Are there cases of modern day PTSD as severe as what stemmed from WW1? Does modern day PTSD affect soldiers in a different way than the soldiers from the WW1 era? If it is not as severe today, is this because of social conditioning or have combat situations become moderate in comparison?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faM42KMeB5Q
>>30148317
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4Pd527GN48
>>30148317
Combat situations are easy today, just pop pop pop in the general direction of the enemy then call in air support.
Those men didn't have access to an iota of the mental healthcare or medication that soldiers have today.
>>30148462
summer is here, the post
>>30148464
This
Most people didn't even consider PTSD to be a real thing back then.
>>30148464
This tbqh
Also, shell shock victims were viewed as being weak or mentally broken in some sort of way. They really had no idea what PTSD is how it works in the early twentieth century
>>30148464
they were told to suck it up and be a man
nowadays dudes come home with "PTSD" because they were involved in a firefight from a kebab popping off an AK 1200 meters away
>>30148462
>I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm a huge faggot
>>30148464
>>30148478
>>30148482
PTSD survivor here. my life is back on track these days and it's thanks to the fact that PTSD is taken seriously. I was able to get the help I needed. Many other soldiers still, to this day, do not, and end up homeless or worse. Those poor bastards back in WWI were pretty well screwed once they got back home.
>>30148493
Don't cut yourself on that edge.
>>30148493
I'm sure you're the expert.
>>30148493
>they were told to suck it up and be a man
And the result of that was coming back home as absolutely fucking broken men reliving the war every time they closed their eyes, in some instance it was so bad they couldn't even function in society.
Yeah, telling them to suck it up was definitely the solution.
>>30148533
>>30148505
>>30148503
Not promoting it
Not denying it
>>30148451
is that music meant just to inspire terror?
>>30148451
This guy's film was what led me to watch the documentary I posted in the OP. He really captures the horror from trench warfare well.
>>30148482
Were there PTSD cases from wars before WW1, like the Civil War? It seems like WW1 was the first real eye opener to mental health issues stemming from combat.
I wonder how people delt with PTSD and the victims of PTSD in times like the Medieval Period or if the life expectancy back then played in to why it was never an issue.
>>30148462
this
mil-fags will try to deny it but its true.
Modern day US soldiers dont have to deal with constant barrages of enemy artillery, gas attacks, human wave attacks, living in a trench with rotting corpses all around. The fact that they have a better chance than not of being maimed or killed and the list goes on.
Modern war is comfy as fuck compared to how things were back in WW1 and 2
Then there is the fact that you are set for life after you get out of the military, healthcare, special credit unions, money for school, literally everyplace gives some sort of special treatment to anyone in the military. You could have been a fucking cook in the Air Force reserves and you will still get far better benefits than anyone ever did from WW1 or 2.
>>30148482
On the contrary, it was thought that the force of nearby exploding projectiles was causing some unseen physical damage to the men that resulted in their behavior. The problem was misdiagnosis, not contempt.
>>30149002
This. I honestly laugh at veterans with "PTSD" do they even know they were involved in basically the equivalent of partisan sweep operations? Not full on war.
>>30149045
>>30148617
There are accounts of PTSD like symptoms going back to the Middle Ages and beyond.
In the Middle Ages though society was far more violent and wars were usually much shorter. Most 'fighting' consisted of raids and sieges as well. So people were not exposed to the same level of stress and were better equipped to handle it by default.
>>30149045
So my PTSD from being shot and killing the guy who tried to carjack me last year isnt real because it wasnt war?
Shit ive been drinking heavily and hitting my woman for nothing all this time....
Youre a faggot by the way.
>>30148617
>>30149106
Also being injured makes you much more likely to develop PTSD but in the past you were less likely to survive long enough to worry about that sort of thing if you got hurt in battle due to the standards of medical care.
>>30148317
15% of British Army was affected and no one thought to work on preventing it? The army was cool with their men being decimated by psychological trauma as long as it was quickly treatable. Fucking insane.
>>30149002
>Modern war is comfy as fuck compared to how things were back in WW1 and 2
Which has been identified as part of the problem.
If someone saw combat on Iwo Jima, they got to spend the next month on a boat decompressing with peers that had also been through the exact same thing. In spite of this PTSD still existed in a major way.
Compare that to Vietnam where someone could be in brutal combat one day, and flown to Thailand or Australia for RNR the next day, and expected to instantly suppress the stress and impulse to kill other people. I hope you can imagine how hard that could fuck a person up.
Things are a little better today than Vietnam because we know a lot more about how to deal with it (ie: post-deployment decompression centers), but you can't compare the two because technology has come so far. A soldier could be hit by an IED and chatting with loved ones over skype on the same day.
If you walked out the front door and someone tried to kill you, that would be a life-defining event. Getting shot at, even on a weekly or monthly basis, in any capacity, is not "easy" just because other people in another lifetime had it harder. Easy is posting on 4chan from your moms basement.
>>30149120
>ywn have a woman that would stay with you if your beat her and are alcoholic
>>30149120
40 years ago getting shot and killing the car jacker wouldve been a funny story to tell at the bar
i think its the influence of liberals on society
not sayin ur a pussy or anything but the psyche of our society has been altered to be too navel gazing on wrongs done to them
>>30149164
Great post
iirc, shell shock had severe neurological symptoms accompanying it that was not seen in any other war. Frozen limbs, hysterical blindness, severe shaking and tics, inability to walk, ect.
I remember reading that doctors (not psychiatrists) thought it had a lot to do with the concussions and over pressure of extended heavy shelling
>>30149185
OP's video says it was thought to be a "molecular disturbance in their nervous system" originally but was quickly realized to be psychological problems manifesting themselves through physical symptoms.
>>30148617
PTSD goes as far back as the Trojan war.
In the Odyssey it is fairly obvious that some of the characters are, well broken.
It's worth noting that after the civil war, etc., PTSD was totally a thing.
But people back then took opiates and drank A LOT.
Think of your standard frat boy. Drinks a lot, gets drunk a lot, etc.
That was basically our ancestors every fucking night.
People talk about drinking like its bad. That is NEW in the west. Before prohibition getting tipsy was the standard state of affairs for an evening.
People mostly dealt with PTSD the same way many do today- you drink and only talk about it with other people with similar stories.
>>30149170
Are you insane?
Being SHOT and having to kill a man has always been something that can fuck people up.
>>30149217
I should note, battle reports are often described as "terrible" or something. Back then people weren't as hyperbolic. If a 12th century writer describes a post-crusader/Saracen clash as "terrible" we are talking hacked limbs, people crying out for water (yes, water, volumetric shock caused from blood loss makes you thirsty), and piles of gore as far as an edgy goth kid can imagine. They meant it when they said things were bloody or awful, and if they used words that severe it usually caused them extreme distress, or caused it for others.
It may have been "normal" for a soldier, but was something that still existed.
>>30149170
you watch too much movies
I think conditions in ww1 was pretty extreme, also there were millions duking it out in a small area. With more combatants the more greater the chance of having the most extreme cases ever seen.
>>30149045
Wow. Alright bud. Because it's definitely not like my HM1 got his bronze star, purple heart, and CAR from some indirect fire or anything. Totally just didn't do shit at all while over there. Nope, just over there lookin around and shit. Totally not fucked up from being shot/hit by an IED or having to kill people. Expert opinion bro 10/10. I bet ya were a ranger seal recon marine that's too tought to get PTSD.
>>30148533
This.
They don't call them the "lost generation" for nothing.
>>30148317
>being so utterly traumatized you're not even capable of walking properly anymore
>>30150538
It gets better: early 20th century understanding of psychological treatment was uh, crude by today's standards. The overriding interest was to return them to service as quickly as possible, which was accomplished with a 90%+ effective rate by electrocuting them, causing their muscles to move, and thus proving to the patient that they weren't suffering from a physical ailment. Only officers were treated in a way that dealt with the underlying trauma that caused them to manifest physical symptoms.
They were treated like cattle, and there was always the underlying suspicion that they were faking it.
>>30148317
PTSD comes from your brain, correct me if I am wrong but from my understanding it comes from the amygdala part of the brain and the fight or flight response that is the function of said part of the brain. So really there is no variable of what war you went through, but there is one for your amygdala genetics and the varying sizes of them. PTSD does not come from the idea of getting torn apart by artillery or filled with machine gun fire. It comes from your amygdala's fight or flight response, which can be triggered later on as I understand. Correct me if I am wrong about these facts. So that being said people with PTSD from WW1 are going to be no worse off than a viking who got it in the year 700 and goes berserk in battle. And yes I think even women who complain about PTSD from people shooting fireworks at them is valid. They do not know if they are in danger, if the loud noise doesl trigger a fight or flight response, and if you are prone to PTSD (most likely due to amygdala genetics) you will get it in any case of a traumatic experience. I am not an expert but I know a little about amygdala's, and I am not saying that there are no other parts of the brain which are genetically heritable that contribute to PTSD. I am not bringing them up because I don't know about them. The big picture, the big idea is that it comes from the brain and not outside influences, so the severity would not be a variable in how severe the PTSD is.
>>30150760
>so the severity would not be a variable in how severe the PTSD is.
So what war they took a part in would not be a variable in how severe the PTSD is*
Not running on a lot of sleep today.
>>30148317
>>30150538
there is a difference between PTSD and shellshock. shellshock happens after extended periods of bombardment, it is physical damage that happens to the brain
>>30150823
No, there isn't. That's what psychologists thought at first, but most victims of 'shell shock' had rarely or never been shelled at all. It was proven false.
>>30149164
Transporation is a huge thing people forget about. Guys in the Pacific spent so much time just sailing from island to island. In Vietnam you get carried to the field by chopper immediately, all in one country
>>30149204
That sounds fucking stupid, some explosions cause you to shake like tourette ridden retard? This is nonsense.
>>30150823
I would agree that this is probably true, and would properly account for any differences in PTSD that people have observed from the veterans of different wars. One is psychological and originating from the brain, which would not be influenced by outside variables such as which war and what technology is used, and the other is physical and would only be seen in wars with heavy artillery bombardments.
>>30150844
>Psychologists said this
Join the inquiry and let us think for ourselves and not rely too heavily on appeals to authority. Lets use authority to verify the facts, but lets come to our own conclusions with those facts. This is thinking for yourself, and it is not an the expense of abandoning verified facts as you hopefully can see. This is how new theories are formed.
>>30148317
>the "deaf" man who can only hear the word "bomb" anymore
holy shit my soul hurts
>>30148317
shellshock and ptsd are two different things. Sure, soldiers had ptsd in WW1 too, but a lot of these extreme cases from WW1 is a combination of getting their brain mashed over the course of thousands of explosions close by, and ptsd.
So, whenever you see a video of a WW1 soldier going full retard, that may not be ptsd, but more of a physical damage to his brain. Not saying that he didn't have ptsd too.
>>30148317
We know that PTSD is almost certainly caused by extended amounts of stress eroding your hippocampus. Imagine being in a dirty, water filled trench. Literally using your dead comrades as sandbags for extra shell protection, or trying to bury them in the trench only to have torrential rain dredge them up from the mud.
Literally shitting in a helmet and throwing it out. Not being able to light proper fires or give away your exact location to spotters for hundreds of artillery pieces. No comfort, no relaxation. Just stress all the time.
Add to this the actual concussive effects of artillery barrages. Literally tens of thousands of shells were dropped over the course of DAYS. Its not like WW2 where an intense but short lived creeping fire preceded an advance, literally days of non-stop shelling. The reports of people who survived it called the feeling they had as being "shell shocked" they had intense dizziness, nausea, other neurological defects. I imagine it would be like a blast wave just punching your brain, over, and over, and over.
Although there have been reports of PTSD like symptoms since ancient times, I think that we only see things like WW1 shell shock victims because the artillery definitely did no favors to their actual, physical brains.
>>30148317
PTSD is not the same thing as shell shock and or TBI
>>30150844
because they thought shell shock and ptsd was the same thing.
WW1 had injuries no other war has had before or after. Getting your brain scrambled by artillery going off next to you for days, nonstop, will inflict some brain damage.
The doctors thought ptsd was shellshock, then when ptsd acknowledged as something real, new doctors would discredit all shellshock as ptsd.
>>30150860
Initially it really was thought that soldiers had their nervous system fucked with by being too close to too many bombs going off. Being next to lots of explosions was one of common traits among all suffering men, so it was a natural conclusion.
>>30149002
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Hearts-Platoons-Descent-Triangle/dp/0307450767?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
Yah nah you're full of shit. Also all living vets get the same benefits as those leaving today right now.
>>30151239
>a book written by not a doctor but a man with a business mba
okay
>>30151008
>We know that PTSD is almost certainly caused by extended amounts of stress
>extended amounts of stress
Nah you're full of shit too. A single fast event like a car accident can cause it too.
>>30151266
Mostly as an address to modern war being "comfy". Basically troops don't experience ww1/2 type conditions, but the conditions we have today have results just as damaging just not as dramatic or pronounced. Being throwing from 2 separate exploded humvee during a single deployment from ieds and going back out again waiting to hit another one to kill you is just as fucked up as waiting for the next artillery barrage to nail you.
Just step through the problem and think for yourself. I came to accept the conclusion that PTSD and the pysical damage from shelling are two different problems. Why would PTSD, a mental illness originating from the brain, be any different from war to war? And yet the people who were constantly shelled have different symptoms. Not the same, they both have PTSD but one is suffering from brain damage from the shelling. This is the only way to explain the differences in PTSD from differing wars.
>>30149120
>hitting your woman
You are scum and there is absolutely no excuse for this, besides her initiating force.
In all fairness, the severity of WWI Shell Shock likely stemmed from the absolutely brutal conditions the war was fought in. Certainly in the past, there were similar wars of mass death, but none were on nearly the same scale, with anywhere near the destructive weaponry available. Marching on a line of guys with single shot rifles is a bit different than charging machine gun posts with rifle fire across your nose, while artillery shells landing around literally blow your friends into a mist in an instant.
>>30148317
PTSD was certainly a thing but they didn't have a good name for it.
Video is of Captain Picard talking about (what he believes to be) his father's PTSD and the effect it had on his childhood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqFaiVNuy1k
>>30150760
>Great Uncle stormed the beaches of Normandy
>Grandpa flew on helicopters with the Air Force as a medic into [REDACTED] during Vietnam
>my family in America has been fighting in wars since our Captain in the Revolution who led expeditions into Indian territory
At least if I go to war, I'm not genetically inclined to PTSD.
>>30151008
I can imagine this after you've been deep in the shit for a while.
It's the attempted return to normalcy that is the kicker.
>>30151310
I could see the idea of fighting against insurgent guerillas being just as stressful on the mind as WWI style conflict. The idea that at literally any moment rolling down the street, there is no safe zone. There are no "enemy lines". Nowhere is safe, and any instant could be the drawing line between you being alive, and being 100 gory pieces flying through the air. Couple that consistent stress with flashpoint periods of explosive combat, and you have a recipe that's just as harsh.
>>30148548
>Not denying it
You put PTSD in quotes as if that isn't the case. Now shut up.
>>30149898
Didn't HM2 tell you not to leave until you put all the pink cards back in the records and updated MRRS? Also, first sausage needs a PHA before COB friday.
>>30149045
>Your PTSD isn't valid because I don't think you suffered enough
Mkay
>>30149170
>40 years ago getting shot and killing the car jacker wouldve been a funny story to tell at the bar
No it wouldn't have been.
>i think its the influence of liberals on society
>muh liberals
>but the psyche of our society has been altered to be too navel gazing on wrongs done to them
This just sounds retarded.
How do you deal with PTSD?
I have it, never served, got it from childhood, and I'm on the waiting list to be seen by counsellors (had to change services) but its a long fucking list.
I don't even know where to start tackling this shit, I think I'm getting somewhere and then get knocked back on my ass again, it's at the point where for more than a year now I have extreme difficulty going outside or interacting with people and its annoying as fuck
>>30151139
People got fucked in Vietnam in a similar fashion, the non-stop bombing made teeth fall out and shit.
ptsd is a general term for a whole buncha shit
"shell shock" comes from physical damage to your brain, something thats somewhat common due to IED's nowadays
However most supposed ptsd victims are just doing it for the money
>>30148493
>>30148317
>Does modern day PTSD affect soldiers in a different way than the soldiers from the WW1 era?
Yes, because they had different psychological training.
>>30151511
I'd argue mostly on the Vietnamese side. Apparently the sound of jet aircraft overhead would cause them to lose bodily control and void on themselves constantly part way through operation rolling thunder.
>>30148451
Next time someone complains about a perceived disrespect for authority and traditional order with regards to nationalism and warfare, I think I'll point them towards this video. And then slap them.
>>30151524
>Most
As much as I am a misanthrope, I can't help but disagree. With psychology being such a soft science and everyone being wired differently you really can't dismiss even the more outlandish claims outright just because they don't fit the within the general range.
>>30150899
>Wake up sheeple!
Boy, do you sound like a faggot
Everything you just said is wrong, retarded, or both.
>>30151495
>How do you deal with PTSD?
I would say it depends on what happened and how it manifests. There isn't a catch all solution, but you're on the right track trying to get help.
>>30148558
Yes, actually. It's Lustmord, and their genre is called "dark ambient." Being terrifying shit like that is pretty much their description.
>>30151524
>However most supposed ptsd victims are just doing it for the money
[Citation Required]
No they aren't
(And it's really not that much money)
>>30151331
it has probably do to with the length of exposure
>>30148317
>One soldier was so traumatized, seeing German helmets and hats caused him to enter a panic attack
>People who were in Afghanistan wake up screaming
>hit the deck at the sound of a car backfiring,
>swerve wildly in their vehicle because they see trash by the side of the road
This all makes sense to me. this is believable, understandable.
>People in WW1
>they see things so awful IT MAKES THEM GO BLIND
This is beyond my imagination. This is like something out of a horrible Greek myth. I could not have guessed that such a thing is possible.
>>30153693
How about that cure tho? Shocking people until they complied and either began seeing, talking, or walking again.
Then back to the front.
>>30151452
Jokes on you, I don't have MRRS access anymore bud. I never used it. Tell one of the boots to do it.
>>30151524
>However most supposed ptsd victims are just doing it for the money
I'm guessing you're an expert, with first-hand professional experience dealing with people suffering from the condition?
One of my EIB cadre was telling me stories about the effect of grenades at the grenades station. He chucked a grenade into a small room on deployment. It was haji soup with random body parts floating afterwards. One of my drill sergeants took contact. His buddy got shot in the head, and he didn't notice until he turned around and saw his friends brains spilled out.
You're gonna sit at your desk and tell me PTSD is any different because death in war is easier now?
>>30151360
>not being able to take a few hits from a woman
Nah, there's still no excuse.
Was World War I the most brutal and pointless war in the history of mankind? And just to rub salt in the wound it's one that alot of people don't even know about all that much either. So many wasted lives.
>>30149170
This.
>Dad served in Operation Just Cause and Desert Storm.
>Killed more people than he could count.
>Isn't fucked in the head.
>He actually believes that PTSD is what happens to weak minded people.
>>30154178
I'd bet Vietnam would be a strong contender as well.
>>30154217
Meme propagated by defeatist and former hippies with no understanding of the conflict
>>30154167
>being so beta you won't hit a bitch back
>>30154167
>Because women are weak little people who can't hurt a REAL man
All these buttmad welfare queens in this thread trying to compare themselves to the greatest generation.
>>30154167
>being such a defeated human being that you won't stop someone from abusing you
>>30154217
Nigga i bet you believe our past few wars were bad. Vietnam was an entire blowout for North Vietnam
Only thing is the people who bitched about it somehow outlived those who fought it
Fucking doves
>inb3 China was about to rush in and help Minh
Who was left for them to help?
>>30154178
>most brutal and pointless war in history
I disagree, being on the other end of Ghengis Khans rampage doesn't sound like fun.
Oh, I get to watch my mother, my wife and my 2 month old daughter get raped by a a pack of Mongols right before they execute the entire village and their army has lunch on a pile of bodies listening to the moans and crunches of the bodies below.
ITT welfare queens try to justify their disability checks. Expose their mental weakness and pretend it's strength. Invent reasons why they had it just as bad a the veterans of real wars.
>>30154337
>Invent reasons why they had it just as bad a the veterans of real wars.
a lot of vets like to use this as a crutch for any future sadness or upset they might get thereby exaggerating the concept of 'PTSD'
it's a real problem even other combat vets find irritating.
E.g, whining at people shooting fireworks 'cuz "muh PTSD"
or not getting discounts at Denny's.
>>30149204
And the concussion from the blast surely couldn't of had some effect on the brain. That would imply war does permanent damage to someone's psyche and we can't have that, because then we can't therapy them better and that hurts my inner-liberal asslicker
>>30154389
You can also get TBI from rifle gas blowback if someone is shooting next to you.
The recoil of a rifle firing is also enough to jostle the brain in a way that could cause damage over periods of time.
The brain is a bitch ass organ sloshing around in there.
>>30148451
dudes need to harden the fuck up.
Not really replying to anyone, and please forgive me if this is off topic, but some time ago I've seen this documentary on combat effectiveness of soldiers throughout recent history.
If I remember correctly, some studies found out that out of all conscripts only a small percentage were actually willing to kill, a percentage corresponding to that of sociopaths in society.
The answer to improve that figure seemed to be to desensitize soldiers to violence, in many different ways.
Could this have had any influence on the incidence of ptsd?
>does anyone recognize the documentary from my shitty description and if so what was it titled?
>>30154887
Getting someone to kill is a mere fact of how much you can make them hate the enemy and dehumanize the enemy.
If you consider the enemy sub-human you have about the same concern for their life as that of a pig in a slaughter house.
But everyone pretty much comes to that conclusion when the enemy is shooting at them.
