The last thread was liquidated
Chimerica Edition
> What's this thread about?
As usual this thread is for the discussion and pics of tracked and wheeled AFVs of all kinds from MBTs to supertanks to self propelled AA guns. Please keep it civil and cite sources for statistics.
The opportunities for the germination of the Jaguar project likely arose out of Nixon’s policy of diplomatic outreach to the Chinese in the 1970s, and it was in late 1988 that China’s National Machinery Import and Export Corporation announced an intention to jointly develop with Textron Systems a made for export tank. A derivative of the Type 59, it was projected to blend technology from east and west. The Jaguar MBT in fact constituted one of three different commercial military sales offered to China in the 1980s, including Chinook helicopters and Northrop Grumman’s Super-7. However, all of these would be forced into cancellation as a result of the events of 1989 in Tiananmen. The American development crew behind the Jaguar continued regardless, however, even as Chinese investment and their personnel evacuated from the programme. Textron completed a working prototype by 1989, and became a significant technology demonstrator for the firm. The actual componentry and protection behind the Jaguar remain either unknown or classified to this day, but the difference between it and a base Type 59 is likely to have been considerable, especially as the former weighed an extra 6 tonnes. The interior was completely overhauled, with a British Marconi Radar and Control Systems FCS fitted, equipped with image intensification night sights, laser rangefinding and sophisticated enough to engage while moving. Fire suppression, and advanced NBC suite and full stabilisation came par for the course. Despite all efforts, no export orders came, and it was quietly shelved.
> Gun
Rifled 105 mm M68
> Dimensions (l w h)
9.6 x 3.27 x 2.63 m
> Weight
42 tonnes
> Engine
750hp diesel
> Speed
55 km/h
>>29866299
OP: As always, feedback, suggestions wanted and appreciated.
I was a bit on the fence about doing the Jaguar, mostly because the sources on it are either of the most exoteric kind, significantly unreliable or are vague to the highest degree in discussing details about the tank. However, I did manage to find a couple of semi-dependable sources, namely an obscure entry in my copy of Brassey’s Modern Military Equipment and an Oxford publication on Chinese export deals in US history. They weren’t perfect, as the former was a fair few number of years out of date, ending with a coda of speculation about the possible future deals for the tank, and the latter only had a tangential examination of the Jaguar, more focused on the nature of the trade deal itself, as opposed to the MBT’s characteristics. Please note that I intentionally stayed away from Military Today, as I wasn’t sure to what extent it was correct, moreso upon the realisation that the article’s author was labelled under “Blacktail”.
Nevertheless, there are some interesting details about the Jaguar that appear to be confirmed. Its Detroit Diesel 8V-92TA engine was in fact the same engine that would be used in the Stingray light tank, along with its Allison XTG-411 automatic transmission. In addition, its Marconi FCS and electrohydraulic stabilisation can also be found on the Stingray. It is interesting to consider the possibility that the Jaguar paved the way for a lot of the decisions that would be taken by Textron in the AGS competition.
Also, apologies for the terrible image quality, it’s genuinely all I could find with Military Today being the source of the best quality, albeit watermarked.
>>29866299
That's a cool looking tank though. Looks small.
seems like a bad design.
only 105mm, weighs 42 tons, low horsepower and it only goes 20 miles an hour.
shit tier.
pic related is the M6 Heavy Tank.
it had 2 guns, one 76mm sherman gun and one 37mm light tank gun, in the same turret.
it weighed about 55 tons iirc.
in this picture, it is on the right, and next to a M5 stuart light tank.
the M6 never saw combat, hell, it never got out of aberdeen.
but she was one hell of a tank.
>>29866301
More tank news, as per the new format.
If you have more queries regarding a news story, just point it out, and I’ll further elaborate and provide links.
The Ukrainian defense industry has developed a prototype of a new upgrade for the Russian BMP-1, designated the BMP-1 UM IFV. It is currently undergoing tests of its new turret mounting an Overhead Weapons System with an installed ZTM-1 dual feed cannon, among other myriad upgrades.
According to chief of the VDV General Vladimir Shamanov, the VDV was set to be armed with 30% modernised equipment by the end of 2015, but achieved a target of 41% ahead of schedule and is to be 70% modernised by the end of 2020. In addition, the VDV is almost ready to unveil its 120 mm Zauralets-D air-droppable self-propelled gun (SPG).
Claims are beginning to circulate that the air defense missile system being developed for the Russian military under the name “Pitselov” is being considered for integration into existing modules such as Sosna. The implications of this venture could mean the BMD-4M vehicle chassis may become the next carrier of this advanced system, adding to the military an unprecedented capability in air dropped anti-aircraft missile defense.
Poland has signed off on a deal for an additional 64 120 mm Rak self-propelled mortars and 32 command variants. The delivery will be fulfilled by a local consortium spearheaded by the firm HSW.
Also, notable dates to look out for:
- Victory Day; Russia, May 9
- Eurosatory; France, June 13-17
Both events are enormous opportunities to catch a glimpse at the latest AFVs in development and in service, and I recommend people keep an eye out for any new revelations when these dates come.
And that’s all for now.
>>29866317
Horsepower is shit but M68 is good gun.
>>29866318
>Pitselov
A new one?
I thought they already are working on Morfey and Sosna-R. Is it the equivalent of the Igla's 'Strelets' or 'Gibka' mount for the Verba?
>>29866318
Nexter is presenting an upgraded Leclerc XLR at Eurosatory. The chances that i can get there are slim, I hope someone will bring back pictures of the thing.
Also, OP, thank you as always.
New medium tank jointly developed by Indonesia and Turkiye
It will weigh less than 30 ton and is armed with either 105mm or 120mm gun
>>29866417
Such developments were a given seeing as 1st world nations go for very heavy vehicles and Russia doesn't produce as many tanks as they used to.
>>29866451
CV-90...
>>29866318
>the VDV is almost ready to unveil its 120 mm Zauralets-D air-droppable self-propelled gun (SPG).
pic related
>>29866417
>>29866451
consider Indonesia have fuck tons of island such light vehicle is understandable
>>29866299
I wonder if the Chinese managed to pilfer some tech and reverse engineer it right before they pulled out. Would explain a lot of the innovation in the Type 85/90.
Does explosive reactiver armour protect against APFSDS? Wikipedia tells me that the M828A3 goes 1,555 m/s, which is really fast.
I think ERA works against HEAT, but I really am not an expert on the different kinds of tank shells and ways to defend against them.
>>29866796
some ERA protects against it. the newer ukrainian one is actually made up of shaped charges to 'cut' the rod and so the penetrator hasnt got the mass to punch through. im not sure about kontac-5 though, its claimed that it can defeat the most advanced western penetrators but theres no real grounds on it. especially as the russians recently claimed in a video of their new artillery that the m1 can only fire 3 rounds a minute.
>>29866796
>Does explosive reactiver armour protect against APFSDS?
third gen ERA like Soviet Kontakt-5 can defeat APDSFS, especially long rod penertrator like the M829 seris, not as good against APDSFS with penertrador core( but those one is shit any way)
> Wikipedia tells me that the M828A3 goes 1,555 m/s, which is really fast.
early Soviet APDSFS muzzle velocity is about 1800m/s
they actually reduce M829A3 muzzle velocity so it won't activate Kontakt-5, defeat the ERA
>>29866829
>im not sure about kontac-5 though, its claimed that it can defeat the most advanced western penetrators but theres no real grounds on it
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/
> especially as the russians recently claimed in a video of their new artillery that the m1 can only fire 3 rounds a minute.
what is your point? some Slav TV announcer shouting propaganda bullshit about Abrams mean that Kontakt-5 cann't defeat APDSFS despite countless test in the 90 show that it is what it is
>>29866855
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/era.html
sorry, this is the real link
Remember when that 11b anon? One thing he mentioned was that M1127 RV Strykers were ditching the flex mount for a RWS and the LRAS3 was being moved to the rear of the vehicle.
I was reading an eARMOR article about cavalry units and noticed the pictures were what he was talking about.
>>29866893
>>29866829
>>29866833
>>29866855
>>29866857
Appreciate the info lads. /thg/ threads really are my favourite threads on all of 4chan.
Ive got one more question.
Ive heard a few anons say that putting things like sandbags, scraps of metal at the like onto tanks can be worse because it makes HEAT weapons more effective. This true?
Im not talking about spaces armour either, just welding on scraps of metal and a few bits and bobs onto a tank.
>>29866318
Raytheon is offering an economy modernization for M60A3's.
-950hp engine
-new FCS/electronics
-gun elevation and turret hydraulics replaced with electric motors
-120mm gun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwUTEkRano
>>29866833
If you know how the ERA works, you can come up with methods to bypass it.
Like a tip that simulates autocannon strikes.
>>29866935
>This true?
don't think so
Syria tanker put rock into the box around the turret and it work against HEAT
1/2
>>29866956
2/2
>>29866829
>the newer ukrainian one is actually made up of shaped charges to 'cut' the rod and so the penetrator hasnt got the mass to punch through
Actually the linear shaped charges cut up a 'heavy' plate and fling the strips into the underside of the penetrator.
>>29866985
so it is a super complex backward moving plate design?
seen more legit than cutting the rod
>>29867006
A penetrator is moving too fast for the linear charges to do much before it passes by.
>>29866950
You are saying that ERA won't activate if shot by autocannons?
>>29867072
not him
i cann't say for every ERA today but many cann't be denote by low carry gun and ERA like Kontakt-5 is protected by thick RHA plate
>>29866941
Opt for staying with 105mm gun and you have perfect tank for your banana republic, it seems.
>>29866935
Only in the sense it will change standoff distance. It will depend on the warhead, and only applies to things like sandbags which might as well be spaced armor for all it does. It's hard to see how a solid block of steel welded on would hurt.
>>29867035
>implying
Shaped charges move even faster, m8.
>>29867035
Shaped charges are even faster, though.
>>29867035
Shaped charges are even faster, tbqh
What is it on the cheeks of turret?
>>29867285
fake ERA blocks. that vehicle is meant to represent an OPFOR vehichle
>>29866941
sexy
>>29867202
>>29867210
>>29867215
But not fast enough to cut through a penetrator as it is moving past.
>>29867307
There should also be 'fuel drums' hanging off the bustle storage rack.
>>29867569
Fast enough, actually. ERA bricks are effective against KEPs.
>>29867632
ERA bricks do not move perpendicular to a penetrators travel.
>>29867285
That picture could be cuter
Apparently there is some join US-Georgian military exercise going on.
>>29868207
>>29868191
>>29868183
And for something completely different.
Something I just noticed, these M2 Bradley's >>29868231 >>29868191 are ECP1 with with the bigger tracks and this Bradley >>29868183 is an M7 that has not been upgraded.
>>29867662
They usually move at an angle, but what's your point? As long as there's a force component perpendicular to the projectile's axis, it has a chance to shatter it.
>>29868304
>They usually move at an angle
They usually move parallel or near parallel.
>but what's your point?
The function of Nozh ERA is widely misunderstood despite how simple it is.
>As long as there's a force component perpendicular to the projectile's axis, it has a chance to shatter it.
The linear charge is not able to impart the required force on the penetrator moving past it in a perpendicular direction.
>>29866829
>>29866985
>>29867006
>>29867035
>>29867202
>>29867210
>>29867215
>>29867569
>>29867632
>>29867662
>>29868304
>>29868366
its really not that difficult to understand
>>29868511
That image is not an accurate representation of what happens.
Letting the penetrator hit the linear charges would damage their shape negating their ability to 'cut'. And any penetrator with a sacrificial tip would be uneffected by that layout.
>>29868511
http://dziennikzbrojny.pl/artykuly/art,5,23,8552,wojska-ladowe,wyposazenie,ukrainski-pancerz-reaktywny-noz-czesc-ii-noz-i-duplet
A Polish guy explains it pretty well.
>>29867285
why not add era on top of abrams top tier armour, wouldn't it make it even better? Is it too heavy/redundant?
>>29869029
Because budget.
Thats not a case of "They can't afford it", it's a case of "Compared to all the other things we NEED to spend money on, is this really necessary?"
The answer is no. The turret front isn't vulnerable enough to warrant dumping more money on it, so the money gets used elsewhere to do other things.
>>29868557
>Letting the penetrator hit the linear charges would damage their shape negating their ability to 'cut'. And any penetrator with a sacrificial tip would be uneffected by that layout.
see
>>29868683
I've never seen someone so thoroughly BTFO before
>>29869061
Is ERA so expensive? It's just explosives and metal sheets. Add them only to the tanks that are deployed.
>>29869072
Both of those posts are me, you clearly have no understanding of what is being depicted.
>>29869029
If someone comes up with a weapon than can get through the armor, then ERA can be added.
As the other anon said, if it is not needed then the money can be spent elsewhere.
>>29869331
It's significantly more complicated than that.
And "how expensive" is a redundant question, unfortunately. It costs money -at all-. The budget given to the Abrams only has so much money (Defence budgets aren't one large pot) and the Abrams has to use that money in areas that will provide more impact. If you went and fitted ERA to them, you'd be taking money away from something else possibly more important.
>>29869331
Some of the Abrams deployed to Iraq were fitted with ERA as part of TUSK.
>>29869576
And that was a relatively simple field modification, as it was just swapping the skirts.
>m1 with chobham boron carbide ceramic, du, era, and mesh armor
Muh dick
>>29870271
>chobham boron carbide ceramic, du
Is that what the M1A2 is made of, and the ERA and wire mesh are part of TUSK?
All the different layers of armour on modern tanks makes my head spin.
>>29870604
>Is that what the M1A2 is made of
no
>>29870604
>>29870692
I think I mentioned this at last week's thread, but I'll put this in its entirity here. Part of the statement to Congress about Army Modernization, about a month old. http://www.armed-services.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Williamson-Anderson-McMaster-Murray_04-05-16.pdf
>Mobile Protected Firepower will provide protected, long-range, direct fire capabilities to the IBCT to defeat enemy prepared positions, destroy enemy armored vehicles, close with the enemy through fire and maneuver, and ensure freedom of maneuver and action in close contact with the enemy. The Army plans to conduct the Mobile Protected Firepower Analysis of Alternative in FY17 to assess the operational effectiveness, suitability and life-cycle cost of bot developmental and non-development materiel solutions that satisfy requirements contained within the Initial Capabilities Document.
>>29866833
>they actually reduce M829A3 muzzle velocity so it won't activate Kontakt-5, defeat the ERA
wont this be counterd by simply putting in more sensitive explosives instead of the normal ones?
Can a modern amhibious vehicle take on really rough water during a landing or river crossing? I was reading a bit about DD Shermans sinking in the channe in rough seasl. Could you cross the channel in a BMP? Shit, it's been done in a Toyota pickup truck.
>>29870859
Setting aside the velocity of M829A3 was not changed, making the ERA more sensitive has drawbacks.
>be tank with lots of ERA
>get raked with an HMG
>no more ERA
>>29870892
Depends on the specific vehicle. Generally speaking, most amphibious vehicles will find it very difficult to impossible to act in sea states higher than 3. The most seaworthy CAN work in 4, but they try to avoid it.
Ive been skimming this blog, mainly just saving pics of old soviet tanks in Syria and it mentions that the T-62 had a average rate of fire of 4 rounds a minute. Why is it so bloody slow?
The cramped turret is the onyl thing which comes to kind, but even then, I would have still expected the rate of fire to be quicker by a few rounds.
>>29871445
The gun had to be brought to a certain position before you could reload the thing.
>>29871484
Doesnt the Leopard 2 have to do the same thing though, every Leo vid I see, the gun depresses immediately after firing.
>>29871445
http://youtu.be/QK0jaWmTIWM?t=30s
>>29871492
wtf man. no. The gun depresses so it gets easier to load, and it happens automatically. . This is COMMON.
>>29871493
That's really cramped.
>>29871493
What were the Russians thinking when they came out with this?
>>29871445
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJfvIOAs-2o
It is from this video and TRADOC.
Problem is that they have the guy load very slowly and the shell ejector is shown in slowmotion so the fire rate may actually be 5-6 rounds. But it's fire rate will slow down when the ready rack is empty.
You may watch the whole video since it is pretty good.
>>29871779
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiP410yoQ4M
>>29871779
>>29871825
Downloading the vids now.
>>29870957
you need autocanons for that to happen.
Kontakt-5 have thicker steel walls then Kontakt-1 meaning protection from 50 cal. Also because it is need for stoping APFSDS rounds.
>>29871766
>We need a shitload of tanks to fight the west with
>We don't care how comfortable it is as long as it shoots
>>29871918
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uc-wTlD-_U
>>29872243
that's come gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnmDFMQyZE
Does anyone have the Cold War-era documentary type video that consisted of a tank (I think it was a Leopard 1) running over various trees in a forest?
>>29872432
>Lethality... that's not a word you hear everyday!
>80s soap opera smirk
The M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle. I know it is a near useless battle taxi/scout vehicle/ AT missile launcher/tank looking profile on the horizon, but I like it. If anyone has pictures it would be greatly appreciated.
>>29872946
Don't believe Pentagon Wars, it's breddy gud in its proper combat role.
>>29873025
Pentagon wars?
>>29873143
An HBO comedy that plays on ignorance to create the appearance of scandal. For some reason is treated as a historical documentary.
>>29873220
OK. I just listed as uses and hardware from Wikipedia.
>>29872946
>>29873376
>>29873388
Finland is currently having (relatively) large scale mechanized exercise. Includes Leopard 2, T-55, BMP-2, MTLB and Strikers from an American unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqYg5CFciEU
>>29873407
>>29871493
>they can't even fire the damn cannon without saying allah ackbar five times
WHY IS THIS ALLOWED
>>29873424
last one
>>29873414
if you are the anon who made that thread earlier, thanks for the pictures
>>29872946
>>29870800
Good read, the US Army needs to speed up procurement of the M113 replacement. I don't get why a turretless Bradley needs so much testing.
>>29873824
No urgent operational need so might as well do thorough testing.
>>29873824
>I don't get why a turretless Bradley needs so much testing.
Government wastefulness.
So the frogs are using that thing, had it for several years now, and I found it pretty nice, any other country using such a thing on their vehicles?
It is a shoot location detector, it can locate gunshots, suppresed weapons, discriminates against echos in urban environment, detect RPG (probably ATGMs too i guess) and give coordinate to the remote weapon station or main weapon with 2 to 3° precision. It will be mounted as standard on their new recon/firesupport vehicles and a part of their APCs, the VBCI and Leclerc will be compatible as well after they receive their Scorpion upgrade, and it can even be mounted on a magnetic base so that you can simply plug it on any compatible vehicle. Now for the fun part, it is linked to the RWS which is linked to the scorpion communication infrastructure, which means that, even if an ATGM destroy its target all his buddies, including, let's say, mortar and artillery support, know your location.
Any other system out there offering counter-fire capability to vehicles? Can APS offer the bearing of the incoming ATGM to the gunner? It seems so practical i wonder why everyone is not having its own comparable solution, yet I never heard of anything else like that in service. Did I live under a rock like, the last five years or so?
>>29874823
The Americans and British have the Boomerang III gunfire spotter.
>>29875249
Russia has one as well, but I do not know the name.
>>29873025
> it's breddy gud in its proper combat role.
So why does no one use it?
The Abram got exported to a lot of countries, nobody wants Bradley because it is a lemon.
>>29874823
>Can APS offer the bearing of the incoming ATGM to the gunner?
I remember hearing about something like this. Slews you onto the bearing so the gunner can send a thank you note to the ATGM team, hopefully before it hits you. Not sure if it was part of an APS system or what.
Sharin pic I screencapped from youtube
>>29875487
This pic reminds me of being a kid in my dad's car pretending to be a policeman talking on the radio about robbers and shit moving the wheel around going vroom vroom
>>29875522
kek are you russian qt too?
>>29875423
>why does no one use it
>more Bradley's in use than any non Russian IFV
>>29875423
Wat? Using exports as a metric, that means the Warrior IFV must be shit as well, since only the Bongs and Kuwait uses those, but both the Bradley and Warrior did great in the Gulf Wars.
>>29875423
>the only measurement of a vehicle's quality is export sales
I finally understand how slavs think
>>29869029
The sloping of the armor doesn't lend itself to fitting Heavy ERA, you need something more flat to allow two plates to be mounted V-wise with the ends of the V connected firmly to the armor- giving it a lot of obliquity and spacing for the statistically likeliest part of the turret to be hit.
Heavy ERA is also "surprise-surprise" heavy.
You're looking at 4-5 tons easy for armoring the turret alone which is a lot of weight, and most of that concentrated on the front.
>>29870859
Maybe, but the designers didn't go that route. What they did instead was give heavy ERA even thicker walls(reinforce protection against SLAP like HMG rounds), thicker moving plates(to effectively impart more momentum for yaw effects since the lighter ones had a tendency to be brushed aside by newer rounds) and lesser explosive content(probably more brisant though, and they probably realized the projectile itself supplies enough energy in the interaction); and utilizing more intelligent arrangement of the ERA's internal reactive effects as well as on the armor itself(2 flying plates instead of just one for K-5, Relikt's predecessor). The next step should be wiring all those with the APS to preemptively put flying plates in the path of travel of the projectile much farther away from the tank, enhancing yaw effects and so on.
>>29866299
>Blacktail
I keep hearing about this guy, what's the deal?
>>29876357
If by blacktail he means Blacktail defense then the answer is hes a guy who makes shitty youtube videos bashing every piece of US equipment while cherry picking the hell out of everything.
I know he's got a video titled M1A2 vs M60A3, haven't watched it but I can make a pretty safe assumption he honestly believes the M60A3 is the superior machine.
>>29876357
Sparky's a fucking madman. He thinks the M113 (which he insists on calling the Gavin) is the best thing since sliced bread, and capable of doing all roles better than the vehicles which are currently doing them. He also unironically believes that BBVs are the future, as are submarine aircraft carriers. He also has made various other retarded claims and plans that belie a fundamental ignorance of the basics of military thought and the complete lack of logic one normally only sees in a madhouse. He has a site named "combatreform.com", which is full of his, and several others, writing.
>>29875249
>>29875288
So i lived under a rock. Thanks for the info guys.
>>29874823
>Any other system out there offering counter-fire capability to vehicles? Can APS offer the bearing of the incoming ATGM to the gunner?
Trophy.
>>29876530
>implying the m113 isn't superior to the Stryker, or Humvees and that the USA lacks effective airborne doctrine for 'muh light infantry'
WHAT A MADMAN INDEED
>>29877101
Why are you comparing the M113 with the Humvee? Different vehicles, different roles.
And you'd have to be shitting me if you genuinely think an M113 has more utility than an upgraded Stryker. On protection alone, the Stryker wins hands down.
>>29876530
Sparky's right about alot of things
He brings up the M113 because he wants to talk about whats possible with existing equipment.
A light tracked vehicle would be massively superior to the shytker.
Most importantly he hates the marines, thats something anyone can get behind.
>>29877124
>the Stryker is bad
>or filling the same role as the Stryker
Yeah no.
His fellating of the M113 is horrible. Just look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwHqLtK_TpY
LOOK AT IT. WEEP TEARS OF BLOOD AT THE HORROR YOU ARE WITNESSING.
>>29877124
A broken clock is right twice a day.
>>29877167
This channel and Blacktail Defense gives me ebolaids
>>29877167
Muh Gavin!
>>29877210
You know, that pic (plus a little bit of armor) is pretty much the Hind.
>>29877167
>mfw
this guy is fucking mental
>>29868155
stop with the autistic anime bullshit, japan will get nuked a third time
>>29877124
>Most importantly he hates the marines, thats something anyone can get behind.
I think out of the few videos of his where he's right, most are about USMC being retarded.
>>29877364
You are aware that the nukes did nothing to stop it?
>>29873414
I took part of that exercise
2nd cav a shit, either lagging behind or getting in the way
>>29866544
It looks like something from C&C
>>29877364
>autistic anime bullshit
LOOK WHERE YOU ARE, ANON
>>29877468
story time!
>>29873675
Thanks all for the Bradleys. I will cherish them for many faps to come
Hello people of /thg/.
I recently went to the United Arab Emirates for training purposes and I thought I'd share my sentiment regarding their version of the Leclerc :
1/2
- Firepower : only difference is their roof-mounted 7.62 is remote-controlled. It's better than having to expose oneself, but on the other hand, it blocks a good chunk of view from the commander's sight.
- Mobility : they chose a german engine, a first cousin of the Leopard 2's. It's reliable and behaves well in the harsh conditions of the desert, although it has a tendancy to stall easily. As I suspected, it's less reactive than ours, because we use a turbine instead of a mere turbo. The gearbox is a bit less easy to handle than ours, I found the switch from forward to rearward a bit awkward.
The engine emits huge plumes of thick black smoke when you accelerate, which means that you can be seen from miles in the desert. Our smoke is closer to white/light-gray and as such less obvious.
Braking is less smooth but as powerful as ours.
On a personal note, I highly miss the shrill howling of the turbine characteristic of our version.
- Turret : both gunner and TC are equipped with thermal optics and rangefinder, however they are of older generation than ours and the image is less well defined. The gunner station is essentially identical, save for the air conditionning controls (their AC system is in the chassis and miles ahead of ours). The TC's commands differ quite a lot however : on the French Leclerc they are the same as the gunner's, here you have two fixed handles. It needs a bit of getting used to, but even then it's kind of awkard. When the TC takes control of the turret, he just can't move it as precisely as the gunner does.
- Protection : on their version, the big fore-side plates run longer along the sides, which are therefore better protected. However, the glacis and turret have not received the armour upgrades our latest version has.
>>29877934
2/2
This makes for a nice transition for how it fared in Yemen : it's public information now that about 3/4 were hit, two or three by mines/IED which merely threw the track and messed up the slat armour at the back, one by a missile (I will not disclose which kind) right under the driver's episcopes that killed him and wounded the TC's legs.
This is how shit went down : the platoon was deployed behind a ridge, hidden. The CO wanted them to observe what lay beyond the ridge. The PL advanced to a turret-down position in order to monitor the area with his sight, but instead went too far up the ridge, revealing the entire tank. To the surprise of abso-fucking-lutely nobody, it instantly became a fire magnet. Sniper shots took out both TC and gunner's main sights, and they suffered multiple blows on the front/fore-sides by RPGs. None penetrated. Meanwhile, the PL ordered the driver to hide back, and at that very moment they were hit by the missile.
The tank, however, was fine. Like, there's a hole in the front all right, annnnd that's it. It did not go kaboom, it did not shut down, nothing, not even the slightest minor default. You could have replaced the poor driver and the TC and resumed fighting at once.
That's all folks.
>>29877934
>>29877941
Ayyy awesome thanks for the info, super super interesting. How was UAE otherwise? Did they let you out to explore at all? Oh also how big is French auxiliary turbine?
>>29877934
>>29877941
>first person to die in a Leclerc due to combat did so because of a human fuck up
Good tonk.
>>29877941
So what's your opinion on the quality of the crews over there? Given the scenario you outlined, I don't think it'll be too positive.
I do find it interesting that the snipers went for the sights so quickly. I guess the lessons of how to fight armor have really disseminated across the entire region.
>>29877941
>missile (I will not disclose which kind) right under the driver's episcopes that killed him
Killed instantly or DoW?
>>29877711
not much of a story really, they'd either get lost and somehow end up between us and the enemy
or we would accidently pass because they were doing god knows what in the middle of an open field
>we're doing a charge over a open field to flank the enemy
>scanning for targets in the treelines
>russian stabilizers are shit so its hard to aim with all the shaking
>see APCs and infantry in the forest
>open fire with AP and HE
>report to radio
>finally at the edge of the field
>take a closer look at the apcs
>realize that they were the yankees
>they had dismounted and camo'd their apcs
>during an assault
>that they were the spearhead of
>>29878094
>>open fire with AP and HE
So you killed them with blanks or advance laser tag?
>>29878135
KaSi lasertag
>>29877962
We spent some time in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, it kinda felt like taking a dive in uncle Scrooge's bin. Pretty cool place really.
Our turbine isn't auxilliary (though it can act as an APU), it replaces the traditional turbo of a diesel engine. It's located in the hull with the powerpack. The Emiratis have an external APU but we did not use it.
>>29878008
Mh it's not really my place to comment on that, sorry. I will say though that at the highest echelons the Yemen operation was well led.
>>29878017
Instantly, the hole is level with the head. The TC was hit by shrapnel but kept his legs.
>>29877934
>>29877941
A sober reminder that while we all love to passionately tout the powers of tonks and their huge protection, it can and eventually will happen that someone dies, even from frontal hits.
It's great to hear the Leclerc performed as we all hoped it would though. Certainly puts it more in line with what we've seen of the Abrams and Challenger in terms of proving its ability to keep on ticking under ferocious punishment.
>>29878142
It's so typical that the moment you leave to the UAE, the Leclercs and Challys finally got together in the UK. (No pics yet though)
>>29878143
You're very right.
Also a good reminder that skipping drill won't do and will never do.
They also are very happy with the accuracy, that allowed them to blast people at very long distances.
I'm looking forward to how our own Leclerc will fare in the desert, as it has been announced we would deploy a squadron over there pretty soon.
>>29878151
Mh I saw a video 3 weeks ago, but though it showed some Leclerc there wasn't any Chally in sight yet.
>>29878251
>I'm looking forward to how our own Leclerc will fare in the desert, as it has been announced we would deploy a squadron over there pretty soon.
There being the UAE? No shit...
>>29878251
>Mh I saw a video 3 weeks ago, but though it showed some Leclerc there wasn't any Chally in sight yet.
There was a video that had them both operating in the same area, but not in the same shot at the same time. Had a Challenger running smoke out the engine, then a Leclerc racing (literally) over a bridge later on.
They've definitely been doing some playing around together though. A lot of the defence photographers were off busy with the unexpected access to the Reaper base though, so not as many documents made on Griffin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYvwvckK3U4
what do you think?
>>29878266
Yes.
We have a Legion unit stationed in the UAE (basically a small permanent structure that hosts companies deployed for 4 months missions), but they are coming back to Mother Baguette to become an infantry regiment.
The permanent structure stays but under a new name, the 5th Cuirassiers. Tank squadrons will be able to be deployed there for four months and train in the desert, but with our own tanks.
>>29878307
Here's hoping you don't get involved! I mean, you'd probably look forwards to carrying out your training if you did, but that's overrated. Learn to enjoy the desert without proper AC! Bring a miniature fan with battery to stick in the tank.
>>29878094
Sounds like neither you nor them knew what the other was doing.
It's better to cone to that realization in an exercise than when you are being shot at.
>>29878290
Frenchfag literally posted that video here a few weeks ago....
>>29878464
And? I wasn't here a few weeks ago.
BMPT 2 bump
>>29878643
You can literally do anything with the T-72 chasis, cant you.
>>29878581
We know.
>>29878715
put laz0r
>>29878643
Looks better then the armata shit
>>29879054
Oooh this vid has some of the best tank combat footage I've ever seen. Youtube link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz5tXR2B2NI&list=LLTHgLfn92FRFUnlpZssDa5w&index=122
>Dodging multiple rpgs
>BMP's too!
>Can see GoPro on barrel view as tank takes out group of infantry more than once
Haven't found an english translation other than what that anon posted though.
>>29879091
you should look at the channel of anna news on youtube. They have the translation in various languages.
>>29878715
yep, you name it, Russian make it
>>29879091
Dude drives by tank battle in his sedan on his way to work or whatever. Oh look a tank battle, have a good war tank!
>>29878643
>steel tracks
>>29879688
Whats wrong with steel tracks?
Its not like slavs care if they destroy their roads anyway.
Nice Alfons Åberg meme anyhow
>>29880070
fucks the road
noisy as fuck
uncomfortable as fuck
>>29880070
>>29880157
>>29879688
you can install rubber pad in no time
Slav do it all the time during V day parade
>>29878346
But I *do* hope to get involved, and I probably will, at some point. 4 months tour, given how many tank squadrons are left... the math is unforgiving on that one.
Tanking around in the desert is fun. And without AC ? Been there, done that as a Sagaie driver a long while back. Would not do again 2/10.
>>29880222
Well if that happens, good luck mate.
With the Arrow16 thread going to shitter I am going to repost this.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ghi8iN2zgvU
Excersise has been pretty interesting to watch as an outsider who did have anything to do with armored vehicles during my time in SA-int. Big loud lumbs of steel and death have always been close to my heart.
>>29880370
Posting few pictures
Here is the link to official 2nd Cavalry flickr, click right for exercise photos from few days ago.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dragoon2scr/26208034813/in/photostream/
>>29880370
Im impressed at the speed in which that tread turned into a fucking chaos. Was good while it lasted
>>29880407
We have had the same bloody Russia-NATO shitstorm in Ylilauta for past few months. Good threads completely to shitter and mods don't do shit.
>>29880417
>>29880434
Apparently these kinds of shrubbery camos were kinda new to them.
>>29880202
it also wears a lot faster.
>>29880458
>sneeky sneeky bushes
>>29880486
so?
>>29880458
Along with shrubberies operating under air threat and usage of radios have been apparently things that require more training.
Especially the usage of radios. Our units can't get through pre-battle evaluation if they use radios. All communications are done with full radio silence before hostilities start. This means bike messengers and good planning.
It is also bloody fucking annoying when you can't contact HQ because of some mundane thing and your ATV driver has to take 30km detour thanks to some roads closed due to figthting reasons. And this happens 4am everyday.
>>29880654
Forgot picture
>>29880580
i.e. steel tracks wears a lot more on the road wheels, sprocket etc.
>>29880669
If this is a steel vs rubber track debate, does anyone even make a rubber track that can handle the weight of a T-72 (let alone a T-90 or a Western MBT).
>>29880748
Not really, thats why they are stuff that you use till you have to replace them
>>29880748
The comparison was with steel track with rubber pads, not pure rubber track ala CV90, from what I understood.
>>29880748
A Malaysian company does make them, and in the process, retroduced them to other tracked vehicles in Malaysian army inventory
>>29880669
i am pretty sure every tank snice ww2 use rubber road wheel and rubber washer
here is a T-34 with mix rubber and steel wheel
and most double pin track got rubber layer between the track and road wheel
>>29880788
Ah, isn't it common for steel tracks to have replaceable rubber pads?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4oHSP9KnqQ
Older tracks compared to new one-pin tracks for Malaysian Scorpion CVRT
>>29880894
Nope. They only do that so the tracks don't fuck up the road.
>>29880867
T-34s usually had steel tracks and steel wheel but depending on factory and year of manufacture would sometimes have rubber on the road wheels and steel tracks. Some very rare models had rubber road wheels and rubber track pads.
>>29876414
Not on face to face, direct confrontation, you doofus, it's about being more effective at its intended role. And yes, M60 was and still is a more effective tank than the M1
>>29880956
Keep shitposting out of /thg/ please.
>>29877941
>there's a hole in the front all right,
So was it just a hole, or did it mess up the armor around it aswell? Did you see any pics of the damage? I know from experience that Kornet for example can make quite a mess where it hits.
>>29880902
What's the difference and is there any advantages of the new track design?
>>29880997
>>29880856
>>29880902
As Frenchfag pointed out I made a mistake and thought it was rubber band tracks being talked about, not steel tracks with rubber pads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oKoa8tiCMs
Hey FrenchFag! Long time no see.
You went to the UAE, I do hope that you had the chance to fire some OFL at Al hamra! ^^
What's up? Still in the 1st RCh?
About the XLTs' AC do you really think it is more efficient than the XL(E)? I thought that the air conduit going between the powerpack and the bulkhead was reducing the efficiency of such layout... :/
Bump
>>29880979
It's just a hole. I couldn't pass my fist through it, very clean.
>>29881156
Hello, no, just manoeuvering and simulator-training. Right now I'm at the Armour Academy.
And yeh their AC is definitely much more powerful than ours.
>>29881265
I see. Sucks that you can't post pics or share more info on the missile. Did you get to see the interior? How was it?
Okay!
Not a barrel of laughs... But hey! XLTs to play with...
Quite conter intuitive for the AC. Or, maybe, the air flow is much more important than the EMAT version...
For the missile, K... or T...
Heard both of the DRM and COFRAS versions.
>>29881335
There's a pic but not very telling at all, it looked like it was sprayed with a fine mist of smoke/blood or something. There's no damage apart from the hole and death of the driver.
>>29881600
Feels so strange after seeing all those husks of dead tanks in Donbass and Syria. So clean sounding. Its like somebody took a needle and just emptied balloon without popping it.
AT-mine on hardened steel
>>29881650
Claymore and Sidemine
The jet of a shaped charge can be quite clean when going through objects.
>>29881658
that is a hand made explosively formed penetrator
the factory made one make clean hole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX3b1UH4YAI
This is the difference between a shaped charge warhead and the shaped charge of an AT mine.
One is really focusing the material where the other is just focusing the energy (after all one is supposed to be buried).
>>29881704
The mine on top of the Claymore is the Sidemine. Kinda shitty angle, but you can still see the effectiveness.
>>29881426
Oh it was a very nice experience really, can't complain. I mean, getting extra pay for this kind of stuff is borderline indecent.
And yes, the air flow is more important. I can't speak for the layout though.
Also how the hell did you manage to get DRM *and* COFRAS intel ??
>>29881650
My guess is the TC or gunner hatch was open, so no popping due to overpressure. And it did not strike any ammo so no explosion and flames everywhere. Finally, we can assume reasonably that most of the shaped charge was spent when it finally pierced.
Thoughts on the T-80?
Well, I can say I got some decent contacts! (among wich one got into the damaged tank) Funnily those two tell the same story but with different details! ^^
Regarding the damages, shape charges don't generate overpressure. This would have been another story if the ammo drum was loaded and hit...
>>29881861
Good tank when it was introduced. But just like everything else old, it requires upgrades to soldier on 21st century. One of my favourite prototypes is T-84-120 Yatagan.
>>29881866
Awesomely decent ones, then.
Regarding the shaped charges, redpill me, the only thing we were ever told regarding their effect (and SABOT's effect) is that you quickly go from room temperature to thousands of degrees and then overpressure and ciao.
Can anyone shed some light on why the Soviets designed three different MBTs that essentially did the same thing after the latest upgrades got applied?
I could understand one solid tank for your own guys and one cheap shitty one to offload on your vassals in africa. From the looks however, the T-64, T-72 and the T-80 was used by the soviets, all of them having super duper pre-order only versions reserved for core russian units.
Wouldn't it have been best to select the best one of the three and sticking to that alone?
Well... I always depends from who you've been told.
Personnally, I don't believe in the thermal effect of those ammunitions (except if they trigger the conbustion of the ammo).
After all, why did we put balls inside the tip of our penetrators for quite some time?
And regarding SC jet, we have quite some RETEX with jets cutting through limbs without killing the crew.
>>29881866
The AT4 is claimed to produce 1 bar over normal as well as smoke, bright light and intense heat.
Might it depend on the design of the warhead itself.
Tanks hit by the RPG-29 have survived with little ill effect except for the poor sod who took the jet.
Overpressure from the launch or the warhead???
A common misconception about APFSDS, is that they don't heat up the crew compartment when going through it. They generate a cone of armor fragments when passing the armor.And those fragments are indeed hot.
>>29882307
Mh I see.
I'm also looking for an explanation for the difference in how a shaped charge and a sabot behave when penetrating the armor.
>>29881552
Any more TR-85?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3yu2f_fleche_tech
Extremely simplified but well.. apply some principles like an increase of pressure induce an increase of temperature. Add to that some principle of rheology where some materials are elastic on some conditions of pressure and temperature, plastic on other...
And you have a rough idea of what is going on.
>>29877934
>>29877941
What did you think of the sand monkey operators?
>>29882491
Got this other one and one that's too big to upload.
>>29881988
T-64 was a major fuckup, ended up having a pathetic production run by soviet standards and became a sacrificial lamb stationed in east Germany.
T-80 was fast hard hitting spearhead tank supposed to make a hole in defensive lines and keep going while cheaper tanks in follow-up force moped up.
T-72 was made to fill the gaps between T-80s.
>>29881988
The T-64 was complex and quite impressive, but the Soviets weren't happy with the powerplant, thus the T-72 was made, and it has superior automotive qualities.
The T-80 was an extension of the T-64 philosophy - top of the line technology for the heavy break-through tank units in Europe.
In the end, the T-72 lineage proved the best compromise.
>>29882784
The T-72 exists because of UVZ cronyism, wasn't much cheaper to build than a T-64 and the T-80 was a vastly superior tank.
I'm going to mention something which I just found out about today. Some of you may be aware of the BTR-4, a Ukrainian wheeled APC. Several different variants, mainly using a 30mm autocannon, coaxial PKT, 4x coaxial ATGMs (2 on either side of the turret) and some with a coaxial 30mm grenade machine gun. It's a fairly effective APC, as you might imagine.
However, I noticed something which I hadn't seen before. It posses a variant by the name of the MOP-4K. It swaps out its troop carrying ability to mount a 120mm cannon. Supposedly they use it for direct fire support and to kill tanks, so I find it a rough parallel to the US Army's desire for the MPF program. I have been unable to find out exactly what gun it is, but I did find that it carries 40 rounds of 120mm. I can only imagine it is rather liable to getting catastrophically killed.
There's only one problem- I have seen no real pictures of it, only drawings. Furthermore, there really isn't any information on it anywhere on the English speaking web, and most certainly nothing in my native Spanish. If anyone knows any specifics, I'd be very thankful to hear them.
>>29882910
T-72 was built to unfuck situation created by T-64 not to be cheaper
>>29883022
t. UVZ
>>29883011
AFAIK, no examples of the MOP-4K have ever been produced. Just a proposal.
>>29883022
>>29883066
consider that T-72A have better gun, better engine, better optic, better anything than T-64A
the price is understandable
>>29882627
French crews.
And the "sand monkeys" of the UAE could outbuy any of us.
>>29883111
A comperable tank (by year) to the T-72A would be the T-64B1.
>>29881988
They were all built at different factories (with possible exception of the T80/64).
The T-72 fulfilled the role of the reliable and numerous workhorse (which could stand up to all its adversaries throughout the cold war).
The T-80 is faster and possess better protection than the T-72 and was found in units that would generally be assigned important duties, like breakthroughs or forming an elastic defense.
The T-64 was used because they already had a large production run and they could still get good use out of them as training vehicles or for use in reserve unit. The T-64, being the first auto loader in use by the Soviet Union looked great on paper but its engine was complete trash and it was a mess up until the final models (the British Chieftain tank had a similar issue and development period).
>>29881988
Politics mostly, there is a great article in an old Armor issue, worth a read.
http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARMOR/content/issues/1998/JUL_AUG/ArmorJulyAugust1998web.pdf
>>29866893
>>29866901
Is there anything that guy said that has turned out wrong? The only thing I can think of that still lacks proofs is the smart NLOS rounds.
>>29866833
>they actually reduce M829A3 muzzle velocity so it won't activate Kontakt-5, defeat the ERA
M829 uses a lower velocity than most APFSDS because it uses DU, which suffers more (compared to Tungsten) from diminishing returns as you increase velocity and because it already has an excellent mass and adequate velocity.
>>29884959
>M829 uses a lower velocity than most APFSDS because it uses DU, which suffers more (compared to Tungsten) from diminishing returns as you increase velocity and because it already has an excellent mass and adequate velocity.
Its actually only DU that suffers from diminished returns as velocity increases.
It loses its adiabatic shear property around 2km/s but that is offset by hydrodynamic penetration mechanisms ie material strenghts are more or less ignored and length and density only matter.
At that point though its just as good as WHA which has a similar density and length (assuming similar construction, just the material replaced),
>>29881861
>Thoughts on the T-80?
Should've stayed as a study, bretty much fucked the Soviets and later Russians with a tank that is not much better than a T-72B and yet is couple times more expensive to buy and operate. If it didn't enter widespread production no doubt we would've seen the T-90 in its place much earlier (the first T-90 is a T-72B which pinched the advanced bits of the T-80).
>>29885315
>bretty much fucked the Soviets and later Russians with a tank that is not much better than a T-72B
The only T-72 model that rivals a Soviet era T-80 is the current T-72B3 and T-72B3M.
>>29882910
>The T-72 exists because of UVZ cronyism, wasn't much cheaper to build than a T-64 and the T-80 was a vastly superior tank.
>t. Kharkov shill, or maybe the Polish clown duo with an ax to grind against UVZ.
>>29883233
>The T-64 was used because they already had a large production run and they could still get good use out of them as training vehicles or for use in reserve unit. The T-64, being the first auto loader in use by the Soviet Union looked great on paper but its engine was complete trash and it was a mess up until the final models (the British Chieftain tank had a similar issue and development period).
this. Consider that even after a few years in active service specialists from the factories were regularly called out to fix the tanks. And guess which tank is used more by both sides in the Donbass?
>>29885460
>The only T-72 model that rivals a Soviet era T-80 is the current T-72B3 and T-72B3M.
The latter two actually shits on the T-80, especially at night. Expect the whole thing to be even more one-sided if they ever realize the plans to install Relikt and in a more comprehensive arrangement on this year's T-72B3M batch
>>29885706
>And guess which tank is used more by both sides in the Donbass?
Well the separatists have more T-72's than anything else.
>>29885706
>or maybe the Polish clown duo
I enjoy reading their arguments because fanboys get so angry at them being right most of the time.
Does anybody have price estimates for soviet surplus tank ammunition. It is for RPG and our T-72 is starting to lack shells
>>29887745
between $800-1500 depending on what type of shell it is. $800 for HE and HEAT, $1500 for APFSDS. 20$ for regular powder charges, $80 for AP.
Sauce:
http://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/large-caliber_ammunition.html
>>29887830
Those numbers are from Twilight 2000, a tabletop RPG.
>>29886012
They are good when it comes to Western related armor developments- Damian90 actually even knows more about the Abrams than tripfags here purporting to be Abrams tankers. But when it comes to talking about Soviet and Russian stuff... Its actually particularly hilarious when both sides of the Soviet tank divide agree they're full of shit. Then there is that one time they got duped by a Leo 2A4 measurement fake- never gonna live that shit down.
