how did they fuck up so badly?
>>29819497
I forsee a thread full of thoughtful, educated conjecture and absolutely no shitposting at all.
>>29819497
"Quantity has a quality all of its own."
>>29819724
I wanna shoop a dick in that guys mouth so it'll look like he's giving head
>>29819497
which side?
how did they fuck up so badly?
>>29822434
Doesn't matter how many men you have when you are low on supplies and don't have air superiority (Philippines).
>>29819497
germans overestimated mobility of their forces and their logistic machine, esp ability to recover and repair machinery on the field, so basically what happened to them ww2
>>29819497
Russians knew they were coming, Germans knew they knew but decided to attack anyway because.. shit i don't know, the generals just wanted a big battle and had already decided?
>>29819812
Also this
>>29819497
the Germans attacked one of the most formidable defensive lines with the highest concentration of AT of all time
normal military doctrine states that an attacking force must have atleast a 3:1 ratio to break through a defensive line,5:1 if it's well entrenched,the germans done it in the past by force concentration,having superiority in air or armor to act as force multiplier or bypassing it all together and deception
now Stalin knew what was coming there,he had almost every conceivable advantage and worst the germans threw away blizkrieg in favor of doing mass brute assault
>>29822574
No, the question is, how did the soviets fuck up a defensive position and encirclement so badly?
They should have completely destroyed two army groups and had free reign into Ukraine.
>>29822967
Because their officers had absolutely no clue what they were doing
>>29822967
It would help if the OP wasn't a complete dicksplash and specified who 'fucked up so badly'.
Really though, given that the Germans LOST it really does apply to them [the fucking up that is].
>>29822967
>fuck up
the attacker holds the advantage in setting up the location of the battle,and have the advantage of concentrating his force in a single front,while defenders need to fan out their force
and after his citadel escapade Hitler lost a net amount of 1200 km of land
>>29823463
You are aware that the Soviets knew months in advance where the Germans would be attacking, and had set up miles of minefields, trench networks and had prepositioned an overwhelming amount of men and material there, correct?
>>29823523
yeah,but how is it considered a fuck up?
most of the material losses are non-permanent for the soviet side,since they can reclaim their damaged vehicles,losses in manpower means nothing since the allied had just landed in Sicily,meaning that germany has even less men on their thinning manpower pool and the nazis have lost their strategic intiative never regaining it back
if you just look at the casualty table,sure it looks like the soviet performed horribly but in the end it was the soviets who ended up in Berlin
>>29819497
Kursk was an obvious salient, very clearly prime territory for encirclement.
The Russians, not being retarded, were aware of this and fortified the shit out of it.
The Germans, being retarded, took so long to plan their offensive that the Russians actually had time to fortify the shit out of it.
Then the Allies invavded Sicily half way through the battle and Hitler pulled 2 Panzer division out in the middle of the battle (kek)
>>29823632
Hitler,being a retard that he is pulled out of 2 panzer division and thinks that they could magically travel to Italy and assist the pastas there,while cancelling the invasion that he so adamantly wanted,goddamn he was such a numbnut
>>29823617
It's not about casualties. It's that despite having an encirclement prepared and forces prepositioned for it, they still allowed Germany to save their army groups from destruction and set up a defense in the Ukrainian theater that prolonged the war substantially.
>>29823632
>The Russians, not being retarded,
It had more to do with British intel gathering and decoding than Russian forward thinking.
>>29823667
no he was a genius and invented blitzkrieg, go away kike
how did the defending ruskies take so many casualties?
>>29823698
Germans have better equipment,Luftwaffe had air superiority during the earlier half of the battle,also most of the defensive lines were manned by infantry rather than armor,which is held out for the counter offensive,so there's that factor,and those collapsed lines were rolled up
>>29823632
>russians, not being retarded
never true in the history of the Earth.
Not in pre-history, medieval times, napoleonic war times, ww1, ww2, cold war or modern day.
>Guderian's face when the rebuild panzerwaffe got wasted in one operation
>>29822434
Most of those troops were Filipinos, and most of them were under equipped and not fully trained.
>>29822450
Run out of bullets and beans and see how long you can keep fighting during a siege.
>>29823684
>no he was a genius and invented blitzkrieg
So he got butthurt and threw everything he had at the allies?
>>29823736
Guderian at the time wasn't even in command
>>29819497
They didn't have female infantry
>>29822434
Erich von Manstein is the best German General no matter what Rommel fanboys tell you.
>>29823776
>what is Generalinspekteur der Panzertruppe
>>29819497
Let's count them from the top:
>Took to long to engage the Ruskies
>Terrain was shit in the north
>Attacked the most obvious place on earth
>Ruskies where dug in
>No air superiority
>Ruskies had better and more artillery which was what they needed to force the enemy to leave their dug in positions
>Ruskies even knew when they where attacked
TL;DR the German High command was retarded and picked the dumbest battle to fight.
>>29823784
Manstein problem is that he severely underestimate enemy forces and likes to dismiss intelligence report
but yeah he's definitely the best,he could've prevented the 6th army for getting annihilated if it wasn't for hitler being such a bonehead and think that a few frilly planes could supply starved frostbitten men to hold out until summer
>>29823804
>hitler being such a bonehead and think that a few frilly planes could supply starved frostbitten men to hold out until summer
you can blame the "fat boy" for that
>>29823670
the panzers fought brilliant rear guard action,and most of the germans have managed to retreat to fortified lines by the time rasputitsa kicks in and the soviets got bogged down
>>29823684
>invented Blitzkrieg
Lol no he didn't. His generals did. Even British officers were laying the theoretical foundations for combined arms pretty much immediately after WW1.
>>29823929
also most of the elements are taken off from earlier instances of german maneuver warfare anyway,tanks were thrown into the mix later when they discovered it's usefulness in bypassing lines of defense
>>29823760
Gee, if only someone hadn't moved so much of their food and supplies forward against orders from above...
>>29819497
Well the soviet grunts had horrible training and their commanders didn't care about them.
I mean, jeez, how do you lose more than three times as many men, and more than 8 times the ground units, and four times the aircraft in a single operation?
>>29819497
Soviets had more disposable commie flesh bags to throw at the Germans, simple as that
>>29826331
No, their commanders just didn't care about their lives.
