
:)
>>29719905
When the majority of the 'separatist' fighters never lived in Ukraine and their entire leadership was made of Russian nationals, it is dubious to call it a civil war.
>>29719906
>Because that's exactly what the Russian media say.
>>29721023
1. Post proofs of Russian soldiers (not paramilitary or private citizens fighting).
2. Post proofs that Donbass doesn't have a right to reject the rulings of a government installed by means of a coup.
All things considered, current Ukrainian gov is not legit so all rebels are good guys.
>>29721250
>When the majority
Eh. My pals in Lugansk say about 30-40%.
>>29721067
I agree some major human events are just caused by a truck running on a road paved by idiots.
And I agree most of the times we ascribe to individual intentions what is instead caused by unfortunate contingencies.
But this time it looks a bit too fishy to buy the "those damn idiots" tale.
>>29719940
>And yet all the independent media, including EU media agrees it was the US that plotted the demiss of democracy in Ukraine by means of an engineered coup.
translation:
the media I listen to because it tells me what I want to hear, tells me the US engineered a coup in Ukraine
>>29721084
And consider I posted OP asking about NATO rules of engagement.
Btw since new janitors took up the broom, /pol/ has become the new /b/. And /b/ has become the new /gif/.
>>29721148
>It doesn't mean that every fuck up is actually a premeditated crime.
Same argument as yours:
>just because Putin acted this time, it doesn't mean he is the grey eminence behind the Ukrainian crisis. Maybe this time he is not trying to cuck the West, but just to secure some regional resources.
>>29721262
Post proofs that Yanukovych fled to Russia (an act in itself that says many things) because of a US led coup.
All things considered, the Crimean secession is not legit and all rebels are actually Russian nationals.
>>29721148
>it looks amazingly like a genuine fuck up
Post evidence. My documentary (the second one I posted ) says otherwise.
>>29721263
>my pals who are no where near where the fighting has been taking place can tell a guy from Lugansk apart from a guy from Russia at first glance.
>>29721154
>>a brand new, highly disorganized government
You forgot the main feature:
>ilegitimate government
Why the fuck are you people defending the monstrous actions of the fucking current Ukrainian gov?
>>29721314
A documentary is not evidence.
>>29721228
Thanks muslimbro.
I am aware you Muslims always tell the truth. :^)
>>29721329
Why are you such a stupid fuck who falls for blatant propaganda?
If the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate, even though it was elected, then you are saying the Crimean secession was illegitimate.
>>29721329
>Why the fuck are you people defending the monstrous actions of the fucking current Ukrainian gov?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tYq4wBgAY0
>>29721250
>Based Donbass people are fighting by proxy for their freedom.
>They are so based they managed to hire the Russian army to do their job in their stead.
Aside from this bullshit, what matters is what the people want. Not what the gov wants.
>>29721260
Notorious shop.
>>29720947
>active duty Russian soldiers were not in Ukraine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zssIFN2mso
inb4 complaining about Vice to dodge the issue
>>29721355
>what matters is what the people want
I doubt the folks living in eastern Ukraine wanted war, so this means the separatists are not what the people wanted.
>>29721362
Exactly.
>>29721288
>the media I listen to because it tells me what I want to hear, tells me the US engineered a coup in Ukraine
Stop ad hominem against me.
I started watching documentaries that were against my opinion. I found *some* things to be convincing. Others not so convincing.
I have yet to finish.
Just because I disagree with you you cannot assume that I am a wishful thinker who watches only things that pleases him.
Your argument:
>he disagrees with me
>therefore he must have watched only things that confirmed his opinion.
Wrong.
Actually I came from an anti-Russian perspective into the topic. And here we are. I wouldn't even be arguing if I weren't so close-minded.
In fact I posted OP exactly because I was doubting the Russian narrative.
What surprised me was the German narrative of independent shooters who were the first to hit the fighting field. So for fucks sake dob't accuse me of wishful thinking because I don't even have an informed opinion yet.
Fuckint trolls you cannot limit yourselves to just expose facts and sources, can't you?
>>29721355
They were pretty okay being there, other than having to live in a run down country.
If they thought ukraine was bad, wait till they have to live under russia
>>29719815
Putin got away because Ukraine is absolutely worthless and NATO couldn't give a shit about worthless scumbag Ukrainian pigs,the country just isn't supposed to exist
Let's see him touch Poland,
Russians will be torched if they fuck with bestball
>>29721410
>Fuckint trolls you cannot limit yourselves to just expose facts and sources, can't you?
I wonder if you grasp the irony of you saying this.
>>29721341
Don't take it from me but one of the most prominent figures in Serbian politics lad.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrica_%C4%86osi%C4%87
>>29719940
Yankovich was a corrupt shithole stealing money from the people and not doing anything useful.
The coup was against joining EU, which is large and prosperous vs joining with russia, who just commited genocide in ukraine only a some decades a go. It's easy for western europeans and americans go "meh" but you don't understand how much people around russia hate and mistrust russia after they got shat on and killed for not liking to be shat on for 60 years straight.
Falling into USSR meant a stagnation at best and regression at worst ontop of countless human casualties for no reason.
For that reason I find it hard to believe it was CIA organized, people knew their country would do better and wanted it and the demonstration turned sour.
>>29721310
>Post proofs that Yanukovych fled to Russia (an act in itself that says many things) because of a US led coup.
I don't need proofs because I don't think it was a 100% US coup.
US do something different.
Ever heard of project GLADIO? Of course you haven't. Otherwise you wouldn't be here talking nonsense.
The US don't always plan coup, but rather they give funding to extremists groups.
It's like financint start-ups. You throw some cash here and there, possibly by proxy, and you make sure that whoever seizes power remembers to thank you for his success.
Another thing they do (as they did in GLADIO) is to finance paramilitary groups. Gladio was meant to be a network of freedom fighters armed and prepared to resist behind enemy lines in case of Soviet invasion.
Problem is Gladio people had to be anti-communists. So they were drafted amont the European fascists. As soon as they found themselves in control of weapons and realized how skilled they were, they INDEPENDENTLY tried to stage coups using the means provided to them by the US. E.g. "golpe Borghese" in Italy. Notoriously staged (and failed) by US-armed fascists.
I don't stand by the claim the US plotted the Ukrainian coup. But surely they funded anti-Russian fascists as they usually do (see above) as part of the every day US foreign policy.
As usual (again, like Iraq, Cuba, Libya, Italy, most Central America, etc.) these financed people grow bold and start upsetting things.
Now tell.me this time fascists were just genuine fascist with no secret foreign help.
>>29721472
they werent' fachisths tho, they were normal people who wanted to be part of EU and see yankovovich step down.
Yes unarguably there were and still are faschists factions, but they are everywhere in eastern europ thanks to soviets and communism. Slowly with the globalisation they are being weeded out and socially looked down upon by their fellow countrymen for being radical
>>29721342
>If the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate, even though it was elected, then you are saying the Crimean secession was illegitimate.
Yatsenyuk government was installed after the coup = illegitimate
The legitimate government is Yanukovich
Crimea rightfully seceded with Russia's help when Yanukovich was ousted.
Donbass = the same, but current fascist government (Yatsenyuk) is fighting its own people in Donbass
What's wront with this?
>>29721348
>posts video
>video is debunked in the comments
>>29721397
Unless it is proven the majority of them are fighting or supporting the fight.
>>29720850
There's literally pictures of FSB operating during the early parts of the war you massive retard.
>>29721420
>If they thought ukraine was bad, wait till they have to live under russia
Freedom = their choice of shithole.
>>29721455
>Yankovich was a corrupt shithole stealing money from the people and not doing anything useful.
And yet even the independent UN onservers said vote was legit.
>>29721455
>The coup was against joining EU, which is large and prosperous vs joining with russia, who just commited genocide in ukraine only a some decades a go. It's easy for western europeans and americans go "meh" but you don't understand how much people around russia hate and mistrust russia after they got shat on and killed for not liking to be shat on for 60 years straight.
Now explain this.
If Ukraine was going to steer away from Russia (for the reasons you described), why did anti-Russian fascists staged the coup?
Because in the end these anti-Russian fascists created the mess that broke Ukraine into pieces.
I don't know if you get my point. My qualm is: but then why the hell did this fascist people go apeshit crazy if Yanukovich (or who the fuck was in charge) had chosen to join Eu rather than Russia?
>>29721507
Okay, but even if Yanukovich didn't want to join the EU... he was legitimately elected.
An asshole, but UN observers said polls were legit.
So why the fuck did people vote for him? In the end it has been shown those who opposed him and staged the coup were a minority.
>because of some Swedecuck who kept calling me CIA shills and derailed the thread
Oh fuck, you met mr. Paranoid
He is legit schizophrenic and legitimately believe anyone who's not a slavaboo is actually CIA "KILL ALL WHITE CHILDREN" shill, while hypocritically shilling hardcore for Russia like they are actually going to save Sweden, kill all shitskins and breed pure "white" swedo-Russians.
Ironically he's never gonna reproduce, and if he did, he'd pollute the genepool much worse than shitskins.
But entire /pol/ is full of rusboos that refuse to believe there's any Russian military in Ukraine, and that all Ukrainians are Nazis(lol, and I thought a fascist state was /pol/'s wet dream)
Fucking shithole
>>29721314
I'm not here to fight your tinfoil.
>>29721323
My pals ARE in the Lugansk militia, and were fighting VSU until the armistice. Now they just sit on their asses.
> can tell a guy from Lugansk apart from a guy from Russia at first glance
They are talking about composition of their own units.
>>29721377
Drafted soldiers can have their service time over and go to Donbass. Contracted soldiers can file for a discharge and go to Donbass, and then return and then join up again to carry on with their jobs. So fucking what if they were enlisted men a few months before the conflict? They could easily be out of service in a matter of a day, free to go to Donbass out of their free will.
Never mind that the solid data from the documentary (location data on the photos) only proved that Russian selfie-making troops were stationed near the border (because GOD FORBID Russians from guarding their border when there's a military conflict going on in the area), and the only proof of the said soldier being in Donbass is "this rubble here looks like something in Uglegorsk, and the man who'se privacy we are invading feels uncomfortable talking to us about how he spends his time". And those claims of "military vehicles unique to Russia in Donbass" showing what looks like a T-72B1 are pure gold.
>>29721455
>The coup was against joining EU, which is large and prosperous vs joining with russia
>joining EU
>joining with russia
Uuuuuugh. Neither of those were on the political agenda at the time of Maidan.
>>29721633
I'm with you man.
I've opened this thread amid doubts about the reliability of info provided by Russian propaganda. E.g. the idea such unit was fully NATO.
But at the same time I cringed at the idea that pro-EU parties in Ukraine are basically fascists. Even Tymoshenko was not clean. But these pro-EU people are embarrassing.
So when I see them running Ukraine, I kinda understand the Russian perspective. I still think Putin is a bad boy... but EU is really being hijacked by extremists such as Le Pen and Poland Nazis who would love to be joined by the likes of Svoboda.
And this is not the EU I want for fucks sake.
But here I have been called a conspiracionist for thinking the West had an interest in funding those who eventually made the Euromaidan coup. And had an interest in hiding most or the criminal acts of the current Ukrainian gov.
I don't claim EU or US plotted the coup. I am just claiming some puppets got out of hand very quickly.
Russians are clearly supporting the secessionists in the Donbass region... but that's clearly the icing on a rotten cake.
But why do these ideas make a CIA shill out of me? I dunno. So I welcome the fact Swedetard is a schizophrenic.
>>29721548
Well post them.
>>29721691
>I'm not here to fight your tinfoil.
I'm not here to make my opinion pass. The more anybody says, the better informed I will be.
However you must accept some controversies on my behalf because you people are like oranges. Unless I take sides you are not giving me your red juice. So I have to craft my arguments in order to squeeze more from you.
>>29721425
For what purpose I wonder, Poland is a depopulating backwater with zero strategic assets and scarce natural resources. It is only relevant as a base for future western incursion eastwards, and as such can be cratered overnight by Kaliningrad garrison alone
>>29720609
>conspiracy dipshit
>german '''''''''''''''''''''reporter'''''''''''''''''''''''''
I have to say. you're easy to impress
>>29721744
Doesn't matter
It's Poland
Read some history
>>29721779
>It's Poland
So, the land that Russians and Europeans have to cross when they are attacking each other?
So far I understood:
>ethnic Russians in Donbas do not accept Ukrainian current gov
>they formed militias
>they are being helped by Russians
>Russian army is not officially on Ukrainian Donbass soil
>HOWEVER, Russia allows for its soldiers to be discharged, get a contract, and reappear in Donbass fighting for the rebels. Then they get discharged and can take up their position again in the Russian army.
>moreover there are many Russian nationals who are extremists and were happy to join the rebels in Donbass
>Russian-only vehicles is a hoax
>all of this doesn't prove Russia's direct military intervention in Donbass
>however, it proves that, wasn't it for Russia, the Donbass rebels would be rekt
>current Ukrainian government doesn't shy form killing civilians
>current government is concerned more about its own agenda than its own people
>current government told the military they are fighting Russian invaders and not fellow countrymen who are rebelling
>current government is happy to see Russian involvement because it provides a rationale for sending troops and repress all opposition elsewhere in the country on the basis they *may* be supported by Russia in some direct or indirect sense (a.k.a. all opposition is made of traitors)
>current government came to power because of a coup against filo-Russian president Yanukovich
>even if filo-Russian and corrupt as fuck, Yanukovich-s election was legit according to UN observers
>current government is pro-EU
>current government is anti-Russia
>current government is backed by fascists
>fascists took advantage of the weak government to do what the fuck they wanted
>except Crimea because Russia said "don't touch my navy base"
Shall I add something?
Does anyone want to dispute some of my points?
>>29721788
Democracy
>>29721778
But why do you say conspiracy? Have you watched the whole video?
This man was on the line. He saw who the rebels were.
Watch the fucking video.
>journalist
Aw wait. You believe only MSM? Like BBC, CNN... etc. ?
Just great.
>>29721791
You should add that you are braindead vatnik.
>>29721838
If you have nothing to add to my summary, please leave. This is not /b/.
>evidence the Donbass people is pro-rebels
All those who said otherwise are liars.
>>29721791
>HOWEVER, Russia allows for its soldiers to be discharged, get a contract, and reappear in Donbass fighting for the rebels. Then they get discharged and can take up their position again in the Russian army.
>moreover there are many Russian nationals who are extremists and were happy to join the rebels in Donbass
That's how I see it, yes.
>Russian-only vehicles is a hoax
Well, it's impossible to actually PROVE that no Russian vehicles are participating in the conflict. If Putin indeed has half a brain, he can send unupgraded T-72s and freely deny everything, as they are absolutely indistinguishable from what rebels and VSU are using.
>however, it proves that, wasn't it for Russia, the Donbass rebels would be rekt
Certainly, yes. Even in the most rabid pro-Russian circles nobody denies that Russian government supports the rebels in one way or another.
>current Ukrainian government doesn't shy form killing civilians
More likely they frequently fuck up into unwanted collateral damage due to incompetence and shit intel.
>current government is happy to see Russian involvement because it provides a rationale for sending troops and repress all opposition elsewhere in the country on the basis they *may* be supported by Russia in some direct or indirect sense (a.k.a. all opposition is made of traitors
>current government came to power because of a coup against filo-Russian president Yanukovich
>even if filo-Russian and corrupt as fuck, Yanukovich-s election was legit according to UN observers
>current government is pro-EU
>current government is anti-Russia
Yes to all these points.
>current government is backed by fascists
>fascists took advantage of the weak government to do what the fuck they wanted
Eh. They are certainly nationalists. Fascists are more of the Russian media meme.
>>29721871
>>29721852
Ok, vatnik. Dumbest thing ever is start discussion with retard.
>>29721892
>>29721531
>video is debunked in the comments
>read comments
>waaah waaaah nazi nazi nazi
yeah, totally proofs anything...
you mean pootin bots try to distort what happened
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P2Y0twLk30
>>29721891
So why have I been called tinfoil hat throughout the thread?
>>29721871
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tej_FaGwdt4
And here is the video of Donetsk population booing VSU POWs and wiping their feet on an Ukraine flag.
Because God forbid that there be different people with different points of view on such subject as a civil war, right?
>>29721906
>>29721871
>>29721892
>>29721906
>old lady who is told by Russian media (the only kind broadcast in eastern Ukraine now) that the hohol government is fascist
>>29721917
For
>Odessa incident was totally caused by Kiev gov!
mostly
>>29721871
>>29721892
>>29721906
>>29721926
Baba has seen more shit than you will ever see.
>>29721926
This is where you can dismiss the old lady altogether.
>>29721929
And I thought Amerifags were all brainwashed to death.
>>29721931
My fault then.
>>29721918
>Because God forbid that there be different people with different points of view on such subject as a civil war, right?
Civil wars are a nasty affair indeed.
>>29721791
>>current government is backed by fascists
russsia has more fascist in their parliamaent than ukraine will ever have.
how many of them are in the ukrainian parliament? 3%?
russian propaganda is so easy to see trough... as if they don't even try
>Guys, check out this russian propaganda video! It's sound like a pure bullshit!
>Uhh.. You sure? Also I'm not Putin shill, I swear.
>>29719815
Well aren't you a CIA shill?
>>29722014
Trolling, trolling never changes.
>>29722014
STFU tripfag
>>29722003
>russsia has more fascist in their parliamaent than ukraine will ever have
Nah. Edinaya Rossiya is a corrupted "party of power" (read: "we'll support any bullshit by our prez") first and nationalist last. The closest thing Duma has to nationalists and fascists is the eccentric leader of Liberal-Democratic party Vladimir Volfovich Jirinivskiy. And even then - he's a clown who gets exposure from radical statements, not a nationalist with any kind of power.
And while Right Sector and their likes did not get shit in the Ukrainian parliament, the "Peter Poroshenko's Bloc" is absolutely built on retarded nationalism.
>>29722096
> Jirinivskiy
Jirinovsky, of course.
I'm sorry Vladimir Volfovich please don't come and kick my ass.
From 1:29:00 of the second video I posted evidence is offered for:
>refusal of Ukrainian government to discuss peace
>intention to solve the issue militarily
>NATO trainers
>Humvees been shipped
>American companies Chevron and Shell buying Donbass land
>Ukraine being the petri dish of Monsanto
What of these claims have I to believe?
>>29722096
I assume that fascist can be anybody who is a radical nationalist in some sense.
So I expect Russia to have fascists in the traditional sense but also communists who are basically anti-fascists but behave like fascists in all respects.
This supports the idea:
https://youtu.be/F4D1gPHmceo
>>29722193
>Yanukovich: "I will postpone the treaty"
>Oligarchs: "fuck you. Euromaidan 4ever".
>Now they are in power
>"we will postpone the treaty".
WTF
>>29722193
>the US gov has declared spending billions tax payers money to fund Ukrainian protest movements
Sauce?
If that is true, the idea the coup was not a US plan is ludicrous
>>29722154
>So I expect Russia to have fascists in the traditional sense
There certainly are skinheads in Russia, but the entire nationalistic policy is extremely marginalized in media.
>but also communists who are basically anti-fascists but behave like fascists in all respects
Uuuuuugh. Even going from traditional Western POV of "lol Germans lol Russians they are all the same totalitarians!" - Stalin died in 1953. Since that, there were Khrushchev's Ottepel', Brezhnev's Zastoi, Gorbachev's Perestroika, Union falling apart, failed GKChP coup, the 90s and Putin. Contemporary Communists have nothing to do with the brutal apparatchiki of Stalin's age. They are mostly ancient farts who are comfortable with retaining their comfy Duma seats on old-people votes for remaining Putin's loyal "opposition, but not really opposition", and their political platform can be summarized as "Despite all the ideological differences we wholeheartedly support comrade Putin's initiatives. Also Soviet Union should not have been broken apart and that was a crime!"
>>29722240
U.S spending billion on "democracy support" all over the world. Like here in Poland all kinds of "human rights observers" and "pro-democracy activists" is openly funded by U.S, especially now when we elect PiS.
>>29722273
Okay but surely there must be some nostalgics who keep polishing their guns hoping for CCCP to be great again.
Actually I prefer to divide humanity into moderates and radicals rather than left and right. Ideologically there is difference beteween all totalitarians, but frankly it seems to be all radical groups have the same dynamics -- regardless of the fact they are Nazi, Fascists, Skinheads, SHARP, punks or whatever.
>>29722193
>>29722240
I'm fairly certain that I saw dozens of millions (not billions though) spent on "supporting the development of Democracy in Ukraine" which could mean anything up to funding Maidan, but that was some time ago and I can't be bothered to look it up again, so feel free to call me out on this bullshit.
>>29722273
Well Ukrainians don't exactly follow the same ideals as nazi Germany, but that doesn't stop the vatniks from spouting their catchphrase all over the place.
>>29722311
If you funded a political party in the US you would be charged. So US does abroad what is illegal within US.
Moreover, this is not "democracy supoort" but blatant push to US agenda. I don't think it has to do with democracy. Not when you give cash to Svoboda.
>>29722342
That's what I call "startup politics". It's not real democracy stuff.
You just throw cash here and there and see who emerges. Once somebody shows they have the stuff to make it, you focus just on them and suddenly you have pro-Amerkcans running for the presidency (or staging a coup).
Is foreign intrusion fruitful for democracy? I doubt.
>>29722331
>Okay but surely there must be some nostalgics who keep polishing their guns hoping for CCCP to be great again.
They got BTFOd politically in the failed GKChP coup, and factually during the Chechnya Wars. Since those, it became glaringly obvious that "GLORIOUS RECONQUEST FOR THE MOTHERLAND" is not something possible in the upcoming 50 years at the very least.
Of course the bleeding MOST of Russian population is nostalgic about the Soviet Union in one way or another, but due to reasons both cultural (too much has changed since then) and administrative (Putin's platform is "miltipolar world" aka "down with the US hegemony", not "restoring the Union", and Putin is our God Emperor praise be onto Him), and pragmatical, nobody actually expects the Union making a comeback.
Add to that the fact that the strongest nostalgiafags here are the military, but all the "restorationist eagles" were completely cleared out during/after the failed coup, the purges solidifying those who remained as the supporters of "democratic" Russia, as opposed to the Soviet one.
>>29722344
"Ukrainian fascists" is most certainly a meme. But then again - I never expect media to try anything other than bullshitting me.
>>29722331
> but frankly it seems to be all radical groups have the same dynamics -- regardless of the fact they are Nazi, Fascists, Skinheads, SHARP, punks or whatever
Again - that's just the perspective of someone on the outside. It's kinda like "Chinese? Japanese? They all look slant-eyed yellowskins to me"
But look closer and you'll see that there's a whole world of difference between, say, German Nazis and hardcore Stalinists. It's just that these differences seem inconsequential to a Westerner, while they may be EXTREMELY important to us.
>>29722513
Can you make an example of relevant difference between (contemporary) hardcore Stalinists and (contemporary) hardcore Nazis?
Is useless to state I don't get it if you don't show me.
For me they both pay little respect to human lives and their integrity.
>>29722749
Easily.
Neostalinists discriminate by one's contribution to the State. Neonazis discriminate by one's nationality.
Neostalinists are extreme etatists (pro-state) and demand mass-nationalization of absolutely everything. Neonazis support private capital and demand nationalization of property owned by untrustworthy, foreign capital and "degenerates".
Neostalinists demand harsher laws all-around. Neonazis demand harsher laws for "undesirables" and easier laws for "proper folk"
That is to name a few. I can carry on.
>>29720947
>What Russian tanks? VSU and VSN btth also have(had) T-72s
Ukraine only has one company of T-72B1s and are have only been active for about a year and are different from the Russian ones that are rampant on the Pro Russian side.
>The only ones Russia has that Ukraine doesn't are T-72B2 and B3 modifications. Which were never photographed in the ATO area, and would be a huge bitch to differentiate from B1 by just photos of wreckage.
No one is saying that there are B2s in Ukraine. Russia doesn't even have the B2. And there are countless photos of T-72MB and B3s in Ukraine. There are even photos of a T-90A platoon out side of Luhansk.
>It's not like rebels don't have any artillery
Yea where did they get all of this artillery in the first month of the war?
>VSU
RIDF
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/09/29/russias-6th-tank-brigade-pt-2/
>>29722810
Even Stalinists tend to develop nazi-like feelz, even if they are not officially on their Stalinist agendas.
>invading other countries
>killing people
>a certain concept of degeneracy (e.g. both nazi and Stalinists are against gay people because homosexuality does not contribute to the wealth of the country in terms of offspring)
>build concentration camps
>secret police
>removal of dissidents
Different mind, I daresay, but very same hammer when it hits the anvil.
>>29722749
>For me they both pay little respect to human lives and their integrity.
Just as I said - you have your own set of values, cultivated by the humanistic, individualistic Western society of consumption. Even when two groups outside of your own circle have very different values, goals and ideals - they seem same to you, as they are both equally far away from your own values. And even when you ask someone else from your own society for their opinion - he will state the same, even if you think of his position as being completely different from your own (say, you are a conservative and he is a liberal), but it is not, as you both come from the context of Western civilization values.
You see that both Nationalists and Stalinists are dismissive of individual on all levels - of his life, of his freedoms, et cetera, and therefore they seem equal.
But within our values, these ideologies being dismissive of individual is of no consequence for that precise reason - all the range of our prevailing ideologies is very collectivist on the whole. So the woes of an individual are irrelevant for all of us, while what we see as THE REAL ISSUES seems equally irrelevant for you.
>>29722876
>Yea where did they get all of this artillery in the first month of the war?
Where did Svoboda got the cash?
>>29722913
Yea I'm sure the CIA was flying in sheet metal to make riot shields and empty beer bottles to make Molotov cocktails around the clock.
>>29722907
>You see that both Nationalists and Stalinists are dismissive of individual on all levels - of his life, of his freedoms, et cetera, and therefore they seem equal.
This makes them equal because they differ only in superstructure but not in structural aspects.
E.g. they worship their leaders and ideals. Of course thet worship different leaders (superstructure) but they can easily and scientifically reduced to the same phenomenon -- i.e. religion. Or para-religious views of the State, if you are Hegelian enough.
But the superstructure thing should ring a bell in your head...
>>29722876
>are different from the Russian ones that are rampant on the Pro Russian side
>rampant
Most of VSN tanks are T-64s.
>There are even photos of a T-90A platoon out side of Luhansk.
THIS IS GONNA BE GOOD. Postem.
>Yea where did they get all of this artillery in the first month of the war?
From the defected v/ch's?
>VSU
What's wrong with that? That's their official name.
>https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/09/29/russias-6th-tank-brigade-pt-2/
>not a B3
>not a B3
>not a B3
>not a B3
>tactical markings (never mind that Ukraine and Russia are largely using the same one from the USSR)
>"he was a serviceman in VS RF a few months prior to that so when he went to fight in Donbass he certainly did so as a serviceman, FO SURE"
>RIDF
Ukrainiam shill.
>>29722907
If God doesn't exist
And individuals do not matter
Why do you even bother?
Basically you are saying a great State with unhappy people is better than a smaller State full of happily people.
I wish I knew better.
Outsourcing happiness...
>>29722905
>invading other countries
>killing people
Every government on Earth does that when the reasons are good enough.
>a certain concept of degeneracy
In Hitler and Stalin's times the whole world treated homosexuality as a mental illness.
>build concentration camps
These were invented by the British. Are they Nazi or Stalinist?
>secret police
Every single nation on Earth RIGHT NOW has this in one form or another.
>removal of dissidents
Joseph_McCarthy.jpg
Those are all very crude generalizations created by the US media during the cold war for lumping the opposition all in one big ball of Evil.
>>29723065
>These were invented by the British. Are they Nazi or Stalinist?
Fascists. Britbongs are fascists.
I told you. All these tools to reduce human freedom: they are all the same shit.
>Every single nation on Earth RIGHT NOW has this in one form or another.
AAAAAAND it's a fascist thing.
If everyone has it it doesn't mean it's good.
>Joseph_McCarthy.jpg
He was a fascist too.
Do you see? We have a clear-cut picture of shared practices. No matter what the ideology is, they are widespread means if oppression in favour of governments or states and to the disadvantage of average Joe and Jane.
This
Is
Fascism
McCarthy was a fascist.
I didn't grow up in the US. So please stop arguing from a US POV.
>>29722993
I'm not shilling for etatism ITT and I don't plan to. I'm only explaining why very different collectivist ideologies may seem identical to someone coming from the background with other values.
>>29722957
> but not in structural aspects
Marx says their structures differ greatly because of fundamentally different understanding of proper administration of means of production.
>Stalinist - all belongs to the State
>Nazi - all belongs to a wealthy burgher (of a proper nationality)
>E.g. they worship their leaders and ideals
That's one broad generalization you are making, as it requires the definition of the cult of personality. Many things can be seen as a para-religious worship - from veneration of the Founding Fathers to central role of money on the modern capitalist society. So a good defining trait that maketh not.
> But the superstructure thing should ring a bell in your head
The issue is that the structural differences they do have seem inconsequential in the eye shaped by a society of a different superstructure, and vise-versa.
>>29723139
>Fascists. Britbongs are fascists.
>AAAAAAND it's a fascist thing.
>He was a fascist too.
>This Is Fascism
By such an approach EVERY GOVERNING FORCE ON EARTH EVER was/is/will be fascist, and therefore the word "fascism" loses all and any meaning.
>>29723166
>By such an approach EVERY GOVERNING FORCE ON EARTH EVER was/is/will be fascist, and therefore the word "fascism" loses all and any meaning.
Welcome to anarchism, bitch.
Seriously: fascism ensues when government practices of oppression become fetishized.
>>29723194
>Welcome to anarchism, bitch.
That's not a justification.
>Seriously: fascism ensues when government practices of oppression become fetishized
Going from there, a monarchy is the epitome of fascism, which doesn't make a lick of sense. You should come up with a different (and less loaded) word for government involvement in an individual's life.
>>29723241
>Going from there, a monarchy is the epitome of fascism, which doesn't make a lick of sense. You should come up with a different (and less loaded) word for government involvement in an individual's life.
I'll settle for "oppression" then.
>>29723241
>That's not a justification.
Just to prove you fascism is not devoid of all meaning if you see what I have said so far from an anarchist pov.
>>29722987
>Most of VSN tanks are T-64s
Yes I know that. I was talking about a company of T-72s they activated this past year (no more than 10 and include a few T-72B1s captured from the seps.). They also activated a company of T-80BVs.
>THIS IS GONNA BE GOOD. Postem
ok here ya go
https://informnapalm.org/en/russian-t-90-tanks-136th-motorized-rifle-brigade-luhansk-region/
>not a B3
Ok show me one Ukrainian tank that has Kontak-5 ERA that is or was in active service in the past 20 years.
>>29723241
>You should come up with a different (and less loaded) word for government involvement in an individual's life.
Basically that's the same reason I cringe when I hear Ameritards use the word "racism" instead of "discrimination".
To them, everything is "racism".
Religious intolerance? Racism.
Ethnic dislike? Racism.
Sexism? Racism.
Eating meat? Specism (subset of racism).
Racial discrimination? Racism.
All is racism for the average Amerifag.
>>29723273
>ok here ya go
Now wait a minute.
Are Russian soldiera allowed to post pics of action on Vkontakte?
Too good to be true?
>desert area
It could be Kazakhstan as far as I know.
Those pics could have been taken in my backyard.
>>29723273
>ok here ya go
>so this here trees show that this photo was taken in Ukraine, which shows that this tanks have participated in fighting against the VSU
>Ok show me one Ukrainian tank that has Kontak-5 ERA that is or was in active service in the past 20 years.
Containers for Ukrainian "Nozh" ERA look identical to those for Kontact-5.
>>29723252
>I'll settle for "oppression" then.
Fair enough.
>>29723261
From an anarchistic POV all the governments are evil as they all oppress the population to a degree. But then again, you're not gonna argue that they are the same?
>>29723331
>Are Russian soldiera allowed to post pics of action on Vkontakte?
If it's a military drill for keeping troops around and in top shape in case the whole conflict goes far south (like Putin claims) - it would not be forbidden. Which goes nicely with the idea that the selfie-making Russian servicemen in the area are all indeed around Taganrog and not on the Ukrainian soil.
So apparently there is a miss conception going around.
T-72B3s, t-72MBs and T-72B mod. 1989 are not the same tanks. However are very similar and all use Kontak-5 ERA
The ones seen in Ukraine are Mostly the T-72MB and mod. 1989. How ever there are B3s but the are not as common because they have a wind speed detector that sticks up and is a give a away.
All three tanks are not used by Ukraine. Further more Ukraine has never used Kontak-5 ERA on any of it's active duty tanks. I believe they had a few prototypes but even then one could still tell the difference. Also Ukraine uses mostly T-64BVs and other types of T-64s. There are a few Ukrainian T-72s being used but they are very few in number and are a mix match of B1 generations. These number no more than 8-10 and belong to the 128th Brigade
pic related.
note: these have never seen combat, were brought into service in late 2015 and are the ONLY T-72s Ukraine has in service. They didn't have any in the beginning of the conflict.
>>29723331
>Are Russian soldiera allowed to post pics of action on Vkontakte?
>Too good to be true?
It hasn't stopped them. Most of the people called out have deleted there accounts and units are cracking down but a lot of people still do. Plus once it's on the internet it's there fore ever and all people have to do it screen shot it.
The US had to deal with the same problem in Iraq when some soldiers geo tagged some Apaches and ended up getting them destroyed by insurgent mortar fire. Russia is now just figuring this out.
I've heard stories where both sides post pictures of their encampments on social media and the other side finds it the same day and calls in fire one to their position. A lot of people got killed this way and keep getting killed.
>>29723465
>The ones seen in Ukraine are Mostly the T-72MB and mod. 1989
>Containers for Ukrainian "Nozh" ERA look identical to those for Kontact-5.
> How ever there are B3s but the are not as common because they have a wind speed detector
There is a handful of Ukrainian modifications of T-72 that also have the wind speed detector.
>are the ONLY T-72s Ukraine has in service. They didn't have any in the beginning of the conflict
They had more than 60 listed as in active duty before the conflict. Even if separatists stole half of those - they still had a plenty to use (and lose). It's very probable that a number of those 60 were indeed the prototypes of Ukrainian modifications, which explains the wind detector.
I want everyone ITT to stop for a moment to appreciate the sheer beauty of it:
>the attempts to determine presence of a major military force in a massive military conflict basing on social network comments, shape of ERA containers on photos and geo tagging.
>>29723377
>Containers for Ukrainian "Nozh" ERA look identical to those for Kontact-5.
It absolutely does not. What are you 5? Yes they are both wedge shaped but that's it. The ERA on a T-64 Bulat looks completely different from Russian Kontak-5 ERA.
pic related
>>29723529
>The ones seen in Ukraine are Mostly the T-72MB and mod. 1989
>Containers for Ukrainian "Nozh" ERA look identical to those for Kontact-5
>>>>29723579
>There is a handful of Ukrainian modifications of T-72 that also have the wind speed detector.
The only active duty Ukrainian tank with it is the T-84 Oplot
>They had more than 60 listed as in active duty before the conflict
On paper yes, they were all rusting away in a tank grave yard but in reality they didn't have any.
> It's very probable that a number of those 60 were indeed the prototypes of Ukrainian modifications, which explains the wind detector.
not at all probable. The tanks in the AO with the wind detectors were all Russian B3s. The T-72s that were in their tank grave yards were all T-72Bs that could hardly even be called B1 standard.
Did some more research. Even looked at some RIDF pages.
Behold the only Ukrainian T-72 ever fitted with Kontak-5 ERA and yes it was a prototype.
>>29723579
The discernible difference comes to the size of gaps between the containers. Which can vary by the amount of containers mounted.
>The only active duty Ukrainian tank with it is the T-84 Oplot
Which is a modification of T-80 from the grave yards, which shows that Ukrainians do have wind spreed detectors and DO put them on whatever they dig out of the rust yards.
>On paper yes
On paper they have OVER 500
> they were all rusting away in a tank grave yard but in reality they didn't have any
How convenient of an explanation! It's just amazing that we can neglect official Ukrainian documents, but must respect the social network comments.
>The tanks in the AO with the wind detectors were all Russian B3s
Because yousaidso?
>>29719815
And here go the kids again, thinking geopolitics has anything to do with morals and right or wrong.
Why are you arguing with a putinfluffer troll?
>>29723711
>Which is a modification of T-80 from the grave yards, which shows that Ukrainians do have wind spreed detectors and DO put them on whatever they dig out of the rust yards.
Okshow me ONE example where a tank in the AO is using one. These T-80BVs that they just refurbished don't have the.
>On paper they have OVER 500
and how many were fit or service? Ukraine switched to a only T-64 army back in the 90s.
>How convenient of an explanation! It's just amazing that we can neglect official Ukrainian documents, but must respect the social network comments.
Papers lie, pictures don't
Because yousaidso?
Because there is ZERO evidence that there are any other vehicles in the AO that use the system. I have probably seen over a thousand pictures and videos of tanks from the Donbas conflict and I have only seen the T-72B3 with the wind sensor.
>>29723785
because they can easily be proven wrong.
>>29721633
>Ukrainians are Nazis(lol, and I thought a fascist state was /pol/'s wet dream)
Well that's because they're actually JEWISH nazis, not the ''''''good''''' kind of Nazis.
