How would a second civil war happen in the united states? Keep it semi-realistic
Pic unrelated
idk but dead burgers is a good thing
fuck usa
>>30097176
United States government would kill everyone (80 percent, or whatever percentage of people live in citys) via concentration camps (because lolnogunz). two years later the republican elect have enslaved the democrats and make them all pick cotton.
the sounds of whipping can be heard amidst cries of "pick faster donkey-boy!" and "get your lazy commie ass back to work! "
>>30097176
Total hell for the USA, on both sides.
Drones, tanks, etc, etc can't do shit against millions upon millions of armed people, especially considering how many people in the military would switch sides or how many would just walk inside an armory with some paper clips or something and fuck shit up.
Ultimately depending on how large the uprising is (even 1%, arguably, is enough), I'd think the people revolting would win, but of course with heavy heavy casualties.
Besides
>implying any uprising isn't going to be funded by jews
Do you /k/ommandos think they would drop out of the middle east?
>>30097251
you are kidding yourself if you think the military will switch sides. The MSM has complete control over those dullards and will paint any opponent in whatever flavor is necessary to engage their jingoism even if presented with opposing information.
>>30097295
>be in military
>guy tells me to shoot my own family and friends
>comply
> President pushes a HUGE single party asspull like banning all guns, banning types of speech, banning religions, mass deportations, or limiting media.
> It passes congress, rammed through in the dead of night in a special session, becoming law by a narrow margin.
> States collectivize to sue the federal government for an over reach as the federal government begins immediately enforcing it's new rules before the states can protest.
> Hundreds of people are arrested for exercising what just days ago were there right.
> The only people who are arrested are people living in states that were protesting the decision.
> The leaders of those states call for protests crying out against the BS that the federal government is pulling.
> One party agrees with everything, the other party disagrees with everything.
> People start to get Waco'd by the federal government while using force to resist their rights being taken.
> The supporting party sees these as terrorists, the opposing party sees them as hero's.
> Leader of the state in which incidents happened, has now joined a coalition of similar states DEMANDING the federal government stop it's actions.
> Government refuses to stop.
> States threaten force to stop the federal government's actions against it's citizens.
> Federal government refuses saying they have the full authority to enforce such laws.
> Federal government pulls all state funding, uniting the population against the government.
> National guard, Police officers, are being told to stop the federal government's agents from operating on state land.
> Federal government refuses, shots fired, agents or officers are killed...Civil war is on.
>>30097176
>Thousands of boys in blue stranded across the various global bases and at the mercy of their host nations.
>guerrilla forces on both sides, specfor trainers everywhere teaching everyone everything
>gangs becoming belligerent forces
>militia groups forming form andsiding with gangs
>northern and southern cartels forming paramilitary groups to raid US cities
>interstate warfare
>capitol hill abandoned, looted, and burning
>talking heads telling everyone to ignore everything that's happening outside their windows
>all those nukes just sitting idle
An outbreak of legitimate rebellion is the absolute worst possible scenario right before everything gets burnt and quaratined by strategic glassing. There's a damned good set of reasons even the most hardcore and militant militia groups haven't made good on their claims against traitors.
>>30097295
>Oi go slaughter the people of your home town
>Oi go slaughter everyone you know and love
>Oi go blow up national landmarks
etc etc
Many people hold immense pride for their states, and would switch sides in a heartbeat if their state revolted.
>>30097316
this sounds pretty nail on head... states win, right? right?
>>30097344
No winner in war, senpai. Especially not a civil war. Russia and China win.
>>30097315
>>30097331
except even a mildly intelligent commander or general will take this into account and tell them to kill someone who he doesnt know, send them somewhere where they dont know anyone. ie take people from Flawda and send to Vermont or some shit.
>>30097176
> difference between rich and poor becoming bigger
> trade agreements pull away more jobs from rural states
> progressive politicians speak in language no rational conservative understands
> people feel unrepresented
> People become more weary of outsiders
> because of PC no rational discussion is possible
> stupid people suggest a cleansing
> muslims go first because, well... Jesus chose Amurica
> cleansings spread rapidly through social media
> whole world is shocked, America gains Prestige -5
> Swedish comedian jokes: "guns don't kill people, stupid Americans with guns kill people"
> Washington needs to counter federally
> too many guns
> tanks and helicopter gunships deployed
> more outrage, locals choose state above federal government
> midwest states align under a common flag
> as America burns Putin invades Europe
> Bans german as a language, and all Ukrainian women are sold to the middle east as sex slaves
> murdercube be praised, hell is upon us
What I want to know is what happens to the US nuclear stockpile in the event of a civil war?
Say states in revolt housed nukes and controlled the silos, is it an instant stalemate?
I mean it would pretty much be game over for all sides once nukes start flying so what strategic role do missile silos and such play in the scheme of a civil war?
>>30097405
>rational
>conservative
>the same people who rant about government tyranny and then vote for people who open secret prisons
>>30097176
>economic collapse
>no money to keep war machine rolling
>total infrastructure collapse
>factions start fighting for control
>top faction assimilates or annihilates all other factions
>restores order, laws, taxes, ect.
>after about 100 years everything is exactly how it was before civil war
As if a civil war would ever happen now anyway. Humanity has a natural process, historically a ruling party oversees the general public, however you want to spin it. Wars are fought for greed, and the gubment already milks the US public pretty good, why would they want to waste money and opportunity cost on a war?
>>30097417
Conservative and Republican are two different things
>>30097176
Basically, progressive liberals in cities vs conservatives in small towns / country.
You might go so far as to call it "consumers" vs "producers," or "grasshoppers" vs "ants."
So the grid gets shut down and FEMA / DHS moves in to major population centers.
Possibly martial law / posse comitatus situation.
Their supplies eventually run out and scavenging parties are sent out to the farmlands.
A few make it back.
>>30097386
>be in military
>get sent to vermont while somebody else is being sent to kill your family
>comply
>>30097176
the entire world outside the US would collectively lose their shit laughing
it would be the world's best reality tv show
>>30097726
>implying you would know.
>implying you wouldnt be put under the impression that your family would be safe if you comply and go fight the evil domestic turrists.
>>30097405
> because of PC no rational discussion is possible
wew lad
>>30097818
>No guys trust me I really, really know what I'm talking about.
>Talking about perfect statistics that fall in 50 and 75% ranges.
>>30097842
>Get sent to vermont to "keep the peace"
>Kill men, women and children barely the age of an adult
>Come home to find out family is pepsied by other soldiers
>Continue to comply
>>30097416
This is the real question folks. Civil war could turn into a race to the silos, they are the biggest chess pieces.
>>30097316
>People stop paying taxes.
>Government goes bankrupt in two weeks
>Can't afford upkeep on military
>More soldiers quite because no moniez
>Supply/ammo/fuel shortages
>Government tries to take by force supplies and piss more people off and more people fight them
>Government prints more money and inflation goes through the roof turning anyone else against them
>Anyone in government hung from bridges in droves and DC looks like the Vlad the Impaler came back for one last round with the corpses of the traitors strewn on pikes around the city.
>>30098082
>stop paying taxes
this right here, we're becoming more and more a centrally planned economy, a few cents withheld here and there a few hundred dollars go missing year by year, inching along until the deficit is sprawling ahead of projections by the thousands and eventually hundreds of thousands of dollars and key communities are being rationed on their welfare and put on riotwatch
>>30098040
>implying the military bases are ever even going to be targets?
jesus christ are you actually retarded?
>>30098448
this has already been happening at an incredibly large scale. Every major business of the USA is tax sheltering out the wazoo.
its pretty obvious at this point that they will just keep doing what they have been doing and just keep printing more and more money until we reach a point where nobody is using the currency anymore.
>>30098648
It would take the government being funded by an outside source for them to wage a civil war.
If it was a leftist president that started the civil war it wouldn't take anything for right wing militias to shut down the economy.
If it was the rightwing government against the left it would be the same thing, but for some reason I think this would fare better than a leftist government.
>>30097207
You got wifi in your mud hut?
>>30097596
Not in the election booth, apparently.
>>30097176
>Despite small cuts, the welfare state trundles on unmolested
>Government desperately prints money to pay their expenses and obligations
>Dollar becomes worthless over the course of a month
>Bread now costs $2,000 dollars
>Barter is the only way to survive
>Huge numbers of city dwellers begin an exodus to the countryside
>Murder rates escalate as people attack one another to get food
>Actual food producers dictate terms of employment
>They create neo-feudal sharecropping arrangements
>Migrant workers behead Napa vineyard owners
>Much of California, the Deep South and the remnants of the inner cities become even more lawless than they already are
>Various state governments attempt to restore order
>The federal government still exists, but they are routinely ignored
>State governments begin to view the Presidency like the Medieval Papacy
Everybody goes home
The End
>>30098795
>It would take the government being funded by an outside source for them to wage a civil war.
No. No it would not. they have all the arms. stockpiles, munitions and people, they have a propaganda machine hard at work to keep the people on their side, if an uprising occured it would be a very small part of the population. The rest of the population would still be funding the quashing via taxation.
>>30097207
Don't be mad we're better than you. Just move here and live in freedom. Oh wait... your exchange rate on your useless money would make you below poverty level.
>>30097274
>Doubtful
Why would the government import more enemys?
>yfw US military goes rampant and takes over middle east or integrates with the other militarys.
>>30097176
Like this.
>>30097295
If we're so far gone that the military is involved in domestic civil matters, I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of the military has already declared alignment.
Most likely, the military will either choose or be directed to sit it out on the sidelines. Very possibly going to an extreme defensive posture to discourage/impede foreign meddling.
It'll be LE vs insurgents. For a snapshot of which way a state is leaning, see if the governor has called up the NG for counterinsurgency. Then check the manning levels of the units that answer the call up.
The primary difference between US mil and US LE is that LE already considers the citizenry to be the enemy.
>>30100081
>LE vs insurgents
>National Guard
National guard is mil bruh.
also, what the fuck does
> I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of the military has already declared alignment.
mean?
>>30097416
I doibt that the states have the codes and so on to launch a warshot. Best they could hope for is to jerry rig a dirty bomb. I guess if they had enough of the right kind of people and the right kind of facilities they could restructure a warhead into a warhead that they could use. Whoever holds Pantex and Lawrence Livermore will have a lot of traction with the states that control silos. States with nuclear capable shipyards will also have a lot of clout.
By themselves, missiles in silos are useless to whoever holds them unless that entity also holds the entire launch chain.
>>30097207
Stay mad nigger
>>30100177
>also, what the fuck does
> I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of the military has already declared alignment.
>mean?
It means that there are people in the military who have already chosen a side, either with the Military and the "Republic" or the Citizenry.
Due to the average estimated makeup of the Military Population's Political beliefs, I'm going to go with the fact that a large portion side with the citizenry, not the state's whim.
>>30100206
lol no. The military chooses its side. It thinks what its told to think and only knows what its exposed to via the MSM. The military sees itself as its own entity separate from the civvies.Just like the oinkers do.you might have people who defect but they will be a very small portion.
>>30100177
NG is mil if federalized, i.e., called up to go fight a war. The president or other designated federal authority can do that.
However, governors can activate their state NG units for LE purposes. In a civil war scenario, you can bet that the feds will be putting unholy pressure on the governors to do a call up and then send the troops to wherever the cities are burning. Some will, some won't.
Regarding alignment- troops are well-wired into social media. Everybody has a smartphone. They'll be getting texts from home and watching Youtube videos of things like insurgents ambushing LE MRAPs in their old neighborhood. They'll have a real good idea of what's going on.
And if command confiscates smartphones? Maybe issues an official pravda about who the good guys are? That'll just seal the deal, desertions will probably skyrocket UNLESS the official line happens to agree with the personal inclination of the majority of the troops in the command.
You'll still see some desertions, regardless of what the narrative is. Troops will leave to support the faction they most closely identify with. That's what I meant by declaring alignment.
>>30097176
It wouldn't. A civil war would cause our trade dependent society's supply lines to collapse and throw pretty much every state into horrific shit mode. The collapse of the US currency would have global repercussions that throw the world economy into debt and spark unrest in all their countries. No state is willing to risk that much of their citizens, and no majority of citizens would be willing to forgo our current standard of living. This of course assuming you don't mean some magic scenario where the Feds go evil empire.
>>30100320
Poor bait. From your weak attempt at trolling, it's obvious that you know nothing about our military or our culture. I'll give you 2/10, because I responded.
>>30100320
Bernie pls leave
>>30097176
Some people use their left eye to see the sights
Basically a country wide insurgency, Eric frien polish ambushes nation wide, took weeks to find the one guy.
mass panic and hysteria and martial law is what would happen first, the U.S would be invaded by multiple countries most likely once servicemen start choosing sides and turning their guns and equipment on the ones who they feel are on the wrong side.
>>30100364
>hurr durr I cant make a counter argument so i'll just call it a troll. boo fucking hoo.
dont fucking kid yourself. The military is like a family or in some ways like a cult. If it comes to choosing sides, there is no choice. The military is full to the brim of blind loyalty.
>>30100378
>mfw I want to make America great again.
>>30100391
Thisiswhatliberalsthink.jpg.
>>30100405
Also, everyone that disagrees with you is literally Hitler.
>>30100405
>>30100425
Always remember he's a fag and always wrong.
lols you are watching our current news right ? ..... ? there teaching how to do it.
>>30100405
too many tripfaggots on this board.
I don't come here often, don't really know why I'm here now, but I thought this board didn't allow politics.
As a ''fed'' *cough* park ranger in yellowstone I will go ahead and say that a good portion of any (sane) like minded park or forest ranger will more than happily stand ground on the behalf of the American people because a majority of us that end up park rangers are ex LEO and GI-Jones/janes that served the country because despite all the bullshit, all the hatred, America is a country worth fighting for.
>>30100469
guns arent political. guns are life.
learn it live it love it.
this is /k/, now git da fuc owt.
>>30100473
good for you. werent talking about hasbeen's though, we're talking current military.
>>30100480
this thread isn't about guns, though
>>30100498
warfare->weapons->/k/
>>30100206
Fool, the People are The Republic, the opposition factor is The Union
>>30097386
logistics fail
supplies lost in transit when starving / entitled "citizens" go all gibsmedat
commanders turn to local farms
unit cohesion lost by now; massive desertions as nasty girls become hired muscle for land barons, bring their toys with them
>>30100391
do research into combat arms troops' demographics
you're left with clerks and jerks
well...'bye.
>>30097596
Yeah republicans are too scared to impliment half the batshit stuff conservatives want.
It's a different kind of cancer.
>>30099395
All ants but the drones are female.
>>30101998
no shit
>>30101744
I have and if it comes down to it, its a choice to them of "us vs them" not, "us vs us". The army will always answer "how high" when the central government says "jump"
>>30097176
Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump are elected president is when USA Civil War 2.0 happens
>>30098082
Can the "government" print money?
The federal reserve isnt a governing entity.
>>30097315
Yet militaries all over the world have been indeed shown to comply.
Read the fate of empires and the search for surival, guys.
it explains pretty exactly what will happen the USA and what has happened to most other "super powers" throughout history.
heres a link to the pdf.
people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf
>>30103576
>people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf
the book's only 26 pages long too
>>30100370
A unit commander isn't going to break up his unit just so he can send troops to areas they're not from. That's how commanders get relieved. Also, what guarantee does he have that troops won't have relatives in the area they're sent to? We're a very mobile society, chances are very high that troops will have links to several regions of the country.
You keep going on about the MSM like that's the only media that troops are allowed. It's not, it probably accounts for a small fractio of the news that mil personnel get. Like I said, everybody has a smart phone, everybody gets messages from the people back home. They also browse the news source of their choice.
I suspect that you've never been in the US military, your views on the subject are pretty cut and paste from the left end of the spectrum. It's like you were told what to believe and never bothered asking why.
>>30103639
>A unit commander isn't going to break up his unit just so he can send troops to areas they're not from. That's how commanders get relieved. Also, what guarantee does he have that troops won't have relatives in the area they're sent to? We're a very mobile society, chances are very high that troops will have links to several regions of the country.
all of which would be taken into account. also never mentioned that the units would be broken up.
>You keep going on about the MSM like that's the only media that troops are allowed. It's not, it probably accounts for a small fractio of the news that mil personnel get. Like I said, everybody has a smart phone, everybody gets messages from the people back home. They also browse the news source of their choice.
its called the mainstream media for a reason, its the main source of news. true there is going to be outside information, but censoring already occurs and it would only get worse under that kind of civil strife situation.
>>30103639
>I suspect that you've never been in the US military, your views on the subject are pretty cut and paste from the left end of the spectrum. It's like you were told what to believe and never bothered asking why.
You are correct that I've never been in the military but I was raised around that culture my entire life. My view of the military culture contrasts with its member's because I can see it as it is from the outside looking in. I take it you are or where a member from your dismissal of my argument based on sounding like I was not a member. case in point.
>>30100391
Ok, here's your response. It's obvious that you have no experience with or in the US military. From the syntax and composition of your previous post I assumed that English wasn't your native language.
Your post is a warmed-over meme from the far Left that has been in circulation since the Vietnam war. If you had ever been in or around any US military unit, you would know that monolithic obedience and loyalty are a myth.
You should quit regurgitating what you've been told to think, and actually put in some time and effort to learn about what you're shitposting about.
>>30103050
>I have and if it comes down to it, its a choice to them of "us vs them" not, "us vs us". The army will always answer "how high" when the central government says "jump"
Ok, so now you get to show your sources. Show us what information you studied to arrive at your conclusion.
>>30103788
ad hominem, wanna try that again with some logic behind it jarhead?
>>30103592
>26 pages
That would be more like a pamphlet
From what I understand living here in commiefornia and peeping in on my co-workers'(who is fucking whiter than me) black morning radioshows; a race war will happen if Donald Trump is elected.
>>30097386
Do you think all the people in one unit are from the same place?
>>30103851
He did. You did not.
He is right. You have no experience in these matters whatsoever. You are a dullard, grasping at ignorance, feebly fumbling at what you think a military mind entails. You have no knowledge.
>>30103910
USA is a big fucking place. wouldnt matter.
>>30103842
http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/desertion_confederate_during_the_civil_war
there you go. Yeah you'll say its out of date, but not much has changed since then other than the weapons and other toys.
>>30097176
>80% of the military refuses orders and sits it out
>5% of the military actively participates
>15% of the military actively rebels
>40% of police refuse orders
>40% actively rebel
>20% participate
Major metro areas turned into warscapes, the official "war" over within 48 hours as all politicians on both sides killed or detained by pissed-off military and LEOs.
>>30103968
80% Rebels and the rest fight.
No one's gonna let you muck about and sit there all day.
>>30103979
And who's gonna be left to force them to?
Face it, if an entire fucking base tells the government to fuck off there's not shit anyone can do about it.
>>30103945
>He did. You did not.
point out a single factual statement,
The only point anyone has made so far is "he wasnt in the military so he doesnt know anything "
Heres a thought, do you think a liberal gun grabber would think that what he is trying to do is immoral and idiotic? No he would not, in his mind he is perfectly justified and righteous. Views of a group from the outside looking in are often more accurate than those from the inside. because they have a bigger picture. this isnt true in all cases of course, and this is probably not the best analogy but its the best I've got at the moment.
>>30103995
Yes there is a shit to do about it and that's gonna your law enforcement and other nations under the UN.
>>30097176
>President Trump gets into office
>Massive civil unrest and violent groups are backed by powerful foreign governments
>They start rousing a good portion of the population into rioting and burning shit while the other half becomes polarized
>Large areas on the east and west coast literally attempt to nullify and secede as Trump and the majority of the country starts reforms
>Ends up being a national event as the rabblerousers literally take over entire towns and cities in looting a rioting
>Economy finally collapses and banks close further dividing the country.
>These leftists and looters are turned into organized communist factions
>They begin a campaign of terrorism across the United States backed by foreign government
>The national guard is called in and the United States military ends up fighting on it's own land against an internal jihadist-communist/globalist war.
>People are forced from their homes and into the fighting in the streets a la Syria
But it'll never happen here. It can't we are the UNITED FUCKING STATES.
We all know bad shit doesn't happen to big countries like us. We are immune from those things that occurred in Syria.... Libya.... Iraq....
>>30103736
>send them somewhere where they dont know anyone. ie take people from Flawda and send to Vermont or some shit.
Pretty heavily implies breaking up units. We're not British, units aren't traditionally drawn from a particular region or town.
If you grew up in a military family, you got a partial snapshot of the culture. Your parent will hang out with like-minded individuals. The entire unit is not composed of those individuals.
>censorship
You're still disregarding the fact that every member of the mil has their own newsfeed in the palm of their hand. You're also completely ignoring the fact that the military is composed overwhelmingly of the demographics least likely to use or trust the MSM.
>>30097295
When the Civil War happened in the 19th century plenty of people in the US Army left to join the Confederacy. Just look at one of the greatest generals of the war, Robert E. Lee. I see no real reason for the military to follow either side without significant defection.
>>30097207
>>30104027
>civil war
>other nations under the UN
Uh huh.
>>30104040
>>30104040
>Pretty heavily implies breaking up units. We're not British, units aren't traditionally drawn from a particular region or town.
>If you grew up in a military family, you got a partial snapshot of the culture. Your parent will hang out with like-minded individuals. The entire unit is not composed of those individuals.
the point I'm trying to make is that a marginally intelligent leadership would reorganize and issue orders that took that kind of thing into account.
>>30104040
>If you grew up in a military family, you got a partial snapshot of the culture. Your parent will hang out with like-minded individuals. The entire unit is not composed of those individuals.
As a matter of fact I have experience with a bunch of types in the military, the majority of which is completely disinterested in politics and just cares about the here and now. ie low information voters. Very trashy people all things considered.
>>30097316
Very feasible, I bet if a civil war breaks out this is basically how it starts.
>>30103949
Good source, yes, a little dated. A different time, different culture, etc., etc.
It would be a better source if it addressed the issue I specifically greentexted in my post asking for sources. The source you posted has nothing to do with the issue I'm challenging you on.
>>30104027
I think we'd forget about our civil war the second a UN blue hat step foot on our shores. It would end badly for the UN
>>30104139
>It would be a better source if it addressed the issue I specifically greentexted in my post asking for sources. The source you posted has nothing to do with the issue I'm challenging you on.
>debating on army loyalty when fighting a civil war
>gives source on defection rates from the armys on both sides during a civil war on the first page.
Did you miss your appointment to get your head scanned at the VA today?
Not even trolling, genuinely concerned.
>>30097207
Only burger is a dead burger
>>30104084
Your government is the UN. Wait and see.
>>30097176
>How would a second civil war happen in the united states? Keep it semi-realistic
Two weeks after Trump is elected president, murrikans of all sorts just start unloading on each other. Everybody relishes the slaughter. All die. The end. No moral.
>>30097710
"supplies eventually run out everywhere as urban tansportation hubs, manufacturing and processing is separated from rural agraculture and resource extraction.
Eventually, using their concentrations of population the urban areas raise large, coordinated strike forces to one by one eliminate the sparse pockets of rural resistance"
Fixed your stupid never going to happen fantasy for you.
>>30104189
>be a lonely dumb fag
>act stupid
>get shat on
>pretend to be a smug troll
>actually just happy to talk to someone besides mom
>>30104486
oooooo touched a nerve there. go cry to your ptsd therapist that someone beat you in an internet argument.
>>30104416
this. the grasshoppers outnumber the ants.
>>30097207
This
>economy is brought down
>massive inflation
>supply distribution points set up
>emergency powers take effect and martial law shit occurs
>people realize all the conspiracy theories were true
>start shooting
>military and police side with government/UN because restore order and shiett
>america totally collapses
>bloodiest insurgency ever in the south springs up
>west coast submits and goes off to labor camps
>north submits or dies the first winter
>government enlists foreign nations help to quell the assassination/ambush campaign mostly in the south
>america is effectively dead as a constitutionally sovereign nation
>they underestimated how many rednecks have watched youtube conspiracy videos and bleed themselves out of resources trying to quell the insurgency
>resort to biocidal warfare
>hope you faggots have gas masks and camo hazmat suits
>after 2 years more than half the population is dead
>eventually the government forces fall apart from the inside due to moral issues and no motivation
>people begin homesteading to rebuild america
>america is invaded by salty pacos and pedros
>they get their ass waxed in a week
>we finally build the fucking wall
>10 years after it initially started america is made great again at only 1/8th the original population
>99% white now
>all of the carnage from the past decade was recorded on video to remind future generations of the consequences of cultural marxism
>golden age begins
>>30099395
>it would be a very small part of the population
and china
and russia
and probably a few european country
and ISIS
and al qaeda
and any other domestic terrorist group
or major ones
if the USA get into a civil war, EVERYONE in the world would want a part of the big ass fucking cake, why ? because USA went so far in the world everyone want to become like it
>>30104621
>implying im a veteran
>mad because his moms Muhreen bf sodomizes his spergtard ass at night
>>30104812
mfw I finally got to call a vet out on their bullshit.
>>30104957
>muhreen-dad sodomy confirmed to be literally true
apex fucking kek
>>30105062
keep crying your tears are sweet to me.
>>30103900
>shit that will never happen: The Post
Just like all the leftist jerk offs that will leave the country when The Donald™ gets the White House, amirite?
>>30105090
probably not as sweet as when your Gunny stepdad pops in your though.
>>30105252
>so buttblasted his grammar suffers lolol
>>30097207
its natural to hate and be jealous of someone better than you
>>30104095
>the point I'm trying to make is that a marginally intelligent leadership would reorganize and issue orders that took that kind of thing into account.
In other words, breaking up units to form other units. That's how you kill unit cohesion. It'll turn effective, functional units into a loose gaggle of strangers who all wear the same clothing.
>very trashy people
Exactly. The kind of people who are inclined to distrust anything said by the government because they are low information voters. They fall for the sound bites and the campaign promises, then get burned because they didn't read the fine print. Every single time.
>disinterested in politics
Again, look at the demographics involved. A bunch of 18-24 year olds aren't really interested in intangibles. They want to get laid and get drunk, not necessarily in that order. They're still growing out of high school mode. Now take that same group of kids and remove their support network of family and friends. They're going to focus on building a new network. Doing this involved establishing status, so they do things like get tattoos and buy Mustangs.
Political awareness starts dawning later, after they've been shot at a few times. Eventually they start wondering why they're being shot at.
You still haven't said anything to convince me that your view of the military isn't very 2 dimensional. You saw what you expected to see because that's what you were told to expect. How sophisticated was your worldview when you graduated high school?
>>30104189
>geniinely concerned
No you're not.
The specific part I was referencing was your contention that
>The army will always answer "how high" when the central government says "jump
That has nothing to do with the source you posted. Come to think of it, your source could be considered as a refutation of your contention.
>>30106032
>In other words, breaking up units to form other units. That's how you kill unit cohesion. It'll turn effective, functional units into a loose gaggle of strangers who all wear the same clothing.
yeah so theyll do it ahead of time and give the new units time to bond in the showers. no homo. >>30106032
>Exactly. The kind of people who are inclined to distrust anything said by the government because they are low information voters. They fall for the sound bites and the campaign promises, then get burned because they didn't read the fine print. Every single time.
you say that like you think thats going to change in this given situation. it will happen every single time, like you said.
>>30106032
>Again, look at the demographics involved. A bunch of 18-24 year olds aren't really interested in intangibles. They want to get laid and get drunk, not necessarily in that order. They're still growing out of high school mode. Now take that same group of kids and remove their support network of family and friends. They're going to focus on building a new network. Doing this involved establishing status, so they do things like get tattoos and buy Mustangs.
exactly. those are the same people who they are going to send out to do the dirty deeds. because they are cut off from everything.
my view of the military is very 3 dimensional, and formed that opinion based solely off being around the military for most of my life. quite the opposite of being told to believe anything as you say. In 1989 my worldview was pretty wide for an 18 year old, got to admit although what does that have to do with anything.
pic not related
>>30104621
That's some other anon you're arguing with. There's more than just the 2 of us in this thread.
>>30097207
faggot
>>30106226
fine, I'll lay it out for you since you cant read.
>Some acts of desertion have also been described as a form of political protest. Confederate Virginians fled military service at a rate of between 10 and 15 percent, more or less comparable to the desertion rate among Union troops, which stood between 9 and 12 percent. Prior to mid-1862, desertion was lightly punished if at all, but following the Confederate Conscription Act of April 1862, enforcement was often harsh and included execution.
less than 20 percent on each side, when asked to go kill fellow country men said fuck you to the govt. The rest said, "how high?" and that was when they WERE NOT punishing desertion with execution.
What about that doesn't grok Jacques?
>>30106273
oh really, had no idea I was arguing with the wrong anonymous poster.
/sarcasm lol
>>30097176
There's been dozens of these threads since Trump secured the nomination.
Go ahead start your leftist revolution, I dare you.
>>30106265
For a now 27yo who has allegedly been around a lot of military people, you don't seem to have assimilated any of the basic social dynamics, especially in combat arms. Perhaps acting like a sheltered pseudointellectual has something to do with that.
Come "the beginning" I'd expect 80% of infantry <E7 or <O3 to sit on their hands whistling. Maybe, maybe, they'd follow a coup to overturn a liberal government, if it was really liberal and really dumb about it, and if they were led by a really charismatic group of generals with pentagon-wide support....but the reverse ain't happening.
>>30106340
The part where you think 1860s social dynamics apply to 2016.
>>30106409
first off, cant count much?
second, try refuting my argument, instead of just crying because someone who wasnt in your little club has an opinion about it.
>>30106421
ok then I'll bite. How have things changed exactly, aside from the communications technology (which is completely controllable by the US govt by the way)?
People have less morality now than they did back then, which I would take to mean that we would have even less deserters rather than more.
we are even further polarized now, which means that we would have even less of a problem killing our own if they were painted the wrong color by the media or whomever.
we are also almost completely dead economically, which means that people are going to be even less likely to do anything since they are completely reliant on uncle sam and his fat fiat-checks. back then people had more options economically because we still had unskilled labor that needed doing.
>>30106421
I don't think our friend here has ever been in the military.
No anecdotal evidence or deployment stories.
Let him have his day.
Its all academic to him.
You seem to have been around, though.
What's your opinion, or did I miss it earlier?
(Sorry, my browser doesn't show markers)
>>30106265
>theyll do it ahead of time and give the new units time to bond
Which is a huge red flag. Doing that kind of reorganization on any kind of meaningful scale would bankrupt the country. There's also the time factor to consider. You get, at most, 4 years to pull it off. Leslie Groves couldn't do that kind of miracle even if he had God on speed dial. Attempting something like that would gut every unit involved. Re-up rates would tank, and word would get out that something fishy was up, which would kill enlistment numbers. You'd be lucky to get units at 25% manning levels.
>you say that like you think thats going to change in this given situation. it will happen every single time, like you said.
Which would lead to bad morale and astronomical desertion rates. This reduces or destroys the effectiveness of the New Model Army you're touting.
>the same people who they are going to send out to do the dirty deeds
Doubtful. It doesn't take a genius to recognize an illegal order. Then you have a mutiny on your hands because those same people also are too simple to realize what's at stake.
>In 1989 my worldview was pretty wide for an 18 year old, got to admit although what does that have to do with anything.
It was a matter of getting you to reflect on your relative lack of sophistication. When you turned 18 I had 10 years active duty under my belt, 6 deployments to 4 continents, and I still didn't have all the pieces put together. Voted for Perot, etc. That was long before instant access to all the info in the world. I sincerely doubt your worldview was as broad as you claim.
>>30103202
Sure, the fed doesn't collude with the government. Just like politicians don't collude with their super PACs.
>>30106589
>facts dont matter because I know like 20 dudes in the army who would totally like defect instead of just grumble and do as their commander told them to do.
tldr: hurrr durr muh service
>>30106597
>Which is a huge red flag.
possibly I'll admit that it would to the few people who actually had their ears to the ground.
>>30106597
>Doing that kind of reorganization on any kind of meaningful scale would bankrupt the country. There's also the time factor to consider.
I'm not talking about taking people and retraining them, or even really moving them, im talking taking people and putting them in a new unit with the same role. and unless they were getting new equipment, pretty sure the paychecks would just stay the same?
>>30106597
>Doubtful. It doesn't take a genius to recognize an illegal order. Then you have a mutiny on your hands because those same people also are too simple to realize what's at stake.
No but it does take someone thats well informed and most of the people in question wouldnt be by default or by purposefully keeping them in the dark, compartmentalization of information and all that.
>>30106597
>It was a matter of getting you to reflect on your relative lack of sophistication. When you turned 18 I had 10 years active duty under my belt, 6 deployments to 4 continents, and I still didn't have all the pieces put together. Voted for Perot, etc. That was long before instant access to all the info in the world. I sincerely doubt your worldview was as broad as you claim.
"thanks for your service" but you are only reinforcing my point. it takes people a long time to reach a level of information and experience that would let them fit all the pieces together, or to even care to do so in the first place.
>>30097359
>Russia and China win.
This is the most poignant statement thus far, and it is also the reason why Civil War must never take place.
>>30106589
lol army guys dont like it when you interrupt their circlejerks and red dawn-esque fantasies. who would have guessed
>>30106340
>What about that doesn't grok Jacques?
If you're going to use obscure Heinlein memes, please use them properly.
You're comparing contemporary culture with one from a century and a half ago. If you can't see that it's an apples/oranges scenario, then I can't help you.
You might have better luck if you referenced Vietnam draftee desertion rates. You'll want to break it down a few different ways: overall rates, desertion in-country, desertion among units headed in-country, desertion among forces stationed in Europe, and desertion among forces headed to Europe.
That will give you a more contemporary snapshot. Then, you look at another statistic- percentage of recruits who freeze up their first time under fire. Compare the rates for Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan. The difference is your multiplier, the factor that you apply to the Vietnam desertion rates to get an idea of what desertion rates could be in a modern civil war.
>>30106699
>all of this shit
Ex-ADF here (no, not reserves):
You're a fucking idiot, you are completely unaware of the fact that any well trained military does lawful order training, and you haven't seen the culture of the military in general.
No matter which way you put it, the moment an order to target civilians or commit a war crime is given, whoever gave the order is going to get at best ignored, at worst shoved into a cell.
Don't even TRY to pull the (B-But they targeted muh civvies in the ME!) shit your type so often spout, those were insurgents. No soldier is going to stroll through a modern American city and start firing unless fired upon.
Please, take one of those diplomas you fuckheads get and sodomize yourself with it.
>>30106597
here's some reading material.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/05/21/prison-abuse-soldiers-were-following-orders.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes
http://www.the-philosopher.co.uk/whocares/popups/warcrimes.htm
>>30106774
go ahead, answer my question. What exactly has changed that would make people more likely to defect from then till now?
you want to talk apples and oranges, you just brought desertion in Vietnam into the equation. a foreign war that we had no business entering with the MSM of the time throwing everything they had against it. We are talking civil war here broseph stalin. Get with the program.
>Heinlein
you probably had to google that. loling my ass off over here.
also see
>>30106808
pic unrelated
>>30106798
>>30106798
>No matter which way you put it, the moment an order to target civilians or commit a war crime is given, whoever gave the order is going to get at best ignored, at worst shoved into a cell.
tell that to all the civvies that died in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Japan, our own civil war, our short involvement with WWII, and WWI. lol
>>30106798
>Please, take one of those diplomas you fuckheads get and sodomize yourself with it.
Jeez you welfare queens get nasty when someone challenges your fragile worldview.
>>30106798
LOL yeah remember when Lon Horiuchi refused to shoot that lady holding a baby?
.gov employees can ALWAYS be counted on to Do The Right Thing.
>>30106906
>tell that to all the civvies that died in Afghanistan
Mup Da Do Didda the guys hanging around insurgents actively shooting at soldiers dindu nuffin.
>Vietnam
MUP DA DOOAOAAAH DDIDIDAAAHHHH ACTIVE FIGHTERS DINDU NUFFIN
>Japan
Okay this one just shows you didn't pay attention in History. They were never going to surrender, military or civilians. Are you familiar with the hastily built aircraft they handed over to civilians to fly into US ships?
>our short involvement with WWII, and WWI.
What is Total War with massive attrition rates and germans literally mixing in with civilians of all types to get shots off at US Soldiers?
>Jeez you welfare queens get nasty when someone challenges your fragile worldview.
Not my fault you spent 80 thousand fucking dollars learning some useless skill under the pretense it'd get you a job.
>>30106922
>confusing government with military
Sodomize yourself.
>>30106699
>few people who actually had their ears to the ground.
Everybody in uniform is dialed in to the rumor mill. It's literally a matter of survival. You should have picked up on that if you spent any time at all around mil people.
>taking people and putting them in a new unit with the same role
It's called a PCS transfer, and it's expensive. I've done it 10 times in my career, total cost comes out somewhere north of $500K. So there's your baseline. Call it $50K per person.
Add more because there will have to be training at the new unit. SOP is never the same between units. There'll also have to be an increase in training cycles to integrate the new people. That's how units become cohesive.
There's also the expense of the admin burden that all of this PCSing is going to create. It'll be astronomical.
>it does take someone thats well informed
All branches make it crystal clear what the definition of an illegal order is. It's done in boot camp/recruit training. They also define the responsibilities of the service member receiving said illegal order. This is done in language that a 6th grader could follow. The Nuremburg trials and My Lai had that effect on our contemporary mil culture.
>you are only reinforcing my point. it takes people a long time to reach a level of information and experience that would let them fit all the pieces together, or to even care to do so in the first place.
So your statement that your worldview was quite wide when you were 18 is bullshit, then?
The people in this thread that think the actual trigger pullers in the military would side with the government, especially a democratic party held government, never served in the military.
Source; i served in the military as an FMF corpsman with marine infantry.
>>30106954
he mad lol.
>>30106954
>Not my fault you spent 80 thousand fucking dollars learning some useless skill under the pretense it'd get you a job.
I'm self employed and own over a thousand acres. lol. Sorry you couldnt hack it and had to join the 'speshel' fawces.
>>30106954
>Okay this one just shows you didn't pay attention in History. They were never going to surrender, military or civilians. Are you familiar with the hastily built aircraft they handed over to civilians to fly into US ships?
and yet we didnt continue fighting just their army we just bombed their two major cities off the face of the earth. yeah, real ethical.
>>30106954
>>tell that to all the civvies that died in Afghanistan
>Mup Da Do Didda the guys hanging around insurgents actively shooting at soldiers dindu nuffin.
>>Vietnam
>MUP DA DOOAOAAAH DDIDIDAAAHHHH ACTIVE FIGHTERS DINDU NUFFIN
hit a nerve on this baby killer. tons of orders were knowingly issued against civilian targets.
>>30106746
I was military, and left the room when the circle jerks started.
Spent plenty of time having meaningful conversations with educated people,
Some of whom also had common sense, which is fundamentally scary to armchair warriors and keyboard commandos.
Even the alcoholics and druggies left over from Vietnam agreed that there were lines that did not get crossed.
But what else can you expect from a bunch of mindless drones?
>>30107050
>he mad lol.
I'm not the guy who lost an argument so badly he doubled down on his stupidity.
>I'm self employed and own over a thousand acres. lol. Sorry you couldnt hack it and had to join the 'speshel' fawces.
And I own my own VIP protection business. How's your debt repayment plan going?
>and yet we didnt continue fighting just their army we just bombed their two major cities off the face of the earth. yeah, real ethical.
Compared to the US Invasion plan of Japan, which was prepared for by the production of enough Purple Heart medals for the estimated casualties.
We're still handing those medals out today.
>hit a nerve on this baby killer. tons of orders were knowingly issued against civilian targets.
Sources, and make sure to only pick ones that had deliberate action to target only civilians (No, not places WITH civilians like that DWB hospital, that had US Special Forces reporting hostile fire left and right from insurgents).
>>30107017
>infantry
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cc8_1197855683
your ill informed anecdotal opinion is discarded.
>>30107013
>>30107013
>Everybody in uniform is dialed in to the rumor mill. It's literally a matter of survival. You should have picked up on that if you spent any time at all around mil people.
objectively false.
>>30107013
>It's called a PCS transfer,
did you miss the part where I said I wasnt talking about that?
>>30107013
>All branches make it crystal clear what the definition of an illegal order is. It's done in boot camp/recruit training. They also define the responsibilities of the service member receiving said illegal order. This is done in language that a 6th grader could follow. The Nuremburg trials and My Lai had that effect on our contemporary mil culture.
I'm sure they pay just as much attention to that as they do the rape and alcohol lectures.
>>30107013
>So your statement that your worldview was quite wide when you were 18 is bullshit, then?
did you even read what I wrote? My age in 1989 is irrelevant to the conversation.
>>30106736
"Well, the population is decimated and the nation is a shadow of its former economic, political, and military might. But at least we stuck it to the libtards!"
>>30107059
even if true you would be an outlier to the majority of the forces.
>>30106867
>you probably had to google that. loling my ass off over here.
No, I read Stranger in a Strange Land in the 70s, when I was in high school. I still envision that big ceramic vase full of money by the front door. That and meditating underwater really grabbed my imagination. I had a goodly collection of his works. Lost most of them over the years, I still might have The Collected Sayings of Lazarus Long around somewhere.
First Heinlein I ever read was Podkayne of Mars. That was before I was in middle school. He did a phenomenal amount of writing for the children's and young adult markets. Iirc, Starship Troopers was a YA offering.
Read Grumbles From Beyond the Grave to get a look at his though processes and the obstacles he had to overcome.
>>30107017
Lotta non-whites in the military, you could bet every damn one of them would pull the trigger on some white rebels
>>30106867
>What exactly has changed that would make people more likely to defect from then till now?
Literacy rates and access to information.
>>30107136
good on you. Definitely one of the best of the classic SciFi authors. Ever read any Clarke or Benford?
>>30107153
access to what information?
Facebook?
Fox news?
all (mainstream) modern sources of information are heavily monitored, censored and controlled by Uncle Samuel. And being able to read and actually reading are two entirely different things.
>>30104644
It's glorious
>>30097386
Civilian spotted
>>30107217
welfare queen with an undeserved sense of superiority spotted.
"thanks for your service"
>>30097319
Not to mention foreign involvement. Before you know it Vlad is teaching insurgent tactics at your local high school while Jackie Chan is going over the finer points of Chinese AA systems. Soviet Flight school pops up at nearby airfields. This war would be one for the ages our shit would get cut up worse than Berlin
>>30097176
The main issue with a fucking 2nd Revolution is leadership... There is no possiblechain of command in this country, Even if General fucking Mattis decided to kick it off what then? Is he just going to go door to door asking for volenteers? does he has a logistical train set up for a country wide revolution, Pay? Food? Ammo and weapons?
The Militias will get cut off and culled becuase they arent a joint force and are too separated. The Military will fucking implode on itself. And the only people that this country religiously follows the every word of is fucking Celebrities. And im not about to grab my fucking rifle and die in a checkpoint shootout en-rout over the calling of Adam Sandler and the Kardashians~
>>30097405
Eternal September at its finest.
>>30107233
HA "undeserved"
Just keep those taxes coming in for us, babe.
"thanks for your service"
>>30107275
ok, ill bite, what have you done that I as a dirty peasant civilian should be thankful for?
>>30107105
>objectively false
Prove it
>did you miss the part where I said I wasnt talking about that?
No. Nor did I miss the part where you listed criteria exactly meeting the definition of a PCS transfer. Don't blame me if you contradict yourself.
>I'm sure they pay just as much attention to that as they do the rape and alcohol lectures.
Strawman. Stick with the program.
> My age in 1989 is irrelevant to the conversation.
You're the one who mentioned it. If it was irrelevant, why did you bring it into the discussion?
>>30107290
what difference does it make? even if >>30107275 is the same anon as >>30107217, the original anon/you is/are still a fucking idiot for thinking there's even the type of coordination or inherent organization in usmil required to come close to accomplishing what >>30097405 said.
>>30107303
>Prove it
dont have to, go talk to any random person in the armed forces
>>30107303
>Strawman. Stick with the program.
how the fuck is that a strawman argument, its a logical parallel.
>>30107303
>No. Nor did I miss the part where you listed criteria exactly meeting the definition of a PCS transfer. Don't blame me if you contradict yourself.
I literally described taking someone and sticking them in the same role on the same base in a different unit. That is not a transfer, that is not a move, that is not a PCS.
>>30107303
>You're the one who mentioned it. If it was irrelevant, why did you bring it into the discussion?
either you or some other anonymous welfare queen brought it up.
>>30107154
Not a huge fan of Clarke. His style just didn't do anything for me. I, Robot was okay, but none of it really stuck with me.
Read a little Benford, not enough to really get into his universe. I was more into Drake, Rosenberg, Laumer, now Ringo and Kratman, and a bunch of others who I can't think of right now.
Oh, and Kipling's Barracks Ballads.
>>30107172
Opinions, not really advancing your point.
>>30107366
>anonymous
Wait you mean people post on this site anonymously and everything and anything you say makes you look like a fucking autist who would be better off swinging from a rope?!
FIDDLESTICKS
>>30107379
>Read a little Benford, not enough to really get into his universe.
would really recommend his collaboration with Clarke. I Read scifi for the concepts that it contains more than anything else and that one has some doozies. http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Infinity-Benford-Gregory/dp/044653059X
would also recommend Clarkes 3001, the final book of the series on the same note.
>>30107358
The last ref should have been to >>30097386
Not the one below it. Hard to differentiate bullshit from bullshit.
>>30107404
you are boring.
>>30107396
>opinions
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/02/05/facebook-censorship-and-the-war-on-free-speech/
http://americanfreepress.net/mainstream-media-censorship-exposed/
insert coin to try again
>>30107050
>I'm self employed and own over a thousand acres
No you don't.
You're just some whiny bitch on the 4chanses.
>>30107466
by the same logic, so are you.
>>30107172
Why did you put parenthesis around (mainstream) like some edgy faggot? Oh wait.
>>30107485
because there are other forms of non controlled communication used by a very small percentage of the population. but you wouldn't know about that
>>30107484
Considering I'm not whining, and you are, there really isn't any logic faglord. Shouldn't you be shooting up a local college? You miss your turn or something?
>>30107496
>but you wouldn't know about that
>>30107497
>the person who isnt resorting to name calling is whining.
Sure.
I'm pretty sure almost all the posts here are the same person.
>>30107520
whining = name calling
>>30107497
>im not whining you are faggot!
Oh my god shut the fuck up and get a job that isnt on par with the fucking post office.
>>30107548
butthurt = butthurt
>>30097818
Sounds like bullshit
>>30107366
>go talk to any random person in the armed forces
Appeal to authority.
>how the fuck is that a strawman argument, its a logical parallel.
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position
>I literally described taking someone and sticking them in the same role on the same base in a different unit. That is not a transfer, that is not a move, that is not a PCS.
PCS stands for Permanent Change of Station. What you've described is precisely that. Besides transferring to a new command, the member would, at a minimum, have to check out of old barracks/lodging and be assigned to new barracks/lodging. At minimum, a half day to check out and walk to the new unit and a half day to check in and get all the forms signed.
>either you or some other anonymous welfare queen brought it up.
In >>30106265 you claimed-
>In 1989 my worldview was pretty wide for an 18 year old
Or was that not you?
>>30107448
Damn. Well there you go, sources to back your opinions. Thank you for reinforcing the point I was getting at in
>>30100321
>>30103639
>>30104040
And
>>30107153
The information is out there and people will find it. Otherwise, links like the ones you provided would be nonexistent.
>>30097386
This was actually mentioned in the Federalist Papers.
It was rejected because it's just silly.
>>30097207
Gr8 b8 m8
>>30097207
Fuck, I didn't know North Koreans had access to 4chan.
