Aside from the AR/M16 platform the only other production DI rifle was the French MAS of the 1940’s. The M16 happened twenty years later. I believe that was the only DI rifle Eugene Stoner designed (consider the AR10 family), and no one else has used the DI system since. Stoner went on to design the AR18 and Stoner 63, both piston systems. That said, you would think that if the DI system rifle was all that great, more gun designers would use it, but none did, not even Stoner. That is conclusive, gas piston is simply better.
>B8 post
>B8 pic
Hmmm.
>>30013763
DI requires no moving parts to operate and mechanically dead-simple.
Both systems have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Kalashnikoboos get out.
>>30013763
Also the ljungman.
>>30013763
That picture is retarded. Gas from the gas tube goes into the bolt carrier, and is vented through holes in the side of the bolt carrier. It's not a conventional DI system.
Stoner designed those two other guns for the same reason JMB designed the High Power: they sold the patents to their previous inventions and needed to come up with something new. That was Stoner's role at Armalite, come up with neat new guns and sell the intellectual property.
>>30013863
and he could have kept developing DI, conventional or not, rifles but he chose not to.
>>30013863
>>30013884
also the SR and Stoner series were not with Armalite
>>30013884
Except you know, for joining Knight's Armament to continue to develop and refine gas impingement AR style rifles and bring the SR-25 to market.
>>30013763
This whole thread is BTFO by the simple fact that DI can have more rounds put through it than piston with a simple system and lighter weight.
>>30013884
He also chose not to work with straight blowback after the AR 7 or long recoil actions after the AR 17. What's your point?
>>30013763
Yeah, that is not at all how the system works. Your image obfuscates the elegance of the system.
"Gas Piston" is not "better", just different.
Work is work.
>>30013763
>gas piston is simply better
muh carrier tilt
>>30014080
>Yeah, that is not at all how the system works.
Maybe because it wasn't made to show how it works, but to convince dumb fags that the 416 is a clearly superior design. And there's no better way to do that than showing them a diagram for dummies where the DI has a self-evident "flaw" and the 416 introduces a simple solution with no apparent drawbacks. That way the retards can rally behind the "shits where it eats" mantra and feel like experts even though they really have no clue whatsoever how any of that stuff works.
By the way, you aren't the real Meplat, are you?
>>30013763
Think I'm more interested in whether or not OP actually owns an AR in either system to begin with.
>>30013786
thats a cutie goat
>>30013763
Just throw away the best part of the AR why don't you
>>30013763
i think the difference between the two systems is negligible
>>30014519
Calm down Achmed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakim_Rifle
Would the SKS be a Double Short Stroke Piston?
>>30013763
that picture is a meme
>>30016620
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakim_Rifle
I love the shape of that receiver
>>30013763
>Aside from the AR/M16 platform the only other production DI rifle was the French MAS of the 1940’s
Except the gun that fucking invented the DI system you fucking retard
The Ljungman
It's called the Ljungman gas system for a reason you unbelievable cunt
>>30014101
Thats my biggest issue with piston systems. I'm kinda fudd when it comes to my handguns as i really prefer to have a stainless frame instead of alloy. The ar being aluminum doesnt bother me near as much since i can replace the upper and bolt carrier whenever i want, but i know for a fact it would nag my mind if i had a piston ar.
Plus i enjoy cleaning my guns, so even if DI is dirtier than piston systems, that doesnt bother me near as much.
>>30016689
its the very definition of short stroke
>>30013763
DI = quieter operation with suppressors
>>30013763
Goddammit, you've done it now. Pretty soon am AR fag will be along to tell you it's not really direct impingement or some such.
>>30016620
>LGS has two Hakims for less than 700 each
>I just dropped money on a WASR so a bigger purchase like that is a stretch
Why
>>30018120
Aren't WASRs $600 right now?
>>30018126
In that ballpark, yeah.
>>30013763
SSP is saver when you are a combat diver, that's for sure. It will prevent your pneumatic system from becoming an hydraulic system.
Now some faggot claiming to be a combat diver will tell you otherwise.
I think the whole debate over DI and other systems has become something like DI = USA debate. If you don't like DI you somehow don't like the USA or some shit.
>>30013763
Doesn't matter, I shoot better than you.
>>30013812
>>30013947
>>30014080
DI is fine. The reputation for it being unreliable is a myth
Yes it gets dirtier faster but you only need to clean DI guns about every 800 rounds anyway.
The only piston system with any big reliability advantages over DI is that of the AK. And you can accredit most of its reliability to loose tolerances rather than its piston system.
Other platforms with the new "short stroke" meme design have not proven to be any more reliable or practical than DI. This was the military's conclusion, and the conclusion of just about every single other independent study.
1/10 made me reply
>>30018266
ARs work fine after total submersion, dipshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMZ4iP12S64
>>30013763
I see your point but DI is dead simple mechanically and if the recoil spring is strong enough to push through the carbon fouling, it can go unlubed through 10,000-20,000 something rounds or something insane like that without stoppages
>>30016811
wooooooow 3 guns out of over 9000 use DI wow it so great. get real, if it was so great more people would have designed guns utilizing it.
>>30020123
>And you can accredit most of its reliability to loose tolerances rather than its piston system.
The loose tolerances allow for easier manufacturing and less issues with fit when using parts from different sources. Loose tolerances do not contribute directly to mechanical reliability of the design but instead ensure that less precisely manufactured parts or rifles will still function well enough. This also allows certain repairs to be done by less than skilled hands without having too significant an impact on function.
The loose tolerances actually contribute to the ingress of debris into the firing mechanisms which can result in malfunction. What makes AKs reliable is that they are overgassed, have a very large piston, a bolt carrier with a long travel time, two large locking lugs, simple hammer operation, and generally use ammunition with a severe taper.
>>30020587
>Most popular base model in the world, alongside the AK
The design was nearly perfect, there was no need to "fix" it.
>>30020613
>The design was nearly perfect, there was no need to "fix" it.
>>30020639
Hey, it's reliable, ultra-accurate, easily adapted into semi-auto sniper rifles, modular, and of all the semi/full-auto rifle designs is lightweight and streamlined. Piston ARs are the solution to a problem nobody had.
>>30020732
except now everyone is trying to make their service rifles like AR's, even diehard RIFLE IS FINE russians
>>30020751
If you can't be the best, copy the best.
This thing also uses direct gas impingement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oygpUca1hkk
>>30020985
Cool gun, fucking awful mic.
>>30016827
>Stainless
Better keep that shit properly lubricated or it'll Gall like a bitch and never work right again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7NEK_29KiE
Another DGI rifle.
>>30020587
>make a claim
>be wrong
>get told
>WOW IT DOESNT EVEN MATTER MAN WOW
>>30021122
Oh look, an AR in DI
Wow, amazing
>>30020223
The point of an OTB test is to immediately fire after the weapon is being taken out of the water, not to let it hang and drain there for minutes.
>>30020520
Take a zero off those numbers and you're in the right ballpark. The original MRBS requirement for the M4 carbine was 600. The current M4A1 did less than 2000 in the 2013 test.
>all these people trying to defend the DI, saying gas doesn't harm the receiver on M16
Goddammit, /k/
>pic taken from American Rifle
>>30021367
>posts disproven bullshit as gospel
>>30021367
>prevents carbon from being pushed back into the chamber
Oooh, are they talking about the BCG? 'Cause, you know, that's exactly what it does. With those vent holes in the side. :^
>>30013763
More moving parts means more potential failure points, more upkeep required, more cost for manufacturing and more weight (generally) to the final product. Any engineer knows thus
>>30013786
Why is goatposting still a thing?
>>30021367
>American Rifle
I have lost all faith in magazines and "news agencies" like these
>>30021449
>More moving parts means more potential failure points
yet a single M16 in Vietnam war failed more times than all AKs combine
>>30021466
>magazines
American Rifle as in the book by Alexander Rose, genius
>>30021496
because the AK doesn't have more moving parts
>>30021510
Well then Alexander Rose is retarded
>>30021422
Too bad the carbon didn't get your message and part of it stays in.
>>30016689
Short stroke just means the actual piston is in some way isolated from the bolt carrier, as opposed to be being one solid piece.
>>30021718
you are aware that the AK dumps more gas into the receiver than an AR does, right?
My RPK has more carbon on the bolt carrier than my AR ever does
>>30021718
>part of it
That's one way to say "utterly negligible amount", Mr. HK Rep. :^
>>30021496
>hey, lets drop the chrome in the BCG piston chamber and switch to shitty, out of spec propellant, then not issue cleaning kits and tell them it's self-cleaning!
Literally zero fault of the design.
>>30021770
Shhh, let him have fun in the merry land of Ignorance And Delusion.
>>30021784
As much as I defend the AR design, I still prefer short stroke
Not in the AR of course, but I like the way my FAL works more
>>30021774
Just because you want it so doesn't make it so. Carbon buildup is a problem. The Ichord Committee stated that clearly.
>>30021770
A weapon that's worse than a bad weapon doesn't make that bad weapon good.
>>30021958
It was a problem when it wasn't cleaned and people used ball powder ammunition
>>30021958
On an in-spec AR-10/15 carbon buildup doesn't happen anywhere that actually affects function.
>>30021982
You made a completely confusing non-argument
>>30021780
It was designed without chrome plating.
>>30021992
You do realize the Army uses ball powder to this day, right?
>>30022032
>implying the original Colt design didn't have chrome in the BCG
k
>>30022068
and they force you to clean your gun autistically and the average shooter who ISNT in the military doesn't use ball powder
>>30022007
No, I just exposed a red herring argument.
>>30022081
The retarded argument you made is that more carbon on non essential parts means more jams, which is completely untrue because a gun that gets MORE carbon on MORE non essential parts is more reliable
>>30022075
>>implying the original Colt design didn't have chrome in the BCG
"original Colt design" is an interesting choice of words for a weapon that was designed by James Sullivan and Bob Fremont at Armalite. And, yes, it was designed without chrome plating.
>>30022120
No I refuted the retarded claim that all the carbon gets vented outside. Of course part of it stays in and becomes a problem, as has been established by the Congressional Committee that investigated the weapon after its abhorrent failures in Vietnam.
>>30021996
Read the Ichord Report instead of pulling stuff out of your ass.
>>30022075
>and they force you to clean your gun autistically
Well they have to precisely because of this shortcoming.
>>30022125
Yup, the original Armalite AR15 has any bearing on the M16 and M16A1
The original Armalite design used clean flake powder so it doesn't fucking matter
>>30022154
>No I refuted the retarded claim that all the carbon gets vented outside
All guns get some coming back from the chamber
Making a point out of it is pointless when no gun can prevent it
50,000 PSI inside the gas tube and bolt carrier does not allow buildup
>>30022184
Because the military is stupid
Why do we care what the military does when we're not the military?
If I run year old gas in my car it'll run like shit too
That doesn't mean internal combustion engines have a shortcoming because they can't run shit gas
>>30022167
Have you even cleaned an AR-15?
>>30022244
Not that guy but I never clean my AR because it doesn't ever get dirty
Maybe every 5,000 rounds or so I'll do it when shit actually starts to stick
>>30022167
>Read the Ichord Report
That's just funny. I wrote 34 page paper on the teething issues of the AR-15 in the mid-1960s, and you thinking the issues in that report have any bearing on the rifle today is cute. Please keep posting.
>>30022244
I'd be amazed if he's even touched one.
>>30022254
I clean mine every 1000 rounds or so because I'm an autist. The front of the receiver and chamber is probably at the very bottom of my list of maintenance concerns considering how very little buildup is always present.
>>30020223
>Dipshit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktkTxU
>>30022222
The original Armalite design used IMR powder. Ball powder is the more modern powder. It has significant advantages in logistics, which is why the Army decided that all its guns are to use ball powder.
The changes to the weapon to circumvent its problems were made at Colt's and are just quick'n'dirty fixes (a heavier and segmented buffer and a rubber plug in the extractor spring) when it should have undergone a major redesign after it was clear that it is to use Ball powder.
>>30022318
>I clean mine every 1000 rounds or so because I'm an autist.
I pretty much stopped cleaning my guns
I oil them a bit if they get gritty, but don't really clean them until it gets grody
>>30022278
Then you should know that the AR15 got Americans killed in action until the very end of that war because of how dirty the DI system was.
>>30022330
>Ball powder is the more modern powder
>more modern
No, it's cheaper
They used the equivalent of Winchester 231
As in trash
>after it was clear that it is to use Ball powder.
>MacNamara making a shitty uninformed decision should have made them completely redesign a gun
Naw
I'll just use my AR as intended and never clean it
>>30022356
Are you trolling? I have a feeling you've just been trolling this entire time. I think you're trolling.
>>30022356
>Then you should know that the AR15 got Americans killed in action until the very end of that war because of how dirty the ammo they used was.
FTFY
Changing ammo is easier than changing and reissuing newly designed weapons
>>30022242
>All guns get some coming back from the chamber
The chamber, yes. That comes directly from the cartridge. But that doesn't mean it's necessary to take extra fouling inside the bolt carrier, except when the weapon is designed like that as the AR-15 is.
>50,000 PSI inside the gas tube and bolt carrier does not allow buildup
Lol the peak pressure in the cartridge isn't the pressure in the gas tube or bolt carrier, stupid. The design pressure at the gas port was 10.000 psi. Of course its even less in the bolt carrier as the gas has expanded even more when it reaches the carrier.
>Why do we care what the military does when we're not the military?
Because that's what you get.
E.g.: does your private AR have a forward assist? Oh yeah, it does. Why is it there? Because the Army wanted it. The original AR-15 design didn't have one.
>>30022365
In fairness, the propellant fiasco in general was an unmitigated clusterfuck from all sides, not just MacNamara.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556prop.html
>>30022424
Answer my question
>>30022244
fact of the matter is there is a reason designers and engineers avoid this system altogether, in favor of better ones.
>>30013763
>ITT: DI is the best thing ever.
>Only used in 1 type of gun in the US inventory.
>Has nothing to do with being dirt cheap.
Its not even being used by tier 1 units anymore.
>>30022244
Have you ever cleaned a modern short-stroke piston rifle to compare?
>>30021992
>>30022068
>>30022075
>muh ball powder
Spherical propellants are the only type to use in .223/5.56 because in order to get sufficient velocity with extruded (stick) powders requires a compressed load. This is bad because over time that can unseat the projectile. The issue isn't extruded or spherical, but the composition of those powders. The current loading of M855 is WC844 at 28.5gr, which doesn't foul nearly as bad as the old WC846 (or BL-C(2)) they used in the original M193 load. Another huge problem aside from the powder was a lack of chrome lining and shitty magazines.
>>30022222
>flake powder
Nope, there are no flake powders used in rifle calibers that I know of. Shotguns and pistols only. Also, the original M193 used WC846; the same as 7.62 M80.
>>30022184
No, the military makes you clean everything because it's the fucking military. An organization where all of the primary maintenance on issued equipment is maintained by people who just left childhood. They have rifles and tanks that are older than them that see hundreds of thousands of miles/rounds fired. You need to maintain that shit religiously if you want it to work.
>>30022424
>But that doesn't mean it's necessary to take extra fouling inside the bolt carrier,
The total fouling is very very little because 50k PSI
And the total case pressure is 62k you fucking moron
>>30022424
>does your private AR have a forward assist?
Nigga no it doesn't
>>30022625
>because in order to get sufficient velocity with extruded (stick) powders requires a compressed load.
Which are more accurate, consistent, and reliable
>This is bad because over time that can unseat the projectile.
No it can't
Milspec 5.56 has asphalt sealant and crimped necks
>>30022604
>He's still doing it
>>30015420
If he really was an achmed he would focus on the part where the goat is also a cute little boy. Double halal, mang.
>>30022687
I will say that I do appreciate the FA. Picrelated.
>>30022604
My FAL actually gets dirtier than my AR because the piston head gets crusty and likes to stick slightly
>inb4 HURR DURR NOT MODERN
They work exactly the same
>>30022713
I appreciate the side charge
Only thing I've needed the FA for was using Wolf Gold that would prevent the bolt from completely closing
I simply pushed on the BCG cutout though and it closed
>>30022687
>utg riser
>>30022278
With the shorter barrel due to the change from the M16 to the M4 they indeed do, because this shortening necessitated changes which eat up a lot of the potential of the fixes by Colt. E.g. the gas port had to wander back because DI systems need more dwell time than piston systems. But this increases the pressure at the gas port, which was one of the original problems in Vietnam. The higher gas pressure lead to an increased cyclic rate. This lead to misfires due to carrier bounce and failures to extract. This was fixed with the heavier segmented buffer. The M4 has a shorter stock, too. But because the stroke length of the bolt has to remain the same the buffer had to be shortened which leaves less room for buffer weights.
And, yes, read the report.
>>30022738
I got it for free
Been meaning to get a new one, but hey, it works and holds zero so it's secondary to getting a Lantac, good 4x, and offset mount for the red dot
>>30022740
>the gas port had to wander back because DI systems need more dwell time than piston systems.
piston systems don't need dwell time
You just open the gas port up bigger
If you cut off 21 inch FAL down to the gas block, it wouldn't cycle for shit
Same goes for pistol length gas systems on DSAs
You have to give it more gas
That's not something inherent only to DI
>The higher gas pressure lead to an increased cyclic rate.
Which was what happened after they used ball powder because it increased pressures
Ammo problem
>This lead to misfires due to carrier bounce
A potential problem for any gun, but the ARs bolt is light so it could have that problem more than other guns with heavier bolts
Lighter bolt = less recoil
>The M4 has a shorter stock, too
Fully extended carbine stock is longer than a rifle length
>>30022604
The short piston is just as dirty, but a different spot.
>>30022678
I thought the same thing, then my rounds that were crimped and sealed unseated with a full compressed load of Varget.
>accurate,
>consistent,
Redundent
>reliable
Refer to my other post. There are extruded propellants that are dirtier than WC844 and some that are cleaner. Both are negated by simply cleaning your gun. Your blanket statements belay your ignorance.
![WP_20160126_001[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZVqIhMX.jpg "WP_20160126_001[2].jpg")
>>30022740
>There were issues, but now there aren't any
Itsfuckingnothing.jaypeg
>>30022740
you realize rifle buffers AND tubes are longer, right?
>>30022832
>then my rounds that were crimped and sealed unseated with a full compressed load of Varget.
How much compression were you doing?
Anything over 105% is going to push out
102 is usually the max people go
>>30022740
>the guns in Vietnam sucked so they fixed them now and they work fine so that's why DI is bad
>>30021251
You are right, I was wrong.
I dug up the source I read years ago and I had misremebered the information by an extra 0.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
Runs up to 2400 rounds without lube just fine.
>>30022833
post with your trip on
also
>Windows phone
nice
>quad rail
>A1 grip
Ass
At least you're not using carbine gas like a fucking retard
>>30022888
>A1 grip
>Ass
Literally kill yourself.
>>30018266
>backwards ELCAN
>NO COMPROMISE
>>30022904
the grip angle is butt
But at least it isn't an A2, so it's not the end of the world
>A2s are shit and smash into your knuckles unless you're a fatty mcfat fat
>>30022814
>Fully extended carbine stock is longer than a rifle length
He means the buffer tube.
>>30022912
I hope you're not one of those plebs who puts PDW grips on regular rifles.
>>30022919
well he shouldn't type stock then
>>30022932
see>>30022734
B5 grip most comfortable grip
>>30022365
>No, it's cheaper
It certainly wasn't during Vietnam. The Ichord Report criticized the monopoly of Olin. The reason the Army made it its standard was, as I said, the logistical advantages.
>They used the equivalent of Winchester 231
They used WC-846 and later WC-844. The powder was kept when they switched from the M193 to the M855 round. It was only with the recent change to the M855A1 round that the powder was changed again, but the changes are just for reducing the muzzle flash.
>>MacNamara making a shitty uninformed decision should have made them completely redesign a gun
The decision to use Ball powder in all of the Army's small arms came in April 1954 by the Chief of Ordnance. The AR-15 was designed from 1957-1959.
Please just stop posting instead of making things up out of thin air. It makes you look like a complete fool.
>>30022955
So you're a pleb who puts PDW-angled stocks on regular rifles. For shame.
>>30023004
>It certainly wasn't during Vietnam
Ball powder was cheaper and more available
That makes good logistics
>inb4 total cost of weapons, manpower, etc
Hence why they fixed their shit pretty quick
>Please just stop posting instead of making things up out of thin air.
>DI IS BAD BECAUSE IT GETS GAS INSIDE THE CARRIER
>prove that gas inside the carrier is bad
>HURRRFOULING
You're the idiot making the claims, cocknose
>>30023015
>So you're a pleb who puts PDW-angled stocks on regular rifles.
Because I'm not a tard who thinks my AR has some kind of originality to it
Only reason I even OWN an AR is because I built it how I wanted it, which is accurate as fuck, comfy grip and stock, and side charging
>>30022577
It's not the best thing ever.
It's good enough to rival AK in popularity, the most ubiquous arm thrown around everywhere for free as long as you have one object with red paint.
>>30022832
>The short piston is just as dirty, but a different spot.
That's the fucking point!
![WP_20151210_005[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/J38D6m1.jpg "WP_20151210_005[1].jpg")
>>30023036
You'll see the error of your ways one day. I did.
>>30023057
And then you started attention whoring on /k/. "Seeing the error of your ways" indeed.
Does anybody here run a suppressed sbr di AR-15? If so, do you have any problems with it?
>>30022184
>>30022075
The Army is trying to get away from the white glove treatment since it's unnecessary and leads to retarded privates damaging their rifles trying to get every last bit of carbon out of their rifles. This isn't getting much traction because it's a good way to teach discipline and keep said retarded privates busy so they don't damage something more valuable.
Modern ARs and Mwhatevers don't require much maintenance.
>>30020123
>Other platforms with the new "short stroke" meme design have not proven to be any more reliable or practical than DI. This was the military's conclusion, and the conclusion of just about every single other independent study.
No, the military concluded that the benefits of the short-stroke system aren't enough justify replacing millions of M4s.
>>30023057
>You'll see the error of your ways one day
The day I see the error of my ways is the day that I sell my AR
I might own a Prototype clone, A1 clone, etc, but I'll never own a tactishit AR with dumb pointless furniture like quadrails, stupidly angled grips, the retarded charging handle placement, or a fixed front sight
>>30023102
Only issue is gas in your face, but you can use a gas buster charging handle or make your own
There's a guide somewhere
>>30023136
>No, the military concluded that the benefits of the short-stroke system aren't enough justify replacing millions of M4s.
That's a pretty good indication that it's not worth spending an extra $500 on
>>30023141
>with dumb pointless furniture like quadrails, stupidly angled grips, the retarded charging handle placement, or a fixed front sight
Yeah man, fuck accessories and all that dumb shit
>>30023203
So show us yours bitch. My AR is beast
>>30023172
Not particularly. Things the private end user may value, like reliability, are not always the same things the DoD values- mostly logistics, replacement part stock compatibility, cost of replacement and how much money can be siphoned off into the right contractor's hands.
>>30022863
I can't remember what the capacity was, but it was the max load for 55gr FMJ in the Hornady reloading manual. I crimped them with a Lee die, and used clear nail polish to seal them. Not Mil-Spec I admit, but they pretty much popped their top after 24hrs of sitting. I loaded them up for a range trip that weekend and when I checked them the next day half were unseated.
>>30023203
>Yeah man, fuck accessories and all that dumb shit
>quadrails
Modular is better
>stupidly angled grips
Straight grip best grip
>the retarded charging handle placement
That's not an accessory, but side charge has been faster in my experience
And I like that it's like an L1A1
>fixed front sight
Flip up and optic mustard race
>>30022577
>Implying SCARs are anything but an oddity in SOCOM
>>30023232
>Things the private end user may value, like reliability
I use good ammo so I don't have a reliability problem
>>30022832
was for >>30022697
>>30023238
unless you coated the bullet then seated, that nail polish wouldn't actually hold anything
It doesn't have any sheer strength
>>30023255
It's not really reliable if it demands certain ammo now is it?
>>30022734
Bruh that AR is trashtier. Where the fuck are your irons and what the fuck is that optic riser?
>>30023269
>a certain
You mean any but milsurp
Which means it's not a problem at all
>>30023278
>Where the fuck are your irons
Old pic before I could afford things
Got a good deal on the optic and needed something for a big shoot I went to
>what the fuck is that optic riser?
It's an optic riser
Who gives a fuck who makes it?
read>>30022756
>>30022625
>The current loading of M855 is WC844 at 28.5gr, which doesn't foul nearly as bad as the old WC846 (or BL-C(2)) they used in the original M193 load.
WC-844 differs from WC-846 only in that the tolerance levels for calcium carbonate were reduced from 1% to .25%. Other than that it's exactly the same. The change came after the Ichord Report, even though extensive testing found that only few ammunition lots came close to 1%.
>No, the military makes you clean everything because it's the fucking military.
Proper cleaning was among the recommendations of the Ichord Report. In fact the very first points deal with it. Pic related.
>>30023278
>trashtier
>ERMAGERD ITS NOT GOOD IN COMBAT WHY WOULD YOU EVER OWN IT
Why are ARfags so autistic?
>>30023346
Why are poorfags so shit at buying nice things?
>>30023340
>failure to extract
Well that would be the downfall of undergassing
>and so they made the M4 which is overgassed as fuck
>>30023372
Owner of that gun here
That gun has a $300 upper, a $120 buffer, a $300 barrel, and a $200 handguard
>poor
>>30023346
Post your guns
>>30022678
Just repeating bullshit doesn't make it true.
Design pressure at the gas port was 10,000 psi. Using Ball powder led to 12,500 psi at the gas port which caused the increase in cyclic rate with all dire consequences. 50k psi is the chamber pressure. Gas port pressure and even more the pressure at the gas key and inside the bolt carrier are far lower, you fucking moron.
>>30023403
>$120 buffer and a $300 gimmick
Priorities.
>>30023390
The lack of chrome lining in the chamber would cause rust to form and debris to build up, which would make the spent cases stick and not extract. Combine that with not cleaning the rifle and you're fucked. Has nothing to do with "undergassing"
>>30023403
>$300 upper
>$120 buffer
Kek!
>>30022702
>stop writing things which hurt my feelings
get over it, faggot
>>30023426
Yeah, those were my priorities
Shooting people wasn't a priority
>gimmick
>opinions
I don't care
I wasn't going to own a milspec AR because they're gay
I'd have rather saved for a SCAR if I had to deal with an ARs gayness
>>30023283
>it's not a problem as long as I baby it
>>30023441
>look at that pathedic poorfag
>guns actually expensive
>look at that filthy capitalist richfag
>>30023441
JP silent capture only because I hate the scraping sound of the buffer tube
The ONLY reason
>>$300 upper
Hey, morons will spend $400 on quadrails and I wanted a different charging handle
Bite me
>>30023372
>Why are poorfags so shit at buying nice things?
>>30023441
>Kek!
Are you fucking serious right now?
>>30023457
>it's not a problem as long as I buy the most available ammo for it
FTFY
>>30023451
>I wasn't going to own a milspec AR because they're gay
Milspec ARs are popular because they're reliable, well made, and cost effective. Buying a bunch of expensive unnecessary crap just so you can be tacticool and brag about how expensive your rifle is, now that's gay.
>>30013763
You forgot AG 42 and some other guns which have used DI
>>30023506
>Milspec ARs are popular because they're reliable, well made, and cost effective.
Yeah that's cool and all but I don't care
>expensive unnecessary crap
Poorfag opinions
>brag about how expensive your rifle is,
I didn't until people called me a poorfag, retard
>>30023446
>defending a 50 year old report that isn't even relevant anymore
take the nearest gun, point it at your head, and pull the trigger.
>>30023506
>expensive unnecessary crap
>EVERYONE HAS TO USE CHEAP BOTTOM OF THE BARREL STUFF BECAUSE OF MY OPINIONS
>>30021198
It's more like an FAL and AR-10 had a babby.
>>30023465
>guns actually expensive
I bet it doesn't break two thousand and it's only 'expensive' because you bought useless gimmicks.
>>30023536
The charging handle is an L1A1 design just like the ASA side charge upper
>>30023465
>spends all his money Buying a bunch of expensive crap for his rifle instead of buying multiple rifles and ammo for the same amount of money
Ok guy
>>30023468
>I hate the scraping sound of the buffer tube
How about buying a milspec buffer tube with the dry film lube?
>>30023479
>Greentexts and then calls out people for using words like kek
You serious?
>>30023540
>implying that guy was me
It was $1600 all said and done
>ermagerd you didn't break my arbitrary price point
The buffer is effective at reducing recoil and getting rid of the scraping
The upper is what I wanted because I wanted it
The barrel is because I'm not a poorfag who thinks 1 MOA is okay
>>30022814
>piston systems don't need dwell time
>You just open the gas port up bigger
>If you cut off 21 inch FAL down to the gas block, it wouldn't cycle for shit
>Same goes for pistol length gas systems on DSAs
>You have to give it more gas
>That's not something inherent only to DI
way to miss a point. Wow
>Which was what happened after they used ball powder because it increased pressures
>Ammo problem
Read again what I wrote. You missed the point once more.
>A potential problem for any gun, but the ARs bolt is light so it could have that problem more than other guns with heavier bolts
A problem for the M16 especially as it was always marginal in this department. But you missed the point again. The tripfag claimed it has no relevance to today's weapons. I explained how it does. You just pick pieces of my writing and write what comes to your mind when you read it without regard the the prior discussion. This is an extremely pointless exercise.
>Fully extended carbine stock is longer than a rifle length
The stock tube was shortened which leaves less room for the buffer. Try to read my whole post again to get the point. Jesus.
>>30023563
>>spends all his money Buying a bunch of expensive crap for his rifle instead of buying multiple rifles and ammo for the same amount of money
>expensive crap
Poorfag opinions
>instead of buying multiple rifles and ammo for the same amount of money
>WHYD YOU MAKE YOUR GUN LIKE YOU WANT
>WHY DIDNT YOU BUY 5 GUNS LIKE I WANT THEM TO BE
Go back to bed, communist yuropoor
>How about buying a milspec buffer tube with the dry film lube?
Or just buy the silent capture ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>You serious?
He was saying I was a poorfag then gets mad when I wasn't a poorfag
He's arguing to argue, not actually make a point
>>30023582
>You just pick pieces of my writing and disprove them because I mix facts with opinions
FTFY
>>30023535
Milspec is not bottom of the barrel, genius. If the overpriced garbage on your AR makes you feel like you have a rifle that's anymore effective or reliable than a milspec AR then please continue throwing your money away.
>>30022833
>>30022875
>There were issues, there weren't adressed properly but just with a quick'n'dirty fix. Later more severe changes take away the potential of the original fix which leads to a resurfacing of old problems
fix'd
>>30023631
>literally implying ARs are now as unreliable as they were when that report you keep dryhumping was written
Kill yourself you stupid shit
>>30023643
>the inherent flaws in the design are somehow magically not applicable because its the CURRENT YEAR
>>30023631
>just with a quick'n'dirty fix
Chroming barrels and chambers is quick and dirty? Completely revamping the ammunition and magazines is quick and dirty? What the fuck is wrong with you?
> more severe changes take away the potential of the original fix
Except no?
>which leads to a resurfacing of old problems
You're just making shit up now. What is up with your vendetta against the AR?
>>30023628
>Milspec is not bottom of the barrel, genius
Actually it is
It's a minimum standard and commercial parts REGULARLY beat milsurp
Milsurp doesn't even use nitride, nigger
>overpriced garbage
I'm going to use this guys>>30023592
words now
Poorfag opinions
>implying I'm the guy with all the stuff
You're just fucking poor and can't stand people spending money on anything but the minimum most basic parts
Get over it
>inb4 samefagging
>OH MY GOD MORE THAN ONE PERSON THINKS I'M AN IDIOT
>>30023655
>inherent flaws
Oh so you actually take things like the H&K promotional materials for their piston seriously. Wow.
>>30023655
>>the inherent flaws in the design are somehow magically not applicable because its the CURRENT YEAR
The flaws have been fixed
The year has nothing to do with it
>no gun has ever been improved
Gen 1 Pmags sucked and now they work great, but yeah the inherent problems with gen 1s are still relevant, obviously
>>30022848
are you stupid?
>>30023238
>>30023266
No, I used it to seal out moisture. Like I said not mil spec.
Anyways, my point was with most extruded powders you have too large of a compressed load. I used Lake City brass, so if a max load of Varget (which got sub optimal velocity anyways, something like 2800 fps from a 16") exceeds 105% case capacity for mil spec brass then that's not good and a spherical powder is better for that cartridge.
>>30023687
Varget and CFE223 are really good loads for 308 because they are low pressure and high velocity
Don't know much about their 5.56 qualities though
>>30023546
Meh.
Also, the way the upper and lower mate is different. The upper slides backwards onto the lower, inserting a cylindrical feature to slide into a matching hole. You then push a pin sideways to lock the two together. You can't just pivot the upper for maintenance like on an AR, but it means a much more solid fit between the two (No wedge required).
It's a pretty solid design. Might grab one in the future (or maybe the 5.56 version...).
>>30023592
>5 big black men break into your house while you and your family are going to bed
>You manage to get out your AR and shoot one
>Other 4 rush you from different sides
>They take your AR and beat the fuck out of you
>They proceed to rape your family
At least you managed to disable one of them with your one $2000 AR. Of course, you and your family could have taken them all out if you had build 3 standard milspec ARs with that money instead of just one overpriced pos. But at the end of the day at least you're still tacticool, that's all that matters.
who /cryptic/ here
>>30023713
poorfags are seriously this mad lmao
>>30023659
That said, milspec does use 7075, which is much stronger than you really need. 6061 would do just fine.
>>30023711
>paying too much for dumb meme brands
>not buying DLC coated bolts from Prime
Faggot
>>30023044
Except the issue discussed was cleaning the weapon. So cleaning a DI or SS rifle will have the same fouling, only in different places. You still have to clean the piston head as often as you have to clean an AR bolt.
>>30023712
>(No wedge required).
This isn't really required to begin with
Play is just annoying
>Might grab one in the future
Canadians get out reeee
>>30023743
>$150
get outta here with that shit senpai, cryptic is gucci and A E S T H E T I C
>>30023713
>Of course, you and your family could have taken them all out if you had build 3 standard milspec ARs with that money instead of just one overpriced pos
Or I could just take one of my other 19 guns and use them, I mean I dunno
>>30023727
>6061 would do just fine.
they proved it was shit in Vietnam and bent receivers and pin holes wore out under full auto
>>30023340
That pic reiterates everything people have been saying ITT...
The weapon received chrome lining, and soldiers were taught how to clean and issued cleaning kits by the time the M16A1 was issued in 1968
>>30023761
>not wanting your bolt to have a hardness between 70 and 90
Lol geerqueers are this dumb
>>30023017
>Ball powder was cheaper and more available
>That makes good logistics
The logicstical advantages of Ball powder over IMR powder lie in storage and production.
>You're the idiot making the claims, cocknose
You claimed Ball powder wasn't more modern, came up with a powder out of your ass and implied that it was McNamara who decided to use ball powder. With each new posting you make an idiot of yourself even more.
>>30023761
I hope you just have the bottle opener and didn't actually pay LaRue for parts at memeprices
>>30023755
I mean, if you were trying to squeeze as much accuracy out of it as you could, you'd want to avoid any excess play between the two. ATRS is very much a precision rifle manufacturer, so that's kinda what dictated a lot of the design decisions, price be damned.
>Canadians get out reeee
Would you say that to John Cantius Garand?
>>30023778
I'd love to see some pics if you got any.
>>30023826
>You claimed Ball powder wasn't more modern
No I didn't, I claimed it wasn't the point
See
>No, it's cheaper
>>30023710
I am specifically addressing .223/5.56. I use nothing but extruded (4064 and 4895) for anything larger.
>>30023753
No the original issue was fouling inside the weapon. Follow the backlinks more. Cleaning was just thrown in as argument-surrogate.
>>30023713
Dude, don't be autistic
>>30023869
The argument I replied to was
>AR is easy to clean
>have you ever cleaned one
>durr have you ever cleaned a piston gun
That is the extent of the convo chain I am addressing. A piston requires the same amount of cleaning, only in a different spot.
>>30023246
Uh, when I was in Afghanistan, I didn't see the US Army SF use anything other than the SCAR-H.
>>30023390
The reason for the failures to extract was the increased cyclic rate as a consequence of the higher gas pressure of Ball propellant, which led to premature unlocking. The cartridge then didn't have enough time to relax so the extractor couldn't pull it out.
>>30024022
So they added an O-ring to the extractor as a stop gap
>"shits where it eats"
Empirically incorrect [just calculate the lock times for yourself] memage from 2008.
It was all part of the manufacturer's craze; even entered the suppressor-using parts of the military until they moved to dedicated suppressed guns.
But in 2007+9? Gas pistons are a gunshow meme for rednecks and fat fucks.
>>30023828
dont remember what i bought for that dillo desu
>>30024091
Are the LaRue rails worth it? I'm considering one for my middy
>>30024110
couldnt tell ya m8, ive never handeled one. dont see em much on here either. their barrels and trigger are very good though
>>30023530
Take the advice yourself, faggot. If you think the report is too old to be of relevance, then maybe you'll listen to AR-15 designer Jim Sullivan:
>"Remember, going back to the Ichord Committee in the 90th Congress, they identified the problem with our soldier's weapons. The 110th Congress doesn't even care. They don't care that the M4 has got exactly the same problems that this thing had in '67. Back then, people raised all kinds of hell over it. The 110th Congress doesn't do a damn thing, and those soldiers over there in Iraq right now have exactly the same problems with their M4 in spite of the improved buffer. They've got exactly the same problems that this thing had in 1967 when the Congress actually did something about it. These people won't."
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=110
>"Now you've got less weight that you're throwing to the rear, and you're throwing it to the rear faster, and what they end up with was exactly the same extraction problems that they had solved in '67. It was their solution; it was the buffer we talked about earlier. They've lost much of its effect."
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=107
>>30023611
If you enter other people's discussions, try to get a grasp what it's about first.
>>30020223
Yeah, AFTER they've waited for the weapon to drain out.
>>30023643
Not ARs in general. M4s. Read before writing, faggot. That's how it's relevant today, which was the point of this posting: >>30022740
>>30024091
Wait, is that a 2 stage?
If so, kill yourself
Single stage or no stage, faggot
>>30024151
>If you enter other people's discussions, try to get a grasp what it's about first.
>please ignore where I'm wrong because other parts were correct
No
>>30023972
I was in an SF group and did multiple deployments to Iraq, and our guys all used M4A1s. Only time I saw SCARs pulled out was for Family Day.
>>30014375
Yes, it's sales/marketing bullshit, but was (semi) hoping OP would bother to look into how the system actually works.
That aside-
What proof would you like? Don't ask for the Mp44, it's long gone, and has been long gone. .
>>30013763
he used it for a reason. to explain it to you would be a waste of my time.
>>30024128
>the M4 has got exactly the same problems that this thing had in '67
Except it doesn't. The M4 doesn't have rampant corrosion, shit ammo, and shitty mags causing it to jam all the time. Do you want me to pull out the Filthy 14 evidence? Because I will.
>end up with was exactly the same extraction problems that they had solved in '67
Literally what? Our M4A1s ran just fucking fine, thank you, out in the shithole that was Iraq. Mine sure as shit did. Quit talking out of your asshole like a mongoloid.
>>30024128
>links an article from a 20 year old rag
nice
>>30024249
single stage a shit lmao
>>30024776
>I like extra take up and reset
Dude memes lmao
>>30024249
>Single stage or no stage, faggot
Pole smoker detected.
This thread is a comedy gold mine.
>>30024793
i like a nice clean crisp break. is feels great
>>30024820
Any good single stage will do exactly the same but without that initial take up and additional reset distance
>>30024820
>he fell for the /arg/ trigger meme
>>30024853
which one? geissele or mbt? cause there are only 3 or 4 mbts
>>30024864
2 stage triggers is the /arg/ meme
>>30025079
Why do people even like 2 stage over single stage?
They do the same thing with less take up and relase?
Why do people constantly go for the 2 stage?
>>30013812
DI has no advantages, it's simple yes, but venting high pressure gas directly into he receiver and operating parts is as stupid of a design as you can get.
>>30025109
There shouldn't be a question mark on the second line
>>30020520
A Ar wont run at all without lube.
A gun can run dirty and wet with oil, but no dry and dirty.
The ar is always dirty due to design flaws but it can work if it's kept soaked with oil.
>>30025111
>but venting high pressure gas directly into he receiver
Objectively wrong
It vents out the side of the gun
>>30025133
>soaked
Wrong
>>30025111
>venting high pressure gas directly into he receiver and operating parts
Oh wow, you just described what happens in like, 95% of selfloading rifles out there. Good job. Super smart thread here guys.
>>30025109
i like knowing when its going to break
>>30025133
u r dumb
>>30025144
>i like knowing when its going to break
But single stages do exactly the same
>>30025111
>>30025133
10/10, don't stop.
>>30025153
if its the same, why does it matter which i use?
>>30025174
because you have extra take up and reset making your shots slower and slower to bring up on target from finger off the trigger whereas a single stage you know where you're at as soon as you put your finger on the trigger
