What did the Finns in 1939 do right that the Polish in 1939 did not?
Why was Finland able to stand against a huge army while Poland was not?
History.
Sisu
Geography. Weather. Lack of purges throughout the enemy officer corp.
>>30244360
Placing their nation in what is probably the greatest landscape in the world to fight a defensive battles.
>>30244360
In fairness, it was more about Ruskies doing a lot wrong. The rest was just the Finns having guts of steel and good aim.
Poland was fucking crushed from both sides
Compare and Contrast
>>30244360
The Polish didn't have a Simo
Terrain, training, equipment, and not being invaded from another country at the same time.
The Finns were prepared for war and knew where and how they were going to fight. The Polish got surprised and by the time they tried to react their communications and transport lines had been severed by air raids.
The Polish units that were able to organize a fight put up one hell of a resistance. Then they also had to deal with the Red Army invading, so they were caught in a massive pincer.
The Poles did fine all things considered, the French on the other hand had no excuse.
>>30244587
He is talking about the Winter War, distance to Berlin doesn't matter for the Finns.
>>30245025
>That's the joke
Poles had to fight the Russians AND the Germans
>>30245081
Gotcha wasn't sure if that is what you were getting at.
>>30244360
OK this picture really drives home how fucking shit the armor on these early tanks were.
I don't think that would stop a modern 7.62 NEATO much less a 7.62 RUSSIA STRONK
Hell even 9mm must have caused spalling.
>>30244360
German High Command wasn't full of fuck ups.
>>30244831
> The Finns were prepared for war and knew where and how they were going to fight.
So did the Poles but unfortunately for them, they were the first to encounter blitzkrieg and were overwhelmingly outnumbered in every conceivable category, while having to defend a broad front against attacks from literally all directions, on terrain that provided virtually no natural defenses, against both the Germans and Soviets.
Still managed to hold out longer than France…
>>30244360
There are countless reason:
1.Geography: USSR-Poland border was just steps/forests. There are some rivers there, but they were perpendicular to border so they didn't provide much defence.
2. Non-violent "purge" of officer: After May Coup ('26) Marshal Piłsudzki started to replace some of commanders (mainly higher ranks) based on loyality rather than performance. After he died, his "deciples" continued doing this. This led to:
3.Incompetence of Polish Army HQ: First they fucked up when fighting Germans (holding large part of army in reserve until was too late), then when Soviets attacked, at first they ordered to not engage them. This lead to confusion among Border Defence Corps and resulted in easy advance of Soviet army.
4.Already getting anihilated by Germans.
>>30245445
The Poles also defended the whole Border to Germany, so they stretched out way to thin...
>>30245530
yes, but we were talking about Soviet invasion.
>>30245634
>yes, but we were talking about Soviet invasion.
are you dense? They happened roughly at the same time. That's one of the reasons they didn't do so well, because they had a two front war against two military behemoths.
>>30245668
>soviet invasion
>defended the whole Border to Germany, so they stretched out way to thin...
apparently we are now discussing reason why Poland failed against Germans
The will to defend and faith in this country.
Too bad that's gone now.
Polish high command was incompetent. They failed to cede territory to set up a proper defense in a position where they might have had a tiny chance.
Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart, a belgian born british officer with boots on the ground in Poland offered a workable plan, which would at least have drawn out the fight longer and would have allowed either aid to come or allow for a more extensive evacuation. His plan was utterly ignored because it involved ceding ground to the enemy and all his predictions proved true. Only his proposed evacuation of the Polish Navy actually took place, and proved a huge asset to the allies in the later unfolding of the war.
It's recommended that you read up on Adrian Carton de Wiart. He was quite a fucking /k/ommando... Such a badass that he didn't even mention receiving a Victoria Cross in his autobiography cuz that would be boasting. His actions talk for himself. He's like a belgobritish Ernst Jünger.
>>30246273
>allowed aid to come
>Phoney War
>>30244360
The poles thought they could kill tanks with lances for one thing.
>>30246308
>shitposting nazi propaganda memes
What you should be asking is what the Poles in 1919 did right that the Finns in 1939 did not.
>>30246319
Polish-Soviet war was less about Poles doing something right and more about Soviets doing quite a lot wrong.
>>30244360
Uhh. The Finns lost. They put up a good fight but in the end lost. The Soviets got what they wanted. Churchill wanted to send troops to Finland and got everything ready. But then Hitler invaded Norway and the British troops were diverted there. It would be interesting if the Brits managed to land in Finland.
>>30246350
>The Soviets got what they wanted.
The complete annexation of Finland?
>>30246350
nope,Stalin didn't quite get what he wanted
obviously he wants Finland to become a soviet satellite,just like Belarus,Lithuania etc will eventually become
sure they lost a lot of land but they still kept their sovereignty
>>30246347
*tips fedora*
Communism has never been tried.
>>30246319
>Post-revolution USSR is as strong as 1939 USSR.
>reality
pick one plz
>>30246483
what?
>>30245150
15mm of steel is plenty enough to stop a rifle round.
>>30245150
It would stop them.
It was designed with resisting rounds like .303 or, well 7.62x54R in mind
>>30246377
>just like Belarus,Lithuania etc will eventually become
Those were just straight up parts of the USSR.
Poland, DDR, etc, that's the satellites.
As for Finland, they didn't get snared in quite that much either, but Soviet influence in their politics was still considerable during much of the cold war.
>>30246593
yeah they had to appease the commies in the kremlin,but atleast they dont need to stand in line for bread
>>30246653
hell the war reparations are what forced the finnish industry to kick off.
>>30245081
in that case what did poland do wrong in 1939 what estonains did right in 1920
>>30246517
>wah wah we were post revolution we we're weak so ti doesn't count
You vatniks were retarded enough to get in wars then despite the revolution. You got fucking destroyed by everyone, including schoolboys on a schooltrip from estonia to st petersburg.
You fucked up and got asses kicked. It counts.
>>30244360
That's not a T-28. What is it though?
>>30246830
early t28
>>30246830
vickers six ton tank female version
>>30246350
>Vatniks still believe this
>>30244386
I agree with you generally.
do you think nazi germany's backing of Finland vs. everybody basically waiting to carve up Poland had something to do with it too?
While >>30244831 and other facts stated here, unlike the finns who were fighting what was essentially a glorified third world army, the polish were fighting a very well equipped, highly disciplined army with state of the art vehicles and aircraft.
A big fucking difference
>>30246830
T-26 Two turret version,most of those were converted to single turret with 45 mm soviet at gun in finnish service
>>30246976
Also known as T-26 model 1931.
>>30246960
Finland had no German backing during Winter War (Nov 1939 - March 1940). In fact during it Germany was (in accordance of Molotov - Ribbentrop Treaty) doing its best to stop any deliveries of weapons and ammunition that Finland had bought from countries of central and southern Europe. Also when the war broke out Finland asked from Germany, if Germany would be willing to work as middleman to arrange peace negotiations in between Finland and Soviet Union - to which Germany replied by suggesting that Finland would unconditionally surrender to Soviet Union.
Until Winter War Hitler and his cronies had no interest towards Finland - if anything the Finnish - German relations were rather poor because Finnish press did to mind telling its opinion about Nazis and their actions. Hitler and his inner circle only changed their mind around August of 1940, when they found use for Finland in their plans for Operation Barbarossa.
>>30246961
That would be gross simplification. While Soviet pre year 1939 military training was pretty poor and (for the large part due to purges and system of political oversight with military commissars) much of their military leadership was incompetent or lazy. But they still had the world's largest air force, world's largest tank fleet, fuck-huge artillery inventory and massive number of soldiers. But due to poor training and leadership they were unable to effectively use all their manpower and firepower. In addition the Soviets had mainly concentrated to develop their capability to fight in steps in summer - not in snow-covered forests. Not long before this they had just beaten Japanese military in highly effective manner.
The Finns on the other hand had spent 1920's and 1930's concentrated developing their tactics, military training and equipment for one specific task - fighting Soviet Red Army in Finnish terrain and conditions.
>>30247706
Even though Finnish goverment saw the war coming a few weeks ahead, the defence forces budget was absurdly low for the whole 1930's.
It was common for an infantryman to fight with his own clothes and gear, only receiving a rifle and an emblem for his fur hat.
The finnish militia, known as "suojeluskunta", members in the other hand were the backbone of their respective units. These /k/ommandos of the time had bought their own rifles, tailor made (not in the fancy, but comfy way) uniforms and rucksacks. The militia members knew how to operate different weapon systems the army had and had practised squad-platoon level tactics on their free time.
Without these gearfags and weapon-autists the war would have ended way worse for the Finns.
>>30246273
he did though, he said that he didn't earn it, but his men did.
>>30246273
> They failed to cede territory to set up a proper defense in a position where they might have had a tiny chance.
Territory that contained most of the coutry’s population and most of Poland’s industry.
They couldn’t just leave that behind, even if they knew France and the UK weren’t going to do shit to help them.
All it would have gotten Poland was another week or two of being pounded by both the Germans and Soviets, leaving even fewer troops to escape to the West to carry on the fight.
>>30246517
>Post-WWI Poland is as strong as 1939 Poland.
Finland only had to worry about one front line, and they were only fighting Russia. Poland got invaded from all sides simultaneously by multiple regional powers.
>>30244360
Widespread civilian ownership of militarily relevant rifles.
The Finns had under the table support from both the Axis and the Allies.
>>30249497
...on the other hand in year 1939 Poland had population of about 35 million, while population of Finland was only 3.8 million.
Play Talvisota: Icy Hell and find out for yourself.
>>30249512
While that is a nice idea (and a good point considering situation at the moment), this would actually be incorrect. While Finnish Civil Guard (Suojeluskunta) members (volunteer force of about 120,000 men) had rifles at home, technically grand majority of the rifles was property of Civil Guard (*) - not private property of its individual members.
(*) To be exact Civil Guard rifle inventory also contained large number of rifles loaned from Armed Forces.
Mannerheim was a fantastic general. Great leadership trickles down, unlike wealth.
Great militia system. Local garrisons and set up very well. Citizen soldiers.
Better rifles... anyone who owns a Finn m39 and a 91/30 knows which one is boss.
Something to fight for... you're fighting for your own backyard vs just some peasant scrub conscript told "ok go here to spread communism"
Fucking br00tal winters man, worse than the Russians.
A rifleman's culture in mountainous terrain.
>>30250005
>A rifleman's culture in mountainous terrain.
Contrary to popular belief, much (if not most) of the winter war engagements were done well within SMG range.
The Poles had to fight Russia and Germany. The Finns got loads of material aid from Germany, without German anti-tank weapons the Finns would have had no chance.
>>30250020
Yeah along the border right, Karelia or whatever? What I meant mostly is that mountainous terrain.... they will be stopped/slowed advancing as an invading army (kept at that border zone) and the culture of growing up with guns, hunting, having great expanses of open land to shoot = better shooting soldiers
>>30249586
It would be far more accurate to say that during Winter War basically every single country except Germany was willing to sell equipment to Finland. This included Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Britain, Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Hungary, Switzerland, Hungary, Yugoslavia and United States. Some countries were even willing to donate equipment to Finland, although donated equipment was mostly outdated and even the stuff that they sold was usually World War 1 era or older.
Much of this equipment only arrived after Winter War ended. Germany started selling Finland military equipment in August of 1940.
Finns gave their cavalry rifels
Poles gave their cavalry lances
>>30250005
Mannerheim being great general - yes and no. Due to his long service in imperial russian army he know how russian military did things and knew the mindset to such level that he was pretty good at reading what the Soviet generals might try next. On the other hand his leading methods were somewhat outdated and by World War 2 standards his HQ that reminded more of royal court than modern armed forces GHQ was quite a clusterfuck. He was lucky to have few good generals and colonels in his staff and their capability fixed much of the existing limitations.
Civil Guard was not really militia. It was a nationwide voluntary organization, which in 1930's developed into role that allowed it to further train and main military skills for notable part of Finnish reservists. In 1939 these reservists were far better trained than average reservists and played key role in teaching the ropes to their fellow soldiers especially early on.
Rifle m/39 was introduced only after Winter War. The best Finnish rifle for Winter War was m/28-30 developed by Civil Guard.
Finland had not and does not have any mountains. What we have mainly in northern part of country are very large hills. The highest hill in Finland at these days is bit over 1,300 meters high. Generally speaking apparently by international definition to be considered a mountain elevation would need to be at least 2,500 meters high.
>>30250308
Poland gave their cavalry lances in addition of rifles and sabres.
Finland gave their cavalry rifles in addition of sabres.
Both countries trained their infantry to mainly fight dismounted - fighting while on horseback was mainly intended for such situations when there was no alternative (dismounting in open terrain while under fire would have been a very bad idea).
>>30250054
Different war senpai.
>>30250401
Yes. The main Finnish sources from which Finland acquired antitank-weapons during Winter War were Sweden (37-mm Bofors at-guns - some bought and others dotated) and Britain (100 Boys antitank-rifles donated). France also sold 25-mm at-guns, but they arrived only during last weeks of the war.
>>30250338
Damn ok
"Technically you're right but.... it's not a mountain it's a large hill"
Thanks for correcting me...... on the technical details of things.
>>30246347
Just like the winter war
>>30250596
Well, technical matters make impact on practical things. For one thing Finland has never had mountain troops.
Although there is this fudd Hollywood movie about Winter War called "Ski Patrol" made in year 1940. Apparently Hollyweird failed to grasp difference in between Finland and Switzerland...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033056/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2
