Dragon Skin
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
So I noticed a discrepancy.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/files/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf
The review of this product says failures @ 160 degrees F and -60 degrees but multiple private studies directly contradict this.
Dragon Skin Level III armor was also tested the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, DDS, Stanford University Medical Center.[10] These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 °F (77 °C), then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 minutes prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five rounds of each ammunition type fired against each armor system—one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet (3.0 m):
5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3,718 feet (1,133 m) per second average velocity.
5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3,054 feet (931 m) per second average velocity.
7.62×39mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2,307 feet (703 m) per second average velocity.
.30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2,736 feet (834 m) per second average velocity.
All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.
>>30369934
In Fresno, California, a police department commissioned the purchase of Dragon Skin for its officers after a vest stopped all the bullets fired during a test, including .308 rounds from a rifle and 30 rounds from a 9mm MP5 fired from five feet away. The armor also stopped 40 rounds of PS-M1943 mild steel-core bullets from an AK-47 along with 200 9 mm full metal jacket bullet fired from a submachine gun.[9]
So my question is, why did this shit fail to begin with? It's literally just plates oriented in scales.
>>30369934
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTjWGAKyo4U
>>30369954
It's not though. It's actually based on silicon and is flexible.
Wtf is going on here?
Here's a guy shooting it in his backyard and indoors - Please notice the 7.62 rounds do not penetrate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RphBEyu4GoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzv92WJd76k
>>30369954
Heavy as balls and the stuff they sent the DoD may have just been a bad batch.
>>30369993
>lvl III armor owing what lvl III armor is supposed to do
Metal plates do the same thing while weighing less.
>>30370032
A bad batch? Why would Pinnacle send the military, potentially it's most lucrative contractor by far, a faulty batch of it's vests which can be SEEN taking multiple repeat shots from heavy assault rifles and performing substantially better than the Interceptor?
Let's say they did get a bad batch. Why wouldn't they ask for more? Why does every single independent test check out for Dragon Skin, and yet the DoD says it doesn't and bans it.
>>30369954
Why did they have a dentist test it instead of an engineer?
>>30369934
>moved to ambient air for approximately 90 minutes prior to being shot.
Not sure but maybe this is a factor.
>>30369954
Sometimes even the good suppliers of armor send a bad batch.
>>30370091
A dentist from the Stanford University Medical Center in cooperation with local law enforcement.
>>30370093
So re-test it. Did you know they banned it two months before the professional soldier tests were even begun?
>>30370107
I repeat the question
>>30370053
Excuse me, but no. Plate armor shatters following multiple repeat shots from a 7.62. It is the bullet that shatters when it strikes dragon skin, not the other way around; that's what makes it unique.
>>30370072
>A bad batch? Why would Pinnacle send the military, potentially it's most lucrative contractor by far, a faulty batch of it's vests which can be SEEN taking multiple repeat shots from heavy assault rifles and performing substantially better than the Interceptor?
Because you can't nondestructively test vests for their ability to stop bullets. Also videos of armor stopping rounds doesn't mean all the vests will perform the same. There is a reason people do this stuff in labs professionally, instead of farming it out to Joe in the backyard.
>Let's say they did get a bad batch. Why wouldn't they ask for more? Why does every single independent test check out for Dragon Skin, and yet the DoD says it doesn't and bans it.
Because guess what, if you fuck up and send a bad batch, that's on you, the military has no obligation to fuck around waiting for you to send more vests. Your QC isn't going to get better when you have to produce even more to fill contracts, so if you can't get it right with the vests you send for testing, you're probably going to do even worse for real.
>>30370122
Why does an engineer need to be on hand to subject a vest to 160 degrees Fahrenheit for 12 hours and then shoot at it? Anyone with a pair of eyes is qualified to do that.
>>30370149
MUH ASTM STANDARDS
>>30370136
Even on the off-hand and remote possibility they DID send a "faulty batch" to the DoD, what is preventing them from re-testing it once independent results are released directly contradicting their findings? Is the military really so capricious and arrogant?
>>30369977
If they place a plate there it could redirect force to the wearer's throat if shot
>>30370122
Because he's been involved in a shit ton of armor and ballistics testing in some of the best labs for a long ass time?
>>30370135
>literal retardation
>>30370114
>>30370166
Banning private purchase armor is nothing new. If you let pvt snuffy wear all the random fucking armor he buys off ebay, someone is going to get hurt and the Army is going to get hit with a lawsuit. So you ban the private purchase armor.
Also, nobody owes you a do-over if you fuck up and send shit vests to the test. Pinnacle knew what the stakes were and they fucked up. If you send shit to a test that will determine big contracts, then what will you do when you've actually earned the contract? Again, QC is not going to get better.
>>30370173
Right, that's why you should just let the round pass into the wearer's aorta, that'll be much better.
>>30370173
I would like to re-iterate this: the technology being used in the dragon skin is not metal. They are (the disks) are composed of silicon carbide ceramic matrices and laminates. They are super dense and super-hard while also remaining flexible. When bullets STRIKE these discs, they shatter rather than being absorbed because they are far harder than the metal projectile.
>>30370200
>When bullets STRIKE these discs, they shatter rather than being absorbed because they are far harder than the metal projectile.
Who is saying that the discs will become absorbed into the bullets?
>dragon skin shilling in 2016
Maximum overkek
>>30370185
Here is level III plate armor, which you say is equivalent, degrading and fracturing after only one test. So, I'm sorry you need to stoop to the level of calling me retarded, but... you're wrong. Skip to 7:30 to see the plate post test. Keep in mind that the dragon skin remains completely unharmed after each test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUH5lob3thQ
>>30370270
Why would I not "shill" for a product that could keep soldiers alive longer in combat? Why would I not be suspicious of the circumstances surrounding it's ban?
>>30370271
>literally no level of knowledge about armor
Oh wow, a fucking steel plate (that hasn't been issue for the US armed forces for literally over a decade) failed in a fucking youtube video test. I guess HP White Laboratory should just pack it up and go home, because apparently all level III armor fractures after just one shot of 7.62 and youtubers testing armor taped to water jugs are totally legit armor testers.
Try this on for size: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?32839-Level-III-Patrol-Armor-Test&s=02e2c83e1725a550f283de009f3eb71e
>>30370291
Or they could, you know, die from exhaustion from carrying 50 lbs of armor alone on just their torsos. Maybe if you weren't such a fucking conspiracy theorist and if you actually talked to the experts involved (many of whom, like Doc. Roberts, have no financial stake in the matter) then you might understand that it's not all a fucking MIC conspiracy to keep the corpses coming back from the sandbox.
>>342373505
Because militaries don't buy the best product on the market. They buy from the guys that give the best bribes and/or greatest deals. Politicians should not have any say in it, but they do.
Military failed it because to replace all the Kevlar they already have would he extremely expensive.
They did the math, soldiers lives aren't worth it apparently.
>>30370360
>citation needed
>implying anything about Dragon Skin was going to replace regular ass KM2 Kevlar
why do know-nothing bitches always want to chime in with their useless $0.02?
>>30370271
Eh the plate is perfectly fine. The coating is rather ruptured but the plate is perfectly fine.
>>30370340
"Die from exhaustion"... go fuck yourself. 20 more pounds than the interceptor for superior coverage is a price I would pay ANY day. I guarantee you those plates you sent me were damaged after the shooting. Too bad you didn't supply me with images to prove it.
And who's a conspiracy "theorist"? There's no theory here; I'm asking questions with no clear answers. Why was a superior and innovative product banned and it's train of thought not followed?
Let's be generous and grant them that the epoxy holding the disks together failed, which I'm not willing to do because other tests tell a completely different story... why not continue to build on the idea of the disks themselves and bind them together some other way? You can SEE for yourself the stuff working far better than ANY PLATE OUT THERE.
True loyalty to the military and the people of the United States DEMANDS that a harder look be taken at this, and a refusal to just OBEY. Who do soldiers serve now? The constitution and the people or the multinationals?
>>30370271
Did you even watch the video you linked? The plate was fine, it was the spall liner that got fucked up
The idea is stupid anyway. The disks support each other? So what? You know what else far more supportive, with all the strength and power of atomic bonding? A big solid plate.
>>30370200
When did you start working for Pinnacle Armor?
>>30370477
There is structural damage, the plate is being weakened. It does not take NEARLY the same punishment as the dragon skin, because again, it's ABSORBING the impact of the projectile, not shattering it on impact. You can't even compare the two.
>>30370489
Pinnacle is gone. Murray Neal works for the "North American Defense Group" in Missoula, Montana now, but his public website and affiliate websites have had a DNS error when you try to access them since February.
>>30370352
My thoughts exact. But what does that imply about our military and their priorities?
>>30370446
>being this salty
Guess what, 50 lbs of armor alone on your torso will severely fuck you up. That's like doing every single tactical action with a ruck on, whether that be kicking a door, climbing in a window, or vaulting a compound wall. People would get seriously hurt doing that shit, especially + battle load. There is a reason why the trend in SOF is towards sub 5lbs multi hit plates.
>I guarantee you those plates you sent me were damaged after the shooting. Too bad you didn't supply me with images to prove it.
Of course they were damaged, just like Dragon Skin armor vests can have individual damaged disks. To argue otherwise would be ignorant. Also that testing was conducted by Dr. Gary Roberts (DocGKR), the same one you cite in your OP. So if you think he's bullshitting then that's quite inconsistent of you.
>Let's be generous and grant them that the epoxy holding the disks together failed, which I'm not willing to do because other tests tell a completely different story...
Hint: some armor testing doesn't invalidate other armor testing. The exact same armor packages used for BALCS was copied by the Marine Corps to use in FSBE. Guess what, the guy in charge of the program (who later went to Eagle Ind., then First Spear) shat bricks when MARSYSCOM called and told him the armor package had a fucking shoot-through.
>You can SEE for yourself the stuff working far better than ANY PLATE OUT THERE.
Guess what, you can't see the best plates on youtube because nobody is doing youtube video tests of the best plates out there, they're doing internal tests which are not released to the public, or they send them to HP White Labs where they do tests which are not released to the public. So the shit hot multi-hit super lightweight $1000 special threat plates SOF guys are getting are not being posted on the internet for you to see.
>[autism]
all the guys who are real (not youtube) armor experts don't give a shit about drag skin and you shouldn't either
>>30370484
You're taking away one huge selling point of the dragon armor, mobility and flexibility. One sold plate doesn't offer that.
>>30370566
Well, depends on the size of the plate. A properly sized SAPI profile plate doesn't impinge on my movement at all. Of course I could get marginally more armor coverage with a flexible Dragon Skin type setup, but I personally wouldn't want the weight.
>>30370603
the dragon skin weighted in 2.9 kg (6.4 pounds). that's 2.4 pounds more then a medium sapi plate for almost double the coverage.
>>30370644
Which model? I admit I haven't kept up on the sizing for Dragon Skin vests.
>>30370666
The dragon skin extreme.
this was gathered from wiki since the main page is down.
>>30370496
>There is structural damage, the plate is being weakened
Not significant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpmwTUZaRnY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnm8IsU5M0c
>>30370549
>You're taking away one huge selling point of the dragon armor, mobility and flexibility. One sold plate doesn't offer that.
This.
>>30370846
This is true but since Dragon Skin is ded there's not much point in arguing about it.
>>30371099
The military buried it to protect the profits of it's preferred vendors. No integrity whatsoever.
>>30370200
Super hard and super flexible is a contradiction in terms
Even though the military denied it for any number of reasons, why didn't they start selling them on the civilian market? They would have sold well, I mean we're still talking about it to this day.
>>30371179
god just fuck off
i bet you think sicario was a documentary too
>>30370360
They did the math, soldiers lives aren't worth it apparently.
>Dumbasses who cant get jobs as anything but cannon fodder
>Lives worth anything but the bare minmum
>>30371191
I followed Dragon Skin on it's official website very closely. It was a few weeks away from unveiling "Dragon Skin 2" when the website was pulled in February and I haven't heard of the new model at all since then.
>>30370846
How much do you think the human torso really flexes? Theres a reason fullplate armour stayed around longer then maille
>>30371190
Not necessarily, because remember the individual scales are relatively rigid, but they are arranged in a mail-like formation so the armor package itself is FLEXIBLE and can adjust to the contours of the body; unlike a single solid plate which cannot.
>>30371258
that is what triple curve armor is for. There are only a few places on the body where the flexibility of the armor is a big deal and none of them are your upper torso (barring your limbs).
>>30371248
Part of the reason alot of the non-civilians here on /k/ detest body armor in general as much as they do is because they limit mobility... but the dragon skin is unique in this sense because it increases your ability to maneuver while in combat.
The twenty pounds of additional weight is a drawback but the Dragon Skin 2 scheduled to be released earlier this year may have addressed that. Why is it gone and all mention of it and it's creator erased?
>>30369977
That little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy.
>>30371289
My guess is they went out of business because vaporware and being unable to deliver on their promises.
Also the mobility meme is seriously overplayed. You have extremely good mobility with properly fitted SAPIs and side plates, to the point that I don't lose any range of motion in a plate carrier. The areas that limit your mobility are when you armor up the arms and legs and when you put armor on joints like around the shoulders, because those actually need to flex.
Could someone get lots of ar500 discs and recreate their own? It would be a neat project despite the obvious differences between the copy and a true version.
>>30371824
I expect the frag coming off the discs would tear the fuck out of whatever cordura was supposed to hold them in place, so after a few shots the discs would just be falling down in the carrier.
>>30370496
From a very basic to retard level understanding of physics, wouldn't shattering bullets = more force be directed toward the wearer?
>>30369934
Overlapping plates will always be less efficient than monolithic plates
Something that would actually be cool would be experimenting with perforated steel or aluminum plates sandwiched between heavy duty rubber
>>30372973
Soooo plates with holes in them?
>>30373285
Holes smaller than bullets, yes
>>30373338
So .15 inches. What will this accomplish?
>>30372907
No... my understanding of it is that because projectiles being fired @ the dragon skin are much lower on the mohs hardness scale, the bullets shatter on contact in the same way an ordinary rock might, or glass. The force is therefore never fully absorbed because the projectile fragments before the energy behind it's mass and velocity can be fully delivered.
A bullet on plate is different though... the plate and the bullet occupy roughly the same position on the mohs scale, therefore even if the bullet is resisted, the plate will continue to warp and deform until it's structural integrity is completely compromised.
It's a space-age material, it's flexible, it was passing all non-military tests with flying colors, and now it's just gone. It's a scandal.
>>30372973
That is essentially what the dragon skin is; ultra hard ceramic composite disks surrounded by thick padding for shock absorption.
>>30373526
>What will this accomplish?
Edges of holes distort the incoming projectile - for boolits this would warp and shear them, for hypersonic APFSDS projectiles it ideally fractures the penetrator by inducing rotation
Multiple individual impacts into the armor surface instead of just one impact followed by tunneling
Reduced weight
http://www.benteler-defense.com/english/benteler-defense/products/perforated-armor-steel-bsec-p/index.html
I'm not advocating for this other anon's idea, just pointing out what perforated armor is for.
Also, the "DU mesh" in US Abrams' uses a similar principle, only instead of a plate with thousands of tiny internal pockets it's a woven blanket of DU(not sure if alloyed) wires
>>30373658
Fuck off, it's literally the same silicon carbide ceramic materials that are in a shit ton of other plates. Nothing about Dragon Skin's material composition is new.
>>30373753
This paper made me interested in edge effects as a mechanism to defeat small arms fire
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282845592_Ballistic_behavior_of_perforated_armor_plates_against_762_mm_armor_piercing_projectile
Presumably you would want some sort of backing plate to catch the fragments that the perforated layers hopefully broke up
>>30372973
In WW1 US soldiers could have potentially have been deployed with full body hardended rubber armor that blocked all pistol ammo of the time and bayonet and knife resistant, but the Government thought it was a waste of mobey if it couldn't stop rifle bullets.
Dragon skin is out of date and it weighs 40 lbs for just the level 4 vest. I contacted the creator of it personally. Skallar was the gen 2 stuff. & Hexar 3
is 3rd gen which is self explanatory, Uses hexagonal sic3 pieces overlapping to create semi ap plates that are 4.5 lbs each. and more flexable then even the thinest kevlar vest inserts currently offered. The best part is they can be custom ordered in any shape and size.
So theoretically you could make an iron man or ODST suit out of it... If you can afford 500$ per 10x12 esapi panel and 600$ for full size. just the armor alone for that and 2 shoulder DAPS inserts along with 4 6x8's was going to be around 2000 usd... Don't bother buying it it required DOD credentials or LEO credentials...
I cannot advertise this company merely telling you what is out there as of 2014:"
lead times of 8 months during contract fulfillment are pretty common. I'll stick with my standalone level 4 ceramics until I have another platoon of benjamin's lined up and ready to go.
my level 4 ceramics are about the same weight but not even half the coverage or flexibility...
also hexar is rated up to around 40 rds of .308 or 50 rds of 5.56... money well spent
Of course then there's always heavy AR pleb steel for the masses which my 55 grain will zip right through with no problems ! :P
>>30372973
lol so passive reactive armour lol?
taking design ques from tanks lol.
>>30377181
Good design ques to go off of but weight and flexibility, Should always be measured before anything else.
>>30370091
Because only 1 out of every 10 dentists disagrees with a product their sponsored by. The odds were in their favor
>>30370166
Why waste your time and money retesting a failure? Do you try shitty food several times just because someone else tells you it's good and the first 3 batches you tasted were God awful? You stick to the food you know is good. It's your money and your time
>>30377293
Like any new product it takes time and quality control in this case perfecting the batches of armor panels to get the best result. Kind of like when the first android phones came out...
only difference is the face this will save lives in a literal sense :P
>>30376990
>>30377313
>:P
Kill yourself.
>>30370484
A big solid plate gets weaker with every hit, that's why homgenous tank armor is obsolete now.
>>30371232
>spend millions to train and deploy every single soldier
>don't bother preserving the assets that you just invested in because "lol they're dumbasses"
Man, what would we do without people like you.
>>30377280
>Good one. Underrated post. Go to sleep happy, you made a good joke today.
>>30377244
well flexibility is a good point but weight isn't. tanks are always in a constant battle of trying to make their armour better while not making it heavier. its why we have spaced armour, perforated armour, reactive armours, ceramic armour, hardened face plates, active armour and composite armour.
their all designed to provide more apparent armour for less weight.
>>30377313
kys
The fact of the matter is all the shit tier companies that spawned from the Dragon Skin debacle are dying while people who worked on material advancement are rolling in the SOCOM monies.
>>30376915
>>30376959
From reading the Hexar people's website (stealth armor systems) I'm not exactly getting a real sense of reassurance. They can't even fucking type correctly (kind of a big deal when you can't type the name of a round you claim to defeat correctly), and I'm not seeing which testing protocols they use to test their armor. As for stopping 40 rounds of .308 I'd like to see where they say that.
Personally if I had $2000 to blow on armor I would go for Velocity Systems BZ special threat plates. Multi hit with 7.62x51 M80, 7.62x39 MSC, 7.62x39 API-BZ, M193, M855, M855A1, and 5.45x39. Sub 4lbs for a medium SAPI plate.
