The Offensive Pistol
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
The idea is a self-loading handgun that can be used as a primary weapon in place of a rifle or shotgun. The weapon that was made in response to this concept, the H&K SOCOM Mk23. It's big, bulky and doesn't even have a standard 1913 rail, but it's awsome!
I'm wondering, if there are any modern pistols that could stand up to the Mk23?
A .45 caliber, da/sa semi-auto pistol with a decocker that has a polymer frame, 5" Inch threaded barrel and a capacity of no less than 12 rounds.
The FNX-45 Tactical is a close one, but I'd trade out the manual safety for a dedicated decocker.
>>30196804
>.45 caliber
>da/sa semi-auto pistol
>decocker
>polymer frame
>5" Inch threaded barrel
>capacity of no less than 12 rounds.
FNX 45 comes to mind. also a couple other HK pistols
>>30196804
the FK Brno comes to mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqaFAf-s5cY
>>30196804
there is a reason this concept died by the early 2000s
The SIG Sauer P227 Tactical is also very close, but it's aluminum frame and heavy, loud decocker are a turnoff.
>Machine Pistols
>5.7
>Big Fuckin' Revolvers
>>30196804
>The idea is a self-loading handgun that can be used as a primary weapon in place of a rifle or shotgun.
>"offensive pistol"
Dear OP: You just bought into some of the worst marketing bullshit ever fucking written. HOOOO-EEEEEEE.
What makes a pistol "offensive" is that you trade the reliability of a revolver for the ability to quickly reload the weapon using magazines. This applies to every self-loading pistol ever fucking made. Many of them have this novel "magazine" feature, without being a huge clunky pile of shit with controls that are hard to reach.
>>30196839
This. Quit being stuck in the 90's.
Closest relevant thing to this concept is pic.
>>30196839
I'm not necessarily talking about taking a pistol to the U.S. Military for trials, I'm just a domestic gun enthusiest that wants a pistol that could be theoretically fielded as a primary weapon.
>>30196804
>A .45 caliber, da/sa semi-auto pistol with a decocker that has a polymer frame, 5" Inch threaded barrel and a capacity of no less than 12 rounds.
That's a totally arbitrary list of features that don't increase the effectiveness of a pistol for "offensive" purposes at all. If you want to make a pistol more effective for certain purposes, then make it convertible to a machine pistol and make a detachable buttstock for it. Of course, at this point, you might think that it would make more sense to just use a rifle, and you'd be right. Pistols are called "side arms" or "back up weapons" for a reason. A handgun of any kind is going to sacrifice ease of handling and firepower for size and weight.
>>30196867
>the reliability of a revolver
REEEEEEEEEEEEE
Stop repeating this "revolver is reliable" myth.
>>30196869
>holo sights
WHY ARE THEY SO FUCKING EXPENSIVE
>>30196836
neat!
>>30196890
>Stop repeating this "revolver is reliable" myth.
They are more reliable, you cock-gobbling fuckwad. You fucking god damned amadillo-blowing shitburger. I'll fucking rape your face.
I'm sorry. I'm a bit drunk. That was uncalled for. I ree at you sir. I ree most profoundly.
>>30196890
I'm not saying that this is what an offensive pistol is, I'm saying these are the features I want.
Jeez...
>>30196905
>I want these features but in a gun that is not a gigantic clunky piece of overpriced shit like a Mk. 23
Dear OP I appreciate your point but sadly I cannot offer you any alternatives for I know of none. Perhaps someone else does.
>>30196891
Because it's expensive to make hollow things strong
The idea of designing a pistol that is somehow equal to a rifle is stupid. A firearm's "offensive" capability is determined by its chambering first and foremost. So until a semiauto pistol is capable of launching at least a 55gr projectile at 2700fps from a 5" barrel, might as well carry a rifle or full auto subgun/pdw.
>>30196896
>you cock-gobbling fuckwad
>You fucking god damned amadillo-blowing shitburger
>I'll fucking rape your face
It's never pretty when someone has to be forcibly disillusioned of firmly-believed myths. Revolvers have LOTS of problems and are a lot less reliable than a semi-auto.
>>30196905
>I'm saying these are the features I want.
Can you explain why DA/SA with a decocker is somehow desirable to you? Why you need a 5" barrel? Why .45 ACP is the caliber you put on a pedestal? Why 12 rounds is your minimum acceptable magazine capacity?
>>30196896
Holy Shit, dude. Only on 4chan...
I love revolvers like you wouldn't believe, they're so goddamn sexy! But semi-autos have reached a developmental plateau and are infinitely better than revolvers.
Go ahead and carry a revolver though! Nothing I say can impede on personal preference.
>>30196921
I'm mostly speaking in terms of "rifle's too big, need something handier than that" not necessarily a pistol to replace but subsitute a true primary.
>>30196939
>true primary
What does that even mean? What kind of capability do you want to see from this theoretical firearm?
>>30196912
That's why I'm asking.
>>30196939
Just leave these kinds of discussions to people who know what the fuck they're talking about.
>>30196939
Too big for what? Concealment? Maneuvering in tight spaces? What is the difference between a primary weapon and a "true" primary weapon? Be more specific.
>>30196922
Striker-fire is okay, but DA/SA offers acouple things that striker-fire doesn't, the ability to negate a light-primer strike without simply throwing out the round.
Decocker allows me to quickly and safely put the pistol in DA so I have a long primary trigger instead of a manual safety.
5" threaded barrel for potential 100 meter muzzle velocities and mounting a suppressor.
.45 because although 9mm is great, it's perhaps not primary weapon great (not without automatic fire really) and .45 is naturally sub-sonic and mates well with a suppressor.
Finally, 12 rounds or more because I want a gun that holds a lot of bullets if I'm going into a gunfight with it.
>>30196804
A 12ga pistol that fires frag-12 munitions with enough cold loading to cover the reduction in barrel .
>mag holds four shells and can only be proplerly handled by a gorilla
>>30196962
Well, let's say I'm trying to pick only 2 or 3 weapons to take to hell and back and I can't bring my whole bloody safe of guns. I want to have a .308 as a primary weapon, but what if I need a weapon that isn't a full power rifle, but I had to leave my AR-15 at home.
>>30196983
You're Australian, right? This is all a ruse, right?!
>>30196983
>the ability to negate a light-primer strike without simply throwing out the round.
Meanwhile, a simple tap-rack-bang takes less time than click-tap-rack-bang.
>Decocker allows me to quickly and safely put the pistol in DA so I have a long primary trigger instead of a manual safety.
And why do you think that's a good thing?
>5" threaded barrel for potential 100 meter muzzle velocities and mounting a suppressor.
The fuck is "100 meter muzzle velocities"?
You can mount a SILENCER on any length barrel. Doesn't have to be 5 inches long.
>.45 because although 9mm is great, it's perhaps not primary weapon great (not without automatic fire really) and .45 is naturally sub-sonic and mates well with a suppressor.
You don't even know what you're talking about. Subsonic 147+ grain 9mm has been shown to be quieter than .45 ACP. As for what the fuck "primary weapon great" is supposed to mean, I'll let you try to define it, but I doubt you'll succeed.
>Finally, 12 rounds or more because I want a gun that holds a lot of bullets if I'm going into a gunfight with it.
Pistols like the XDm 9mm or CZ P-09 hold 19+1 rounds, so I wouldn't call 12+1 rounds "a lot of bullets." Imagine operating with an AR-15 that had cucked California 10-round magazines. 12 is only two more rounds than that.
>>30197009
Definitely underage, and definitely /v/ermin.
>>30197006
>pick only 2 or 3 weapons to take to hell and back
The fuck does that mean? People are asking you to speak clearly and give coherent definitions informed by empirical reality.
>I want to have a .308 as a primary weapon,
Why? Why not 5.56? Why not .338 Lapua? What does .308 offer that you just have to have it?
>but what if I need a weapon that isn't a full power rifle, but I had to leave my AR-15 at home.
Why would you? In what situation(s)? What the fuck are you smoking?
>>30196939
Deagle, just get a deagle, fuck the eight round capacity, if you can't kill it with at most two rounds, AT MOST, then you needed a longarm anyways
>decocker
Is there a particular reason you feel the need to stow your balls away when you hold a pistol?
>>30197032
It's stupid, but I kek'd.
>>30197030
The idea is something that isn't massive and weighs over 3 pounds, can effectively use a suppressor and can hold 12 or more rounds.
>>30197032
No, he's just too pussy to put his thumb under the hammer to decock like a real man. It's like the samurai code of drawing your sword, once the hammer is cocked the weapon must taste blood or be dishonored.
>>30197046
It's a shitty idea. There's a reason why there aren't any standing armies today that have handguns as their primary weapon.
>>30197046
Deagles aren't that big, your thews are just too small.
>>30197052
A semi-auto will re-cock the hammer until there are no more bullets in the magazine, so according to you, he'd have to kill a dozen people every time he charged the weapon.
>>30197062
Not if he puts his thumb under the trigger.
>>30197027
Not going to say 5.56 is bad, but .7.62 is better. I can use such a rifle to engage another man out 500 meters with iron sights, penetrate through steel plate body armor and I can even hunt with this rifle.
But, this "jack of all trades" concept always comes with limitations. I can't easily maneuver a battle rifle in close quarters, so what can I do? Have a pocket primary!
How does I get better pistol groupings? Cant even hit headshots at 10m
Also just curious, how do .45 FMJ and HST rounds do after going through something like a drywall, cardoor, whatever common thing bullets would need to go through in a firefight?
>>30197084
I want /v/ to leave.
>>30197052
I like the way you think, but sometimes I want to have this baby holstered and ready without leaving the hammer cocked and I don't like manual safeties.
>>30197084
>Have a pocket primary!
Jesus christ you stupid nigger kill yourself.
The only time a pistol is a primary is when you literally aren't carrying any other firearms. An "offensive pistol" will never be as capable as even the most rudimentary long gun because you have no stock to steady the firearm. It's just a fat handgun that's twice as large as it needs to be.
This is why the SEALs dumpstered it. Because you don't need a gigantic fucking handgun to defend yourself while you're on the shitter.
>>30197053
I'll say it again. Not looking for an army pistol. In the military, you have multiple guys working together who can have various weapons, carbines, shotguns, designated marksman, sniper. I'm talking, me and maybe, Maybe on other person.
>>30197062
Acceptable
>>30197113
so invest more in your rifle or their rifle. the only time you should use your pistol instead of your rifle is when you have no fucking choice, lrn2 maneuver, faggot.
>>30197112
I'm also not saying that I wish to negate the need to have a rifle altogether, just have a pistol that can hold it's own in a situation where my long-gun is too long.
Think Battlefield 4 Rocon with Sniper primary running around with his sidarms, similar concept but for different reasons.
>>30197126
Well, I'm saying that what if I find myself in a situation where I don't have a choice? I want a pistol that can make up for not having a choice! I'm not talking about cheaping out on my rifle, but can my rifle have an able companion in a handgun?
>>30197131
confirmed for /v/
>>30197113
have you shot a pistol before? And even if you have and you're good at it, it isn't a very forgiving weapon compared to a long gun if it's in the hands of someone who is new or not that well practiced in handguns.
And let's not forget all the times in law enforcement history where agents/cops with handguns try to engage a guy armed with a rifle.
>>30197144
if you are in the situation where you don't have to rely solely on your pistol you are severely fucked and having .45 instead of 9mm is not going to make up for the fact that you are a fucking retard
>>30196804
get a glock 19. put a threaded barrel in it. put a silencer on it. done.
>>30196905
the things you want are wrong and you are lying to yourself. the glock 19 does everything pistols that aren't glock 19s do while also being a glock 19.
>>30197101
That was my favorite little feature of the USP. Round chambered safety on or off and hammer decocked. Thinking about getting one, does it really have unlimited reliability and a magic recoil reducing mechanism?
>arbitrary as fuck specs
>>30196921
240 grains at 1200 puts you in the same neighborhood muzzle energy wise, so a double stacked pistol like a Glock 21 with a .460 Rowland conversion would give you 13 rounds of energy equivalent to a 5.56 carbine.
Or you could just go for a Deagle in .50AE as long as you're going for a fuckhuge pistol anyway. That's pushing a 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps. Plus with the Deagle you have multiple caliber options and barrel lengths that can be changed in seconds.
I've clocked hot 158 grain .357 Magnum at 1600 fps out if mine with a six inch barrel.
>>30197155
Yes I've fired pistols before, I'm a grown man and I've been shooting guns for sometime now. I can rapid fire a 1911 fairly easily, I'm 5'11" and of fair build.
I could see where being armed with a pistol and going up againced a guy with a rifle is a major disadvantage, but what pistol could hold it's own againced those odds.
>>30197167
The recoil reduction system helps out a bit, but it's not a night and day difference. HK claims it reduces recoil by 30%. That being said, Mark 23s and USPs are pretty comfortable, soft shooters. As far as reliability goes, they're elder god tier. You would have to go out of your way to fuck one up, and even that would be quite an effort. My Mark 23 has never had any sort of malfunctioning or deficiency. Kraut magic is real.
>>30197192
I've heard of .460 rowland, I'll look into it further.
>>30197194
>I could see where being armed with a pistol and going up againced a guy with a rifle is a major disadvantage, but what pistol could hold it's own againced those odds.
i bet you've got an IQ in the double digits, pal
>>30197209
I love that you know how to copy paste and insult me without offering the slightest bit of insight...
>>30197145
Shit, my cover's been blown. I'm 21 years old with a 9 to 5 job at an automotive factory and I play video games when I'm too broke to pay for range time and a box of ammo.
I mean, you can play some video games from time to time and still be capable of engaging in real life activities like going to a shooting range. Fuck, some people in the U.S. armed forces play video games in their barracks!
>>30197194
Manlet detected.
>>30197194
then why cripple yourself with an offensive pistol?
If you're worried about the length of a rifle in close quarter environment, do yourself a favor and draw your pistol have it ready to fire. Notice how your arms are extend out? Not go and shoulder a 16" AR and tell me just how much more it's sticking out compared to your handgun with extended arms? If you want to cheat, collapse the stock down all the way.
>>30197221
let me lay it out for you, troglodyte. pistols calibers all fucking suck. pistols are so fucking negligible in combat that the majority of soldiers are not even issued them. even people that do carry them have mostly never used them. in combat, a pistol is only a backup so that you at least have something if you are caught with your rifle down. real life isn't a videogame, idiot.
>>30197192
>>30197199
So I'm hearing glock 21 .46 conversion, mk 23, or a deagle for best-punch pistol.
>>30197201
Roughly .44 Magnum equivalent. Requires a muzzle brake which is included with the conversion kit.
>>30197199
Again, we've come a long way since the world's armies hung up their service revolvers for self loading options. Semi-auto pistols are very reliable! My P226 has well over 10,000 rounds through it, and the only time it malfunctioned is when I got a hangup while purposely demonstrating limp-wristing to a buddy of mine.
>>30197240
Am I going to have the pistol extended put in front of me constantly as if I've lost the ability to bend my arms? Point is that I can tuck it in close my chest while still being able to point snd fire.
>>30197247
Troglodite... okay...
Not replacing rifle, just subsituting it.
I'm not military, I'm a private gun owner. Partake in this theoretical concept or don't. So far, my best options are an FNX-45 or just get a USP.
Christ, some of you people...
>>30197253
Deagle in .50AE far and away hits the hardest. And MRI has introduced a couple of "lightweight" models with alloy frames that hover right in the three pound area unloaded. It's still a ridiculously large handgun, though.
>>30197286
>Not replacing rifle, just subsituting it.
>>>/v/
"When a man with .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man the pistol is a dead man."
Let's see if that's true...
>>30197307
All I can do is roll my eyes and chuckle at this point
>>30197084
You can use 5.56 for all those things as well. 'Effective' military range is 300m meters for your average pog, even slightly above average shooters can go to 500m with it easily.
>>30197194
The user not the weapon system is what decides.
>>30197300
10mm wouldn't be s bad way to go either, but unless someone here has a bone to pick because of my prefrance leaning toward a Double-Action .45 with a Suppressor, that's what I'm looking for.
>>30196983
My aforementioned prefrances and specifications.
I'm not talking down to revolvers, glocks, 9mm, 50ae etc. but holy crap did this topic derail!
>>30197341
Mk23 is awsome, what are some pistols that are similar that aren't so bulky and have an underbarrel 1913 rail that can mount a wider veriety of accessories?
That's all I'm asking.
>>30197332
Let's not pretend that 5.56 NATO isn't the bare minimum to kill a man and/or medium game.
>>30197332
Let's just take a step back and say that for whatever reason, I have my heart set on a full-sized rifle and not an intermediate carbine. Because although 5.56 is bae, .308 just kills shit deader.
End of that discussion.
Pistols anyone?
>>30197201
don't waste your money.
>>30196831
USP45T aswell
>>30197273
>Point is that I can tuck it in close my chest while still being able to point snd fire.
Ok, I guess you win. I'm sure you'll hit a moving guy with your handgun, tucked into your chest.
So how close are you thinking the bad guy would be for you to need tucking into chest to fire a handgun? Because if you think getting that fucking close to someone or even getting yourself into that sort of situation, you better have some training under your belt. There are endless videos and police reports on just how well a pistol caliber does to a determined individual if you don't hit them in critical areas. And if you're at a point where you think tucking your pistol to your chest to shoot is a viable strategy, you're out of your mind.
>>30196896
>Armadillo blowing shitburger
A novel insult successfully added to the lexicon. Thank you.
>>30197363
Now you're just throwing that goal post into the ocean.
>"I want to make pistol my primary!"
>"But anon, that's not a good idea, an intermediate caliber short barreled rifle would be world's better."
>"Ok, lets say we throw out intermediate cartridges, is pistol a good primary?"
Why even discus at this point. You've proven you are dead set on this, even when other anon point out how dumb it is. Even when actual professionals have not taken up that sort of thing.
You do you.
>>30197199
Mk23's are fuckhueg tho.
>>30197084
>5.56 can't reach 500 meters
>7.62 can penetrate steel plate body armor
what?
>>30197484
because OP want to discuss a way to use a handgun like a SMG, everybody know SBR assault rifles are way better but it's not the point of this thread
>>30197363
Just buy a Glock 19 moron. It's the gun the SEALs picked up after dumping the gun they dumped the Mark 23 for.
>>30197503
Then he can suck some cocks for a glock 18 and slap in a drum mag.
Even in confined spaces full length or short barreled rifles are better than a pistol
But here you go, a "pistol" that could actually be worth a damn in combat
>>30196804
OP's criteria: Glock 21 with GOOD extended mags and a laser/light.
Realistic criteria: MP5k/Uzi/MAC-10/S&W M76 with GOOD mags and a laser/light
>>30197845
The space marines would be proud.
>>30197845
Done, I'm getting a mid-long range 308, m1a if i'm patient, mossy mvp lr if not, and a 223 in a compact as fuck sbr with a single tandem drum and some finnicky drop rig to holster the beast
Ups 45 tactical.
I like you OP - a high capacity semi with capable of shooting hot 45 ammo (+p or 45 super even) is what I'm planning on carrying once I get my liscence. I'm not a big fan of suppressors but diff strokes for diff folks
People forget that the mk23 , the pistol that the usp's mechanism was derived from, completed the most strenuous testing for a sidearms ever
>>30197012
Confirmed for baby man who can only handle the recoil of his beloved eurotrash 9mm. "B-but hollow point technology makes 9mm as good today as 45 designed 20 years ago!'
hollow point technology does not only apply to 9mm, 45 HST penetrates more and creates a significantly larger wound cavity than its 9mm counterpart. There is no reason to accept the inferior ballistics of 9 when you can get a fairly concealable 45 with 12-13 rounds on tap
>>30197156
Yes he's a fucking retard for not carrying a rifle at all times. Having a carry piece with a lot of power available is a good idea. Glock 20,21, fnx45, usp45, etc
>>30197355
Usp 45 with a rail conversion is your best bet.
The conversion is ugly without something attached but for 60-70 bucks it's a good option.
>>30197505
The seals actually replaced the mk23 with the hk45c. Stop being a fuckass
OP is obviously underaged
>>30196916
and here I was expecting a different joke
>>30196922
>Revolvers have LOTS of problems and are a lot less reliable than a semi-auto.
That same guy from last night. Sorry I was so, uh, enthusiastic, I was a bit hammered at the time. Do you care to explain to me these "problems" that make revolvers "less reliable?" Rather than just saying it's so, Sam, and leaving it at that?
>>30196896
>guy sucks dicks
>guy sucks armadillo dicks
>let me stick my dick in his mouth
Enjoy leprosy of the cock anon!
>all this bitching and nobody posting their Mark 23's
Lets see them.
>>30200003
>dont ever limp wrist me or my son again
>>30200023
>>30200023
I honestly dont think its possible to limp wrist a Mark 23. They fucking cycle no matter what.
>>30200003
Im sorry, nice counter top btw.
>>30196896
Holy fuck, these insults are hilarious
>>30196983
Allow me to break down a few things:
>5" threaded barrel for potential 100 meter muzzle velocities and mounting a suppressor.
This sentence says, "I want higher projectile velocity."
>.45 because although 9mm is great, it's perhaps not primary weapon great (not without automatic fire really) and .45 is naturally sub-sonic and mates well with a suppressor.
This sentence says, "I want lower projectile velocity."
>Finally, 12 rounds or more because I want a gun that holds a lot of bullets if I'm going into a gunfight with it.
This sentence says, "I want to get in a gunfight with my suppressed supersubsonic handgun - where a carbine would be much more suitable - but that doesn't feel Solid Snake enough for me."
get some realistic expectations of how these tools are used, what they're used for, and why they are used for what they are used for
>>30200552
>"BUT a rifle is long as fuck and I'll knock holes into walls from walking around with one! A handgun, I can shoot at any position in any situation!"
>>30196836
TAKE MY FUCKING MONEY NOW
>>30199953
Whatever happened to that retard that ate an armadillo here?
>>30200670
>what is an SBR
>>30196896
Drunk? 15 years old? Retarded? You be the judge!
>>30200003
>>30200246
I want a Mk. 23 so bad.
>>30196836
Gun kata when?
>>30196869
No backup sights? Might as well have no sights at all
>>30196836
That half-rifle beck cartridge design
>>30201221
What's a good product to put polygonal sights on a pistol. Put a diamond flipup in my shotty and love it to death
>>30196921
.22 tcm?
>>30196891
Vortex razor for 400's is gud
>>30200889
>"No, you don't get it, an SBR is still larger than a pistol! What if I need to pull off those sick John Wick moves and shit?"
This is the entire OP argument, but with honesty applied to it. Hell, he even referenced the recon class from COD.
>>30200856
Died, presumably.
>>30196804
If you write nigger on the slide is it an offensive pistol?
>>30197230
He's saying your understanding of firearms is basically /v/ tier because you're using situations from a video game as an example of what you want to do.
I've been a battlefield fan for a long fucking time and I realize it's NOTHING like actual combat.
>>30197328
Judging by this entire fucking thread. Rolling your eyes and chuckling really IS all you can do. Well that and make shitty threads.
