Chinese Navy has shown for the first time their new Type 093B improved Shang-class SSGN, equipped with a VLS system in the hump behind the new Virginia-class-like (but with hydroplanes equipped) conning tower, as well as new large flank-array sonar housings.
These are the first ever SSGNs in Chinese service, and would present a big threat to any rival navy surface combattant, including US carriers, due to their ability to launch long range supersonic anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-18 (Chinese Club/Kalibr/SS-N-27A Sizzler equivalent) at stand-off distance outside the range of most shipborne ASW weapons. Even ASW helos would have difficulties, as they would have to operate two hundred nautical miles away from their home-plate to even be able to react to a submerged stand-off launch of AShMs from those SSGN
>>30357304
As previous satellite pictures have spotted; the PLAN would have at least 3 of these new classes of nuclear guided missile attack submarines, with a maximum possibility of five in total, in service by now.
Well this is going to be a dogshit thread.
>>30357314
2nd point; the Y-20 heavy transport aircraft is finally entering mass-production and acheived IOC in the PLAAF.
This makes the Y-20 the largest military plane in production right now (as the C-17 isnt being produced, and the IL-76/A-400M/C-2 are all of a smaller and lighter class)
http://www.popsci.com/worlds-largest-military-plane-in-production-is-chinas-y-20
>>30357304
>bow tubes
Jesus. I thought the'd have moved on to semispherical sonar arrays by now. The Russians finally got them into the Yasen and Borei, after all.
>>30357372
>>30357412
3rd item:
Chinese Navy participating in the RIMPAC with the 3rd largest fleet after the US and Canada.
A-class assets were sent, including a Type 052C and a Type 054A.
>>30357431
And a replenishment tanker as well.
>>30357304
>would present a big threat to any rival navy surface combattant, including US carriers, due to their ability to launch long range supersonic anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-18 (Chinese Club/Kalibr/SS-N-27A Sizzler equivalent) at stand-off distance outside the range of most shipborne ASW weapons. Even ASW helos would have difficulties, as they would have to operate two hundred nautical miles away from their home-plate to even be able to react to a submerged stand-off launch of AShMs from those SSGN
You have to factor in the full kill tree. For a sub to launch at that range, it would need datalinked targeting data from remote platforms to hope to achieve any kind of effective pK. This is the true current weakness in Chinese planning around AShM and AShBM strategy, just as it was a huge hurdle for Russians planning Backfire regiment raids with Kh-22s in the 1980's.
If China wants to really get serious about area denial tailored against CSGs and ESGs, they need to find a way to get real time targeting grade data all the way up the kill chain. Hint: satellites won't cut it.
>>30357437
4th item;
The Type 055 heavy destroyer/cruiser is pretty much confirmed to be under construction in Shanghai.
This image shows the hull-module of the cruiser, compared to the large 12,000ton coast guard cutter that was also constructed at the same berth.
The white building in the foreground is the same.
As one can see, even though the 12,000 ton cutter's hull, which is already larger than an Arleigh Burke destroyer, is being towered upon by the mere still incomplete hull-section of the Type 055.
When this warship is in service by 2018, it will still remain the largest surface combattant in asia. And even when compared to the US DDG-1000, it will be better armed due to its large caliber 128 VLS cells.
>>30357323
Impressive
Prepared post trains show true creativity and will convince the denizens of this Anatolian peach farming board of China's glory.
>>30357450
They could easily be working on stealth UAV's or have them already
US needs to fix their procurement structure and spread out deployment of assets before chinese achieve parity
>>30357450
Satellites do cut it.
China has ocean surveillance satellites with enough resolution to follow oil tankers in the water (smaller than an CVN), and that at both LEO and most importantly, GSO, which means they arent reliant on satellite passes.
Also, China is developing increasingly large and sophisticated UAVs. Like their Divine Eagle, that gigantic 42 meters wingspan monster that would have long range VHF AESA for both sea and air surveillance.
>>30357564
These threads should be considered spam. They are literally just copy-pasted reposts that never say anything different or new.
>>30357372
Oh shit, shit engines.
SSGNs with supersonics are really a huge-bang-for-the-buck weapon system. No wonder Russia is modernizing their Oscar-classes as well.
No matter how loud your sub is and how it would be killed in a direct contest with a Virginia/Seawolf hunter-killer - all you need to do is to be somewhat silent enough to get close enough to the carrier group, so that your 600-800km ranged supersonics can engage. Even if your attack fails, you just dash out and disengage to rearm and resupply. Noone is going to hunt a submerged submarine down at that standoff range. And if, someone attempts it, they would put their own ASW assets in danger as well. Even attack subs who are sent out to hunt these SSGNs would need to infiltrate your ASW bastions and sonar networks as well.
This tactic literally needs the lowest amount of technologies in quieting and propulsion fields to be insanely successful.
>>30357599
Sorry to hurt your feelings.
But I have to tell you that China indeed grows larger.
>>30357599
Impressive
Spreading the truth makes unbelievers butthurt about China's progress. Only through copy pasta will the world know of China's glory.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-07/china-pushes-plan-for-oceanic-space-station-in-south-china-sea
>China is speeding up efforts to design and build a manned deep-sea platform to help it hunt for minerals in the South China Sea, one that may also serve a military purpose in the disputed waters.
>Such an oceanic “space station” would be located as much as 3,000 meters (9,800 feet) below the surface, according to a recent Science Ministry presentation viewed by Bloomberg. The project was mentioned in China’s current five-year economic plan released in March and ranked number two on a list of the top 100 science and technology priorities.
Authorities recently examined the implementation of the project and decided to accelerate the process, according to the presentation.
>"Having this kind of long-term inhabited station has not been attempted this deep, but it is certainly possible," said Bryan Clark, a senior fellow at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. "Manned submersibles have gone to those depths for almost 50 years. The challenge is operating it for months at a time."
The Abyss Soon
>>30357381
This is just the latest upgrade of the Shang-class, which is a 90s era design. This newest one is kinda China's equivalent to the improved Akula-class. Not a clean-sheet design by all means.
But the technologies tested on those boats would be the stepping stone for the next generation of attack subs that they are developing.
>>30357564
>Satellites do cut it.
For real time target track resolution? Fuck no.
>oil tankers in the water (smaller than an CVN)
Depends on the tanker. Most supertankers are in fact larger than Nimitz class carriers. TI class supertankers are five times the displacement of a Nimitz.
>GSO
There are no workable RORSATs at GSO. None. Hard limits in basic physics (start at the inverse square law and go from there) dictate that a RORSAT be in LEO, and at the low end of LEO at that.
>Also, China is developing increasingly large and sophisticated UAVs. Like their Divine Eagle, that gigantic 42 meters wingspan monster that would have long range VHF AESA for both sea and air surveillance.
All well and good. How are their VLO features? LPI comms? RCS, as in detection threshold against not only E-2Ds but also Spy radars in Aegis systems? At 50,000ft AGL, those things pop over the radar horizon for a surface search radar at 287nmi.
http://www.top500.org/news/china-tops-supercomputer-rankings-with-new-93-petaflop-machine/
>China Tops Supercomputer Rankings with New 93-Petaflop Machine
>A new Chinese supercomputer, the Sunway TaihuLight, captured the number one spot on the latest TOP500 list of supercomputers released on Monday morning at the International Supercomputing Conference (ISC) being held in Frankfurt, Germany. With a Linpack mark of 93 petaflops, the system outperforms the former TOP500 champ, Tianhe-2, by a factor of three. The machine is powered by a new ShenWei processor and custom interconnect, both of which were developed locally, ending any remaining speculation that China would have to rely on Western technology to compete effectively in the upper echelons of supercomputing.
New, lightweight miniaturized thermonuclear warheads for China's nuclear expansion soon
And this time, even with Chinese CPUs, ending their reliance on Intel and other western imported chips.
Another potential western embargo defeated.
China grows stronger.
>>30357622
>insanely successful.
Blind launch at 600km with no direct targeting data on a CSG and no terminal datalinked guidance may as well be throwing darts blindfolded at 200ft. The pK on those weapons would be well below 1%.
>>30357701
>But the technologies tested on those boats would be the stepping stone for the next generation of attack subs that they are developing.
Well and good. It's just shocking to see them still using technologies the USN abandoned after the Tullibee was launched in 1960.
>>30357665
Yeah, theyre gonna kill a lot of people just to make a MIR-tier bunkroom.
China pls stop
>>30357803
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef4_1461508939
>Live satellite video - tracking airliner from space
>Service demonstration of the Chinese Jilin-1 commercial observation satellite.
GF-4 GSO observation satellite:
http://www.popsci.com/gaofen-4-worlds-most-powerful-geo-spy-satellite-continues-chinas-great-leap-forward-into-space
50m resolution
>>30357825
The US do not seem to have qualms about throwing multi-million dollar darts 900km away at defended warships with their LRASM.
>inb4 America has drones, planes and satellites
Russia, China has those as well.
>>30357890
>http://www.popsci.com/gaofen-4-worlds-most-powerful-geo-spy-satellite-continues-chinas-great-leap-forward-into-space
>good enough to track aircraft carriers in near real time from space.
>near real time
>It has a color image resolution of slightly less than 50 meters (which is enough to track aircraft carriers by their wake at sea)
>thermal imaging resolution of 400m
>It may also have a lower resolution video streaming capacity.
It can find wakes on a cloudless day with still photos. It can't track a CSG with that thermal resolution, so no night time or cloud cover tracking. And the streaming resolution is lower than the 50m optical resolution you imply. Even if it weren't, it's nowhere near enough for real time terminal tracking.
Did you bother to learn anything about this subject before pretending to be an internet expert?
>>30357819
Impressive
China does everything bigger and better all the time. Any doubts are easily quelled with unrelated articles of China's greatness.
>>30357911
>900km away at defended warships with their LRASM
Except that the US has VLO carrier-launched tactical aircraft, two-way datalinked sensor/control bandwidth in the LRASM, plus the various other sensor nodes in VLO drones etc. To anyone read in at any level on this particular naval warfare problem, it is blindingly obvious that the USN/USAF still hold very significant advantages as aggressors in equal scenarios (even though no real world scenario would be equal at this point in resources).
>>30357947
Supercomputers are military related.
Due to the global nuclear weapons test ban, you literally could only develop new weapons via simulation. And China's currently in the process of abandoning their minimum deterrence posture to prepare for a Hilary Clinton administration.
They need those supercomputers. The fastest ones possible, and preferably with Chinese chips that would prevent US tech embargo.
>>30357971
two-way datalink was available to Chinese and Russian cruise missiles for at least a decade. And the means to control AShM swarms outside shore/ship based sensor range was alrady pioneered with the Shipwreck AShMs of the 80's, which all had a pretty sophisticated AI that enables them to share targeting data and course correction between each other. This isnt something new.
You cannot just make up reasons why enemies of the US are subjects to bogus 'natural laws' that the US wonderweapons are not subject of.
The same problems and same solutions apply to everyone.
>>30357972
>conversation about naval tech
>supercomputer nuclear weapons sims
>related
>>30358012
>AI
Why would you make a missile sapient?
>>30357564
yeah, once you've found them.
>>30358012
>And the means to control AShM swarms outside shore/ship based sensor range was alrady pioneered with the Shipwreck AShMs of the 80's, which all had a pretty sophisticated AI that enables them to share targeting data and course correction between each other.
Single dolphining course correction as a means of reducing swarm exposure to countermeasures by staying under radar horizon is not the "sophisticated AI" breakthrough you imply.
>This isnt something new.
Perhaps not in principle. But show me a single other AShM with the level of sophistication and VLO properties in RCS, IR reduction and LPI comms/sensors that LRASM represents. Don't worry, I'll wait.
>You cannot just make up reasons why enemies of the US are subjects to bogus 'natural laws' that the US wonderweapons are not subject of.
And you can't pretend that every Russian AShM missile ever made has been some sort of self-targeting sophisticated AI, when they had only basic swarm-based pathfinding ability.
>The same problems and same solutions apply to everyone.
Yeah, but not everyone is at the same point in the pursuit of said solutions. Also, I'm not the one in this thread claiming there are fucking RORSATs in GSO. That's beyond retarded.
>>30357819
>And this time, even with Chinese CPUs, ending their reliance on Intel and other western imported chips.
>Another potential western embargo defeated.
This shit's importance cannot be stressed enough.
China spends more money importing chips than crude oil and energy. Think about this for a moment.
With their own high performance chips in production, China would prevent a huge strategic vulnerability to their war-industry during times of crisis. For a 21st century military, computer chips are just as important as energy and food.
Now, if China solves their high performance engine problems, they would achieve another strategic milestone.
>>30358047
>The missile, when fired in a swarm (group of 4–8) has a unique guidance mode. One of the weapons climbs to a higher altitude and designates targets while the others attack. The missile responsible for target designation climbs in short pop-ups, so as to be harder to intercept. The missiles are linked by data connections, forming a network. If the designating missile is destroyed the next missile will rise to assume its purpose. Missiles are able to differentiate targets, detect groups and prioritize targets automatically using information gathered during flight and types of ships and battle formations pre-programmed in an onboard computer. They will attack targets in order of priority, highest to lowest: after destroying the first target, any remaining missiles will attack the next prioritized target.[6][7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-700_Granit
It is also equipped with self-defense ECM. And that in the 1983.
>>30358012
>sophisticated AI
ha.
>>30358093
>With their own high performance chips in production,
The key phrase here is "in production". The US still maintains a very significant edge in the production of highest-grade miniaturized electronic components. Which countries in the world currently house the only four extant top of the line IC foundries? The US, South Korea and Taiwan. That's it.
>>30358091
>But show me a single other AShM with the level of sophistication and VLO properties in RCS, IR reduction and LPI comms/sensors that LRASM represents. Don't worry, I'll wait
Russia's Kh-101/102 have these, in addition to a 10,000km range.
>inb4 it's an ALCM
it has active radar and ImIR terminal seeker. If anything, it is like the TACTOM, also capable of hitting moving ground and sea-targets.
As for China, they have theirs in work as well. But of course, their military transparency is basically non-existing, hence we will see it when we see it. But the YJ-18B is such a missile, according to leaks. Basically a stealthed Club with Mach 3 terminal dash.
>>30358147
And just 20 years before, China produced less steel than Belgium.
Now, they are the Saudi Arabia of Steel, producing more than half of the world combined.
When there is investment and the technology, China will catch up and even overtake the others.
And it is not that China needs to be world-leader in chip-production during an US embargo against them. All they need is to have enough for their defense needs.
>>30358174
>10,000km range
what the fuck nigger
>>30358112
>no wants or needs
>can't feel emotions
>can't love
>sapient
>>30358174
>10,000km range.
and I'm out. Fucking putin-bot trolls.
>>30358199
Steel production is not top-end IC production. That's like saying "hey, they have the industrial base to build steam engines. Clearly, they can also build nuclear propulsion systems for submarines in short order!"
One does not follow the other and in fact has very little to do with each other.
>>30357843
The US is actually moving away from spherical arrays now. The newer arrangement is cheaper, safer (there's no sonar access tunnel), requires less maintenance over its lifespan and eliminates the hydrophones at the back of the sphere that are largely worthless.
>>30358342
I'm aware of the new LABs. You're not about to try and tell me the Chinese are using water-backed sonar are you?
>>30358379
Not at all, I just think it's funny how Russia is just now switching to a technology the US is now abandoning and china is actually two steps behind.
>>30358437
Funny and a little sad. But don't forget: according to OP we're all fucked sideways with a cactus. That's the worst part, that there might actually be military minds in Russia or China who are snowed by their own propoganda and possessing of the power to kick off something stupid.
>>30357665
>as much as 3,000 meters (9,800 feet) below the surface
top kek
>>30358475
holy fucking kek that pic. and I usually hate those fucking things.
>>30358091
>But show me a single other AShM with the level of sophistication and VLO properties in RCS, IR reduction and LPI comms/sensors that LRASM represents. Don't worry, I'll wait
Way to move the goalpost bro.
The only thing you need to accurately find and hit a moving target at extended ranges are two-way datalinks, satcom and any sort of terminal seeker, be it active radar, passive radar or ImIR.
You dont need VLO or LPI to find your target ship. They might help to penetrate the defenses, but you dont need those to get there.
Russians and Chinese produced long range anti-ship missiles since the 60s and 70s. They know full well of the difficulties in targeting an enemy ship with their long range missiles, which is why both of them have produced multiple means to support their A2AD strategies, be it OTH radars, MPAs with long range radars, satellites etc.
But the missile themselves have two-way datalink, terminal seekers, and the modern ones have satcom and even VLO.
Hell, the US is actually quite behind in this field, having used the crappy Harpoon for 40+ years already. Now they come around pretending to be the kings of long range anti ship missiles, just because they finally caught up with the East in that field.
>>30358437
There's nothing wrong with that sort of sonar layout. Even the very capable and ultra-modern Japanese Soryu-class AIP SSK uses a sonar loadout not dissimiliar with what China uses. The torpedo tubes are also mounted over the sonar-dome.
>>30358583
>>30358475
You laugh, but the science nerd inside me is squeeing like like a schoolgirl at the thought of anyone even just trying such a thing.
Though, I'm calling bullshit at it serving any military function. 3000 meters is way, way deeper than any ccurrent military sub can go. Like, even the old Alfas with their stronk soviet titanium hulls had a crush depth of not even half of that. I guess they could make it a sonar listening station, but there's no real advantage over putting one in shallower waters for a lot less effort involved.
>>30358012
>Shipwreck AShMs of the 80's, which all had a pretty sophisticated AI
>AI
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
>>30357372
Low bypass turbofans on a cargo plane? The chinese are fucking stupid.
China claims it will have a payload of 66 tons, with engines it hasn't even made for it, with those pieces of shit, what is it at now? 30 tons?
>>30358542
>But the missile themselves have two-way datalink
There is no proof the Granit missile has TWO way datalink. Only ONE way datalink aka Satellite/Ship to missile course correction.
>>30358723
When I mean two way datalink, I mean the missile sending a message back to the ship/satellite.
>>30358715
Still the Russian imported and licence produced D-30.
But the high-bypass alternative, the WS-20, is progressing fast.
>>30358751
Yeah the D-30 is absolute garbage, and until the Chinese can actually produce a high bypass turbofan that competitive with engines developed in the 1970s by the west, their cargo planes will continue to be absolute garbage.
Shit range.
Shit payload.
Shit performance.
That's the status of the Y-20 right now, and for the foreseeable future.
>>30358542
>Way to move the goalpost bro.
You claimed here >>30358012 that Russian weapons were more advanced while giving BS examples. You said >>30358012
>The same problems and same solutions apply to everyone.
as if the playing field were completely level. It's completely bullshit logic. If the playing field were level, you'd be able to produce a single example.
>The only thing you need to accurately find and hit a moving target at extended ranges are two-way datalinks, satcom and any sort of terminal seeker, be it active radar, passive radar or ImIR.
You have to have your target group localized first, which means a real time sensor node well within the CSG's range of shooting back. Also, you might want to read about a little thing called EW countermeasures, then look at how radar decoys work.
>You dont need VLO or LPI to find your target ship.
No, but you sure as fuck need them in today's environment for a decent pK. Pretending you don't need them because you don't have them is sour grapes-tier bullshit.
>which is why both of them have produced multiple means to support their A2AD strategies, be it OTH radars, MPAs with long range radars, satellites etc.
Not fucking ONE of these is sufficient for a real time launch-grade target track. Every fucking one of those is meant to bird dog for close in recon assets. Seriously, at least read the basics before you pretend to be an internet expert.
>terminal seeker
what, like every guided AShM in the world since forever? congrats.
>modern ones have satcom
Are you trying to reference GPS? As a terminal targeting system against moving fucking targets?
>even VLO.
I'd love to see a Russian or Chinese AShM with significant VLO features. Don't worry, I'll wait.
>Hell, the US is actually quite behind in this field, having used the crappy Harpoon for 40+ years already.
What is SLAM-ER et al.? Also, the US has more stockpiled standoff precision guided munitions than the next five largest militaries on the planet combined.
>>30358769
It is already superior to any other similiar class cargo plane except the C-17.
66ton payload vs 56ton of the IL-76, its immediate competitor.
4,500 km with max payload ; 7800 km with 40 tons ; 10,000+ km with paratroops.
These are all good stats for a plane that is powered by D30s.
>>30358823
The 66 ton number is based on a theoretical engine that isn't even in production.
The Y-20s real numbers with the D-30s are probably horrifically bad.
>>30358784
>What is SLAM-ER et al.?
kek
120nmi range and cruise altitude of 100m isnt "long range", nor "threatening".
Give it up, bro.
You lost.
Get back reading Tom Clancy.
>>30358745
And what message? LRASM sends its full sensor take. Are you claiming the Granit does that? Really?
>>30358837
Even if, it wouldnt be worse than the IL-76's 56 tons, as it is largely similiar sized and made out of more lightweight composites compared to the old soviet era IL-76.
But nice try. Too bad that simple logic is defeating you.
>>30358851
so, you say the LRASM is nothing but a overglorified TV-guided man-in-the-loop missile?
Because that's what the Kh-59 could do during the 80s.
>>30358870
Not to mention the obvious risks of uploading/streaming video/radar data to some off-board receiver when the LRASM is suppossed to 'infiltrate' 900km into the enemy airspace.
All those delicious new Chinese ELINT aircrafts arent flying around for jokes.
>>30357431
>>30357437
Did they send a fucking ELINT spy ship along this time as well?
>>30358870
None of Russia's supersonic cruise missiles have two-way datalink. It's disingenuous. End of story
>>30358870
Oh, look, a strawman. I think we've just about hit logical fallacy bingo.
Here, educate yourself. This should be at about your level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNhw-aORdQ
For reference, automatic threat response and least-threat pathfinding using the distributed AShM swarm passive sensors WITHOUT manned input is as far from the Kh-59's capabilities as a fucking manned space mission in a VW beatle.
>>30358944
Dongdiao-class ELINT ships are always on standby around Hawaii.
>>30358915
>All those delicious new Chinese ELINT aircrafts arent flying around for jokes.
Don't mind us. We'll just be over here fitting high bandwidth direction LPI comms on all our new AShMs. Seriously, fucking read a book already.
>>30358967
>direction
directional
>>30357564
>China has ocean surveillance satellites with enough resolution to follow oil tankers in the water (smaller than an CVN), and that at both LEO and most importantly, GSO, which means they arent reliant on satellite passes.
The "persistent stare" satellites don't have the resolution to reliably identify warships from commercial ships. They give you contacts to investigate.
Low earth orbit optical satellites DO give you that information, but those are vulnerable to anti-satellite weapons.
Both these systems are highly vulnerable to "soft-kill" techniques, such as uplink jamming. That's an area of military technology that America has a decided advantage in.
>>30358953
>posts LM shill advertizing that is hilariously bad and wishful thinking
Now you want to tell me that the F-35 works as advertized as well? Kek.
Opinion discarded.
In a world of VHF early warning networks and passive radars, the LRASM wouldnt even know whether he is being watched or not. Needless to say, the trained american monkey who is piloting the LRASM wouldnt know which path is "less threatening" and would fly straight into the engagement envelope of a fucking old S-300F.
>>30358967
>LPI comms
Kek.
LPI is only LPI for the ELINT assets you last encountered.
But useless against the newest ultra-sensitive ELINT systems onboard the newest Chinese and Russian intelligence aircrafts and ships.
Also
>uploading gigabyte sized video stream in real time to satellite
>wanting to have LPI
KEK
>>30358999
>Now you want to tell me that the F-35 works as advertized as well? Kek.
Oh, is this now a discussion about truth in advertising? Pic so much more related it isn't even funny.
>>30358999
>In a world of VHF early warning networks and passive radars
What is this inverse square law in conjunction with VLO technology? Are you so stupid that you don't realize that radar detection arrays will ALWAYS see emitters before their returns see the target? This is basic fucking physics. C'mon.
Also, passive distributed radar networks? IN THE FUCKING OCEAN? And this is assuming they even work as advertised.
>>30359030
>LPI is only LPI for the ELINT assets you last encountered.
Are you retarded? Are you completely unaware of narrow-beam directional comms? Why are you even in this conversation?
>uploading gigabyte sized video stream in real time to satellite
>wanting to have LPI
Holy shit. He really is unaware of directional comms arrays. What a fucking potato.
>>30357599
>These threads should be considered spam. They are literally just copy-pasted reposts that never say anything different or new.
Actually that whole satellite thing has been bugging me. The DF-21 is a dangerous weapon, but only if you let the entire kill chain survive unimpeded. If you allow Chinese LEO recon sats to stay in orbit, they will find and identify your task force sooner or later, and when they do you'll have ballistic missiles whistling down on you. As a dedicated interceptor the SM-3 is pretty damn good, but the missiles are horrifically expensive and are competing with Standard missiles (needed for air defense against conventional threats) in the VLS cells. The USN can't take the DF-21 on in an old-fashioned slugfest with any confidence of winning the attrition battle. (Yes, the SM-2 and SM-6 have ABM upgrades now but neither of them have warheads very good at killing ballistic missiles; you really need a hit-to-kill kinetic warhead for that job.)
Problem is, shooting down satellites is risky as it's easy for everyone to do, and the Chinese will have a lot to gain from picking off our own satellites pretty fast. A lot of the Important Shit (such as MILSTAR communication satellites) are in high geosynch orbit, quite safe from anything but a dedicated killsat mission, but the recon assets in LEO are worth untold gazillionty dollars to the US, so escalating to satellite war would be very painful.
So in the event of a major clash, is the USN more likely to 1. employ soft-kill techniques against those satellites, 2. pre-emptively wipe out the DF-21s (they can only fire from the roads themselves or prepared concrete pads, lel) or 3. shoot down the satellites? #3 is escalatory, #1 we just don't have any good info on that's public knowledge (for good damn reason) and #2 requires penetrating the Chinese coastal IADS which isn't easy even with the latest weapons.
>>30358999
>In a world of VHF early warning networks and passive radars, the LRASM wouldnt even know whether he is being watched or not. Needless to say, the trained american monkey who is piloting the LRASM wouldnt know which path is "less threatening" and would fly straight into the engagement envelope of a fucking old S-300F.
So, you aren't aware that radar emissions are detected from over the radar horizon and beyond the return detection threshold. Because high school physics. That's cute.
>>30357819
>>30358093
You guys are fucking retarded. For starters, the chips are just stolen western tech like everything else they've got, and secondly, this is nothing we couldn't have done in the West, if we wanted to. Nobody felt like ponying up; the demands for that processor power weren't there. It's just the brute-force approach; "just make it bigger and add more chips." There's no real innovation here, and it was done mainly for the dick-waving cred of M-MUH COMPUTER IS B-B-IGGER! This is the tsar bomba writ small.
>>30359083
>DF-21s (they can only fire from the roads themselves or prepared concrete pads, lel)
The entire DF-21 series, aside of the A-variant, are actually capable of launching from anywhere.
The DF-26 even more so.
China specifically made open excercises showing off that capability, so that the US might see that it is fruitless in staring down their pre-surveyed launch sites. Because, if anything, their DF-21Ds are first hidden inside their tunnels of the underground great wall, and second, capable of launching from even rice patties in the South West.
>>30358174
>10,000km
KAK
>>30359083
>Actually that whole satellite thing has been bugging me. The DF-21 is a dangerous weapon, but only if you let the entire kill chain survive unimpeded. If you allow Chinese LEO recon sats to stay in orbit, they will find and identify your task force sooner or later, and when they do you'll have ballistic missiles whistling down on you. As a dedicated interceptor the SM-3 is pretty damn good, but the missiles are horrifically expensive and are competing with Standard missiles (needed for air defense against conventional threats) in the VLS cells. The USN can't take the DF-21 on in an old-fashioned slugfest with any confidence of winning the attrition battle. (Yes, the SM-2 and SM-6 have ABM upgrades now but neither of them have warheads very good at killing ballistic missiles; you really need a hit-to-kill kinetic warhead for that job.)
What you have to remember about the DF-21 is that it has very serious problems guiding itself and receiving remote terminal guidance through the plasma sheath. It's travelling so fast that ionized atmosphere is literally causing comms and sensor blackout. The Chinese claimed they've solved this issue, but getting direct hits with conventional ballistic missiles is already a huge fucking guidance problem. Doing it against a maneuvering target with several minutes between launch and terminal is even more ridiculous. Throw in EW countermeasures, and you're looking at pKs which are vanishingly small.
The reason the US does not field these is not because they can't. Keep that in mind.
>>30358342
... what the fuck are with those VLS style hatches right behind the sonar? The hell are those?
>>30359103
You're missing the point. There are literally only four facilities on the planet that can manufacture these chips, and they're all far more sophisticated, with far tighter tolerances than the facilities for building delicate space vehicles.
>>30359142
Tomahawks for land attack
>>30359103
> "just make it bigger and add more chips."
It is not.
Read the article.
Their new processor also tops the 500 in terms of being energy efficient, requiring less watt per gigaflop.
Also, the software architecture to fuse millions of cores and connect them with the memory is perhaps the biggest feat of it all. This is the reason why the West cannot do the same as China did, fusing 3 million cores to one system.
And no, the CPU isnt stolen from the West in any way. It is based on the Alpha architecture, which is long ago abolished in the West. But China seems to have independently developed it further and turning it into their own standard.
To claim that China stole it, is as if Chinese claim that Britbongistan's Aircraft Carrier is Chinese, because the 2000ton crane is made in China.
>>30358542
>Now they come around pretending to be the kings of long range anti ship missiles
Who needs 'em?
>>30359150
and, sooner or later, LRASMs for AShM work.
>>30359148
Oh, and none of them are in China.
>>30359096
>Detecting emmissions of VHF surveillance radars
>With the crappy "ELINT" (really just an RWR) system mounted on a missile
Cute.
You better go back to school.
And back to sleep, as you seem to have a pretty sweet dream right now.
>>30359148
>>30359178
>Oh, and none of them are in China.
Which is why China's new chips are completely BTFO the US/Japan/Taiwan ones in literally every aspect, even in terms of being "green", amirite?
I know it hurts. It hurts so bad to see the little asian kid you used to bully in school getting mad gains and completely fucking you up field after field.
That's the feeling the West will need to learn to survive the 21st century, which will be the White Man's Century of Humiliation.
>>30358784
>Not fucking ONE of these is sufficient for a real time launch-grade target track. Every fucking one of those is meant to bird dog for close in recon assets. Seriously, at least read the basics before you pretend to be an internet expert.
Yeah, he nailed it on the head here. Of all those options the MPAs will give you the best fix - they'll pinpoint the ships very well with long-range surface-search radars, even - but then you've got to figure out if they're your target, or just another tanker or freighter going this way or that. Even if IS an enemy ship you might unload on it only to discover that you shot your wad at a bunch of minesweepers with radar reflectors on 'em. Unless they obligingly turn their radars on to let you classify them via SIGINT, you'll need a long-range visual to confirm their identity. And that's hard to do without a Hornet ramming an AMRAAM up your ass.
>>30358844
>120nmi range and cruise altitude of 100m isnt "long range"
... do you know what an airplane is?
>>30359030
>the newest ultra-sensitive ELINT systems onboard the newest Chinese and Russian intelligence aircrafts
Yeah, naw brah, they're not going to be intercepting directional microwave comms beamed up to MILSTAR satellites.
>>30359152
>Cray Titan: 37,376 processors
>Sunway TaihuLight: 10,649,600 processors
So, yeah. That's pretty much exactly what they did. For only 3 times the performance, they needed 285 times as many processors.
>>30359223
Airplanes are even easier targets than missiles. More so, if they have to get so close to their target to launch their missiles.
See, this is why China and Russia gets away with using crappy ancient carrier vehicles to launch their missiles. Their missiles just have that stand-off range to do that.
>>30359208
>Which is why China's new chips are completely BTFO the US/Japan/Taiwan ones in literally every aspect, even in terms of being "green", amirite?
Why did they need 285 times as many processors to achieve only 3 times the results if they're so much better?
>>30359250
And still, per processor, they use less energy for the same computational power.
Again, writing the software for these million cores is the major feat.
Without that, you only have a very expensive heater.
>>30358999
>passive radars,
Ah yes, the latest vatnik meme. "We'll counter your now-flying F-35 with these magical x-ray radars that haven't even had the theoretical problems worked out yet, much less the practical engineering ones!" Yeah call us back in 20 years Vatnik, maybe you'll have that shit close to prime time by then!
>>30359282
>And still, per processor, they use less energy for the same computational power.
Then please tell me why they didn't get 285 times the performance with 285 times the processors. Instead of 3 times the performance.
Please. Tell me what I'm missing here. Because it looks like they're about 1/75th as efficient.
>>30359265
Why cant America catch up with China for, like 5 years? Tianhe-2 is old story already with 33 petaflops, and you still cant beat it in the year of the lord 2016.
Supercomputer race will become like ping pong - a sport where Chinese are competing against other Chinese, while the Western "Pros" cant even win against a village junior-league level player from China.
>>30359311
3 times the performance of the next best Supercomputer, you mean...
Which is Chinese again.
BTFO
>>30357638
>truth
That China still has a vulnerable kill chain?
>>30359114
>Because, if anything, their DF-21Ds are first hidden inside their tunnels of the underground great wall
That opens up some interesting possibilities vis a vis tracking and targeting, actually. But tracking/targeting was never the issue (god knows we've got enough recon assets for that, in optical satellites alone;) rather it's getting a cruise missile through the IADS without being intercepted. The Tomahawk, IMHO, isn't up to it currently. A next-gen one with DECM systems might. >>30359139
>The reason the US does not field these is not because they can't. Keep that in mind.
That is an extremely good point. We suffered the exact same problems vis a vis targeting/datalinking through the plasma sheath when developing the Sprint system.
>>30357819
Can it run crisis?
>>30359313
>Tianhe-2
Uses Intel tech. Why would usa try to beat itself?
>>30359313
>"ahead" in supercomputers for 4 years
>out of the last 54 years
congrats. Too bad you still have to import all your commercial processors.
>>30359325
Actually, I was comparing it to the Titan in numbers of processors. So that was off. They needed 285 times the processors to achieve 5 times the performance. That really doesn't look that much better, but whatever.
I notice you still don't explain how these chinese wonderprocessors could possibly be better.
>>30359150
>Tomahawks for land attack
... huh. Last I saw their VLSes (in the stern, at least) were single-tube ones; one missile to a tube. That "canister" setup with multiple missiles in one launch tube is akin to the modification made to the Ohio class to make them cruise missile subs.
... if you took that canister out, could you fit an SRBM into there?
>>30359152
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/worlds-first-1000-processor-chip
Yeah, sure, there's no way we can possibly match that amazing achievement of theirs, mmhmm. I browse /. too nerd
>>30359246
>Yeah, naw brah, they're not going to be intercepting directional microwave comms beamed up to MILSTAR satellites.
Hahaha
You actually believe this shit?
"Pencil Beams" are a meme constructed by Vatniks to describe the unjammable S-300 radars. But again, enough white noise will solve/jam everything. And who tells you that it isnt a Chinese satellite just a few km away from that MILSTAR? Or that the enemy isnt going to jam the fuck out of all SATCOM signals in the area?
BS of the highest order.
Not to mention that a small missile wont even have enough power to do anything in an contested electromagnetic environment.
Next you want to tell me that every MALD-J can jam an S-400 radar on its own, right? HAHAHA
Americans are almost as bad and desperate as those Vatniks you always cry about.
>>30359182
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Ocean_Surveillance_System
bro
>>30359208
>the White Man's Century of Humiliation.
Honestly cannot tell if trolling
>>30357304
Da Fuq? why don't they learn to load like a real Navy? Loading thru tube is a flooding waiting to happen!
>>30359370
>... huh. Last I saw their VLSes (in the stern, at least) were single-tube ones; one missile to a tube. That "canister" setup with multiple missiles in one launch tube is akin to the modification made to the Ohio class to make them cruise missile subs.
That's with all recent-block Virginias. It's a shorter version of the tube refits in the SSGN Ohios. The tubes were never in the stern, the VLS in all SSNs has always been just behind the sonar, back to the Flight II 688s.
>... if you took that canister out, could you fit an SRBM into there?
Too short. The Ohios had 8ft more beam. You'd need to design an all new missile for it, and attendant wet launch systems. And it being in the bow would fuck up trim on launch.
>>30359256
>More so, if they have to get so close to their target
So China/Russia have a ship-based SAM that can out-range the standoff range of the SLAM-ER? Or the JASSM-ER?
>>30358542
>the US is actually quite behind in this field, having used the crappy Harpoon for 40+ years already.
That doesn't speak well of the Chinese or Russian navy.
>>30359404
The sheer ignorance on the subject matter here astounds me. Really, I'm just sad. What happened to you, Russia? Why do you suck so much now? Not even your trolls are worth a fuck. I miss the 80's.
>>30359389
That's great, but designing the chip is just half the work. The software to connect each core to the memory is the other, and much harder, feat.
But not unachieveable, tho. UC Davis only needs to hire more Chinese and Russian coders for this kek.
>>30358860
They are worse than the IL-76 because the Y-20 is a heavier plane the IL-76 you dumb shit.
The Chinese can't even build a lighter plane using "lightweight composites". Probably because they can't make aero grade composites.
>>30359415
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaogan
http://www.satobs.org/noss.html
>None of the U.S. NOSS triplets remain in formation, so the five sets of Chinese triplets are the only intact examples in orbit today.
>>30359479
>comparing a system the US launched in the 70's
>to one the Chinese started launching in 2006
>implying parity
>implying there aren't replacement systems or analogues in modern US ISR
>implying
Why are Chicom dickwaves so pathetic?
>>30359468
Still fact remains that a small missile such as the LRASM will never have the power to break through jamming or even send out any relevant data in a complex electromagnetic environment.
>inb4 more LM advertizing/shilling
No, no and again no. This is physically impossible. No amount of US ver. Nazi-Wunderwaffen will change that.
>>30359514
Fact remains, US NOSS is not in operation aynmore.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cf83817a-abaa-11e0-8a64-00144feabdc0.html
>China’s ‘eye-in-the-sky’ nears par with US
And that's in 2011. Five years have passed, and another hundred Chinese satellites have been launched to orbit.
>>30359516
>Still fact remains that a small missile such as the LRASM will never have the power to break through jamming or even send out any relevant data in a complex electromagnetic environment.
It is fucking staggering how little you actually understand about EM propagation, detection, interference and communications applications.
No bullshit: are you still in highschool? I mean, it's cool if you are, I'm just curious. If you aren't, this is getting very sad.
>>30359471
>The software to connect each core to the memory is the other, and much harder, feat.
Yea such a hard feat for USA, which has half of the world's supercomputers and the other half are supercomputers with American tech. You're not too bright are you?
Russian and chinese computing are a joke.
>>30358640
It'll be Sealab 2021, except Chinese live-action
>>30359534
>Fact remains, US NOSS is not in operation aynmore.
>implying NOSS is the only orbital ocean ISR asset the US possesses
Chicom please
>>30359444
>Too short. The Ohios had 8ft more beam. You'd need to design an all new missile for it, and attendant wet launch systems. And it being in the bow would fuck up trim on launch.
So it's not a modification meant for distributing SRBM firepower to lessen the heinous cost of the Ohio Replacement Submarine, then. I wonder what it IS for. It could be for dual-purpose use (swimmer escape trunk, shit like that) but that was supposed to be implemented in the Virginia Payload Module, which is an extra section in the middle of the boat.
So I'm guessing either they found the solution for the Ohio SSGNs is really desirable for other reasons (much faster replenishment/reloading and such) or because it future-proofs the hell out of the boats (no need to worry about larger VLS cells in the future; you just swap out the inserts and you can use the latest greatest toys.)
>>30359538
Please explain, oh wise Radio Engineering PhD.
I just know that the LRASM, despite being VLO, will light up in VHF band and shot down.
>>30359471
>Chinks
>not stealing half of their software via hacking
mmhmm
>>30359588
None of the US supercomputers ever used this sort of clustered design. Sorry, so no.
Not a single Western computer have even a million cores, let alone 10 million. Chinese have programmed the software on their own.
Or do you want to believe that the Chinese built a time-machine and traveled to a future where the US supercomputing technology isnt pathetic, and stole the software? If this makes you feel better...
>>30357372
The IL-76, which weighs 10k KG less than this piece of shit, and has 40k lbs more thrust than this piece of shit, is the same size physically, and Russia has stated it carries a max of 60 tons.
What sort of nonsense Chinese math are they using to come up with 66tons max payload?
It's probably closer to 30-40 ton max payload, putting it in the same class as the A400.
top kek china.
>>30359605
China has to use that many cores because their cores are such absolute shit that they are brute forcing their way to get those speeds, if they are even getting those speeds.
It's literally trash.
>>30359479
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Ocean_Surveillance_System#Third_generation
>most recent launches in 2015
>"none remain operational"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28satellite%29
>last launch: this year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28satellite%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpet_%28satellite%29
bro
this is getting embarassing
>murricans fellating about LRASM
>subsonic speed
TOPKEK
With 900km range and at subsonic speeds, all the Chinese have to do is just to move away from the search area and the LRASM will fly in circles trying to find its target. If the Chinese didnt already went home after unleashing their supersonics at that point, that is.
>>30359574
>VHF
>resolution to provide targeting information
Inb4 faster computers without explaining how that works.
>>30359622
Kek, so much projection.
I bet your mother didnt treat you well.
>>30359645
>he doesn't know what the word fellate means or how to use it
>>30359655
Projection? I stated facts proving that the Chinese straight up lie about everything.
>>30359605
>None of the US supercomputers ever used this sort of clustered design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_cluster
We fucking INVENTED that concept, nerd.
>>30359655
That what the word "projection" means.
>>30359649
Now, I wait for your American Exceptionalist explanation why the E-2D's VHF-radars would be able to provide accurate information to guide SM-6 SAMs.
I'm pretty amused about all that technobabble that the US fanboys have to invent and google to explain why natural laws only apply to their enemies, but never to themselves.
>>30359568
>So it's not a modification meant for distributing SRBM firepower to lessen the heinous cost of the Ohio Replacement Submarine, then
No. They refit the Ohios and had the serendipitous discovery that putting multiple tubes in a larger module meant much easier build, easier maintenance and less mechanical complexity and failure points. Sort of a lucky discovery.
>It could be for dual-purpose use (swimmer escape trunk, shit like that)
It's called a mass lockout trunk, and the Ohio class SSGNs have these and more. They can even launch drones from some tube modules. They're made to be swapped out as whole modules depending on mission.
>but that was supposed to be implemented in the Virginia Payload Module, which is an extra section in the middle of the boat.
The VPM is something different. It's mean to make the SSNs much more capable per boat (more bang for buck) while gradually taking the load off the retiring Ohio SSGNs and Seawolfs. And having interchangeable secret squirrel capable boats is a good thing.
>>30359645
>outrunning an AShM at ~30 knots
>>30359663
>facts
Not a single one.
>>30359676
>subsonic missiles arrive on time to destroy something that is moving while 900km away.
>at sea-skimming altitute even
top kek
>>30359574
>I just know that the LRASM, despite being VLO, will light up in VHF band and shot down.
The words "directional" have been used at least a half dozen times already in this thread. That's literally all you need to go educate yourself at a basic level on google. Start with directional emitters and then look at what just about every country with an aviation industry is doing with AESA t/r module arrays these days. It's literally that easy, you cheetoh sucking lazy fuck.
>>30357304
/thg/,chinese info threads and british info threads are great., Im going to go through here saving ship pics
>>30359671
>APS-145 is a high-power UHF Doppler
radar
>>30359645
>With 900km range and at subsonic speeds, all the Chinese have to do is just to move away from the search area and the LRASM will fly in circles trying to find its target. If the Chinese didnt already went home after unleashing their supersonics at that point, that is.
http://www.docfoc.com/naval-engineers-journal-volume-109-issue-1-1997-j-f-mceachron-subsonic-and-supersonic-antiship-missiles-an-effectiveness-and-utility-comparison
Page 62:
>If our technology cannot provide a seeker better than A, then we clearly need supersonic
speed to provide one-pass target acquisition at long ranges. Seeker B, however, can cover the subsonic missile’s AOU out to 190 km, beyond the standoff range requirements
computed in previous sections of this paper. If we can build seeker B, then supersonic speed is unnecessary strictly for the purposes of aiding target acquisition
Ergo, anyone using supersonic ASMs have shit technology and must compensate for it.
>>30359671
>why the E-2D's VHF-radars would be able to provide accurate information to guide SM-6 SAMs
They don't.
The E2-Ds radar picks up and localizes the target quite well, but the SM-6 has to use its own built-in active radar seeker for terminal intercept.
Are there any other difficult technical concepts you would like the stupid American fanboy to explain to you?
>>30359674
>No. They refit the Ohios and had the serendipitous discovery that putting multiple tubes in a larger module meant much easier build, easier maintenance and less mechanical complexity and failure points. Sort of a lucky discovery.
Aha, neat.
>They can even launch drones from some tube modules.
Fucking WHAT.
>And having interchangeable secret squirrel capable boats is a good thing.
True dat, and they've got added capability as fast-attack boats too, which is nice. Cable taps for everyone!
>>30359444
>Hatch failed to open
>Overriding
>nope
>welp guess we just lost 6 fucking tubes.
Really though it can't possibly be worse than 688 VLS for reliability and ease of maintenance.
>>30359671
Note the deflection and lack of addressing what was actually said.
>>30359744
Nice.
This is the unsubstanciated technobabble/american exceptionalist argument I was waiting for.
tl;dr
American science-magic-powered-by-freedom can make the earth fall on the apple and invalidate every other natural law.
Nigger, not even your AESA radars onboard your F-22 have an useful 190km range. Let alone that small missile, which shares its space with ImIR seekers as well.
I think we are done here. Murricans with their space-magic explaination directly out of the mouth of an LM corporate shill completely live in their own imaginary world.
Journal articles are nice. I can post you multiple ones from Chinese naval weapon journals about self-guided, laser armed killed drones and stuff. Interesting read and just as weighty of an evidence as what you have posted yourself.
>>30359771
>The E2-Ds radar picks up and localizes the target quite well, but the SM-6 has to use its own built-in active radar seeker for terminal intercept.
Nice. Sounds exactly of what the Chinese and Russians are doing as well! The HHQ-9 series of SAM are all active radar guided (you find not a single FCR onboard of a 052C/D for that matter - compared to those vintage cassegrain antennae onboard the Burkes and Ticos kek), and the S-400 as well.
Now, explain me why China and Russia cant do that. Because America only magic tech etc.
AMERICA
B T F O
>>30359705
>outrunning an AShM while traveling at 30 knots
>>30359826
>Nigger, not even your AESA radars onboard your F-22 have an useful 190km range.
>he thinks initial pre-launch target detection and ranging are done by the radar seeker on the missile itself
>The targeting error is the difference between the target's true location and the ASM aimpoint at launch. This error is also statistically quantified with both a bias and a normally distributed random component. It is the most difficult part of AOU to quantify. For engagements within the horizon, sensors on the launch platform can typically locate the target with minimal errors. In over-the-horizon (OTH) engagements, the errors can be many kilometers in both bias and standard deviation: a one sigma standard deviation of 3.7 km is not unrealistic. Supersonic speed does nothing to compensate for targeting error. How sigmficant are these errors relative to the comparison of subsonic and supersonic ASMs? The answer is that it depends upon seeker detection range and scan characteristics.
>If we assume a 30 knot target, a one sigma midcourse guidance error of 35 Whr, and a one sigma targeting error of 3.7 km, we can calculate the growth in AOU size as a function of range and speed. Since the AOU size has a statistical nature, we choose two sigma errors such that ninety-five percent of the potential cases are enclosed in our AOU. Figure 4 shows the result. The cross-range extent at ASM launch is Z 4 km due to targeting and grows to over 19 km at 185 km range for the subsonic missile. The supersonic missile's corresponding errors only grow to 13.5 km at the same range.
When the internet retards resort to desperate strawman attacks - shooting from the hip, even - you know you've won.
>>30357431
Does anybody know what the name of the ship in that picture is? Im 99.99% certain its a Type 054A but it doesnt have a number on the hull so I can´t be sure what the name of it is.
>>30359826
Nigger, supersonic anti-ship missiles are short range.
>>30359826
So you literally just admitted that none of your own claims can be substantiated. You are the personification of these shit-tier spam China-strong threads.
>>30359864
>compared to those vintage cassegrain antennae onboard the Burkes and Ticos
Not because they want to - because they have to.
What makes the SM-6 special is its ability to engage targets below the radar horizon - a Standard Missile 2, like most SAMs (including the Patriot and th Russians vaunted S-300/400 and the HQ-series systems based on those) all use track-via-missile targeting; a combination of command guidance and semi-active radar homing; the missile has the radio receiver, but the ground station does the computing and tells the missile where to go, turning over to the missile for terminal intercept. This makes it a lot more effective than pure semi-active homing while keeping the missiles a hell of a lot cheaper, which is vital when you're talking about defense saturation.
The SM-6, with its own radar receiver, can engage sea-skimmers out to maximum range, (since it doesn't need illumination from FCR radars on the ship,) thus vastly expanding the engagement envelope. Chinese ships, however, are probably switching to those active-guided missiles for the same reason that two of the three S-400 system missiles have active guidance - the Growler.
OECM jamming is a real fucking bitch, and the Growler is a very, very powerful platform for it. It vastly reduces your effective targeting range; shrinking the standoff advantage - you can pick up where the target is, but you can't pinpoint it good enough for a track-via-missile launch. A terminal-active missile can at least be fired at the more general location and find its own way once it gets close enough to turn on its own radars.
These things are hideously expensive; which is why the SM-6 is considered a "silver bullet" that augments, but does not replace, the Standard Missile series. The fact that Chinese fire-control radars cannot compete against the Growler and other OECM jamming systems without switching wholesale to a much, much more expensive missile does not bode well for their chances.
>>30359686
lol so you are disagreeing with me that the Y-20 weighs 10k KGs more than the IL-76? That the D-30s produce 10k lbs less thrust each than the PS-90?
>>30359864
Missile seeker vs VLO target.
>>30359968
So you see, China's hand (like Russia before them) has been forced by American superiority in OECM systems. With the new Multi-Mission Tomahawk incorporating a defensive ECM system to jam incoming SAMs and the LRASM soon to be fielded with much, much better weaponry - to say nothing of the F-35, which is due to receive its own comprehensive suite of built-in jamming systems (which was only omitted so the aircraft could be fielded faster) in future bloc upgrades, it's more and more essential for China and Russia to field active-homing weapons to make up the gap. And that puts them at a steep cost disadvantage, which is bad for them, because they both (especially Russia) have less money than the US to spend on defense to begin with.
You see, there is nothing magical or wonderous about American military superiority. It is simply the natural consequence of American economic, educational and technological superiority in almost every field you care to name. That is why Chinese scientists (with PLA connections) are being sent to American universities to learn their trade, and why the Chinese and Russians both invest so heavily in espionage; to steal from us what they could not hope to develop themselves (such as most of the big advancements in Russian submarine tech; and even after that big leg-up we snuck our SSNs into their obsessively guarded off-coast "bastions" regularly.)
I know it's hard to admit that your nation doesn't have the biggest cock on the block, but acceptance is the first step to getting help.
>the Silence of the Vatniks
>>30359791
>Fucking WHAT.
Yup. Just the Ohio SSGNs AFAIK, though. Maybe the VPM boats will get that capability, but I doubt it.
>>30359823
>>welp guess we just lost 6 fucking tubes.
I'd have to guess that particular failure point would be well addressed by now. It's one of the least mechanically complex parts of the whole system. I'd be more worried about seal failure in individual cells or the pressurized gas systems...
>>30359826
>This is the unsubstanciated technobabble/american exceptionalist argument I was waiting for.
>technobabble
>simple risk/benefit analysis and algebra level math
Did you make it to middle school?
>>30360137
You won't get an answer. He's seething, so he tried the whole WOW UR SO BAD I'M DONE (at the same time the obligatory 'MERICA BTFO posts started showing up) in an attempt to punch out before his flaming wreck of an argument augured in.
Basically, Vatniks are like cats. They run into a wall, and then they go staggering away like they didn't do nuthin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzvm8k5kSjs Skip to 3:50
>>30360124
On an older boat we had 2 tubes fail to open on a deployment a few years ago. The hatches just would not operate despite no apparent mechanical or electrical fault. The ship went into drydock after deployment and those stuck hatches came open by themselves one day in complete defiance of the fact that it should be mechanically impossible for that to happen. After that all of the hatches functioned normally for years.
But you're right the pressurization system is a total nightmare, it rarely works as intended.
>>30357372
>>30357412
Oh look, a shitty Globemaster knockoff with even shittier engines that showed up to the party 20 years late. I sure am in awe of Chinese heavy lift might.
It doesnt even have winglets for christsake, just fuck my fuel efficiency up senpai
>>30357431
>>30357437
>These new giant flags
Finally China gets some taste and does as Murrica. A flag cant be big enough.
Glorious China
Glorious PLAN
>>30359891
>>30359744
>Ergo, anyone using supersonic ASMs have shit technology and must compensate for it.
Looks like China is pretty good, then.
Meet the YJ-62A: Subsonic, 650km range for the domestic version that is not subject to the 300km limit for export systems.
Monopulse active radar seeker, two-way datalink, waypoint functionality.
Deployed: 2003 onboard the Luyang-II destroyer.
Looks like America indeed is very much behind.
>>30360255
>On an older boat we had 2 tubes fail to open on a deployment a few years ago. The hatches just would not operate despite no apparent mechanical or electrical fault. The ship went into drydock after deployment and those stuck hatches came open by themselves one day in complete defiance of the fact that it should be mechanically impossible for that to happen. After that all of the hatches functioned normally for years.
>hatches came open by themselves
Jesus shitfire, that's horrifying. Can you imagine the harmonic clusterfuck on sonar that would have caused at 15 knots while on deployment?
>>30360412
Deployed on China's artificial islands as well, each creating a 600km exclusion zone around themselves.
>>30360412
>>30360425
I love how they get BTFO, then wait 45 minutes before posting again, hoping that whoever was using their cornhole to drill for oil has gotten bored and wandered off.
>>30358224
He is foreigner, so translated that is saying the missile has 10.000 km range, around six miles. I believe it.
>>30360425
And the VWP-70 turbofan engine for a new anti-ship missile under development: VLO design and ImIR/active radar dual seeker.
>>30360425
YJ-18 vertical launch and hit of the supersonic penetrator.
Murrica cant into something like this.
>>30357304
Anything is better than the USN rust-buckets that are falling apart by themselves.
>>30360532
>>30360532
>>30360544
Do you reeeeeeeally want to play this game chong? You can dig up all the pics of end of deployment boats you like, but we all know what China's submarine force looks like. Pic related.
>>30359605
becuase the chicoms havent stolen the pipelining tech so they need that many cores
the last chinese invention was gunpowder and they didnt even know how to use it right.
>>30360440
Indeed they do, but I just went and ate dinner and LOOK WHO'S BACK, BITCH-TITS!
>>30360421
Nobody could even speculate on how it happened, the hatch fairings are physically held shut by a locking bar until you try and open them.
>>30360137
he's still using an abacus
Just a reminder to China that if shit goes hot in the South China Sea or Senkakus, you won't just be fighting the U.S. We're bringing our friends.
>>30360412
>650km range
If you accept Chinese claims at face value, sure. But that's only 350 nautical miles. The Tomahawk (the base Tomahawk, not the new anti-shipping variant, mind you - who's ability to hit moving ships at sea was recently proven by a live-fire test,) has a range of 1,600 nautical miles.
1,600 fucking nautical miles.
You chinks need to git gud, son.
>>30360723
I'm calling dockyard monkey dickpushing random buttons.
This is the answer to all inexplicable evils, by the way.
>Anon?
>Yeah?
>We just found out. Your daughter is pregnant.
>AT FUCKING 15?!
>Yeah...
>MOTHERFUCKING CUM GARGLING DOCKYARD MONKEY DICKS
See? Works for everything.
>>30357304
That's not a VLS system.
And you're overstating the range and speed of their AShMs.
No.
>>30360484
We don't need huge supersonic missiles that trade range for slightly better terminal attack chances because our ECM and sensor systems are far superior. We actually had a few supersonic ASMs in development that we cancelled specifically because we decided against them.
A truly interesting missile is the Russian Kalibir, which flies subsonic (and gains all the benefits of that) but accelerates to supersonic speeds for the terminal attack, getting the best of both worlds. Course, Chinks can't do that. In fact China can't even match the BrahMos missile, kek.
>>30360532
>Anything is better than the USN rust-buckets that are falling apart by themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTMS_Naresuan
>When Thailand ordered four new 053 frigates in 1990, China built them to the (then) latest 053H2 (Jianghu III) standard. Two were modified with helicopter decks in the back. Although the price was excellent (2 billion baht each, compared to 8 billion baht for western ships), the Thai Navy complained of quality issues. The interior wiring was exposed and had to be re-wired. The ship's battle damage control system was very limited, with poor fire-suppression system and water-tight locks. It's said that if the ship's hull was breached, rapid flooding would lead to loss of ship. The Thai Navy had to spend considerable time and effort to correct some of these issues.[1]
Shit nerd, your knockoffs leave the yard as rusting piles of shit.
>>30360766
Those now have an added VLS system. Looking for pic. The base Type 93s dont. At least he got that much right.
>>30360784
>We actually had a few supersonic ASMs in development that we cancelled specifically because we decided against them.
And we've built plenty of supersonic AShMs as target drones.
>>30360806
Indeed. It's not a question of ability, it's a question of assets. For instance, the Harpoon everyone shits on - yes, it's old, but it was never intended as a primary surface-to-surface weapon. It was meant as an air-launched weapon. So it was light and cheap; good for saturating enemy defenses. Putting them on surface ships was just an afterthought. And I should note, at the very start of the Missile Age the USN applied itself to dual-role SAMs that also doubled as anti-surface missiles, and due to kill-chain issues for a long long time there was little reason to invest in BVR surface-to-surface weapons. The Russians had the exact same targeting problems but invested in them because of one simple fact - they didn't have aircraft carriers and could not really afford them, either.
This is a Granit missile. This motherfucker's damn near the size and weight of a MiG-21, for fucks sake. They want to deliver a nasty kick similar to a carrier deckload strike, but they cannot into carriers and even if they did they couldn't equip them with aircraft good enough to stand a chance against a competing US air wing. So, what the hell, just make them single-shot missiles and use the massive weight allowance to make them very high-performance and very, very sophisticated.
Simple strategic/economic trade-offs.
>>30360792
Gotcha, I'd like to see that pic.
>.50 cent bails for an hour hoping the anons who blew him the fuck out have moved on
>>30360757
That doesn't explain why it worked.
>>30360855
>just make them single-shot missiles and use the massive weight allowance to make them very high-performance and very, very sophisticated.
But also be required to build massive dedicated launch tubes for them. In the old Soviet and Chinese way, the missiles were high performance, but huge and not interchangable with other launch systems. The USN, since 1980, preferred a universal launch system with more missiles being better even if the individual missiles were less capable one for one.
I'm confused is this just some like Chinese weeaboo that starts these threads? Or is this a delusional China man?
>>30360412
>Meet the YJ-62A: Subsonic, 650km range for the domestic version that is not subject to the 300km limit for export systems.
Considering the 'export' version of the YJ-62 does not even have a 300km range, a 650km range for the 'domestic' version is extremely dubious.
>>30360918
Chinese in Australia.
>>30358243
>>30358224
Not that i believe the claims of the range but the B-36 had a range of 9,700km and that was in the 40's. SO it could be possible if he's taking into account the plane or whatever.
>>30361148
>it could be possible if he's taking into account the plane or whatever.
Two of the longest ranged missile-fighter systems on the planet, the F-35 and LRASM combine for 2,088km total range (interdiction load combat radius + LRASM). That's 1/5th of the range he's suggesting. If we're talking about strategic bombers and some air-launched version it just gets ridiculous. B-2 range is 11,100km, for christ sake.
Either way, he didn't specify and pretended like the missile itself had that kind of range - which is only 2,000km less than a fucking Trident II SLBM for fuck's sake.
It's beyond retarded.
>>30361236
>only 2,000km less than a fucking Trident II SLBM
Top Kek
>>30357431
>3rd largest fleet after the US and Canada
I hope that's not implying Canada has a big fleet, we got fuck all for ships.
>>30358988
An even bigger problem with high resolution satellites is they have a very narrow field of view. You'd need about 14,000 of them to keep 'real time' targeting data.
>>30359313
>>30359265
>>30359208
>>30359148
>>30359103
Chink here with a military background. Grew up on a sub base, my grandpa was a rear admiral during the Korean War.
Don't believe everything you hear out of China. Don't believe ANYTHING you hear out of China. Having spent a lot of time in and out of military facilities, I can tell you the only fields that China is advanced in are corruption and bullshit.
The only reason China's emphasizing their military is due to a SEVERE feeling of humiliation and emasculation ever since the Opium war. They're like the little kid trying to prove how strong and grown up they are, staging giant military parades and shit.
The truth is that the Naval force is actually pretty inept and filled with corruption. The giant brain drain post Tiananmen didn't help technological progress either, EVERYONE smart in China wants to at least study abroad, cause Chinese institutions of higher learning are less than a joke.
Besides, if China ever got into a war it would collapse from the inside. What keeps the country stable despite all the oppression is a populace contented with materialism after the horrors of the Cultural Revolution. Since Xiaoping the attitude has been to care less about politics and more about money. Take away their iPhones and there's gonna be a goddamn revolt.
>>30357819
Didn't we blow up the last one?
>>30361806
>Take away their iPhones and there's gonna be a goddamn revolt.
Freedom EMP delivered when?
you faggots bitch about these threads but at least everyone is talking about weapons you cucks
>>30361988
What is this, the potato farm version of only pretending to be retarded?
>>30360750
left to right
>smells like burgers
>smells like curry and poo
>smells like anime
>>30360544
ouch, wtf happened here?
Any J-20 news?
>>30361806
Thank you for this post, because it neatly summarizes a lot of angles I've heard about before while introducing a new one:
>The only reason China's emphasizing their military is due to a SEVERE feeling of humiliation and emasculation ever since the Opium war. They're like the little kid trying to prove how strong and grown up they are, staging giant military parades and shit.
I've always, always gotten this vibe from them, and I'm glad to know I was onto something. It's the exact same anti-colonialism which eventually drove Japan into a ruinous war with America.
>>30357665
>as much as 3,000 meters (9,800 feet) below the surface
Imagine the smell?
>>30362450
What will they eat? Will they have to import wild dogs and heaps of random trash into the facility to stay fed?
>>30362345
six months at sea
>>30360855
>dual-role SAMs
The USN is planning to add land attack capabilities to SM-6, although due to the BDM sites in Europe they fall under INF range restrictions.
>>30359353
Pertinent issues.
>>30362695
The SM-2ER can also serve as an AShM. Same with the SM-6. Not sure about SM-1.
>>30362695
>The USN is planning to add land attack capabilities to SM-6
>land attack
No they aren't.
>>30359083
>DF-21 is a dangerous weapon,
Not particularly. It has significantly less than 1% chance of hitting a carrier moving at 30 knots. Just moving, not evading, not launching countermeasures.
Once you factor for the number of DF-21 hits needed to actually sink a carrier, China would have to launch over 1200 DF-21s to sink a single Ford class carrier. Iirc, 1200 DF-21s cost about the same as a Ford.
>>30362695
>The USN is planning to add land attack capabilities to SM-6
That's actually just insane Vatnik propaganda trying to spin the missile defense shield in Romania into an 'OFFENSIVE WEAPON' aimed at them. I shit you fucking negative they've tried to say the SM-3 can be turned into a land-attack weapon with "a simple software upgrade."
>>30362936
>Not particularly. It has significantly less than 1% chance of hitting a carrier moving at 30 knots.
Does anyone have some real data to back that up? It doesn't do to underestimate your enemy.
>>30362318
>Jap boat smelling like curry and poo.
>>30361806
It's all well and good to laugh at propaganda, but China IS growing stronger and we shouldn't just spend our time laughing as they try and catch up.
>>30362391
It's not just anti-colonialism. Read Susan Shirk's "China: Fragile Superpower." She has the interesting thesis that now that the CCP can no longer rely on Communism as a driving ideology, they have to fall back on good ole fashioned nationalism. To ensure the survival of the Party, they will likely try and whip up even stronger feelings of national pride.
This increased pride plus their growing capabilities means we should not make the mistake of underestimating them as potential adversaries.
>>30362986
Why wouldn't it be able to be used in the ground attack role? A large metal tank or phone signal tower would give a large enough radar return wouldn't it?
>>30357665
Doesn't something like this put material sciences and construction quality to the test?
>>30363070
Because an SM-6 costs 2-3x what a Tomahawk does.
>>30362318
There are no Indian ships in that picture.
>>30363061
>It's not just anti-colonialism. Read Susan Shirk's "China: Fragile Superpower." She has the interesting thesis that now that the CCP can no longer rely on Communism as a driving ideology, they have to fall back on good ole fashioned nationalism. To ensure the survival of the Party, they will likely try and whip up even stronger feelings of national pride.
Huh. That's a very good point. I've always wondered how well China's dealt with the slow, quiet murder of Communism - one thing that's apparent to me is that while Russia is operating on good old fashioned cynicism/apathy in the classic I Guess Strongmen Are Good Enough vein, China are still True Believers (just look at how fucking much they hate the very existence of free Taiwan.) That's a pretty good explanation of why.
>This increased pride plus their growing capabilities means we should not make the mistake of underestimating them as potential adversaries.
Indeed. Recently I was asked who I thought was most likely to start up the next war, Russia or China, and I answered China for this precise reason.
>>30363070
Aside from every ship in the Navy carrying a fuckton of Tomahawk missiles - the SM-6 has a miniscule warhead that would do very little damage to a ground target. No reason at all to make it do that when superior weapons already exist in numbers.
There were plans a long while back for a "do everything" SAM that would've added land-attack to the abilities, but the program was cancelled.
>>30363001
it doesn't do to try and use a terminal seeker through the plasma caused by re-entering at those speeds either but that doesn't stop anyone posting bullshit about those missiles.
both the us and ussr researched those weapons. they both stopped for reasons.
>>30358640
>Though, I'm calling bullshit at it serving any military function. 3000 meters is way, way deeper than any ccurrent military sub can go. Like, even the old Alfas with their stronk soviet titanium hulls had a crush depth of not even half of that. I guess they could make it a sonar listening station, but there's no real advantage over putting one in shallower waters for a lot less effort involved.
It's not supposed to be a submarine. And 3000m is a goal, not something that will be achieved by the first version of this "space station". And I doubt it's ever going to be manned in practice..
>hunt for minerals
Lel. I wonder what the goal actually is? Deep listening post? Maybe as a base for UUVs as well?
>>30357431
>A-class
>052C
Haha no. A-class is the 055 being assembled somewhere in Shanghai right now. The 052D is a definite step above the 052C too.
>>30363070
They could, AShM to land-attack is a relatively simple conversion that a number of nations have done, most with old Chinese Silkworms.
>>30363566
Which version of a Silkworm would that be?
>>30357599
Troll
>>30357564
No they don't
>>30358242
Metal as fuck though.
>>30363189
>China
>True believers in communism.
Bitch please, they're communist in name only. Closer to Fascism at this point. They hate Taiwan for nationalist reasons.
>>30357304
How long till it sinks? 6 months?
>>30364133
I don't see how pointing out that a thread is copy-pasta spam is trolling.
>>30364338
That's my point. They're "True Believers" but it can't possibly be Communism, not anymore.
>>30363803
HY-2, used as basis for a land-attack missile by Iraq (Jinin), Iran (Raad), China (YJ-4) and, according to rumor, North Korea.
>>30359968
Not that Chink your talking too but just a bit curious.
Russia and China does not field ARH missiles?
>>30365916
So not just a software patch.
>>30358242
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the term "Artificial Intelligence" implies anything at all about sapience, self awareness or even overall intelligence level.
