saying that the Romanian Aegis Ashore can be used as an offensive platform?
Yes
For example, the standard missile is an anti air missile built for defense. It can hit ships too.
>>30042081
I suppose in theory since I believe the interceptors are being housed in standard VLS cells you could put tomahawk missiles in then instead, but it'd probably be cheaper and more strategically sound to just send another destroyer into the Mediterranean or Black Sea or Baltic Sea
>>30042081
No. It can only attack inbound targets after all.
My favorite Russian claim is that it somehow threatens their strategic posture when the system can only intercept targets heading into Europe, meaning that Russia is angry that they can't go back to threatening to nuke former Pact countries every other month like clockwork.
>>30042081
They're just salty because this means they can't bully people anymore.
Russia has no friends. Nobody likes Russia, even educated Russians. Their only leverage is threath and this removes that only thing they have.
Of course they're going to fight it.
So will Russia do a strike on that site or just piss and moan?
>>30042165
Piss and moan.
Nobody is dumb enough to actually start a fight over something so stupid.
>>30042081
>Ability to intercept missiles outside the atmosphere
I didn't realize 90s scud clones were '''''outside the atmosphere'''''
>>30042165
In an actual war they would
Fixed AAW sites are piss easy to overwhelm
>>30042142
My favorite American claim is that it's somehow directed against fucking Iran who doesn't have ICBMs capable to reach Europe and won't be able to obtain one in any foreseeable future.
US missile shield in Europe has nothing to do with European security, Americans couldn't care less. The sole purpose of Aegis in Europe is to deny Russia capability of second strike in coming war, therefore the move is offensive in nature. And yeah, there's no doubt that deranged lunatics in Washington will be the first to hit the red button, Russia's defense doctrine assumes the use of nuclear weapons only in the event of existential threat to the state, and it's not like it was Russia who dropped nukes on two cities full of civilians out of sheer impotence to capture them conventionally.
>>30042906
This.
ABM in general are offensive in nature.
To have ABM is like to wear a EOD-vest with hard-plates to a gun-fight, while the other guy has a .22LR.
The guy with the .22LR of course will feel that his deterrence is being degraded, while the EOD-suited guy can now safely pull the trigger first without fear of retribution.
>inb4 b-but russian nukes go over the arctic!
Yeah, and US nukes are still stationed in Europe. These nukes will then be protected by the East European ABM systems, enabling the US to use them against Russia even more safely (after all, it wont be Americans who die there).
And noone said that the US cant just deploy ABM capable ships in the Arctic as well.
In the end, the Russians and the Chinese will work together to further develop their Hypersonic missile-defense busters to counter Washington's lunacy of wanting to end the stability that MAD brought to the world for decades.
Russia should build an ABM system in Iran and claim that it is to protect Iran against ISIS ballistic missiles.
China should build an ABM system on their new islands and claim that it is to protect the fishes against space-borne invaders.
>>30042906
>>30042970
>Genuinely thinking Aegis Ashore and THAAD can really stop a full scale nuclear exchange.
Literally nobody believes this. They're primarily meant to cockblock nations with small amounts of warheads like NK and Iran and force larger nations like Russia and China to expend more warheads per target to ensure destruction.
Why are Russkies butthurt about it?
All they have to do is fire a shitton of cruise missiles at europe but mix the nuclear missiles with the conventional ones. Lets say 1000 Cruise Missiles fired, 950 get conventional warheads. How do you decide which one you intercept?
mix a few hypersonic ones in there too and the 'Defense shield' is useless.
>>30043050
Because it degrades their ability to hit targets. In a nuclear exchange, the goal is to destroy as many enemy nuclear missiles sites, air bases, and 3C centers as possible. When ABM sites are introduced to the equation, you are now forced to expend nuclear or conventional warheads on those as well. The more warheads you require to knock it out, the less you have to spend on your original targets. The more of your original targets are left intact, the better shape your opponent will be in after the exchange for conventional war or political bargaining.
>>30042906
>The sole purpose of Aegis in Europe is to deny Russia capability of second strike in coming war,
Bait, but I'll respond anyway because I'm bored.
Tell me exactly how many boomers are stationed in the Black Sea that this supposed 'second strike' would thwart, as the proposed system sure can't hit anything aimed at the US from anywhere in Russia and can only intercept things traveling over SE Europe.
>>30043157
okay I explain it more simple
>US sits in their ABM bases staring at radar screens
>a fuckton of points going zigzag coming right at them from the russian border
>high speed low drag
>everyone of these little shiny points on the screen could be a nuclear Cruise Missile or a conventional one
>the Radar Operator can't tell which is which (I assume ABM sites don't have enough missiles at once ready to stop such a cruise missile spam)
>literally firing at everything they get a lock on
>nucular cruise missiles slip through to hit the intended targets
>>30043279
>everyone of these little shiny points on the screen could be a nuclear Cruise Missile
>modern cruise missiles
>high altitude
well, maybe for russia
>>30043293
>high altitude
where did I say that?
>>30042906
>"If u join nato we nuke u scandi"
>"fuck you russia"
>missile defence system a go
>"WAH WHY YOU MAKINGS DEFENCE SYSTEM IS OFFENSIVE MOVE YOU CAN NOT DO THIS TO POOR RUSSIA"
EVERY TIME
>>30043050
Because their nuclear capability is vastly overstated what with the trademark russian maintenance and corruption and lies.
>>30042906
>ex ussr people bring out 60 years of atrocities and genocide
>lol butthurt much fuck you nerds
>USA mentions ABM
>butthurt intensifiies to the point of it opening a portal to hell itself
>>30042261
good fucking taste
>>30043355
It's not like the USA keeps forward deployed strategic nuclear weapons in Europe to be used against Russia after all... oh wait. They do and they have since they had enough to send some over the Atlantic.
>>30043279
okay I explain it more simple
compare
>US sits in their radar base
>a fuckton of points going zigzag coming right at them from the russian border
>high speed low drag
>everyone of these little shiny points on the screen could be a nuclear Cruise Missile or a conventional one
>the Radar Operator can't do anything about it
>nuclear cruise missiles hit everything they were originally aimed at
To the situation you described.
The thing isn't completely denying a full-on nuclear exchange, it is to make low scale nuclear exchanges more expensive and complete ones less spread-out to assure destruction.
>>30043421
That's Russia's fault for their aggression.
>period of Russian occupation ended not too long ago
>small countries who can't defend themselves are being threatened by Russia
>receive American hardware and soldiers
Why do Russians not realize that the more they threaten and saber rattle the further they push countries into American influence?
>>30042081
Imagine a raving lunatic swinging a bat around who thinks putting your arms up to protect your head is a hostile act of aggression.
>>30042906
>The sole purpose of Aegis in Europe is to deny Russia capability of second strike in coming war
>second strike
>>30042906
>Iran who doesn't have ICBMs capable to reach Europe and won't be able to obtain one in any foreseeable future.
This is what libtards really believe.
>>30043600
yeah, they'd be nearly useless in a full scale first strike
>>30043535
Because they are niggers that haven't realized that actions have consequences
>>30043535
And every time a communist regime popped up in Latin and South America, it was squashed by American money, advisors, and soldiers. Every country is playing the game here, the US just has a better PR machine.
None of that takes away from the fact that an ABM system bordering your most likely opponent is an aggressive gesture because it degrades the effectiveness of the only military weapon they have that can deter a full blown conventional war.
>>30043535
Because the provocation came before the Russians even responded.
As soon as the Pact was dissolved, former Pact countries couldnt wait to suck American cock and violate all agreements that banned NATO expansion to the East, on grounds that "East Europeans are fed up with the Russian menace and wished to join the NATO".
Guess what? Crimean people also wished to join Russia. Fuck you. If you can pull off shit with that reasoning, Russia can do as well.
>>30043746
Still ignoring that it is a response to Russian behavior.
>>30043749
>and violate all agreements that banned NATO expansion to the East
Things that never existed.
And ignoring why Russia's neighbors were fed up with Russia.
>>30043749
>Guess what? Crimean people also wished to join Russia. Fuck you. If you can pull off shit with that reasoning, Russia can do as well
A vote held at Russian gunpoint that violated Ukrainian law.
>>30043859
>And ignoring why Russia's neighbors were fed up with Russia.
Cant be helped, since Russia was longer the hegemon of that region than America even existed. So what's your suggestion? Completely removing Russia from the map, to satisfy the butthurt of the eastern euros?
I guess I'm spot on with this, as this is exactly the plan that the US and NATO were following, to destroy Russia and to rip out its 'core regions', so that only a powerless rump-state remains that you guys can exploit at your will.
This is the reason why Russia's response came.
>>30043749
>>30043749
>"East Europeans are fed up with the Russian menace and wished to join the NATO".
eastern european here, this maybe incredibly shocking for you, but that is the reason why we are in nato
>>30043878
Hungarian people were also against the US missile defense system, but their corrupt and US-puppet government still went through with it.
>>30043749
Just to point out, an invitation to join NATO has to be extended by unanimous vote of current members for a new state to join. The US and the rest of NATO had the opportunity to mend the east vs west rift with concern to Russia, but instead they alienated Russia further by inviting border states to NATO and then stationing American troops in those countries. Both violated the understanding reached when the USSR dissolved that NATO would not expand eastward, and leave us with the shitstorm we now see in Ukraine along with Russia desperately attempting to look strong in the face of a nearly unified europe.
>>30043898
Well, that's typically stupid of you.
Because the better choice would have been to accept Finlandization and Buffer-state status, instead of joining the Anti-Russian camp.
Now, you are merely a target and additional meat-shield to the Americans.
>implying you can survive even 5 minutes in WWIII.
>>30043898
For what reason?
Just because eastern europeans hate Russia so much, they became so fucking irrational that they would put their own survival at stake to become America/NATO's forward bases?
What is wrong with doing as Austria and Finland did? Are they oppressed by the Russians today or even during Cold War? No, they could even maintain their own political and economic system and have a standing army like any normal country could. The only thing the Russians demanded was that they wouldnt allow NATO to station troops in their countries.
>>30043936
yes cos neutrality ever stopped russians
guess how all of us become vassal states in first place?
better dead than red faggot, you will have to deal with it,
what funny you are not even russian, you are from usa and you somehow managed to mental gymnastic your way into idealizing russians and whats worse soviet union
>>30044007
Neutrality and Buffer-state status, Finlandization, was always accepted by the Russians.
>better dead than red
I guess it cant be helped. You faggots forgot how horrible war can be. I hope you will soon see why being alive and have a neutral relationship with Russia is better than to be dead in service to the Americans.
Someone who says this, is possibly a basement dwelling underage shit as well.
>>30043897
t. Russian victim complex
>>30044043
>Neutrality and Buffer-state status, Finlandization, was always accepted by the Russians.
So Russian puppets, because fuck their sovereignty.
>>30044118
>Finland
>not sovereign
They are literally one of 3 countries in Europe that are beholden to themselves alone, and nobody else.
>>30043928
>and then stationing American troops in those countries
A reaction to Russian behavior.
Are Russians unable to comprehend that their actions have consequences?
>>30044094
A broken country that was ready to give up and become friends of America, received an additional kick into their balls when the victors moved ever closer to the border and supported violent seccession of her peripheral regions.
Seriously, America was the dumb one. If they only waited for 20 more years, the Russians would have given up their nukes voluntarily and became a full US colony.
Putin is pretty much the result of the US habit of kicking the guy who's already lying on the floor bleeding. Russia during the 90s and early 2000s was so full of pro-western fifth columnists, pro-western oligarchs and US NGOs, that it was only a question of time until Russia turned into a western colony.
Why are you guys so stupid? Why the rush? Why didnt you just wait for longer? Instead, your NATO expansion has reminded the Russians of existential threats against the country, and given nationalists like Putin the support their needed to revert the self-enslavement of Russia to Western interests.
I bet it was a dumb Pole in the US government who couldnt wait to get his vendetta on the Russians. Oh wait...
>>30044043
ironically you complain how everyone are bullies russia while at same time threatening with war
seems you have to DEAL WITH IT
>>30044153
We appear to have reached the bargaining phase.
>>30044146
Is that why Finnish politicians had to be approved by Russia for decades?
>>30043421
Maybe if they hadn't killed people in the high tens of millions and acted like giant twats, never held any of their promises or never paid off their dept after losing wars, didn't consistently threaten to nuke and destroy everyone who isn't russia and didn't invade a peaceful neighbouring country for wanting to join EU, they'd perhaps have a few allies.
Don't cry because your nation is a little petty bitch and gets treated as such.
After all they've done, it would merely be karma if they got nuked to shit and back.
>>30044162
Revisionist history at its finest.
>>30044175
It is not that Russia wasnt invaded over 9000 times in history by the same faggot little countries who now hide behind America's legs.
>>30042081
>saying that the Romanian Aegis Ashore can be used as an offensive platform?
VLS is universal. Russians don't know what inside. It can be SM missile. It can be Tomahawk. US didn't provide any procedure for inspection.
>>30043749
You sound mad.
Maybe you shouldn't have genocided and deported the shit out of everyone around you.
And crimea was given to Ukraine as a part of the agreement.
All crimea is is yet another proof that russia can't be trusted with anything and ABM needs to be placed when russia follows through on it's threat with nuking eastern europe and scandi
So no wonder your mad because your shitty 3rd world dictatorship saber rattling is making threats it can't even afford financially.
>>30044190
Whar's revisionist about it?
Do you know how Russia was during the 90s and how Pro-American?
Now, compare 90s with today. How could a country that was so massive pro-western back then, turn into a strategic enemy of the West again in merely 20 years? Hmmm....
>>30044196
>well they were mean back before 95% of us were alive ;_;
>so we can be mean now
Seriously though, you realize this is why Russia can't compete with the US.
They spend way too much time dickwaving to distract the populace from their own internal failings, and all it does is encourage NATO to spend more on defense and let in more countries.
We may be stupid, but we're not stupid enough to fall for the old Sudetenland gambit a second time.
>>30043936
>survive even 5 minutes in WWIII
wew lad, the Russia has been targeting eastern european lands with nuclear weapons since the 1960s -- lands that were in the Warsaw Pact at the time. At least these peoples can now enjoy a better standard of living in peacetime, than to continue with shitty Russia-tier lives.
>>30044214
>And crimea was given to Ukraine as a part of the agreement.
An agreement done by the same government that 'genocided and deported the shit out of everyone'.
Now, you say that such an agreement, that was merely done for internal reorganization even, is worth toilet paper?
Sure you have some selective reasoning.
>>30044214
>And crimea was given to Ukraine as a part of the agreement.
No it didn't.
>3rd world
You don't even know meaning of this.
>>30042906
>and it's not like it was Russia who dropped >nukes on two cities full of civilians out of sheer >impotence to capture them conventionally.
Dickwads actually believe this.
>>30043897
Let me get this straight, Russia is an innocent country that has never done anything wrong as is under assault by NATO just because it exists?
Everyone knows you're lying out of your teeth and everyone around Russia has every right to be afraid of a random invasion. Russia knows this the best hence why they get butthurt when people actually don't want to get fucked over by a country they have a long history of being fucked over by
>>30044217
I love Russians.
>try communism
>this is a great system, it'll keep working if we just try harder
>communism continues for 70 years
>try democracy
>OH GOD GET IT OFF GET IT OFF
>bring in another KGB strongman inside of a decade
No shit you're going to have instability, your economy just crashed, and all the profitable, good countries you had under your yoke managed to get away.
Now they're going back to Tsarism, because that's better to the Russian mind than suffering the indignity of admitting failure.
>>30043897
Maybe Russia should stop trying to dominate all of their neighbors and threatening to nuke them?
>>30043749
>East Europeans are fed up with the Russian menace and wished to join the NATO
Actually this is exactly what happened.
>vatniks
>taking an actual fact and putting it in quotation marks to turn it into a lie
This is spiralling out of control
>>30044162
Yeah honestly American aggression and posturing pretty much pushed Russian nationalism. Putin could never survive in 90s Russia. We are where we are today all because of America's fear of losing its hegemony, which coincidentally never would have been a concern had they decided to go the sneaky Jew route instead of trying to bully their way through.
>>30044234
>>30044235
>Russia agrees to respect territorial integrity of Ukraine in exchange for them giving up nukes
>they give up nukes
>20 years later
>WE EMPIRE NOW KOKOL
And this is precisely why Russia has no friends other than contrarians and vatniks.
>>30044268
Frankly, I'm shocked they haven't started posting yoba yet
>ITT vatniks believe NATO is like CCCP where people are forced into annexation
>Dumb vatniks who hate freedom because it turned russia into the 3rd world shithole it is today can't comprehend that people would voluntarily join an alligance
>>30044251
Russia is a great power. Russia has the right to secure her security with all means possible, just as the US had to right to invade Mexico and take away parts of their northern provinces and turn them into what is nowadays called Texas, or to evict the European powers from the Gulf of Mexico according to the Monroe Doctrine.
The difference is, that all these little shit countries in the east, used to attack Russia throughout the ages, and were used and let themselves be used by Madmen like Napoleon and Hitler in their quest to conquer Russia.
Russia was badly burnt by you little shits, which is why Mr. Vatnik will, again, threaten to nuke you to oblivion if you let another would-be-conqueror, America, use you as a springbord to attack Russia.
>>30044196
Yeah I know, no wonder you're so scared when you got defeated by fucking ESTONIA who was fighting a 2 front war
>>30044315
>make an argument that boils down to "might makes right"
>whine because you don't have might
>Russia is prepared to defend herself by starting a war that can only end in her total extermination
Seriously though, most people don't have fetal alcohol syndrome.
>>30044234
>>30044235
Wow can you vatniks even get your cover stories together
>>30044235
>>3rd world
>You don't even know meaning of this.
Actually you might be right seeing as russia is doing worse than many 3rd world countries according to pic related
>>30044229
>why Russia can't compete with the US.
Because Russia is vulnerable from all directions, and the US is playing easy mode, protected by two oceans and having no land threats.
>>30044285
>Putin could never survive in 90s Russia
Putin is the hand picked successor of the guy who ran Russia in the 90's.
>>30044357
Didn't seem to stop China.
Maybe they aren't complete fuckwits.
>>30044315
>The difference is, that all these little shit countries in the east, used to attack Russia throughout the ages,
Poor Russia.. Dindu nuffin.
WE HAVE REACHED STAGE 4 >>30044166
>>30044338
It really does. Look at USA's history in latin and south america.
Million dollar question: why had Russia not been invited to NATO at any point in the last 60 years? Would that not solve 90% of the butthurt Euro problems with Russia?
>>30044288
Dude, you are an idiot. Crimea transfer to Ukraine in Soviet time and agreement about nukes are absolutely different thing. When you're talking about Crimea being given under that agreement you're just wrong. Crimea was some kind of Texas - the HAD right to leave if they wanted to. That was in Ukrainian constitution and other laws.
>>30044315
>used by Madmen like... Hitler
The mental gymnastics Russians use to justify their own nation's open alliance with Adolf Hitler, everyone.
>>30043936
Their face when Russians made agreements with Adolf Hitler to promote more of these 'Finlandization' and 'Buffer-states.' That is right, modern day ape-minded Russians still believe elements of their ignoble alliance with Hitler are still appropriate.
>>30044338
>Russia is prepared to defend herself by starting a war that can only end in her total extermination
The war was started by a certain Brzizinski or some piece of shit pole, who had a personal vendetta with Russia and used his influence in the US political establishment to formulate the strategy, that Russia needs to be partitioned into rump-states and forever colonized by the West to provide the security the Polish people wished for.
He can try. But this will end with war that noone will survive in the end.
So, why do you chose this route, instead of the Austrian route of neutrality?
>>30044360
The nationalist mentality was not strong enough support anything like the current polices.
>>30044350
You just continue to proof that you have no idea what does "3d world" mean.
>>30044315
>how dare these little countries get conquered by bigger powers
>how dare these bigger powers use those little coutnries resources to invade russia
>we are so fed up with this
>lets kill all the rich people
>lets murder all the trained officers
>lets conquer all the neighbouring countries
>lets murder more people than ever existed in the little countries around us
>lets collapse since we are stupid and wasted all our money to keep soviet union afloat
>what everyone we ever tried to destroy is flocking into an defence alligeance against us, we must nuke them!
You are a petty little bitch.
You ever wonder why every time you go on vacation you have to pay 3x more for anything than everyone who is not russian
>>30044390
>It was started by some pole and America!
>That's why Russia invaded a sovereign nation because of America!
>>30044382
>Crimea was some kind of Texas - the HAD right to leave if they wanted to. That was in Ukrainian constitution and other laws.
No, it wasn't.
And Texas has the right to breakup into smaller states, not to secede.
>>30044326
Vatniks BTFO
Why is America so scared of losing its hegemony that it has to stir shit all over the world? Honestly mutual destruction is a welcome solution if it means the end of the US.
>>30044376
>Look at USA's history in latin and south america.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
>why had Russia not been invited to NATO at any point in the last 60 years?
NATO spent the Yeltsin years trying to get Russia to join the team.
>Formal contacts and cooperation between Russia and NATO started in 1991, within the framework of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (later renamed Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council) and were further deepened as Russia joined the Partnership for Peace programme on June 22, 1994.[6]
>On 27 May 1997, at the NATO summit in Paris, Nato and Russia signed the Founding Act on Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security,[7] a road map for would-be NATO-Russia cooperation. The parties stated they did not see each other as adversaries, and, ″based on an enduring political commitment undertaken at the highest political level, will build together a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic area on the principles of democracy and cooperative security″.
Russia had the opportunity for stability, security, and power but they had it stolen away from them by the same batch of oligarchs and spooks that have been haunting them since time immemorial.
We both know that they don't have the balls to follow through on any of their threats, because that would stop them from living their current lives as 21st century tsars.
Russia will continue to suffer, everyone who can will scramble away, and Russian foreign policy will continue to consist of political theater intended for domestic consumption.
>>30044365
China had the right idea of not killing themselves by shedding off their only working government that they achieved in the last 200 years. Unlike Russia, they didnt commit political suicide, but actually massacred the protesters who wanted that suicide to happen.
Instead, they used the unified and strong government that survived to rally all productive forces of the country to initiate economic reforms and to become a successful capitalist country, while still being ruled by autocracy that enables them to withstand US attempts to infiltrate their political system with jews and NGOs to control them.
Russia's only mistake was that they did not follow the Tiananmen Route.
>>30044402
We've had this argument before
Go ahead, make your move. We've allready won since we don't live in a run down shithole whose currency is tied to its only export
>>30044451
>US attempts to infiltrate their political system with jews
Roman Abramovich was always the one with his hand up Putin's backside and he has no connection to the US at all :3
>>30044451
Russia didn't have the option.
China is 93% Han Chinese.
Ethnic Russians in the USSR actually wanted the USSR to continue, it's just that everyone ran for their lives and the USSR didn't have the resources to keep them by force.
They only option they had by the Gorbachev years was bow out peacefully or accept total state failure.
>>30044450
This was hardly an invitation to let Russia into NATO. At least not as an intact and unified country of that land-mass.
There were many parallel security treaties aimed at eurasian and pan-european stability that Russia initiated, but were ignored by the NATO countries, as the only thing they ever wanted was to dismember Russia's Core Regions.
>>30044350
I've never seen ANY vatniks respond to that image.
Could it be that it BTFO's them so hard that their only course of action is to ignore it.
>>30044326
>google it
>MFW it's correct
holy shit how humiliating
>>30044489
Why?
Russia had like 20,000 nuclear warheads.
A disintegration of Russia would threaten NATO security vastly more than the USSR ever did.
No NATO country would sign a defense pact with Russia as long as Chechnya remained at war, but mutual cooperation was something that Western policy makers were always desperate for.
>>30044360
China is still behind Russia in many areas of technology and engineering (nukes, subs, space launchers, aircraft and especially jet engines, probably nuclear reactors, etc.) , despite much more powerful economy.
>actually thinking that aegis ashore can shoot down missiles
holding an opinion like this indicates that you should be seppuku'd
>>30044489
Name them.
>>30044510
Russian disintegration was never that much of a threat to the West, just as ISIS is also not a threat to the West today. For once, because the dismemberment of Russia's Core Regions saw not the total disintegration of Russia proper, but the dismemberment of all critical Russian areas that allow them to project power, such as the Black Sea region, the Kaukasus that was Russia's natural barrier, and the baltic region.
Without these regions, Russia would have been reduced to a rump state that is unable to do anything anymore.
The Ukraine coup fits into this scheme.
>>30044490
Normal criteria of development do not apply to Russia because of many decades of command economy. Russia is not a 1st or 3rd world country, but an amalgam of both, in contrast of most other countries which are more uniformly developed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEjWlFsneqw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qSxXFQ9-NE
>russia
>>30044577
>Russian disintegration was never that much of a threat to the West,
Are you insane?
>>30044577
I'm going to need you to define "core regions."
Because if it's the same thing as "sovereign states that don't want to be a part of your country any more" NATO isn't stupid enough to start shit there, that's entirely a Russian failure.
>>30044512
Chinese military technology in general took a large step back as far as the 17th century, and they were so hard beaten down by the Imperial powers in the 19th and 20th century, that they took 150 years to recover.
>>30044603
Look at Ukraine's split off from Russia.
Ukraine was a core region of the USSR and had thousands of nukes. And every single of those nukes were taken back to Russia in the end. What threat does this present to the West?
I would actually argue the oppossite. Nuclear armed split-off states of Russia would have benefitted the West much more. Since every single of them apparently couldnt wait any longer to suck your cocks amirite?
>>30044450
>whataboutism
Copout.
>peace initiative separate from NATO membership
As long as NATO exists and Russia is not a member state, the two will be in conflict. Any outside peace initiative ignores that. Invitation to NATO can only be issued by a unanimous vote by current members, plus any stipulation that any member chooses to give. No invitation was ever issued, so here we are with Russia becoming increasingly nationalistic and using force to secure her borders since the olive branch failed miserably in the 90s and NATO took the opportunity of Russian weakness post breakdown to secure bases on Russia's borders.
>>30044605
Core Regions are all regions that are valuable for Russia to maintain their Great Power status.
So, not some shitty province behind the Urals, but valuable regions that provides access to sea-lanes, critical passages, natural barriers etc.
Read this for better understanding of Russia's critical defense needs and why those regions are vital for its survival.
https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/geopolitics-russia-permanent-struggle
>>30044648
>L-L-LOOK YOU DID IMMORAL THINGS TOO
>tactic admission that what you're doing is wrong and should be stopped
>As long as NATO exists and Russia is not a member state, the two will be in conflict
Why?
The EU exists, accounts for 17 trillion dollars in GDP, and the US isn't part of it.
The US has no problem with this.
Japan, which actually declared war on the US, became the world's second largest economy.
The US had no problem with this.
France pulled out of NATO and established their own independent nuclear command.
The US had a problem with this, but only because it might help the Russians.
Maybe the problem isn't with countries in general, but specifically countries that behave aggressively and use saber rattling as a mechanism to satisfy their populace.
I can't recall the US ever threatening to nuke Russia at any point in the last 20 years. I can recall the inverse happening quite a few times.
>>30043355
lel
They are a sneaky way to build forward bases, that would otherwise violate treaties about not placing troops there, in advance.
>>30044688
>everyone in the region hates us, because we treat them like garbage
>it's okay, we have the right to subjugate our neighbors, as long as it protects us from these enemies we made for ourselves
It simply isn't going to work.
As a foreign policy, this is doomed to failure, because NATO is stronger than Russia, and everyone knows that the people running Russia have billions of dollars in ill-gotten gains and immunity from the law.
If having soldiers put duct tape over their unit batches and go kill some poor son of a bitch across the border keeps the proles in line, they'll do that, but they'd never do anything that puts them seriously in danger.
Enjoy Macedonia being a part of NATO.
>>30044718
>montenegro
Shit I'm tired.
Look at all them spelling mistakes.
>>30044730
>negro
das racis
>>30044638
>thousands of nukes
You mean about 1700.
> Ukraine's split off from Russia.
Ukraine did not split off from Russia. It split following the disintegration of the Soviet Union.
While NATO was fine with the disintegration of the USSR, the disintegration of RUSSIA (one of the constituent republics of the USSR) is entirely different and undesirable.
It is interesting that you keep confusing Russia and the Soviet Union.
>>30044693
Russia, because of history and geography, is naturally paranoid (rightfully) of potential invasions. And the most vulnerable area to invasion is precisely Europe.
>>30044794
>be killing the time until summer classes start up arguing politics with vatniks
>the motherfucking Dos Equis guy of /k/ shows up
>>30044794
And why is that more undesirable than disintegrated USSR republics?
Because you think that some Ural-Russian state would use their share of the nukes to sell them to the ISIS?
This shit isnt going to happen and you know that.
A disintegrated Russia will become many smaller states where each of them would race to suck off America.
>>30044805
Russia has no right to be paranoid about a potential invasion as it has worked very hard for 70 years to make everyone around them afraid of being potentally invaded by russia.
Russia has always been the aggressor to smaller less powerful countries, a bully.
Everyone around them hates them.
Russians not living in russia are out of control, committing nationalist hate crimes in countries they call home because they are not russia.
I've had two female friends get beaten and hospitalized on two different new years because they weren't speaking russian in a country that is not russia.
Russia needs a lesson in humility.
>>30044817
America has nothing to offer even to the countries of Central Asia. If anything, all this legion of nuclear states will become Chinese puppets.
>>30044805
I understand this, but I have no value for my own time, so sometimes I try to talk sense into them and remind them that Europeans are total pussies these days.
I think the actual reason Putin intervened in Ukraine was one part "this is what happens to those who resist" one part Malvinas style distraction war, and one part trying to regain a lucrative vassal state.
Either way, it's sure as hell not going to enhance Russia's security in any way.
>>30044843
>America has nothing to offer even to the countries of Central Asia.
Well, they tried. And some of these shithole countries even hosted an US base. Good thing that the US was already overstretched by then and China and Russia were cooperating thru the SCO that the US shall never make a return to central asia.
America's endgame is to have Russia disintegrate and have bases in every single of the successor states.
>>30044839
>Sob histories.
You are on /k/ nobody gives a fuck.
>>30044843
What does the US want in Central Asia.
All we really cared about was bases for our war in Afghanistan, and we got that.
There's oil, but we have a shitload of that already.
>>30044873
Prevent these from falling to the Chinese. The worst geopolitical nightmare for the US is China controlling all the resources of Russia, one way or another.
>>30044805
>Russia, because of history and geography, is naturally paranoid (rightfully) of potential invasions
>Everyone around russia is paranoid of an random russian invasion
>Russia tries to prove they would never do that by randomly invading a country next to russia
>Everyone digs in and starts sharpening beyonets
>RUSSIA DIDNDU NUFFIN Y ALL THIS AGGRESION!? RUSSIA HAS EVERY RIGHT TO BE AFRAID!!!!!!!!
>>30044817
>A disintegrated Russia
Lacks the ability to secure its nuclear arsenal.
>A disintegrated Russia
Means two dozen petty states armed with nuclear weapons bickering constantly.
>A disintegrated Russia
Means higher oil prices due to the collapse of Russian oil industry into several independent fiefdoms.
If you think that the US, let alone NATO, thinks that a collection of failed states armed with nuclear weapons fighting over the remains of an empire is a favorable state of affairs, you are brutally insane.
The collapse of the Soviet Union was fine because the resulting states were largely able to sustain themselves.
A disintegrated Russia would be anything but that.
A strong, democratic Russia, allied with the West, open to investment, was what the West wanted.
>>30044579
you do know russia by definition is a 2nd world country
>>30044390
I don't get it. If Russian so smart and Pole so dumb, how does Poland keep making Russia look so stupid?
>>30044402
Anon, please, stop thinking you're living in 2d world. Half dozen color coded hot chinks aren't just going to show up and start competing for your dick.
>>30044891
At the current rate, the US' and NATO's provocation against Russia will end in exactly that: A closer Russo-Chinese relationship:
Now, Russia's even providing fresh water to China's dry western provinces.
https://www.rt.com/business/341693-russia-supply-water-china/
To all Poles: How does it feel, having driven the Russians so much into a corner that they are now actually helping the Chinese to become stronger?
You betrayed your 'white, western race' more by antagonizing Russia, than by embracing them.
>>30044903
This argument is fucking retarded. I know the history of 1-2-3 worlds terms, the fact is TODAY, they are used only as synonyms for developing/developed country. The term 2nd world is obsolete and not used anymore.
>>30044922
I await to see which one stabs the other in the back first. Nothing good ever comes of two highly expansionist states bordering one another.
>>30044900
>Lacks the ability to secure its nuclear arsenal.
US bases in that country will secure them.
>Means two dozen petty states armed with nuclear weapons bickering constantly.
US bases in that country will secure them. And US will be the hegemon there that keeps peace between both countries.
>Means higher oil prices due to the collapse of Russian oil industry into several independent fiefdoms.
Implying that's bad. Oil is already at oversupply and Saudis wouldnt mind higher oil prices to fund dem programs, for dem ISIS, Al-Nusra and shit.
>A strong, democratic Russia, allied with the West, open to investment, was what the West wanted.
Bullshit.
A strong democratic Russia would only have Russia's own interest in mind.
What you really mean is a weak and democratic Russia that is infiltrated by your fifth columnists and bought off oligarchs that sell out their own country to western interests.
Holy shit, I suggest you read your Mearshheimer and learn about Neo-Realism, or why 'strong and independent democratic states' cannot be at peace with each other.
>>30044867
>vatnik says
>>30044390
>Some guy had vandetta on poor russia!
>>30044376
>Russia never get invite to nato! HOw cruel and mean!
>>30044315
>Waah russia got FUCKEd by little shit countries around it including being ANHALLIATED by fucking ESTONIA
>>30044285
>Waah america is agressive and a jew bully
>>30044196
>waah poor little stupid russia always gets invaded
>>30044162
>waah russia wanted to be friends but got bullied
>>30044043
waah how dare you dislike us, we russians will torture you and your family to death, hui
>>30043897
>waah everyone wants to destroy russia
>>30043749
waah everyone betrayed russia
I could go fucking on, but its funny how you are not even able to properly threaten because we all know how big of a paper tiger your shithole of a country is.
All you have are gay ass weak sob stories.
You are a piece of shit.
>>30044963
This wont happen.
Both China and Russia hate the West more than they hate each other, latter of which is getting weaker by the day, as US provocations against both countries continue.
China provides Russia with the trade opportunities and investments they need, while Russia provides China with an secured resource supply that will even survive total american naval blockade of China.
Both nations literally need each other more than ever before.
>>30044896
>implying Europeans haven't been invading Russia since "Russia" was Muscovy and a bunch of squabbling city-states
But yes, keep claiming that this all started with Russian aggression and isn't more of the same conflict that's been going on and off for the past 800 years.
>>30044989
>that salty propaganda
That's all you chinks and ruskies have, you can't even make a fucking aircraft engine.
>>30044963
If there's problem, it will brew in Central Asia where Chinese economy and Russian political economy could eventually clash (not for now).
Unless Siberia becomes green paradise, the Chinese migration to Siberia will remain nothing more than a myth.
>>30045015
>economy
I meant hegemony.
>>30044989
>Russia becomes China's Canada
FTFY
>>30045004
Interesting post. Let's read what your own people think about your little sob story
>>30044867
>>30044967
Dear God, it's become so rectal ravaged that it can no longer spell.
>>30045004
I love how you can't come up with anything that happened in the last 50 years.
If Americans thought like Russians, we'd still be angry over the French and Indian War.
>>30045004
Except most of today's political climate in eastern europe is a direct result of Russia being total assholes in the post-WWII era. You can't just forcefully occupy half a continent and then act surprised when the locals harbor major resentment toward you.
>>30044989
They need each other for now, yes. But I can definitely see them playing sneaky border games with each other eventually. You don't get to the top in either country by being nice and principled.
>>30045015
Even Central Asia isnt so much of a problem right now, as China is integrating Russia into the New Silk Road project and give them huge cuts from the profits, while remaining at stand-off distance to all politically related things, leaving that area to the Russians entirely.
>>30043582
Nice description of NATO, t b h.
>>30045031
>get btfo
>lol why so butthurt
Like clockwork
>>30045038
Not everyone has the luxury of being protected and enriched by the Atlantic and the Pacific.
>>30044966
>US bases in that country
At what expense?
The post cold war was the time of the peace dividend. You really think that at the end of the Cold War, given the choice between drawing down its bases overseas (as happened in reality) and canceling weapons programs, and instead building a vast new network of overseas bases?
You really think that the US said to itself "You know, the idea of a secure Russia as an ally sucks. You know what would be great? If the whole thing would collapse. Then in the years it takes us to get funding, build logistical networks, bases, and retrain our forces, we can wonder what is going on over there with all those nations arguing over who controls what oil refinery and point thermonuclear weapons at each other."
You REALLY think that?
>A strong democratic Russia would only have Russia's own interest in mind.
Considering that a strong, democratic Russia's interests would align with the wests, that would have been a good thing.
As it is, Russia's interests align with the interests of its oligarchs, rather than the interests of it's people.
>>30045046
>fucking up foreign relations so bad that even your people become mentally ill
wew
>>30042906
holy shit this is gold
are you some kind of retard messiah
or a troll messiah?
>>30045043
>They need each other for now, yes. But I can definitely see them playing sneaky border games with each other eventually. You don't get to the top in either country by being nice and principled.
And why should they do that? Just to please the Americans, who would like to see two of their biggest rivals killing each other? How convenient.
But that's not happening.
Pic; this is what a Russian border-guard at the sino-russian border looks like.
Both country's elites deeply regret their past irrational and ideology-based rivalry that played into America's hand and noone else. And history since the 90s show, China and Russia were always on the same side in all diplomatic questions in the UN and elsewhere.
>>30044966
>Mearshheimer
Sorry, I don't read moronic. Can you translate?
>>30042906
>>30042970
>>30043395
>>30043615
>>30044236
Shills or useful idiots? I wonder.
>>30045068
>Pic; this is what a Russian border-guard at the sino-russian border looks like
so let me get this straight russian forces are either so underfunded they can't pay a dude to stand guard or they are so undermotivated and poorly trained they would go AWOL and ignore their duties?
What a shithole of a country with a joke of an army.
>>30044989
And yet both are absolutely reliant upon the West for trade and investment.
Even relatively minor Western sanctions of Russia has the country running out of bread and plummeting closer to poverty every second. On the otherhand, western consumers love this because oil is cheaper now than it has ben in years.
China isn't exactly the most stable either, nor do I think they're willing to risk their best export markets for what is effectively a country throwing a tantrum because no one takes it seriously anymore.
>>30045053
>At what expense?
>The post cold war was the time of the peace dividend. You really think that at the end of the Cold War, given the choice between drawing down its bases overseas (as happened in reality) and canceling weapons programs, and instead building a vast new network of overseas bases?
America built several new bases during that time of "peace dividend", last but not least in Eastern Europe. And that during a time when Russia practically have given up being a superpower.
>Considering that a strong, democratic Russia's interests would align with the wests, that would have been a good thing.
Democratic Russia demands you to get the fuck out with the Aegis Ashore from Romania, because they dont buy your shit. What happens? Are Russians not democratic anymore, because they defy your will?
Please. Read some books and stop drinking that koolaid about how "democracies wont fight each other".
What that retarded, Fukuyama-esque, theory actually describes is how American puppets never fight each other.
>>30045046
This is from porn isn't it? Nobody wears clothes like that outside of porn.
>>30045068
It's like you've completely forgotten about the last time Russia decided to trust a country run by a highly expansionist dictator that had similar goals and interests.
>>30045097
Sibera remains a backwater region. It doesn't matter. The size alone and weather is protection enough. It would cripple the Chinese logistics. The place is the biggest buffer area on the entire planet.
>>30045097
If China was a threat, and it was during the 60s all the way to the end of the Cold War, Russia had a million troops deployed along the border.
If Russia was still concerned about China, just as they are concerned about NATO, they would still have at least a working border security along the sino-russian border.
But they didnt. And they wont, because China is not a threat to Russia in the minds of all Russian elites, aside of the few that either drink racist koolaid or are paid by the West to piss off Russia's actually most reliable ally in the post-cold-war era.
The wet dream of the US was always that both baddies, China and Russia, kill each other in a convenient way.
But guess what? That wont happen. Sorry. They arent dumb enough.
>>30042906
>dropped nukes on two cities full of civilians out of sheer impotence to capture them conventionally.
>implying we didn't warn them
>implying operation downfall wouldn't kill more soldiers and even more civilians in the long run
>implying the nip bastards didn't deserve it
WEW
>>30045134
>drink racist koolaid or are paid by the West to piss off Russia's actually most reliable ally in the post-cold-war era.
Racist coolaid seems to run in the veins of all vatniks. Russia is a faschist shithole
>>30045134
At the height of the Cold War, Russia actually had the money and manpower to maintain a million man army on the Chinese border. Problem is, Russia lost that war pretty hard.
>>30045143
>Implying it didn't save them from soviet occupation that would've sent them back to stone age, instead of american one that made them one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world
>>30045053
>interests of it's people
Russian people don't like the West and Western values. If we suddenly made Russia fully democratic starting next week, people would vote for largely the same politicians that are in power today.
There are quite a few people who dislike Putin, but mostly because they think he is TOO TAME. Public support for pro-western liberal opposition is in low single digits.
>>30045143
cmon man, don't reply to guys like that. not worth the time it takes to prove him wrong.
>>30045168
This.
It's people are too dumb and they think living in squalor drinking vodka and fistfighting in tracksuits is the hight of living quality and west has it worse.
>>30045165
That too. Though it'd be hilarious to see a post-communist Japan that looks like latvia
>>30045106
>America built several new bases
Nothing compared to what they would have had to build.
>Democratic Russia demands you to get the fuck out with the Aegis Ashore from Romania, because they dont buy your shit. What happens? Are Russians not democratic anymore, because they defy your will?
Democratic Russia is part of the missile defense program. Democratic Russia doesn't care because Democratic Russia doesn't need to preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations.
> stop drinking that koolaid about how "democracies wont fight each other".
I have an idea. How about you stop putting words in my mouth.
You can start there. I never said Democracies never fight. In fact, democracies often fight because they represent the will of the people, and the will of the people is often for war.
>Russian people don't like the West and Western values.
Incorrect.
The Russian people think that the crap they saw in the 1990's was western values when it was just massive corruption by its ruling party.
They have never seen Western Values because the powers that rule them never let it be seen.
>>30045176
Yes, maybe we'd not have all that cancerous garbage anime and poorly written edgy jap garbage games
>>30045158
The sino-russian split during cold war was mainly because of dumb ideological differences by two madmen, Mao and Stalin. There were no fundamental strategic rivalries or even ethnic hate (hell, half of Russia's far east people are looking exactly the same as Chinese).
The fact that it took an orchestrated "split" to pull both countries apart, done by both Stalin and Mao because both had to compare who had the bigger balls in the communist world, while only days before Russian engineers provided MiGs and S-75s to China (China was actually the first nation to score a SAM shootdown in the world, with that same S-75), shows that both nations had nothing between them in the first place.
>>30045214
>shows that both nations had nothing between them in the first place.
Wow totally expects why they never had a war between them, right?
Dumb vatnik scum
>>30045175
Russian people's worldview is generally quite similar to the worldview of /pol/ (except the attitudes towards socialism and abortions). That's why they both don't like modern West.
>>30045194
>Democratic Russia doesn't need to preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations.
>the will of the people is often for war.
What if the will of the people is to "preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations"? By the way, it totally is.
How powerful would be the EU, or equivalent, with Russia in it?
>>30045231
>It's okay that russians are faschist scumbags that are paranoid about everyone because there's a subforum on 4chan that is filled with the exact same trash!
>>30045255
I never said if it was ok or not, just stated a fact.
>>30045249
Propably weaker since they'd have to spend all their money to get russia to stop being a 3rd world underdeveloped shithole
>>30045249
>Suddenly the EU has nuclear worth it of a genuine Superpower at no expense.
>>30045249
There are significant synergies between Russia's and Germany's economies. Resources and Industry.
>>30045245
>What if the will of the people is to "preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations"? By the way, it totally is.
I'm going to stop because there is nothing more that I could add to this.
And everyone else in the thread, stop for a few moments, and read this, mull it over, and think about it's ramifications.
And you, >>30045245, thank you for proving my point so much more effectively than I ever could.
>>30045280
Oppie with the fucking headshot.
/k/'s most based tripfag
>>30045280
if they really wanted to protect their sphere of influence they'd stop acting like agressive children and make good on everyone they have wronged.
Invading surrounding nations and threning to nuke everyone reduces russian sphere of influence, while free trade relations with europe would make the nation prosper.
Right now russia is collapsing since nobody wants to trade with them, their sphere of influence consists of "do what we say or we turn of gas during winter"
Russia has nothing more to offer to world than gas. It's not advanced enough for electronics industry, it has never made a single car worth shit, it can't produce enough food etc.
They're practically worthless without gas, just like most of middle east. With their recent actions they have undermined themselves
Europe has no qualms about doing a deal with Turkey’s authoritarian ruler, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, when his help is needed to resolve the refugee crisis. It will just as easily do a deal with Putin. It hasn’t done so yet in part because of U.S pressure.
>>30044989
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha the vatniks have fallen so far that they have to align themselves with the slant eyes because the rest of the white people in the world see them for the shit heads they are.
>>30045194
>Democratic Russia is part of the missile defense program. Democratic Russia doesn't care because Democratic Russia doesn't need to preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations.
Americans really believe that? Holy shit.
So, you believe a democratic Russia is OK about seccessionist movements and encroachment? Or do you think mad Islamists in Chechnya will somehow not wage Jihad and declare independence if Russians offered them concessions? That sure worked for you in Iraq and Afghanistan, which was invaded erm- "Freed" by democratic America.
Well is Spain a democratic nation or not? If yes, why are they so against Catalan independence? Only undemocratic nations are not OK with respecting the will of 'other nations' (that the Catalans, undoubtly, are), amirite?
You Americans really believe that turning the world into democracies will bring world peace, right?
Ok, how about democratic Argentine still wanting back the Falklands? Or democratic Japan still wanting the Dokdo islands from South Korea? Or democratic Taiwan wanting the Diaoyu Islands from Japan as well? Or how democratic Russia (yes, deal with it) is still getting boxed in by democratic (doubtful) America, despite not being communist anymore?
Democracy solves all disputes, right?
It solves so many problems, that half of Europe are electing Nationalist and Authoriarian parties again. It is kek-worthy that a nation that hated the Russians so much, like Hungary, voted for a certain Victor Orban, who actually wants closer relationship with Russia and an 'illiberal democracy'. Kek will you respect the "will of the people" if it does not fit into your strategic agenda? Or will you now go on and provide evidence that all these aforementioned nations are somehow "not democratic enough"?
Whatever. This sort of American shitty, ideology-laden reasoning is thankfully being BTFO everyday in the real world.
>>30045525
That's your comeback, faggot?
If Russia doenst play your game and dont want to be your slave, you merely call "come back white man" and "dont mess with slants" and expect the dumb Russian to come back crawling to you, after you have stabbed them so many times in their back?
This shit is arrogance at the finest.
Contray to popular believe, the Chinese never stabbed Russia in their backs. Even the Sino-Soviet Split wasnt seen as betrayal, but more of a tragedy caused by two irrational dictators.
Seriously. If NATO and USA was a bit more like China, maybe we wouldnt have this discussion now.
>>30045249
bretty powerful, but EU-cucks will never realize it
>>30045374
Erdogan doesn't regularly threaten to nuke European countries as a matter of course and largely sticks within his own borders. Plus, Turkey is a NATO member.
>>30043320
how else do you think a radar aimed upwards looking for ballistic targets is going to see a cruise missile?
>>30045631
>Implying western Europe won't backstab you, again.
>>30045572
We never said democracy is the answer to everything. It has its faults like every other system of government. It's just that the west is generally more willing to deal with democracies than dictatorial strongmen.
>>30045631
Erdogan supports islamists, who did the Paris bombings and mass-shootings.
Compared to Russia's theoretical nuke threats, which are part of the old MAD-deterrence anyway, Erdogan's shitgame has created real damage and caused real deaths among the western population.
But go on, be more mad about something that should have been established as natural law by now: Encroach on Russia and attempt to end their existence as unified state = MAD.
You might as well be mad about Gravity. Or that water is wet.
>>30045667
The West is perfectly fine with strongmen who help western interests.
>>30045650
With the exception of the French, NATO has remained pretty stable for its entire existence. Can't say the same for the Warsaw Pact, which crumbled the moment its members had the chance to break off.
>>30045681
That's why I said "generally." But most times the strongmen are kept at arm's length distance.
>>30045673
Nobody is advocating invading Russia. Literally only Russians believe otherwise.
>>30045704
Sorry, to disappoint you, but I'm a Western European, mr. second-class ally, buffer State.
>>30045731
The first step in invading Russia, or dismembering Russia, is to degrade Russia's nuclear deterrence by surrounding them with ABM systems.
And that's exactly what is happening now.
America wouldnt even wait for the end-game to arrive before preemptively striking someone. See Cuba-crisis, where they threatened Nuclear War for the Russian response of US nukes in Turkey.
>>30045753
And that's kind of what happens when the only thing keeping your country relevant anymore is your leftover nukes from the Cold War.
>>30045050
France doesn't either, but you don't see them annexing shit.
>>30042081
They could stick tomahawks in it if they wanted to.
But we never would use the 24 cells it had for anything but BMD useful missiles. Also most(or maybe all now) or our nuclear capable tomahawks have been retired.
>>30045821
Except parts of Germany.
>>30045069
He means that neocon Jew at the university of Chicago who was basically the only dude telling the Ukraine to keep its nukes (though he thought they'd need then against Poland).
>>30045899
>He means that neocon Jew at the university of Chicago who was basically the only dude telling the Ukraine to keep its nukes (though he thought they'd need then against Poland).
I know who he is.
He is a moron.
>>30045845
Except literally anything can launch Tomahawks these days. I don't see the point of hiding them in an ABM system.
>Oppenheimer vs Vatniks
This is hilarious,
>>30045950
Oppenheimer basically fled in the middle of the discussion, but tried to present it like he won the argument decisively.
>>30045988
You mean he mic dropped on a vatnik who relentlessly kept repeating the same thing over and over.
>>30045988
I'm pretty sure he won it decisively. See: >>30045245
>The will of Russia is to force itself on it's neighbors against their will.
The fact that you think this is sound reasoning is why he won.
>>30045988
BTFO Vatnik detected.
>>30045988
>What if the will of the people is to "preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations"? By the way, it totally is.
>What if the will of the people is to "preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations"? By the way, it totally is.
>What if the will of the people is to "preserve it's sphere of influence against the will of other nations"? By the way, it totally is.
You call this a victory?
let's summarize thread:
- russia is weak shit
- the only relevant thing she have is 20k nuclear warheads
- nato and Jew.S.A. want to disintegrate russia
- this made russia paranoid
-now they try to be best bros with china
- west claims it's evil russia made them angry
>>30045988
>Oppenheimer basically fled in the middle of the discussion
Feel free to explain why Russia forcing other countries to bend to it's will even if they don't want to is a good thing.
>inb4 lots of "Whataboutism"
>>30046034
>- this made russia paranoid
>- nato and Jew.S.A. want to disintegrate russia
You got these two mixed up in order.
>>30046027
It's just a statement of a fact. Russians want their country to be a big, powerful and influental empire again. There is a Russian saying which basically goes "If they are afraid of you, it means they respect you".
I am not saying it's "right", "good" or "realistic", but this kind of thinking is popular among the masses.
>>30046070
Yes, and the problem is that they're acting surprised and offended that the nations they're intimidating are actually ACTING on that fear.
>>30046070
I think just about everyone wants more power.
What stops democracies from being as aggressive about it is that power comes with costs.
I can't see a parliamentary democracy losing thousands of Russians in some pointless adventure in Ukraine.
It simply costs too much for the public to want it.
>russia is a democracy meme
the last election was rigged as fuck, like - as fucking rigged as it gets
wtf are you people talking about?
>>30046089
But you see American parliamentary democracy not losing any sleep about losing thousands of dead american soldiers in all the wars they fought in the past 10 years in the middle east, which all ended in failure and the rise of ISIS.
Democracy is a naturally flawed system. It caters to special interest groups and not to the people, who only have the illusion of choice.
And oligarchs always will get what they want, regardless of system.
>>30046100
russia is only appearing democratic to have trade relations with the west
>>30046100
How many international observes were on your last elections?
>>30045255
All of you fucking tards need to screw off with calling everything that is direct democracy liberal bullshit fascism. yes, I'm inferring a lot about you, but your post reeks of that.
>>30046239
Is not* direct
>>30046034
>Russia is weak shit
>Never quite gave up the 'we iz stronk' mindset even whilst people wait in line for bread
>Starts making roads to recovery after collapse of CCCP, mostly by playing ball with the EU
>Does well for a few years but forgets how it ended up in the shithole to start with.
>Putin comes to power and decides Russia needs to exert itself on weaker neighbours it still feels entitled to push around
>World frowns at this. Sanctions happen.
>Russia cries because it is a good boy that dindu nuffin. No one buys it.
>Obviously its the world's fault. They just want to keep russia down
>People and institutions in Russia that still matter see history repeating itself and bolt for the door.
>Putin's approval rating skyrockets whilst the lines form once more for bread and the Rouble implodes...
>>30046127
It's not perfect.
It's anything but perfect.
I suspect, however, that it would lead to a significantly better relationship with the west.
After all, India was a democracy that was in the Soviet orbit for the longest time, and we didn't generally have issues with them, because they ended up with a fairly isolationist foreign policy.
Note also that American leaders start wars with weak, isolated countries.
Bush never would have invaded Iraq if he'd honestly known that 5,000 Americans would be killed.
It simply isn't good politics.
The same concerns kept the US out of Syria in 2013, and Ukraine in 2014.
>>30046334
India is a can of worms of its own. India has literally fought with every single of its neighbors, and not seldom as aggressors themselves, and literally noone of their neighbors like them all that much. A reason why China can be so successful in selling arms to Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri-Lanka and Pakistan.
Indian democracy has not produced peace at all, but rather the oppossite. A fractured country that still wages civil war with at least a million death by now in Kashmir, and internal factionalism.
Sure, the US likes India very much, because they are China's enemy. But even if India was a dictatorship, the US would still like them for that same reason.
The recent US overtures to Vietnam, still a communist single party dictatorship not very different to China, shows you that. Obama wanting to end the weapons embargo against a communist dictatorship in the name of democracy and freedom is too ironic to be true. But it is.
>>30046209
none
we had elections today and the fucking mega-stalinist won
>>30046493
Maybe you should accept unloved outcomes of democratic votes.
Learn about Philippines; where an openly admitted mass-murderer and want-to-be rapist won by landslide, and who wants to end democracy in his country and declares himself to be a "dictator for the people" infront of a cheering crowd.
Sure, Failpenis is a shithole by all means. But still, it was touted by the US as an example of asian democracy that authoritarians, like China, gotta learn from and respect.
>>30042906
Or, you know, blatant racism and disregard for their suffering.
Hey, they waterboarded KSM 186 times and I was like "why so few?"
Fuck Japan in WW-II. They had it coming, even if they couldn't figure it out then, or admit it now.
>>30043878
>ukrainian
no such law
>>30042970
>ABM in general are offensive in nature.
So I'm guessing Russia doesn't have any kinda ABM systems?...
>>30043749
>"East Europeans are fed up with the Russian menace and wished to join the NATO".
Fucking right and fuck you Russians if you don't like it.
>>30042906
>Viktor Vatnikovsky everyone
>>30045046
>Nice description of NATO, t b h
Yeah NATO would be the guy putting his arms up to defend himself.
>>30045572
You either do not comprehend what was said or do but insist on arguing against a strawman.
>>30045595
>If Russia doenst play your game and dont want to be your slave
This is the epitome of the Russian victim complex, the West does not want Russia to be a slave.
What the West wants is for Russia to not behave like a paranoid nuclear armed raving lunatic.
>>30045753
>America wouldnt even wait for the end-game to arrive before preemptively striking someone. See Cuba-crisis where they threatened Nuclear War for the Russian response of US nukes in Turkey.
Your example contradicts your claim that the US would preemptively launch a first strike.
>>30046127
>But you see American parliamentary democracy not losing any sleep about losing thousands of dead american soldiers in all the wars they fought in the past 10 years in the middle east
You have not paid any attention to American politics if you think this.
>which all ended in failure and the rise of ISIS.
Last time I checked Iraq and Afghanistan still have democratic governments.
>>30042142
>they can't go back to threatening to nuke former Pact countries every other month like clockwork.
>go back
>implying they've ever did it
The reason why vatas are so heavily "against" it is the newspeak behind that thing.
I am Pole and I remember the drama around it when they wanted to place the shield here.
They've literally lied their ass and said it's against Iran, no wonder vatniks started to protest because it was so bull-shitty that it seemed like they want to prevent mutually assured annihilation and attack rather than "defend from Iran", holy shit.
Have NATO had some balls they would either tell Russians - yes fags we're building a system to intercept the rockets you send so you're fucking dead if you'll even try to launch nukes while we won't be even scratched by the ones you've managed to launch before we've hit all the launch platforms - or be more diplomatic and, if the aegis was really supposed to be a mean of defence against Iran they would opt for cooperation with Russians, but obviously that was never a plan.
>>30049225
>Your example contradicts your claim that the US would preemptively launch a first strike
How so? The USA was all aboard on launching a preemptive first strike if Russia did not remove nukes from Cuba. It was only deescalated when JFK agreed behind closed doors and far away from public eye to remove the USA nukes in Turkey and Italy.
>>30049225
>US would preemptively launch a first strike.
US was geared for the first strike strategy when it came to nuclear warfare.
They've spent less money from their "nuclear" budget on shelters than USSR did and USSR had lower spending on the whole thing in the first place.
Well that was something.
>>30049340
The logic of >>30045753 means the US would not have negotiated and simply nuked the USSR before missiles in Cuba could be readied.
>>30049357
>They've spent less money from their "nuclear" budget on shelters than USSR did and USSR had lower spending on the whole thing in the first place.
Setting aside the [citation needed], this also can mean the USSR had a higher expectation of nuclear war than the US did.
>>30049456
>this also can mean the USSR had a higher expectation of nuclear war than the US did.
Sort of.
They've assumed that they're not going to "win" the war as in fire the rockets first, destroy enemy launch sites and get away with at worst minimal damage(few nukes hitting one or two cities were still okay if it didn't ended in nationwide nuclear holocaust). Their basic doctrine was that they'll have system good enough to warn them on time, counter-attack which will lead to mutual destruction, survive the war in shelters and then with the moral "supremacy" of being the defending side(propaganda) and quite likely very large population(for the post-nuclear-apocalypse standards) they would take over the rest of the world.
The US has seen it differently. They thought that they can win the war with minimal damage so they were focusing on a means of quick and concealed launch rather than defence system. For them being the second ones to strike meant that they lose.
>>30049340
The Jupiters were being withdrawn anyway
the Americans knew the soviet's were massively nuclearly out-gunned(SAC had 120+ deployed ICBMs and a bigger bomber fleet) and the soviet knew the Americans knew that soviet strategic rocket forces only had a handful of ICBMs and no early warning radars(Hen House wasn't operational until 63) so they took america's token gesture of withdrawing the Jupiters from turkey
Reading this thread made me realize something. In the mind of the russian it is flat out impossible to grasp the concept of respecting or even acknowledge the will of the weaker.
That's why they see NATO membership in the Baltics as US aggression, they cannot grasp the concept of the weaker party wanting something and the greater power agreeing. To them it's the greater power doing what they want, giving no fucks about the will of the small. With that mindset, all NATO expansion post cold war is US imperialism, they cannot think of the will of the small nation as a factor.
That also explains why they get so butthurt about people criticizing their invasion of Ukraine, to them it's only right to do so as the stronger in the area.
>>30050870
that explains a lot
>>30050870
Or maybe they just don't want a military alliance formed for the sole purpose of waging war against them on their front doorstep?
>>30044162
>A broken country that was ready to give up and become friends of America,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>>30051053
Maybe their wants are irrelevant to the wants of the smaller country's?
