I'm a newfag to /k/ and normally only browse other boards, so sorry if thats one of these threads you have everyday.
So I keep hearing from family members and friends, who serve in the police and/or military that they have no real use anymore, also reading that in the internet, and that they are completely outclassed by short-barreled automatic rifles (except for sound-supressing).
What is /k/'s opinion about that?
>>30181828
free mp5 2016!!!
>>30181828
Yes, they are.
Some people will dispute that (some people will dispute anything) but that's generally the way it is. SBR's provide better range, better wound profiles, and parts and ammo commonality.
>>30181828
this is generally accurate, everything an SMG can do some variety of short barreled rifle can do better
>>30181828
PDWs aren't outdated if you WANT a pistol caliber rifle for cheap plinking while maintaining person-stopping ability.
Realistically their great strengths are outclassed by carbine rifles like the M4 or other short barrel-rifles.
As noted, they share ammo, training, parts, etc.
Really if you have a Fuckton of m4s you don't need SMGs unless an M4 is STILL too big, but frankly an MP5 isn't exactly much smaller.
At that point you would want an MP7 or something of that size.
>>30181828
For military and police use, sure. For home defense and plinking, however, their 16" versions have a strong niche. Less muzzle flash than an SBR, less ear splitting, low recoil. The shotgun's still king for HD, but a 9mm carbine with a 30 round mag is going to be similar sized, has plenty of firepower, and is a lot more fun for a small shooter to take to the range. In general, the deadliest gun is the one that the shooter has practiced with the most, and pistol caliber carbines lend themselves to frequent use.
Now, the big downside of them is market availability. There are affordable options out there, but not a ton of variety in the low price markets. Basically Marlin Camp carbines (9mm and .45), Kel-Tec Sub 2000s (9mm or .40), Hi-Point carbines (9mm, .40, .45), Ruger PCs, and the JRCarbine. If you're willing to go over $500 for what's usually a range toy, options open up.
>>30181882
>At that point you would want an MP7 or something of that size.
Even then, by the time you hit a size limitation that severe, you're faced with having to seriously compromise your firepower. Practical applications are severely limited. Pic is an LAPD motorcycle cop.
>>30181828
They're useful indoors and in situations requiring stealth.
>>30181828
I would argue that they still have a lot of use in a police role, especially as a very lightweight patrol weapon for storage in vehicles. The smaller caliber means you would also have less risk of overpenetration.
the typical MP5 style submachine gun (full size barrel and fixed or folding stock) as a duty weapon has been pretty much been outmoded by the compact carbine.
there is a still a specific niche to be filled by the PDW type gun, which is what they were specifically designed for: compact, readily concealable firepower beyond that of a duty pistol. they aren't meant to be direct engagement weapons, something to secure a scene or cover an exfil, not slot floppies at 200 yards.
would a suppressed SMG shooting sub sonic frangible ammo, perform better than an intermediate caliber rifle that is also suppressed and shooting sub sonic frangible ammo, in the role of providing accurate, quieter, rapid fire that won't over penetrate?
>>30182145
Elon musk & brad Pitt love child.
>>30182026
>LAPD has MP7s
Cops get all the cool shit. Fuck em
>>30181828
What part of putting fully automatic fire on a target in a lighter and more compact package than a rifle is obsolete, exactly?
>>30182198
Well, sure. If the bullets are going the same speed, the heavier, higher caliber one will always be deadlier. So, I guess MP-5s would still win over M-4s in the "Quiet murder under 50 yards" category. Issue is, you lose the ability to slap in supersonic rounds and have long reach/high power again. A carbine allows you that transition.
Reduced muzzle blast over an SBR is the big factor, along with a little-mentioned reduction in risk in event of a friendly-fire incident (9x19 won't punch through body armour very well, 5.56 will). They're a much better option for SWAT and other guys working at across-the-room distances than ARs, but not as versatile. You can mostly thank the blurring of military and police thanks to the "War on Terror" for most American LE departments using ARs instead of say, MP5s. DHS likes to throw everything from surplus M4s to MRAPs at local departments, who aren't going to turn down free shit (and disconcertingly, are increasingly staffed by ex-military as well).
>>30181959
> picture of a gun with wood furniture
> the shotgun is still k ing of HD
Fudd detected
>>30181828
Pistol caliber carbines are mostly outmoded by intermediate caliber carbines, yes. 300BLK, for example, offers both StupidQuiet™ operation and moderate range supersonic performance in a traditional AR-15 package.
The MP5 is sexy but dumb as a bag of rocks.
The P90 is still pretty relevant with 50 rounds of subsonic 63 grain .224 in a platform under 20" OAL. They also suppress very well.
>>30182513
I don't care if he's Elmer himself, >>30181959 is smexy as fuck.
What is it?
Well what else would you arm your vehicle crews and support staff with?
>>30181880
Besides being suppressed, concealable, ammo compatible with side arm, have nicer recoil, etc.
Yeah totally outclassed in every regard
>>30181828
The only people that believe this are actual armchair mall ninja bitches OP.
They want to justify their 200 dollar tax stamp for their shitty pistol they got off of classic firearms for 400 dollars.
Yes, sbr's are nicer in the field but going door to door (the intended purpose of an smg) an SMG will be a better choice.
>>30182518
>subsonic 5.7x28
WHY. That's the opposite of what it's supposed to do, which is to say go really fucking fast to penetrate armor.
>>30182766
Depends on the situation. For a SWAT team clearing a building with possible civilians inside subsonic is the better option. For military support staff dealing with massed Soviet paratroopers then go with the full power shit.
IMO the problem with OP's question is that he didn't really define 'PDW'. His picture is a submachine gun which doesn't really fill the same role in ideal circumstances.
>>30182648
It's a Marlin Camp Carbine. Unfortunately they've been discontinued in the 90's. All the ones I can find are pretty beat up, but then again people aren't exactly in a hurry to sell them either
>>30182648
Marlin Camp 9. 9mm blowback semi-auto that eats from S&W 59 series mags. The design had a few quality issues that lead to them being rate, and the design was eventually discontinued. All it needed was 1 spring replaced and a replacement recoil buffer (pictures). The original was nylon, and broken down by gun cleaning chemicals.
>>30182899
*rare, not rate. Also available in .45, from 1911 mags.
I wanted an SBR 9mm for home defense. An SBR AR-15 just didnt appeal to me due to muzzle blast with a 7.5" barrel.
For my application, it isnt obsolete, and there is plenty of demand for 9mm carbines.
>>30182974
Jesus Fucking Murphy! That integrally suppressed .45
>>30182026
>>30182223
Not LAPD. That pic is from the quarry shooting in Cupertino. If remember its SCC Sheriffs Department or Sunnyvale Public Safety.
They're pretty clearly outclassed by SBR's, but PDW's serve a practical role for when discretion is vital.
>>30182974
Fuck where do I get one? It's like a modern de Lisle
>>30183725
First you have to find one, then you send it to a custom shop and spend a LOT of money.
>>30182974
>sub sonic 45acp
Boy I bet that drops like the Greek gpd
>>30185010
Easy there, Aristotle.
>>30185010
.45 ACP is inherently subsonic to begin with, that's what makes it a great suppressor round.
>>30182088
This.
>>30182272
>If the bullets are going the same speed, the heavier, higher caliber one will always be deadlier.
Not necessarily, projectile composition is also a big factor. 55 gr m193 5.56 is more "deadly" than 123gr M43 7.62x39. (Sure, 7.62x39 is about 2/3rd the velocity, but also over twice the weight).
>>30182751
My local swat team uses ARs with very short (8 to 11 inch) barrels. They don't trust anything less than .223 to pierce body armor.
>>30181828
SMGs and PDWs are better when the user is trying to be low key.
>>30185010
>sub sonic 45acp
>he doesn't know how fast fuddy fahve goes
>>30181828
for military use, yes.
for police use, hell no.
Cops still need something not able to punch through body armor, and something not going through walls and killing Daneesha just looking after her kid in the next room.
>>30182974
Yes please
>>30181828
A .50 AE SMG would be as good as any 7.62x39 SBR.
>>30182513
He's right though. I know you're a tactical operator who's going to repel in on a threat firing an m2 from the hip, but what other inexpensive and maneuverable firearm do you know can put as much lead downrange as 8 shots of 0000 buckshot?
Unless you're fighting off a rival (or Muslim) gang invasion where you have 5+ targets, you're trying to drop a body as quickly as possible. If you have that situation on your hands then you're moving away from the HD category and more into the local revolutionary category in which case you'd definitely want something closer to an AR or AK pattern rifle.
>>30182088
Smaller Caliber, less risk of over-penetration... nice meme's
.22LR will go through 10 sheets of drywall out of a silenced pistol. With a .22LR rifle its upto 11 sheets of drywall.
Good luck getting a "smaller caliber" for less risk of penetration for self defense.
>>30181959
excellent post fellow PCC friend
>>30181828
>I'm a newfag
Yes you are. Your topic is poor. Delete your thread and lurk more.
>>30181828
For military purposes, subguns are more or less obsolete, they'll likely not see use on the modern battlefield by regular forces again.
That's not to say they are obsolete as weapons completely, I can think of many good purposes for them (the NFA kills this though).
PDW is just a fancy marketing term for a subgun.
>>30182751
>Besides being suppressed
.300BLK can be suppressed to hearing safe levels while still cycling reliably.
That said, 9mm Luger is a very good performer with subsonic ammunition, quiet too.
>concealable
Fair enough, you can make an AR-15 pretty small, but not as compact (or light!) as a TMP/MP9, or that new sexiness from B&T, the APC9
>ammo compatible with side arm
More of a niche thing in this day and age, but if it's something that's important to you, that's a selling point.
>have nicer recoil, etc.
Debatable, if you compare:
>Uzi; open-bolt blowback, generally heavy bolt and body, nicely balanced, gentle rate of fire
>TMP/MP9; lighter and smaller body, but works on locked breech and short recoil through rotating barrel
>Mk.18 carbine; gas operated, recoil buffer, rotating bolt, relatively weighty
... they should all be quite easy to control under rapid fire.
>>30182974
Sick!
>>30185042
True, though subsonic 9mm suppresses even better.
>>30181828
Obsolete? No. They have all been surpassed by the P90. Only one you need.
>>30187354
>5.7x28mm performance out of a 8" barrel
Put a 16" barrel on that and now we're talking
PDWs definitely fill a niche between pistols and carbines. Full-size SMGs are basically considered obsolete by contemporary tactical minds. Personally I think a larger PDW like a P90 fits the intended role of a service weapon for vehicle crews better than most carbines, but I also think it's sort of like getting autistic over service handguns- the advantage of having parts compatibility between infantry weapons and vehicle crew weapons outweighs the tiny advantage a PDW might have in terms of size/ammo capacity/weight.
The biggest advantage of a PDW outside of the military is that they can be carried or transported more discreetly than a short barreled rifle, but offer substantially better firepower than a handgun.
Something like an MP5K, MP7, Skorpion, or B&T MP9 can be transported in a briefcase or book bag, or out of sight in a car or truck, unlike a short barreled rifle, and offers controllable automatic fire at close range and the advantage of a stock for more accurate long range fire.
>>30187369
>10"
And for it's intended purpose, that's plenty.
>>30181959
>The shotgun's still king for HD
Incorrect
>>30181849
>5.56 SBRs
>>30181849
>better range
no
>better wound channels
proof?
>*parts* and ammo commonality
no
>>30187678
What meme calibre would you prefer over 5.56 for an SBR?
>>30187692
>parts and ammo commonality
How is that wrong? A Mk18 AR has more parts and ammo commonality with the M16 and M4s everyone else is using than an MP5 ever would.
>>30187755
obviously .300 Blackout
>>30187755
.50bmg
The only real use SMGs have in this day and age is by SWAT guys in confined urban environments. The MP5 is probably the "pinnacle" of their development in this regard.
PDWs are sexy as a qt asian trap, but still a niche thing (like qt asian traps).
But how effective is 223 under, say, 11"?
>>30187354
Belgian Tokarev.
Had the luck to shot a MP5 yesterday.
quite fun and accurate and the full auto was very comfortable to handle
was much lighter than i thought
>>30182824
I think he means that the 5.7 is designed specifically to be armor piercing.
>>30187949
.50 blackout machinegun?
>did SBRs make PDWs obsolete?
Did hamburgers make ground beef obsolete?
How loud is supersonic 300BO when there's a suppressor on it?
>>30185902
>nice meme's
Nice grammar
You do realize that 22lr is a tiny round that penetrates well because of its small frontal surface area right? I tend to doubt that the guy you're replying to meant "22lr" by "smaller caliber. Hell, you should have gone full meme-lord and said something about how 17HMR can penetrate 30 bank vaults out of a suppressed blowdart gun.
Most pistol rounds such as 9mm and 45ACP have the frontal area of the average tumblr feminist, meaning they slow down quicker once they make impact.
>>30187755
.300BLK has become the obvious choice today, it makes up for the .223's shortcomings in short barrels, and also allows for a quiet weapon if necessary.
.223 is better for full length rifles though.
>>30188114
It still is a niche that needs to filled adequately though. The 2014 Sydney siege demonstrated the potential collateral damage of using intermediate calibers within confined spaces. The ar-15 platform is not the silver bullet for every active shooter/hostage rescue mission. Even with sbrs, high velocity shrapnel is a factor that needs to be taken account for SWAT and CT personnel.
>>30188303
Austrailia ruins everything.
>>30188273
Does 300BLK mitigate shrapnel ricochets off hard surfaces though?
>>30188303
Its less a concern of intermediate calibers, and more a concern of proper bullet design.
>>30188329
So more of the tendency of the 5.56 bullet to yaw and fragment on impact? So it's either 300 BLK or .308. Wouldn't recoil impulse be too significant compared to 9mm?
>>30181959
Plus, the Hi Points in 9mm have the 20 round Redball mags (not the same as the shitty Promags) and the .45 version can be easily modified using a kit to accept readily available 1911 mags, and from what I've heard the 15 round extendo clips work like a charm. The 28 round Korean drums not so much, they work about as well as they do in a standard 1911: which is to say, kinda sucky.
>>30187949
LONG LIVE THE GOD EMPEROR
>>30187755
7.62 NATO.
>>30188555
Worthless in a barrel shorter than 16", ideally you want at least 18" for better performance.
It does not a short and handy carbine make.
>>30188472
So how well do the RedBall mags work?
Are they worth it for poorfags for their carbines?
I'll say that a 9mm rifle with 20rd mags for the less fortunate isn't that shabby of a weapon, I'm glad there's alternatives to the abysmal ProMags
>>30187354
mp7 got btfo but is still the one US purchases because lobbying
that's how democracy works
>>30188567
Seriously? You would think that the bullet is big enough that it would still pack a decent punch. Shit. Why does the PTR91 PDW even exist then?
>>30188623
Addendum: how is 7.62x39 out of an 8in barrel? The PTR32 PDW looks decent.
>>30187380
As an SBR klobb owner, I disagree. Its an accurate semi auto handgun, but the stock does not help at all. Only time I have seen the stock be useful is in videos of people with full auto klobbs. When they shot FA without it, they pretty much wastes bullets and only got a few hits on paper. With the stock they were able to control it much better but its not exactly precise. From shooting mine, the stock actually makes it harder to shoot accurately. The way the sights are, your face is way too close to focus on them correctly when shouldered.
That being said, it is stupidly accurate as a pistol, in semi auto. I've won the "who can hit that book sized steel plate the most" game from 50+ yards, no contest.
Plus it fits in a shoulder holster. I don't know where this post went but I love my klobb.
>>30181849
Brit police use thr partly becouse of low penetration. Less chance of a bullet going through a wall and killing someone in a house next door.
>>30182088
>>30185054
>>30185216
>>30188248
Pistol caliber rounds, generally, will penetrate intermediate barriers like dry wall or plywood and maintain their energy better than regular non-AP 5.56. Doubly so for non-.mil defensive ammo like TAP.
Remember that, barring AP, the 5.56 spitzer type projectile is designed to dump as much energy as possible when it hits a target.
With the exception of frangible or very cheaply made hollow points, pistol caliber projectiles are designed to maximize penetration depth for their wounding capability.
>>30182256
A 12 inch barrel AR is like 2 inches longer than a MP5 and weighs the same depending on the amount of tacticool mounted on the AR,.
>>30188732
Oddly enough, 7.62x39 doesn't suffer fall-off from reduced barrel length as much as most other rifle rounds do. Depending on the load, it maintains a higher percentage of its performance compared to the standard 16 inch barrel than the 5.56, 5.45 or 7.62x51.
I'm not saying it doesn't suffer from it, but it suffers less than most other rounds.
>>30188828
Good to know. Thanks.
>>30188187
Depends on the suppressor, but given the same Db reduction, it'd sound the same as just about any other supersonic rifle round fired from a suppressed weapon.
>>30188623
>Why does the PTR91 PDW even exist then?
For fun, the gun is very loud, and makes big muzzleflashes, shooting a gun like that in the dark of night is actually very visually impressive.
It's not that it "doesn't work" out of a sub 16" barrel, it's that you might as well be shooting 7.62x39mm out of anything shorter for what the ballistics are worth.
7.62x51mm NATO, is sort of similar to 5.56x45mm NATO, in that both of them have speed as their primary attribute, and speed based bullets don't really do their best out of really short barrels, you get much less range and the loss of power is great, while being much louder and brighter,
>>30188732
>how is 7.62x39 out of an 8in barrel
As the other guy said, not that bad, the bullet itself is pretty weighty, which makes up for it.
The .300BLK is designed for a similar approach, using .308 projectiles, you get a relatively weighty bullet that still performs well out of shorter barrels, the upside is that it fits in regular 5.56x45mm guns with just swapping a barrel (bolt, magazines and receivers are the same), and the subsonics will still cycle in an automatic, whilst subsonic loadings of 7.62x39mm typically won't cycle very well on their own (which is why you don't see them so much)
>>30188828
I would say that 5.56 and 5.45 still fall relatively within the realms of acceptable with a 14.5" barrel, with the right loads, but a 16", or even better, 20" would give you greatest performance indeed.
The AKS-74u basically never got any love because of the abysmal performance of 5.45mm out of the shorty little barrel, most regular and special forces preferring the range and power of the full length AKS-74, supposedly, aircrew would sometimes get it as a PDW
Now, I know that there was never an official AKMSU, but I imagine special forces must have gotten their share of specialized guns
>tfw no MP7
>>30182026
>police officer
>armed with a weapon where you need to mag dump in order to effectively take down threats
don't see how this will end badly in a crowded public space at all...nope can't think of one.
>>30182170
People seem to gloss over the fact that SBR's, especially ones that get down to the 10" range like the MK18 have a SHITLOAD of concussion and flash, they just look at the raw numbers and deem it better.
>>30191342
Not a problem with .300BLK and a silencer.
>>30187692
>disagree with everything he said
>offers no proof as to why
Ok.
>>30185121
Not that I disagree, but he did say
>Same velocity
Especially since 123gr 7.62 is not only twice as heavy 55 gr 5.56 but almost 50% wider . If they are both subsonic, the heavier bullets will carry the highest energy.
>>30181959
cx4
>>30192020
Actually pretty good, especially since Beretta and MecGar mags generally are quite solid, a couple of 20 or 30 round mags and you have a pretty good allaround carbine.
Also they look so fly with those shrouds on the skinny barrel there.
>>30188796
>A 12 inch barrel AR is like 2 inches longer than a MP5 and weighs the same depending on the amount of tacticool mounted on the AR,.
An MP5 is bigger than most modern SMGs, and with a collapsible stock, it is vastly smaller than an M4
>>30192127
Thats because most modern SMGs are machine pistols, which are going to be far less useful than a short AR for anything other than CP work. The full size SMG is effectively dead aside from a few stragglers like the MPX and CZ Evo, which have seen far more success as Civilian PCCs than SMGs.
>>30192127
>M4
>12" barrel
The M4 features a 14.5" barrel.
With the Mk.18 upper it's down to about 10.3", which is pretty short for an AR.
Thoughts?
The P90 will never be obsolete to anything in its small niche.
SMGs however are nixed.
>>30192545
Rather good, but also kind of too expensive.
>>30192606
I still wanna buy one. Or least I would if I could buy the full auto version.
>>30192545
I'd buy one if I had the money. Take it, SBR it, cut and thread the barrel to 4 inches, leave the stock handguard, and then suppress it. Be fun that way, I think.
I'd still suck a cock an mp5/10
>>30181828
SMGs probably, PDWs probably not
>>30193068
yes
>>30181828
For anything with a barrel shorter than 10" or so rifle rounds will start leaving wounds more comparable to pistol ammunition (causing damage inches away from the bullet with fragmentation without ridiculously expensive bullets is no longer possible), but will still have flatter trajectories past 100 yards and will generally be able to penetrate body armor designed to stop pistol ammunition without using special AP ammunition (unless you're using subsonic rifle ammunition) if you need those capabilities. Rifles with barrels 10" or shorter also have the downside of having larger amounts of muzzle blast (though it could be reduced some by using a load optimized for the shorter barrel). Currently the only area that SMGs can really beat short barreled rifles is for compactness in a non bullpup configuration (in bullpup configuration a 10" barrel rifle can be made about as short as you could comfortably use). Also for the average person concerned with how much going to the range costs, pistol ammunition will generally cost less.
>>30187291
Uzi's have godaweful muzzle climb. Their recoil is just more violent than it needs to be. They are equally reliable in adverse conditions as the MP5, but other than that, they lose hard.
>Ergos
>Controllability
>Weight
>Accessories
>Sexyness
They aren't just out of their league. They're playing a different goddamn sport.
>>30191749
>Silencer adds six inches to the barrel.
>>30192110
Are they still made?
>>30195104
>Uzi's have godaweful muzzle climb
Sauce on that claim? I've heard from multiple people who have fired an Uzi that the bolt goes back forward with enough force to bring the gun back on target making it extremely easy to control. Unless you're talking about the Mini Uzi or Micro Uzi without specifying.
>>30181849
This, but there are exceptions to this.
Auto-pistol like SMG's (MAC-10, MP9, Uzi) are a lot more compact than a full-auto SBR AR-15, the magazines are more compact, etc. It could make a good secret weapon, or secondary. But in most cases, SBR's are probably better.
>but that doesn't mean SMG's are obsolete on the gun range, because full auto = fun and fun is overpowered
>>30188749
Well, whether you find it more accurate in semi with the stock or without, the advantage is that it provides accurate full auto. At pistol or self defense range that's really overwhelmingly better firepower than if they person in question were carrying a service handgun, even if you're looking at something like a Skorpion in .32ACP.
>>30191326
I think the average cop is probably going to be a better shot with a PDW or pistol cal carbine than they are with a handgun with a 12lb trigger pull. Personally I'd feel more comfortable with cops carrying semi-auto PDWs than handguns purely because it takes a lot more practice to shoot a handgun accurately.
>>30188749
Pics of the klobb in aforementioned shoulder holster pls
>>30182974
Do they have this in 357?
I want to make a modern de Lisle rifle.
>>30195476
>because it takes a lot more practice to shoot a handgun accurately.
I am still nerve wrecked over my shitty shooting with handguns. I wish I had the cash and time to sink into practicing.
>>30188329
The problem was 5.56 round ricocheting of the building granite and stone walls, resulted in more people being shoot be the police storming the building then the hostage taker himself. Coincidentally after being criticized for this by a number of ex sf members cops started using UMPs more heavily in urban raids.
That said is there a better weapon then the UMP for short range urban use against unarmored targets?
>>30188758
Also brit cops have been using it since the 70s when there weren't any other options. So it's the weapon everyone is familiar with and all their training and tactics are based around. Also theirs zero demand to find a replacement that would likely take years and cost millions of pounds no real advantage.
>>30195104
>Uzi's have godaweful muzzle climb
The Micro Uzi maybe, but the open-bolt operation (with the large and heavy bolt), and heavy weight of the full sized one generally makes for a very controllable weapon.
>>30195183
I believe so.
>>30195172
If all you're worried about is concussive blast, you don't need a large silencer to make it all quiet, you just need something to moderate and dampen the blast, see the old Colt Moderator, it's a flash-hider, but it also has a series of baffles inside to mitigate the loud bang of .223 from short barrels.
>>30182518
>The P90 is still pretty relevant with 50 rounds of subsonic 63 grain .224 in a platform under 20" OAL. They also suppress very well.
P90 is outclassed heavily by SBR.
Because P90 is designed to take down an enemy with a burst of 5-6 bullets
Nobody wants to use it because you have to burst 5-6 bullets of overpenetrating rounds in an area surrounded by civillians and easily penetratable walls. And you need to keep that burst on target, which is not easy.
An SBR downs a target in 1-2 easily controllable shots with better wound profile and are just as capable of punching through armor. It also removes the risk of missing because you don't have to go full giggle.
Some PD officer wrote a piece on it, said they tried p90 for a bit, found it insanely risky and dropped it insatntly. They now collect dust in the armory while they run around with ar15's
I have come here to say that I love short barreled high caliber riffles with full stock.
It's their stupidity that gets me hard.
>>30187369
PS90 has a 14" i think. I wanted one, but not a semi auto. Seems like a truly neutered gun.
>>30197588
Whats stupid about it? It would be stupider without the stock, even more uncontrollable.
>>30197649
because it doesn't have enough barrel to propell the large cartridge properly
>>30185042
Actually no. 45 ACP is so low in pressure that it is extremely difficult to get baffle stacks to function well. That's why everybody's 9mm cans work well, but only a few companies 45 cans can be shot dry and are hearing safe.
I will concede that 45 is nice cause you don't have to go out and get a second type of ammo if you want maximum quietness.
>>30197662
At the ranges it is intended to be used, that's p much irrelevant. Wasteful and inefficient sure, but not a factor in its use.
>>30197684
>that it is extremely difficult to get baffle stacks to function well
Source? I've never heard of this
>>30197692
>>30197649
It has no intended range, it's not a practical gun, it's literally designed to be loud and bright, it's like the next step beyond the AK pistol.
Something like pic related would be a worse performer than a proper MP5k
>>30197873
>It has no intended range, it's not a practical gun
I don't know about that. Seems like it would be an ideal door gun for a trucker. Its not as if .308 at close range is going to kill people less just because the round isn't getting optimal spin.
>>30197039
The De Lisle was chambered in .45 ACP.
Will an AK conical muzzle device fit a PTR PDW barrel?
>>30197588
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15yT9tpqg2A
>>30197900
>Seems like it would be an ideal door gun for a trucker.
Not really.
>Its not as if .308 at close range is going to kill people less just because the round isn't getting optimal spin
It's going to give subpar performance, what is that, 4 inches of barrel? You'll get maybe .38 Special tier ballistics here, with a massive muzzleflash and an ungodly loud bang, which can be disorienting as fuck in the dark or firing from inside a car, the thing is also fucking heavy.
An MP5 pistol would literally be better in every way than a G3 pistol when it comes to defense or general practicality, better ballistics, WAY less concussion and noise, more capacity lighter weight, better accuracy.
An AK pistol on 7.62x39mm or an AR pistol in .300BLK will likewise also perform much better than a G3 or FAL pistol, though a good flash-hider is in order, and if it was legally possible, a stock would be mandatory for practicality.
why is it always a "newfag" asking the same fucking question every week ?
>>30197039
There's the Ruger M77/357
Using a silencer, and FMJ .38 Specials, you could make a pretty quiet gun.
Magazines are only 5rds though, and sometimes they can be a little finicky (call up their customer service if you can't get them to behave), but for a light powered rifle it's not bad, especially considering how cheap .357 and .38 is
>>30188758
>a bullet going through a wall and killing someone in a house next door.
ok that London is now Pakistan but last time I was there bong's houses were made of concrete.
Were officers equipped with 20mm hand guns?
>>30182513
>he doesn't like the aesthetics of wood guns
>he thinks a rifle is good for hd
Kek
>>30197564
>Some PD officer wrote a piece on it
Sauce please
>>30197564
>and you need to keep that burst on target, which is not easy
Confirmed for hungry skellington or never being in the same room as a P90. The gun kicks like a gnat fart and staying on target with one is easy. The biggest downside to shooting a P90 is the trigger. It sucks. Other than that, and reloading, the gun is fine.
>overpenetration
Just use bluetips then.
>no sauce
Real convincing.
>>30182314
Not just War on Terror-- two other trends contributed to this.
SWAT teams have proliferated. Every jurisdiction wants one because they're tacticool and budget $$$, and because they want to handle those once-in-five-years events where you really need one. But then you don't want the SWAT team sitting idle all the time, do you? So they end up serving warrants and doing raids on homes for suspected non-violent offenses. Then the prosecutors realized that throwing a SWAT team on someone was a nasty intimidation tactic and they didn't even have to bring charges later to do it. Fuck up someone's house, threaten their kids, shoot their dogs, and it's all cool because it's due process. And who do people blame, the prosecutor they can't see or the LEOs they do?
The other thing was that in the 90's they changed the milsurp rules. So basically now the military has all this crap left over from Iraq and Afghanistan. They can't sell it to civilians, so they mostly just give it away to police.
It's a classic case of unintended consequences. Nobody cackled menacingly in their office in DC thinking up ways to tyrannize the populace. But is was a natural consequence of seemingly smart/compassionate decisions.
>>30198502
Yeah the idiom "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" is generally true. Although I can't in good conscience say that the people that made the decision could have made a more informed decision.
>>30198623
>never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity
You're missing the last bit of Hanlon's Razor there, Anon.
>at least, not the first time.
>>30198623
Well, if you're a police chief, you have to fight for your people and your budget, right? The money thrown into a SWAT team can be used to raise proficiency and training across the board. That means fewer dead/disabled officers, and oh by the way often fewer dead/disabled suspects. Often the politicians will cut checks for stuff that they'd never clear for the department as a whole-- regardless of how useful it is or how many lives it will save-- if you throw the label "SWAT" on it.
And every few years, some situation pops up where the SWAT capability really does make the difference. Or, at least, where you might argue that it MIGHT have made a difference in a case where it wasn't available and it ended in a tragedy.
The decision to cut off milsurp made less sense, but remember Clinton's people hate guns and hate the military and anything that looks or might construed as being "tactical". So from their point of view they're protecting ordinary Americans from the threat of military-grade canteens and entrenching tools.
I know a guy who owns several demilitarized armored vehicles. The local government is constantly harassing him to get him to get rid of them. So far, the judges have ruled in his favor, but basically it boils down to "military stuff = school shootings" even if it's an unarmed personnel transport.
So yeah, good intentions gone bad, and stupidity gone stupid. Classic combination.
>>30181828
Military? Yes. The M4 does job just as well, ignoring situations that rely on stealth and maybe really tight quarters.
Police? No. The MP5, while it's rounds can still easily penetrate dry wall, has a reduced chance of flying off and hitting someone. Not to mention tight quarter operations. Furthermore, the police rarely encounter guys wearing efficient body armor.
>>30181828
I just came by to say that if more of our regular posters posted board relevant, discussion provoking questions laid out simply and without baiting it would be a much better place. Keep on keeping on newfriend.
To keep this post relevant, I don't know much about SMGs or PDWs, I've never used one in any capacity past shooting an occasional one at the range. Both the Army and the Security (Nuclear Site protection) company I was part of did not have any. We carried 16" M4's all tacticooled up, and had one or two long guns for the guys in the towers that I never got to screw around with.
>>30199984
Honestly the quality of both OP and the responses was very, very high. And it's summer, too!
>>30199984
How intensive is/was training for Nuclear Protection? I know even through medical background that the NRC is not one to fuck around with safety.
>>30181828
SMG's will always have a place because of ammunition supply and the idea the 5.7 brings around which is limiting civilian casualties with fragmenting ammunition.
Too much penetration can be a bad thing sometimes. In a civilian zone where shotguns are not king for power to lacking penetration values because of the spread. A burst fire trained individual can do just the same work with long range potential in single fire mode.
We all know we just like dakka.
