Does China's Navy have a bright future?
And by that I mean is it possible they'll become the Asian player in the Pacific that rivals the American presence there?
not for a long
long
long
LONG
time
>>29752721
how wong time?
>>29752706
No. No nation will ever come close to the sheer power that the US holds
>>29752758
It'll be, at an absolute bare minimum, forty years before they're even roughly comparable to the USN. They've never had a Midway. They've never been required to support an amphibious landing on the same scale as Normandy, Iwo Jima, or Okinawa. They've never had a disaster on the same scale of the USS Forrestal, something that resulted in comprehensive changes to every conceivable naval procedure on every possible level.
It's not about big boats, it's about using big boats correctly. The USN will have a premium on that for the forseeable future.
>>29752815
It's the simple things. The Liaoning was commissioned nearly four years ago and pilots are still qualifying to actually land on it. China has little to no experience in so many fields. They'll get there, for sure, but it'll take a long time.
>>29752706
When it comes to bullying Vietnam and the Flips, they'll be ready by 2020 or 2025. It'll take another couple of decades on top of that to be an actual global player.
>>29752844
>pilots are still qualifying to actually land on it
You do realize pilots are constantly being rotated in and out of EVERY aircraft carrier, yes?
There has to be new pilots qualifying all the time to keep the pool alive.
>>29752874
No, you doofus. I mean these are the first pilots the PLN has ever qualified for carrier operations. All of their doctrinal and operational knowledge is literally being developed as we speak because they've never had to do it before, when every other notable navy has fifty, or sixty, or even eighty years of operational experience.
>>29752815
>>29752844
>>29752857
That may all be true.
That said, the way they are putting blue-water combatants into the water at a rate of one a month is making me a little nervous. Nobody's done that since we did in WW2.
>>29752936
That depends on if you put any stock in the quality of those ships
Which you shouldn't
They could put a world class navy together in 10 years.
You gotta consider that they make half of the steel in the world. Steel is on the decline in use and they don't want the steelworkers to be unemployed.
>>29752936
Buying a racecar doesn't make you a racecar driver. Nor does it make you competitive in the Indy 500.
Thousands of hours of practice make you a racecar driver, while learning from your mistakes and teamwork with your crew make you competitive.
Spell racecar backwards sometime, you'll see exactly what I'm getting at.
>>29752706
Never. China has a fraction of the resources and useful territory of the United States.
>>29752936
It's like asking when a 5'2" Han man is going to be ready to take on the heavyweight boxing champion. He can get incredible improvement and learn how to box, but he would still literally die if put in the ring with someone with vastly superior power.
>>29752844
They coulf jump start their experience...by starting an actual conflict where they put their equipment, logistics, and tactics to actual use.
I would really love to see a clusterfuck of corruption that would embrass China, to which they REALLY put their foot down on trying to stomp out rampant greed and corruption because if not, the world would know for sure that they're a paper tiger.
>>29752706
>And by that I mean is it possible they'll become the Asian player in the Pacific that rivals the American presence there?
Don't let claps here tell otherwise, but they are getting there, steadily and ever getting faster in fact. 20 years ago they were 30 years behind at the time, now they are 20, some say even 10 years behind merely in some respects.
You don't need to follow exactly on the footsteps of the leader, either. For example people are assuming the Chink end carrier is a strike carrier a la Ford when there is nothing that indicates so or if it even looks beneficial to them.
>>29753586
>It's like asking when a 5'2" Han man is going to be ready to take on the heavyweight boxing champion. He can get incredible improvement and learn how to box, but he would still literally die if put in the ring with someone with vastly superior power.
That's why manlet chink gets a gun instead. Even the Soviet Union which was vastly more powerful than China now or for the foreseeable future actually used asymmetric counters.
>>29753586
>Never. China has a fraction of the resources and useful territory of the United States.
The Chinese economy will surpass the American one in the coming years if it hasn't already, and we all know military power is generally really just a lagging function of economic one.
>>29753659
And what makes you assume that the USN is just going to let the chinks overtake them?
Will they become the dominant Asian navy? Yes. Will they out class the USN? Not anytime in the foreseeable future. Will they be big enough to challenge US dominance? Eventually yes.
The real thesis behind their fleet build up is to project force into the Indian Ocean not the Pacific,that's just saber rattling. They want to maintain SLOC with the middle east and Suez.
They dont want to get cut off from oil way way more than they want to control the BOA between Japan and Hawaii
>>29752815
>forty years before they're even roughly comparable to the USN
this is such bullshit
>>29752974
There is more to having a good navy then just having a bunch of big ships.
>>29753697
>The Chinese economy will surpass the American one in the coming years if it hasn't already,
China's current economic growth is unsustainable even over the short term and no amount of economic growth can change the fact China has far less water, lumber, oil, coal, deep water ports and arable land.
>>29753697
>much Chinese economy
Currently in the largest credit bubble in human history. Can't even trust GDP numbers from Beijing so economists use imports/exports and the Chinese won't be catching up with the US any time soon.
They won't expand the Navy enough to challenge the Pacific fleet because they will need to expand the PLA to put down future civil unrest during the credit unwind.
They obviously don't know what to do about their economy. They were arresting Chinese hedge fund managers the last crash, lol.
>>29753830
>China 65 submarines
That number should be 6. The rest are useful for training but otherwise unsafe to operate.
>>29753830
This infographic is too outdated. China has had an aircraft carrier for 4 years already. A lot can happen in 4 years.
>>29753862
That's what I hate about number comparisons. Yes, NK SOF have three hundred dedicated transport aircraft but they're An-2 Colts.
>>29753784
Chinese economy is imploding while it's middle class demands increasingly more rights and it's authocratic government moves ever closer to the military and stirrs nationalism to keep public support behind it.
Recipe for war if there ever was one
>>29753897
>There will be a Chinese civil war in your life time
And here I thought Syria was fun.
>>29752936
>the way they are putting blue-water combatants into the water at a rate of one a month is making me a little nervous. Nobody's done that since we did in WW2.
>Nobody's done that since we did in WW2.
We then got experience and feedback from actual combat that molded how we did and make things subsequently.
China isn't in an armed conflict right now. All they got is off of training and whatever their doctrine dictates.
And while you can argue the USN hasn't really been in a naval battle in a long while, you can't argue that China's Navy has seen any combat this side of post-WWII. Not to mention the USN has been operating in support of the war in the Middle East, so there's the logistics and support experience being gained.
But China's Navy? What sort of actual test has it gone through? I'm drawing a blank.
>>29753897
>middle class demands
You made me chuckle there.
The Chinese middle class haven't made any significant demands or organised protests since Tiananmen 1989, and most Chinese people are fully aware of the extent to which their quality of life has improved in the past 20 years. You may wish for civil war in China but it's never gonna happen, buddy.
It would take several generations for China to build a surface navy able to compete with the U.S. Navy. Simply training naval aviators to conduct carrier-based operations effectively would take decades — at least until these trainees became admirals and captains. And this does not take into account the time it would take to build an aircraft carrier and carrier-capable aircraft and master the intricacies of carrier operations.
For China, the primary mission is to raise the price of a blockade so high that the Americans would not attempt it. The means for that would be land- and submarine-based anti-ship missiles. The strategic solution is for China to construct a missile force sufficiently dispersed that it cannot be suppressed by the United States and with sufficient range to engage the United States at substantial distance, as far as the central Pacific.
This missile force would have to be able to identify and track potential targets to be effective. Therefore, if the Chinese are to pursue this strategy, they must also develop a space-based maritime reconnaissance system. These are the technologies the Chinese are focusing on. Anti-ship missiles and space-based systems, including anti-satellite systems designed to blind the Americans, represent China's military counter to its only significant military threat.
China could also use those missiles to blockade Taiwan by interdicting ships going to and from the island. But the Chinese do not have the naval ability to land a sufficient amphibious force and sustain it in ground combat. Nor do they have the ability to establish air superiority over the Taiwan Strait. China might be able to harass Taiwan but it will not invade it. Missiles, satellites and submarines constitute China's naval strategy.
>>29753784
>China has far less water, lumber, oil, coal, deep water ports and arable land.
natural resources they can always just buy from the Rooskies. deep water ports they can always create- you do know China is knida the undisputed master of infrastructure megaprojects, and their putiated disregard for muh, HR and muh environments even opens up options like digging using nukes.
arable land is also not that much of a problem, they can always cut back on that insanely huge meat production of theirs, easily sustain a much larger pop than today. incidentally the Soviets imported grains to feed the meat production industry- some senile old coot saw the disparity in favor of Westerners in meat consumption(irrespective of the fact that both diet is bretty much good enough for their populations) and thought they must not allow a meat consumption gap.
>>29753786
>Currently in the largest credit bubble in human history. Can't even trust GDP numbers from Beijing so economists use imports/exports and the Chinese won't be catching up with the US any time soon.
Isn't this like the same story around the world for every major economy, bubbles threatening to blow the whole thig up?
>They won't expand the Navy enough to challenge the Pacific fleet because they will need to expand the PLA to put down future civil unrest during the credit unwind.
and you know this how? where was the massive civil unrest after the 2k8 housing market collapse- that one threw millions of people into joblessness, even further debt and even out of their homes?
>They obviously don't know what to do about their economy. They were arresting Chinese hedge fund managers the last crash, lol.
better than giving bailouts to the guys that orchestrated the fuckening.
>>29752815
>this whole post
You seem to not have read OP's question.
>And by that I mean is it possible they'll become the Asian player in the Pacific that rivals the American presence there?
Which is arguably already happening. America has about one CBG, plus three subs, formerly one LCS, and two destroyers in the region.
>>29753911
>civil war
>PLA China
What exactly would the sides be?
>Go back to being pure communist, fucking disgusting capitalism
vs.
>Keep at it with current progress
?
Any 50 cents want to weigh in?
>>29752918
There first three batches of naval aviators have already been qualified if Chinese media is to be trusted.
Then again it has been around since 2012. I wouldn't doubt it.
>>29753958
>and their putiated disregard for muh, HR and muh environments even opens up options like digging using nukes
Except the Chinese are actively trying to be seen as more environmentally friendly than ever before.
Even chinks won't put up with shit like this forever.
>>29753951
>For China, the primary mission is to raise the price of a blockade so high that the Americans would not attempt it.
>What is the New Silk Road?
or even take measures taht render such a blockade ineffective. What the fuck are you gonna do? nuke Russia to get to those vital supplies?
>>29752857
Umm.... They are already bullying the fuck out of those shitholes with their coast guard.
Chinese Naval ships don't even help out with the catfights anymore.
>>29752792
No. No nation will ever come close to the sheer power that the British Empire holds.
>>29752964
The US navy and RAND do.
You seem to think the Chinese have not copied the very qualified Russian naval systems.
The greatest military threat to China comes from the United States Navy. The Chinese have become highly dependent on seaborne trade and the United States Navy is in a position to blockade China's ports if it wished. Should the United States do that, it would cripple China. Therefore, China's primary military interest is to make such a blockade impossible.
>>29753978
>Even chinks won't put up with shit like this forever.
with a state controlled media, info censorship, and brutal crackdown on growing dissidents?
Unless the chinese population experiences Tianjin explosions in every city, everyday, they ain't going to do shit except maybe be mad for a bit, then go back to trying to climb the social ladder.
>>29753462
You need racecars to be a racecar driver...
So the tripfag is right about the pace being important. He obviously is saying the future will be when they have a lot of racecar drivers.
>>29753586
>Never. China has a fraction of the resources and useful territory of the United States.
Umm no. By some measurements they own more land and have more natural resources.
Also, the 5'2" guy is fighting with high technology. Not his fists.
>>29753656
>I would really love to see a clusterfuck of corruption that would embrass China, to which they REALLY put their foot down on trying to stomp out rampant greed and corruption because if not, the world would know for sure that they're a paper tiger.
You should see the reforms Xi has done. His BLUFOR team is using western tactics and the joint command system, and is BTFOing the REDFOR teams. It's also discrediting the corrupt old generals, who are being replaced.
>>29753716
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-06/navy-plans-to-spend-81-4-billion-on-ships-subs-through-2021
Well we just cut 10 ships off the planned 5 year procurement budget.
>>29753971
>What exactly would the sides be?
The normal working class leaning towards the current authoritarian government and path of devleopment vs the miniscule sjw types they can scrape a la HK.
>>29753978
>Except the Chinese are actively trying to be seen as more environmentally friendly than ever before.
Then don't use nukes. use the conventional methods available but speed them the hell up; they can actually afford to and they've done it.
Besides current tech is much better for unfucking up the environment. Heck 70s Japan was just as bad if not worse in some ways wrt environmental damages caused by unrelenting industrialization and yet here they are still. they are even one of the cleanest nations and thats achieved with only 80s-90s tech.
>>29753993
>You seem to think the Chinese have not copied the very qualified Russian naval systems.
They actually haven't. Those are Soviet systems and current Russian designs actually diverge a lot from them.
>>29754013
I'm not sure how the PRC can cover up from teh citizenry the huge fucking toxic cloud that you and everyone you know is breathing in everyday.
Reminder that pic related will render all American navy vessels vulnerable and obsolete.
>>29753784
>the fact China has far less water, lumber, oil, coal, deep water ports and arable land.
You're wrong on a number of these claims.
Also, what matters is not the quantity of these resources, but their usefulness/price.
>>29753786
>Currently in the largest credit bubble in human history. Can't even trust GDP numbers from Beijing so economists use imports/exports and the Chinese won't be catching up with the US any time soon.
And that's a bullshit claim. America 2008 was a bigger credit bubble.
And guess what. America did not have a 50% savings rate and a trade surplus, or $3.4 trillion in FX.
>>29753862
Great fucking meme. It's been 12 years since a Chinese sub had a major accident.
>>29753784
Yes keep disagreeing with the IMF.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-reforms-give-global-economy-some-breathing-room-leaders-say-1460898644
They just raised their 2016 and 2017 GDP growth outlooks to 6.6% and 6.4% respectively. The only upgrade in the entire IMF report by the way.
China has BIG problems, but you /k/ fucks are always wrong on economics.
>>29754036
>You should see the reforms Xi has done. His BLUFOR team is using western tactics and the joint command system, and is BTFOing the REDFOR teams. It's also discrediting the corrupt old generals, who are being replaced.
That's good. But there's still tons of work to do. Not saying the US is free of corruption, it's littered with it, but not to the scale of Chinese corruption.
I feel sorry for an old as fuck nation that was the gold standard in the East, then just went to shit and made one horrible decision after another in modern era.
>>29753760
You need a big navy before you can have a good, big navy.
>>29754069
reminder that we BTFO that fucking thing in a thread yesterday.
DF21 is shit.
>>29754038
>the miniscule sjw types they can scrape a la HK.
>rest of China
That's not a civil war, though. The government would easily fucking crush HK if they have to, consequences be damned.
I mean, what the fuck is the rest of the world going to do?
>>29753897
>Chinese economy is imploding while it's middle class demands increasingly more rights and it's authocratic government moves ever closer to the military and stirrs nationalism to keep public support behind it.
>Recipe for war if there ever was one
What the fuck are they feeding you guys in the West?
>>29754069
>trusting china's own reports
Bad idea mang
>>29753914
>And while you can argue the USN hasn't really been in a naval battle in a long while, you can't argue that China's Navy has seen any combat this side of post-WWII. Not to mention the USN has been operating in support of the war in the Middle East, so there's the logistics and support experience being gained.
Wrong.
>But China's Navy? What sort of actual test has it gone through? I'm drawing a blank.
There's been a number. You being ignorant is to be expected considering this is /k/.
>>29753951
>China could also use those missiles to blockade Taiwan by interdicting ships going to and from the island. But the Chinese do not have the naval ability to land a sufficient amphibious force and sustain it in ground combat. Nor do they have the ability to establish air superiority over the Taiwan Strait. China might be able to harass Taiwan but it will not invade it. Missiles, satellites and submarines constitute China's naval strategy.
The post was good until you said this.
Might want to take a look at what Taiwanese intelligence reports show about how long Taiwan could last. The number isn't in the months mind you.
>>29754057
tell them it isn't THAT toxic.
tell them a mask is sufficient enough to block out everything.
tell them it's temporary for progress.
tell them it'll be better once they get those green-generators up and running.
And when those people all develop cancer?
tell them it's X or Y source instead.
tell them altered numbers of reports of cancer.
tell them that specific cancer is normal and make up bullshit science.
tell them the government will send compensation checks to everyone (but not really).
I mean, what the fuck are you going to do? March up to the government and demand the truth? I hope your kidneys and liver is healthy, because you're not going to be needing them later.
>>29754085
Link? I want to read it.
>>29754036
>Umm no. By some measurements they own more land and have more natural resources.
China is 3.7 million square miles.
The United States is 3.8 million square miles.
There's no other way to measure that. The US is, literally, larger.
The US has 27% of the world's recoverable coal reserves. China has 13%
China is 5th in renewable water resources, America is 3rd.
The US is 1st in arable land, China is 4th.
But yeah. They've got more illiteracy and crushing poverty.
>>29754100
>call me ignorant.
>doesn't provide sources to prove it
Ok.
I actually want to know too.
>>29754116
it's archived and a long one, but a good read.
we even managed to summon oppenheimer.
>>29730211
>>29753971
Between the Maoists and the people with brains.
Under Xi, the people with brains are in power. Sadly, they are still assholes.
But the point is invalid. Civil war sounds like Holocaust to Chinese people. Anyone who thinks China is anywhere near general civil unrest, let alone civil war, is fooling themselves.
>>29753978
Air pollution, at least, has fallen every year since 2011.
2015 was a "good" (relative) year because of the heavy industry slowdown.
>>29753998
That's questionable.
A blockade of China would definitely hurt their economy, but China is self-sufficient in most food... And if they shut down their heavy industry like they do on polluted days already, they can avoid running out of energy.
It'd be bad, but they are not nearly as vulnerable to blockade as one would expect.
Nonetheless it is their greatesr threat.
>>29753958
When stocks are in a sell off, arresting heads of brokerage firms if they sell stocks is complete insanity and destroys the validity of the market.
The Chinese credit bubble is larger than 2008 and larger than any nation has ever seen. Just the corporate debt in China is one and a half times GDP and that doesn't include household or the shadow banking debt(something the west doesn't have).
If how the CCP handled the last sell off is any indication of how they are going to handle the largest credit unwind in human history we will continue to see Chinese profits be transferred to US and Canadian assets while the non performing liabilities continue to be dumped mainland. The CCP is driving all the capital generated by the markets and economy out of the country because people are afraid they are going to have their assets frozen and get locked up in the next wave of purges on the rich.
Not to mention, remember the giant pile of foreign currency reserves that made China the envy of the world? The CCP is burning through them to prop up the markets and at the rate they are going they will be gone in 1 year. ONE YEAR.
I lived in China for two years so I have an idea of how the people might respond. All I'm saying is hold on to your butts.
>>29754129
>Anyone who thinks China is anywhere near general civil unrest, let alone civil war, is fooling themselves.
Would the whole different perspective thing be due to different culture and values?
I mean, whenever people ask why USA and guns are so BFF, I always believed it was a root of our focus in individualism, freedom to our own lives, and of course the frontier self-reliance thing.
Compared to China's much more long history of unity and not fucking it up and being divided and suffering constant conflict bullshit.
>>29754158
>I lived in China for two years so I have an idea of how the people might respond.
I don't know about you, but I really liked the early morning food stalls, sure the hygiene and cleanliness wasn't all there, but goddamn some of those food were great.
>>29754053
The HJ-9 on all their destroyers is literally modern Russian copied tech. The Ak- ship gun is modern Russian tech. Most of the ship engines are modern Russian tech.
Just because the Sovermenny and a few others are late-era Soviet tech, does not mean the 52D is.
>>29754172
Don't they use gutter grease to cook their foods in those stalls?
>>29754074
China's lit the roof on fire to keep the house warm, economically. They are increasing government spending and massively increasing lending in order to stimulate the economy. Great stuff, wonderful. They are building a lot of new capacity with that money.
It's capacity literally no one needs, however.
Not to mention there's a zombie apocalypse coming. Sorry,not the exciting /k/ kind, but the fact that a giant number of Chinese companies are going to stop being profitable when the sweet sweet easy loans go away.
The open question is how long they can keep the stimulus going. Each cycle of stimulus is providing less benefit now, as it just builds more shit nobody needs, but Chinese construction sector is the largest economic bubble in human history.
>>29754175
like I said
>sure the hygiene and cleanliness wasn't all there
but the funny thing was how after eating all that street shit, I got food poisoning from an actual higher end restaurant.
>>29754079
Oh yeah. Even Xi's reforms of the military and economy still leave China behind America in both areas.
You won't see China overtaking America in those areas until the Politicial System of China enters the 21st century.
But at least now China's military is truly under political control (and isn't semi-indepedent). It's being shown how backwards it is, and the military is responding.
I'd put China at 1980 Soviet tier tactics right now. In a decade they might be up to 2000 America.
>>29754162
>China
>history of unity
nigga wat
Short answer OP, no.
The long answer is that maritime activities are as much a profession as it is an industry, and the latest crop of Chinese sailors are the first since the the fucking 15th century.
Given that China has zero history or expertise in doing ship stuff in the modern era, I'd expect China to have a good Navy in about 60 years, if they build a proper naval academy and drill shit regularly and actually get into a naval war with some not-US, not-Japan power.
China can certainly build ships, even if it might have to steal the designs from someone who knows how to build ships. But stocking those ships with sailors that aren't retarded and don't panic when there's a hole in the hull and the ship is in danger of sinking...that's much much harder and worse for China, they can't just throw billions of yuan at it and call it a day. It takes time to make good sailors.
>>29754172
Oh dude... Let me tell you. I'd die for som Ma La Tang or to eat street bbq outside of a bar while sitting on a tiny child's plastic stool. I fucking loved living there. Can confirm that if you go to Beining on the wrong day you will go in to a complete sinus and nasal crisis. The pollution can be really really bad. Most cities aren't as bad though.
>>29754200
I'm saying that's what they WANT.
>>29754121
>Covering approximately 9.6 million square kilometers, China is the world's second-largest country by land area,[17] and either the third or fourth-largest by total area, depending on the method of measurement.[i]
China produces 50% of the world's coal. I'd take actual production numbers over "potential" numbers that depend completely on the spot price.
>By IEA the top 10 coal producers in 2011 were (Mt): China 3,576 (46%), United States 1,004 (13%), India 586 (8%), Australia 414 (5%), Indonesia 376 (5%), Russia 334 (4%), South Africa 253 (3%), Germany 189 (2%), Poland 139 (2%) and Kazakhstan 117 (2%). In 2011 total coal production was 7,783 Mt.[1]
>renewable water
I don't recall you mentioning that.
>arable land
Yes and wasn't arguing that.
>more illiteracy
When did you mention this?
>crushing poverty
When did you mention this?
>>29754193
I think they will modernize and get closer to where they should be if the country doesn't get distracted by a huge implosion.
They are trying for moving millions of migrant workers into unsold housing in nearly empty cities, a problem when these people barely can read and can never pay a fraction what the housing is worth, so they still won't be profitable. There is also the small problem that the north is running out of water.
>>29754219
China has a grand history of giant revolutions where they kill off millions of people because the past failed them. The US has a longer history of civil unity and peace then China.
>>29754244
>The US has a longer history of civil unity and peace then China.
The average Chink dynasty is around 250 years.
Which is longer than the USA. And you hicks already had a civil war.
Dial USA history to the length of the Chinese one and lets see how many more Civil Wars you guys will have.
>>29754262
>Dial USA history to the length of the Chinese one and lets see how many more Civil Wars you guys will have.
it doesn't work like that, but okay, live in fantasyland.
>>29754158
>When stocks are in a sell off, arresting heads of brokerage firms if they sell stocks is complete insanity and destroys the validity of the market.
There's also a guaranteed amount of investors that literally broke the law. China has massive corruption problems and this is part of the crackdown and enforcement of the "law".
Also, stocks are up 120% since 2014.
>The Chinese credit bubble is larger than 2008 and larger than any nation has ever seen. Just the corporate debt in China is one and a half times GDP and that doesn't include household or the shadow banking debt(something the west doesn't have).
America in 2008 was larger. America did not have the world's largest trade surplus, 700% of GDP in asset savings, $3.4 trillion in FX, and a 50% savings rate.
Also, 98% of China's debt is owed in China. It's generally the SOE's owing the state run banks.
Great picture about this exact situation. I can provide link as well.
>If how the CCP handled the last sell off is any indication of how they are going to handle the largest credit unwind in human history we will continue to see Chinese profits be transferred to US and Canadian assets while the non performing liabilities continue to be dumped mainland. The CCP is driving all the capital generated by the markets and economy out of the country because people are afraid they are going to have their assets frozen and get locked up in the next wave of purges on the rich.
The CCP literally saved the market from complete collapse. It's up 120% since June 2014.
Also, capital outflows are at $24 billion in March. They've slowed every month since December.
You are wayyyyy too pessimistic about China's economy. It's a mistake investors have made since 1979.
>>29754267
different geography, different neighbors, and most importantly, different era. So it isn't going to be so cut and dry when comparing.
>>29754237
>Water resources aren't important.
China is currently working on the most expensive infrastructure project ever to transfer water from the south to the north, where cities are literally running out of water. The water they divert is so polluted when it reaches lakes and reservoirs it kills all the fish.
Freshwater is a massive, looming problem for China.
>China's using up coal resources faster, so it must have more coal.
No. The US has more recoverable coal then China by a huge margin. China is burning coal faster because you can dump fly ash in an open pit and nobody makes you pay any money to clean it up. The idea that you think China has more coal because they are mining more coal is fucking stupid.
>>29754158
>Not to mention, remember the giant pile of foreign currency reserves that made China the envy of the world? The CCP is burning through them to prop up the markets and at the rate they are going they will be gone in 1 year. ONE YEAR.
FX reserves rose $38 billion in March.
The Yuan appreciated 3% YoY.
The FX reserves are at $3.4 trillion.
If it took 12 months, they'd be spending $400 billion a month. They spent $400 billion all of 2015.
>>29754270
Trade surpluses are the result of insufficient demand from China's domestic sector and will dissolve the nanosecond one of two things happens:
>China stops financially repressing the household sector
>The US intervenes in trade
Since China is actively trying to stop financially repressing its household sector and the US has not one, but two trade interventionists vying for the White House this election, I'm inclined to be pessimistic about China's trading future.
Someday. Not even a chinaboo.
But where there's a will there's a way.
They want to be the major power in the pacific.
So they'll spend the money. They just wont need 11 carriers. Four should do. Plus all their little ready made islands.
But what they'll end up doing is forcing everyone else to ally against them.
>>29754213
Only ever stayed in Shanghai for long periods of time. It's pretty "awe-inspiring" and especially when you're in that state of mind, to see yourself on the streets of old rickety buildings, bamboo structures, hand built whatever that litter the street corners, and unkempt roads. Then you look up at the backdrop and you see massive modern skyscrapers and apartments.
The smell though. I always think back to Shanghai when I smell certain type of wood burning due to all the older neighborhoods still using charcoal.
It's sad China's in such a frenzy state of tearing down all the old for modernization, especially a storied neighborhood that has been standing there from before WWII for a fucking road to add to their trillions of other super roads that go directly to a toll booth.
>>29754175
Maybe in the slums.
>>29754182
>China's lit the roof on fire to keep the house warm, economically. They are increasing government spending and massively increasing lending in order to stimulate the economy.
The amount of spending is still below the 2009 stimulus level. Also, Chinese companies and banks frontload all their lending. You're literally freaking out over an event that happens every year (to an admittedly lesser extent).
Great stuff, wonderful. They are building a lot of new capacity with that money.
Except they literally are not building new capacity right now. They have been cutting heavy industry a ton and 3 million workers have been laid off.
>It's capacity literally no one needs, however
They literally are not increasing capacity.
>Sorry,not the exciting /k/ kind, but the fact that a giant number of Chinese companies are going to stop being profitable when the sweet sweet easy loans go away.
Actually, profits in Chinese companies were just reported to have risen 11.1% YoY. They beat market expectations.
>The open question is how long they can keep the stimulus going. Each cycle of stimulus is providing less benefit now, as it just builds more shit nobody needs,
>nobody needs
They are not adding to supply capacity. Until you show me proof otherwise.
It worked in 2009. And if it helps transition the economy to services and consumption, as it has been doing greatly, it will be worth the cost.
>but Chinese construction sector is the largest economic bubble in human history.
Another nice meme. Chinese housing prices to average wage are some of the lowest in the world. Even with the recent housing price appreciation (4.5% YoY) China's average house price has only risen 110% since 2000.
America on the other hand has risen 340%.
Chinese houses are actually UNDERVALUED and DIFFICULT to buy. They don't even let foreigners own houses.
>>29754280
So says the PBOC.... The stock market tells another story. Right now they are running POMO of more than $100billion a month. With diminished returns the reserves won't be around much longer.
>>29754262
The US is way ahead on 'days from the last time we killed millions of our own people and shot everyone that knew or taught history'.
>>29754244
>think they will modernize and get closer to where they should be if the country doesn't get distracted by a huge implosion.
They are. There is no huge implosion coming so you can rest assured.
>They are trying for moving millions of migrant workers into unsold housing in nearly empty cities, a problem when these people barely can read and can never pay a fraction what the housing is worth, so they still won't be profitable. There is also the small problem that the north is running out of water.
98% of Chinese can read and write.
The migrant workers are generally able to afford housing on long-term loans. The problem is Huoku doesn't get transfered easily so most migrants don't buy a house.
The North is low on water, but the eastern water transfer route and central water transfer route have alleviated that greatly this last year.
>>29754310
>Another nice meme. Chinese housing prices to average wage are some of the lowest in the world. Even with the recent housing price appreciation (4.5% YoY) China's average house price has only risen 110% since 2000.
The only reason it isn't in free-fall is because of crazy government controls, they have huge amounts of unsold inventory. A home in China should be dirt cheap, they have far, far more supply the demand.
I get you are trying to rose glasses this, but China is fucked. Profitability rose because of lending but the whole thing is on feet of clay.
>They aren't building new capacity.
They are. If you think this isn't great you really don't want to see what the steel and heavy equipment markets in China do when the construction bubble pops.
>>29754244
>think they will modernize and get closer to where they should be if the country doesn't get distracted by a huge implosion.
They are. There is no huge implosion coming so you can rest assured.
>They are trying for moving millions of migrant workers into unsold housing in nearly empty cities, a problem when these people barely can read and can never pay a fraction what the housing is worth, so they still won't be profitable. There is also the small problem that the north is running out of water.
98% of Chinese can read and write.
The migrant workers are generally able to afford housing on long-term loans. The problem is Huoku doesn't get transfered easily so most migrants don't buy a house.
The North is low on water, but the eastern water transfer route and central water transfer route have alleviated that greatly this last year. >>29754276
>China is currently working on the most expensive infrastructure project ever to transfer water from the south to the north, where cities are literally running out of water. The water they divert is so polluted when it reaches lakes and reservoirs it kills all the fish.
Central and eastern route are complete and providing decent water. At least that's how it looked to me from the pictures I took.
You are thinking of one story of when they diverted a separate river into a nearby lake, and this separate river was polluted by the diversion. The actual central water transfer project river is "clean".
>Freshwater is a massive, looming problem for China.
North China mainly. Things got better last year because of the water transfer projects being completed.
>>29754276
>No. The US has more recoverable coal then China by a huge margin. China is burning coal faster because you can dump fly ash in an open pit and nobody makes you pay any money to clean it up. The idea that you think China has more coal because they are mining more coal is fucking stupid.
"Recoverable" is the keyword. There's a reason Americs doesn't "recover" this coal. Hint, it has to do with the spot price.
America has the most oil in the world. But we can't produce it because it's too fucking expensive.
So technically you are right (though I'd like to see the source) but in a market economy it's meaningless.
>>29754286
>Trade surpluses are the result of insufficient demand from China's domestic sector and will dissolve the nanosecond one of two things happens:
Oh and what about Germany and Japan and South Korea then?
>Since China is actively trying to stop financially repressing its household sector and the US has not one, but two trade interventionists vying for the White House this election, I'm inclined to be pessimistic about China's trading future.
Agreed on the first point. The second point is retarded. Presidents don't control tariffs and trade deals. They simply negotiate new ones using the USTR.
>>29754319
>So says the central bank
If you're going to not trust the central bank which has been honest about everything so far, then I can't change your mind.
The Yuan is up 3% YoY. That's my indicator of capital outflows.
>>29754310
I realize you're a paid shill but I invite you to take a walk outside your office. In the three cities I lived in there all the office buildings were maybe 50% full. There were oceans of apartments being built on the ouskirts with maybe 10 units sold of 500 or more. They were ghost towns. Of course prices aren't going to go up with all the unsold units. And they are only being kept from crashing by never ending credit to float the loans.
Even with everyone buying a second home as an "investment" there are tens of millions of excess units. The tragedy is not only are the construction companies going to fail, all the poor middle class citizens that invested in rental units or condos to flip are going to have their savings wiped out.
Like I said, I know you're just a shill but I have lots of people I still consider family over there that are painting me a different picture and of course I was there only a couple years ago.
But continue on Beijing Bob.
>>29754319
>POMO of $100 billion a month
That happened once in January.
And you don't seem to understand what those are.
>>29752706
>Does China's Navy have a bright future?
>skyjump
1000 years of bad luck
>>29754385
*ski jump
take these half thought/ ignorant economics shit to /biz/ where it belongs
>>29754344
>The only reason it isn't in free-fall is because of crazy government controls, they have huge amounts of unsold inventory. A home in China should be dirt cheap, they have far, far more supply the demand.
Once again, nice meme. The down payment on China's houses in 2014-2015 when the prices fell 5.5% YoY was literally 50% of the houses value.
Now it's 30%.
If anything the government was standing in the way of buyers because of exactly what is happening now in the coastal cities.
The demand has risen dramatically all across the board. It just has been focused on the coast.
>I get you are trying to rose glasses this, but China is fucked. Profitability rose because of lending but the whole thing is on feet of clay.
>rose because of lending
Not how it works. And the stimulus efforts only began this spring. They wouldn't have affected YoY profits in March.
>feet of clay
Or maybe the fact Chinese households with debt at only 40% of GDP (lower than almost every country in the world) are now spending and the service sector is growing 8% YoY.
See... I have invested in Chinese assets since 2002, and I've seen a lot of bear calls. I'm gonna stick this one out in safer assets, and so far, even with 2015, I'm up roughly 2,000%. Better than the S&P 500.
>>29752706
Mate...
Coming from a navy let me say that the "fag" jokes and shit come with a very very large unspoken but at the end of it.
Americas Navy, by itself, has the resources and sustainability to fight in any theater for any amount of time, differentiating it from the other two military branches.
>>29754267
>"We aren't as divisive as that thousand-year old empire based on our 200 years or so of history."
This is what you're trying to say m8.
Its not fantasy that the US only had 200+ years of history. Its pretty silly when you say WE'RE NOT AS DIVISIVE AS THOSE GUYS! When you're just fucking starting your shit.
Who know what the future will fucking bring for you nignogs?
>>29754398
coming from a navy family*
Also true fact. Just in our submarines nuclear arsenal we have enough firepower to level every inch of not-water on the planet /3 times over/ and it could all be accomplished in less than 24 hours.
>>29754375
Of course I do, it's my job to know and the reason I'm awake at this hour. PBOC is injecting that liquidity 5 days a week now and hasn't stopped yet. Trust me, we'll all know the second it stops.
>>29754368
>muh anecdotes
>muh paid shill
Fuck off cuck. Here's my carrier. Good luck explaining how a Chinese citizen is in NAS North Island and works on CVN 70.
>>29754404
>NAS North Island
You mean the home of Naval Aviation? The base that's 100% unclassified and regularly holds "open bases" for people to come look at naval aircraft/ships?
>>29753586
>blatant jingoistic thinking
Go to bed. Adults are talking.
>>29754404
Wow a photograph from a parking lot. It's fucking nothing. Cuck? I "muh dick'd" my way through all of Shanghai, Bejing and Hangzhou when my company sent me over there. There has to be a t least a hundred pussies still sore over there.
Anyways. Reality is going to flesh this out. Honestly I hope I'm wrong about their economy. But I doubt I am. I was on the ground there for two years and got a pretty good picture of it. Dire straights ahead.
>>29753830
>china
>conscripts
good meme
>>29753875
The fact that there's only one type 071 in the picture means that it's more than 5 years old.
>>29754426
I don't understand this meme
>>29752706
If they can launch the fuckhueg j-20 off a carrier I will be thoroughly impressed
>>29754699
Naw son, J-20 ain't no carrier capable bird.
That's what the J-15 is for, son.
>>29754158
Zerohedge, huh?
>>29754710
>canards
>>29754721
Do wonders for STOBAR
>>29754721
Yeah? Looks fuckin' sweet
>>29754737
Wow, is that a Chink aircraft?
You'd think Commie (well, ex commie ones) armies would be strict about putting art on their vehicles.
>>29754748
The J-15's nickname in China is "Flying Shark."
>>29753830
That single amphibious - China has 4 and 4 building 071s
>>29753970
America could always put more.
Look at what we put into the first gulf war invasion, and that was for fucking iraq.
>>29754675
I don't believe the Chinese have conscripts. Their numbers are fulfilled by voluntary recruits.
>>29754675
You used to conscript people, and theoretically still do. Did you think those massive armies from the early 20th century were all volunteers?
>>29752706
Not for a good while. 50 centers think that just building frigates is enough, they're making the same exact mistake the soviets did in the 50s and 60s with their navy and didn't fully adopt until the late 80s, you need institutional experience and practical experience that takes decades to get. Only then can you have a truly effective force.
>>29754125
>lolol I dun believe it
>lolol China just copy all shit
>we will shoot dem all down with our 100% accurate interceptors!
>we will just jam with 100% effective jamming
>lolol we gonna retaliate
>DF21 a shit
>debunked
>>29754156
This is completely false.
China relies heavily on imported agricultural goods as well as meats and non-perishables.
A simple google search would have told you that. And guess which country they get they import the most goods from is. That's right, the good ol' US of A!
>>29754798
Wrong. Chinese students have mandatory service.
>>29754125
Holy fuck that royal BTFO
>ICBMs don't go into space
>The president has never made nuke plans
>The military's allegiance is to the constitution
>SSBNs can fire on own their own
>Minuteman has a dead hand system
>President can fire the SecDef
Oppenheimer's face when
People here are fucking idiots
>>29756246
...which amounts to PT, marching in silly lines, and riot suppression training, and natural disaster response.
To get to even basic military training which includes combat training, you need to be in a college that churns out prospective commissars like the Nanjing Political Institute.
That said: Yes, China legally has conscription. However due to the fuckhuge population it has, it can't afford to do it. The least China can do is the Chinese Militia, which includes the Police, the Armed Police, and those cunts manning the village armories that can arm civilians in a moments notice.
>>29756246
>>29756311
Addendum: Nanjing even gives you a dagger once you completed graduation. Most Chinks go to commissar college since it has some of the best education in the country, especially for business and political careers.
But most fuck off to civilian life with a fancy diploma.
>>29754366
>Oh and what about Germany and Japan and South Korea then?
Germany, Japan, and South Korea all have absurdly insufficient demand and are all financially repressed. Germany is arguably worse than China about it, because Germany has locked in trade competitiveness versus the rest of the Eurozone though the Euro.
Short of specific countries leaving the Euro, restoring their own currency, and then devaluing it versus the Euro, there's nothing which can be done to resolve Europe's lopsided trade balance.
>Presidents don't control tariffs and trade deals. They simply negotiate new ones using the USTR.
And both Trump and Sanders want to renegotiate some of America's largest trade deals, so there's that.
>>29756214
Your entire fucking post is complete garbage.
China's main imports are crude oil, iron and plastics. The only food worth a fuck that they import is Soybeans, which comes from Argentina.
The EU is the largest source of imports to China. The sit at $211.2 billion worth of goods, followed by Japan ($194 billion) and South Korea ($162 billion). The USA just recently passed $100 million.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/03/26/where-and-what-china-imports-from-u-s/#346e663926c5
>>29756311
But that still inflates the number of troops. That was my point
>>29756370
But then again everyone has that. Emergency wartime conscription n shit.
In China's case, the immediate reserve is the Militia. Not the conscripts.
>>29755445
Oppenheimer didnt say anything about pretty much all that shit, sans 2nd strike stuff.
>>29754172
Too much regulation preventing shit like that in the west desu
Lot of innovation could be done with food.
>>29756517
As a westerner im quite ok without eating gutteroil.
>>29754172
They have early morning food carts all over NYC, senpai. They don't sell Chinese food but you can get a toasted bagel or a bacon egg and cheese or a donut, coffee, tea, etc from there.
US government stats says they are 63% white, from 2010, which includes jews, arabs, many indians, and other non-whites as "white"
Don't fucking talk about the supposed impedending chinese collapse, china will remain china, whether the commie party stays or goes.
The US will no longer be the US within our lifetimes, and ANY sort of collapse in the US will result in balkanization.
>in b4 some brainwashed milcuck claims blacks, mexicans, jews, asians, etc are all "american"
>>29756527
I want cheap
accessible
food carts
>>29756572
>muh race: the post.
>>29756591
Move to china then (or NYC).
I DONT want gutteroil. If you want litteral fecal matter, then by all means, theres the door.
>>29756597
>hurr race doesn't matter
*has only white friends*
*spent a premium on his home to live in a white neighborhood*
*ignores the plight of his race/country because he's taught marxist anti-racist values*
*believes that his brainwashed views are shared by everyone else*
>>29756630
Nigger i live in south texas, we got much more browns than pretty much everywhere. We have an actual town called fucking brownsville for fucks sake. Im a god damn minority here, being white.
People are people anon. Hell, first gen Mexican immigrants (legal) are the most american motherfuckers around.
>>29754100
>There's been a number.
Unless you can point out some cases then that number would be "zero".
>>29756663
I keked.
>>29756572
>I literally don't know anything about the United States and think everything is about muh race
>>>/pol/
>>29754036
>>29753462
Chinese hics into NASCAR when?
>>29756656
People are people, which is why every country in the world is identical, right? Ever taken a glance at how whites live in majority non-white countries? They are oppressed second class citizens.
Demographics is destiny.
These non-whites were legally not allowed to migrate before the 60's, lets not try to pretend the US has always operated according to marxist anti-racist principles.
>>29756630
>implying marx wasn't a based as fuck libertarian
>>29756735
>Ever taken a glance at how whites live in majority non-white countries? They are oppressed second class citizens.
Wewlad. Ill make sure to inform my friend in korea that he is a second class citizen, at your behest.
>>29756758
South ko loves us white skins
>>29756758
Call me when he's given korean citizenship, fucking clown
People are people, huh, do whites not deserve a home country, white communities to live in, support networks for whites, not having trillions of their tax dollars syphoned away to non-whites?
You tell me
What sort of country do you see the US as, 100 years from now, while it continues to maintain a pro-globalist & anti-white agenda
>>29756773
Well whats your phone number?
>>29756678
The US & colonists were around for hundreds of years
Yet was 100% whites + former black slaves, 90% white, all the way up to the 1960's
You tell me if that has nothing to do with race.
We'll just ignore the explicit "whites only" immigration policy?
>>29756820
Latinos were not US citizens? Wewlad.
>>29756773
>all these /pol/ memes
>globalism
>anti white
>trillions of tax dollars being siphoned
>support networks (sjw needs a safe space huh)
>needs white communities when he has never left his basement
>US is a home country
Watch out, I can see some jews
>>29756834
I just want his number so i can call him.
>>29756834
You have no clue what we have lost in the last 50 years
Affirmative action is an explicitly anti-white policy, thats not a fucking meme
Trump going that the US has lost respect of the world, bet he doesn't have the balls to admit its 90% because everyone hates blacks(obama)
>>29754114
Most of them already know what the government is saying is bull shit. They know that the government officials are super corrupt and that the pollution only clears up when they hold press conferences because they've ordered all cars off the road for a few days before. My gf's family is from China and I work with several Chinese grad students that don't want to go back because they're afraid for their health.
But it isn't likely that it will lead to any revolts or civil wars. They also know that the government has eyes everywhere and it's better to just keep your head down, do your work, and not get thrown into jail for dissent.
>>29753891
>but they're An-2 Colts
Which is why that's interesting, one of the few transport aircraft capable of actually putting KPA SF south of the border without being fucked up because they can fly so low and slow. They act somewhat like the larger gliders did in WWII in that they're more or less undetectable except they don't suck.
Wouldn't give the Norks an edge to win though, while the Nork special forces do their thing meanwhile the KPA armored corps would get fucking slaughtered by K2s and shit while the artillery would be cut down by the ROK very thick counter-battery fire.
>>29756918
>Trump going that the US has lost respect of the world, bet he doesn't have the balls to admit its 90% because everyone hates blacks(obama)
Europe likes Obama a lot more than they did Bush, Obama's mere election was enough to cool tensions that had existed ever since Iraq.
Americans just don't have the balls to admit that Obama isn't the Antichrist and that he's admired by much of the world aside from Russia.
>>29756863
Asians are white now? Because affirmative action hurts Asians more than it does whites.
>>29757117
aside from russia, south america, china, middle east, south east asia, all of europe who aren't marxist cucks, etc
>Being so delusional as to think obongo is liked
Bright future? No.
They've been voted most likely sunk by the US Navy.
>>29757117
Obama doesn't run things like an American might, but he does run things like a European might. This would be fine if Obama was Prime Minister of some Western European country, but he's the President of the United States, and so saying "he acts European" is about as damning an accusation as you'll find.
>US eventually becomes third world balkanized country
>China remains mostly Han and unified
>Asian future ensues
Deal with it cumskins
I'll just leave this here.
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/lets-play-the-fool-cmano-saga-of-the-sharknado.370923/
>>29757182
100 years from now as the last white man is hunted down & killed, he'll be going:
>buh buh buh we're all Americans!!
>>29757182
>>29757196
Poor attempt.
>>29757196
Yeah, these retards who think the US will remain a superpower when it's like 80% brown make me laugh and cry.
>>29756357
America is their biggest importer of grains, they would not starve but they would have very heavy rationing especially on meat.
But thats just the U.S.A, if they blockaded china they would simply not be able to feed themselves. China uses 70% of it's corn just to feed animals and only grows about 11% of it's corn usage locally.
>>29757154
What you're really implying is that he doesn't run things like a Republican, with the following implication being that only Republicans are "real" Americans. You fell for memes and propaganda.
>>29757255
>democrats are americans
lol
>>29757255
Obama is a Republican, though. He's practically Bush III.
>>29752706
>rival America
no. the US have been building their naval strength there up ever since WW2. the chinks simply can't catch up with that. not in such a small amount of time anyway.
>>29757222
>not looking into US demographics.
You know the black population isn't increasing more than the white is right?
"latin" American and asian American is increasing.
>>29757273
There is no difference between the parties except for what they claim.
>>29756246
Chinese mandatory services are really just sleepovers with some Marching/Rescue Drills. Not the kind of conscription that Finland or South Korea does,
Way too many people for them to do that effectively.
>>29754069
Not as long as it takes 1200 of them to hit a carrier.
>>29754069
Can someone post planefags quote about /k/ and the dingdong?
>>29757316
Donald trump could never run as a democrat
There are massive differences between the parties & their voter bases
>>29754100
Wait...
Are you actually trying to argue that the USN isn't gaining logistics experience by operating multiple CSGs in multiple regions simultaneously?
You should just stick to jingoistic shitposting. You're not very good at refuting facts.
>>29757340
Looks very "progressive"
>>29754113
Link?
>>29754366
Trusting the Chinese Central Bank. Ever.
Top fucking kekkling lels
>>29757360
>Of all the horrible works of destruction wrought by the sinning hands of Man, nothing has made the world shittier than the Dong-Feng 21 and all its bastard progeny. Most weapons do their worst work in wartime, and their best in peacetime - the Dong-Feng 21 inverts this dynamic to the detriment of all mankind. Its existence is a feeding trough for every knuckle-dragging shit-flinging simian of an armchair 'expert,' a mighty dildo-shaped obelisk for them to dance around while smacking the ground with bone clubs (because BVR is for pussies.) Its Mike Spark's wet dream made manifest on the materiel plane. It is hands-down the worst thing ever.
>Do not take this statement lightly, for I have trod /k/, the weapons board on 4chan. For all its recent pretensions, the board originated as a place for anime dweebs to argue over katanas versus kunai in Naruto. These are people who would equip the Air Force with Extra 300s, using open cockpits so the pilots could fire 1911s. There's an F-35 argument bingo chart in circulation. Unironically quoting Pierre Sprey is the fucking free space. I've listened to them wank over diesel subs, over supercavitating torpedoes, over Russian Aquaman - and nothing, but nothing has fed these retards more than the god-damned Ding Dong.
>>29757408
The men are trained separately from the females actually. Because nobody wants to turn barracks into mass orgy sites at night.
>>29754036
>the future will be when they have a lot of racecar drivers.
To continue the analogy, the problem with that concept is that what they're building today will be obsolete when they have the trained personnel to use the hardware.
Doctrine and hardware are both dynamic, constantly changing in response to experience gained and lessons learned.
China is doing it the expensive way.
>>29754162
>China's much more long history of unity and not fucking it up and being divided and suffering constant conflict bullshit.
Superb example of self contradiction.
>>29754262
>Dial USA history to the length of the Chinese one
Ok. If you're talking about nation v nation, the US history is about 5 times as long as China's. If you want to play the dynasty card, then we get to include Native American tribal history as legit US history.
>>29754174
these are same Russians the had to have France build their ships because they couldn't do it
>>29754404
Looks like a Chinese citizen knows how to save pics from FB.
>>29756357
>The USA just recently passed $100 million.
According to your link, the US just topped $100 billion, not million.
>>29756422
You're responding to a reductio ad absurdum, a logical fallacy. Just ignore it.
>>29757238
It also is an exporter of many other agricultural goods. It is self-sufficient in rice.
What you see as a vulnerability, I see as a consequence of global trade. Why grow corn in rice country? Why raise cattle on hinterlands meant for goats? Why not import what is hard to produce and sell what is easy to produce?
It's a meme that China can't feed itself.
>>29757405
I was quoting his point which is that China hasn't had any naval conflicts or meaningful naval logistic operations since WW2.
Which is wrong. And there have been a number of conflicts recently.
>>29756572
No such thing as an American race. Try not to bump your head anymore.
>>29757431
The IMF, World Bank, and $4 trillion in foreign investors trusts them.
Unless you have some proof otherwise; fuck off.
>>29757414
https://news.usni.org/2014/03/26/taiwan-defend-chinese-attack
This is already a relatively old estimate. The time has only decreased since then.
>>29756773
>home country
Most of Europe, for starters.
Oh, were you talking about the US? Naw, sorry brah. That's Native American turf, and they're coming to reclaim it. Or did you think all those brown Hispanics were foreigners? Pretty stupid, ain'tcha?
>>29757491
>To continue the analogy, the problem with that concept is that what they're building today will be obsolete when they have the trained personnel to use the hardware.
The average US naval ships is 35 years old and increasing. The average Chinese ship is 10 years old.
If anything is outdated (in doctrine and design, not capability) from a quickly changing world, it's America's ships.
>Doctrine and hardware are both dynamic, constantly changing in response to experience gained and lessons learned.
Debatable. Learning how to press a button to lock on and another to fire the cruise missiles isn't that difficult.
Working a naval ship in 1940 was a lot more difficult and complex than today when it comes to the what really matters, fighting.
>China is doing it the expensive way.
How so? Don't build any racecars and just hope you somehow get drivers? Build 10% of the racecars and wait thiety years?
China is utilizing economies of scale, labor knowledge (after 30 years of military ship construction), and the fact commodity prices have fallen 70%.
When is there a better time to build a lot of ships?
And mind you, they are still building only 10 a year compared to our 7-8 a year.
They aren't spamming extra useless ships. They are making up for lost ground. Chinese ships quantity fell 2004-2012. It only barely started rising again.
>>29758030
Oh and you think that one naval contract somehow reflects on all Russian naval weapon systems?
So just throw away all British naval systems because they have bought some US systems. Makes a lot of sense huh?
You realize the French had already made numerous proven Mistrals before the Russian contract? It was a guaranteed design that wouldn't have to be designed from scratch.
And you realize how politically driven the contract was? The Russians were courting the French big time. There's a reason canceling the contract was so difficult for the French to stomach.
>>29752706
>Does China's Navy have a bright future?
Yes. And very hot too, if they mess with the wrong people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6Q8Q1smwg
>>29758096
Which explains why it is obviously a self-taken photo from an iPhone.... Look at the picture format and the description. That's an iPhone picture.
The guy is American. Stop being afraid of imaginary boogeymen whenever an anon contradicts your views.
>>29758198
He obviously meant that.
>>29758403
>>29758242
He didn't say there was.
But acting like America wasn't a white European country for 90% of its history, is being retarded.
The post that anon made was still rather irrelevant though because our legal immigrants are not trash like the EU's.
>>29758239
Well, go ahead and list them. I would like to do some Googling.
>>29758403
No one is using nukes outside of WW3, and discussing them here is essentially shitposting because only Oppenheimer even gets close to understanding nuclear doctrine.
>>29758478
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish
There's also been a number more of these similar conflicts. Not all have become shooting but they've involved heavy logistic operations and following naval code.
Also, the civilian rescue fleets that were sent to Libya, Yemen, and Syria respectively over the last 10 years. As well as the 7 Chinese ships serving in East Africa against pirates, and the Chinese expeditionary forces that send Chinese UN peacekeepers around the world.
Remember that the anon specifically said this
>China hasn't had any naval conflicts or meaningful naval logistic operations since WW2.
So he was wrong.
>>29758450
They are still immigrants, pretending that all these immigrants magically turn into a grand "American nation" is a cuckservative delusion.
Meanwhile 90% of them vote democrat just so more of their kind will come.
>>29758272
The only hard number quoted in the link is that Taiwan can hold out "for at least a month."
You claim that number has decreased. Link?
The rest of the article that you linked is a very detailed analysis of how Taiwan would defeat an invasion attempt. There's one unsupported sentence, claiming that Taiwan would fall after a seige.
You need to do better that this. Start by citing a reputable source, one that's not self contradictory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGs_dcXt-3k
>>29758348
First of all, what's this "us" and "we" shit? You're not a US citizen.
US naval doctrine is constantly evolving. Depending on the system or process, NAVSEA and NSTM updates can come out as often as quarterly.
You may have noticed that older USN ships are phasing out as replacements come on line. FRAM and SLEP modernization programs are also a thing.
The fact that you even consider debating the fluidity of doctrine and platform design reveals the abyssmal depths of your ignorance on the subject. Your claim that 1940s ships are more complex to operate than modern ships just reinforces your overwhelming lack of knowledge.
Ships from 70 years ago were smaller, slower, and less capable than contemporary ships.
You're a certifiable moron if you think combat is the only meaningful measure of the worth of a ship. Seakeeping ability and endurance are both more critical than fighting ability. The fact that you consider naval combat to be a pushbutton affair reveals your astounding lack of knowledge of that topic, as well.
>>29758419
>That's an iPhone picture.
Yup. Which was posted to social media and then "recycled". It's not difficult to save pics from the internet.
>>29758430
Then he should say what he means
China's navy will be defacto number one in the South China Sea whether anyone likes it or not. They don't even need experience when their military size completely dwarfs all their neighbors. In this case, quantity > quality.
>>29758856
>will
If you're talking about neighbors only then there isn't even a comparison anymore.
>>29758538
>So he was wrong.
Key word being "meaningful". He was right.
>>29758892
>If you're talking about neighbors only then there isn't even a comparison anymore.
Yea I meant to say IS. There's nothing anyone can do to stop China from fucking GROWING FUCKING MORE HUGE EVERY YEAR short of starting a war with them.
>>29758801
>Your claim that 1940s ships are more complex to operate than modern ships just reinforces your overwhelming lack of knowledge.
I just opened 4chan and saw this post as I was scrolling... fuck you for making me remember that horrible fuck up of a experiment called "Optimal Manning".
Why do you care about the dog eaters?
>NOBODY likes them, only best korea
>Shit place
>Shit everything
>All their relevance is thanks to stolen shit and/or rip offs, no need to discuss it every fucking day kunts
>its the way it is, not by its habitants will, but by some mad fuckos that created a sweatshop of people that can churn out whatever they deem necessary
And the best
>it will be nuked its shit out from the face of earth the moment they start chimping out
And nothing value will be lost
