http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/14/us-army-working-on-m4a1plus-seeks-ndi-improvements-for-carbine/
The military wants to improve the M4A1 with mostly drop in upgrades, including an improved trigger system that must be a single stage trigger with no creep and 4-5lbs pull weight, a low profile gas block, a free float handguard of 12 inches with a continously rail along the top, back up irons and an improved flash suppressor and charging handle.
How would you upgrade the M4A1 and create the M4A1+ (yes that's actually what they're calling it) /k/?
Standard M4s are pretty good as is. The only thing I could say to change for the M4s would be to chamber them in 300BLK. Since the 556 starts to have trouble out of a DI platform under 16in a 300BLK would be ideal for a shorter barrel and better penetration through light cover. Plus cheaper ammo for me!
>>29728222
>mfw the A style Gas block will die in your lifetime.
There is no god
>>29728222
SR-15 upper, KAC 2 stage trigger, and an ambi safety selector.
Better than anything currently on the market sans the SR-16.
Replace it with the c8 and rename it M4A1+
Retrofitting with budget and logistics in mind
>Extended CH latch
>Geissele SSF FCG
>SOPMOD Stock & MOE+ Grips
>DD Lite Rail III w/ A2 FSP (9.5"?)
>Tritium Apertures & Troy Rear BUIS
Optional;
>Surefire M952V's
>Grippod.mil QD-latch version
>Elcan Specter ATOS 3x Optics
>>29728222
Why would you change something thats not not broken?
>>29728269
It sucks m8 get over it
>>29728266
>Standard M4s are pretty good as is.
Complete piles of garbage.
>>29728306
>why the US military used M1 Garands all the way until early Vietnam explained in one sentence
>>29728266
300 blk 9" barrels would be pretty badass.
And cheaper ammo is a win. Let's make this happen.
>>29728306
They are looking to spend money where they don't need it. It probably wont go through anyway. Remember the hype a few years ago about military trials for a piston AR? It'll just fall through
>>29728348
Weren't they testing HL416s?
Some special forces use SCARs though.
If we had to start over and logistics didn't matter I say lets use FN SCAR-L's with Elcans SpecterOS, 14.5" Barrel, and special chambering in 6.8 Rem SPC.
With surefire suppressor adapters as a standard
Of course specially cerakoted in Multicam green
>>29728266
>wanting blk this bad
you're going to have to convince nato first
>>29728360
HK416s I mean
>>29728341
The Garand/m14 is a horrible design, completely open on top,exposed bolt, lubed with grease.
I wonder how many died in ww2 due to those shit heaps jamming up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6J5m4_Is_s&spfreload=10
>>29728346
I only see all out wins for the 300blk. I'm suprised it hasnt been adopted in more circles of the military. Works perfectly with the major downfalls of the 556
>>29728348
The LWRC, Adcor, and HK designs did extremely impressively.
If we ever adapt a new carbine systema we will use HK because they have the most buying power and lobbyists right now.
What we need to do is adopt a better 5.56 platform and start phasing in more .308's like the KAC SR25 w/ 16.1" Barrels.
Alot of special forces are moving into shorter barreled .308's
Also shotguns are becoming bigger now
>>29728360
Yeah SCARs, 416s, the LWRC M6, and a few others. They canned it for costs. Imagine that
>>29728391
>Also shotguns are becoming bigger now
Oh yeah? Not just for primarily breaching? That's interesting news.
>>29728378
Heres the deal with the Garand.
It is not a bad design for actual battlefield conditions.
The design is open partially like the AK and thus there is issues if debris manages to get into the FCG and receiver. But in regular battlefield conditions where fine dust and limited amounts of dirt/soil (not clumps of soaked mud like in these tests) is the enemy over time.
The garand does well because it rotates and "flicks" the debris off the BCG. It is not as bad as everyone says.
Just like the AK, the Garand system has the same faults. Its open, but just like the AK it is an extremely robust design which can be quickly unfucked unlike an AR, and works well in actual conditions.
>>29728391
No doubt piston ARs are a competitor. For me i think the bullpup will win over the market. 556 would be able to get some traction with that design and they wouldn't have to change calibres.
>>29728391
>Also shotguns are becoming bigger now
How so? Outside of breaching, they are the least relevant they have ever been.
>INB4 AA12
>>29728411
I'm suprised they use full lenght M2s. I would think an sbs as a sidearm would do the same job with more versatility due to weight constraints
>>29728411
Yup its a neat turn of events. British SF have bought up a bunch of fostech's (a vepr/ak based 12ga w/ duscover and NiB coatings) believe it or not and are using them in middle east.
Militaries are finally coming to realization that automatic shotguns have a place in urban and CQC. not just breaching like it has been done for the last few decades.
>>29728378
>But muh shitty CMP
>But "patton said"
> But muh 30 aught Fudd
>>29728465
>fostech's
Now THIS is a space gun.
>>29728465
I don't see them being used outside of SF mission specific ops. Widespread use i think will be relegated to breaching. To heavy and not versatile enough for primary use
>>29728430
>The garand does well because it rotates and "flicks" the debris off the BCG.
It doesn't do that at all, it captures and holding in all the debris since it's a closed bottom, Once the dirt got in it wad DOA, couldn't even get it to hand cycle and feed and fire at all.
>>29728484
>> But muh 30 aught Fudd
Whats funny is it can't even fire actual full spec 30-06, the action and design is so shitty, it requires reduced power ammunition (m2 ball) or it will break the piece of shit.
I see something like the LWRC IC or Adcor BEAR becoming the next "M4"
I don't think we are quite at the point of being willing to *widely* adopt a rifle made outside the united states. Like the HK416.
I think the next rifle will be an american made piston-iteration of the M4 carbine.
We should have done like the Brit's and updated our rifles. They used HK or someone to modify their SA80's into actually functional rifles. We should have done the same exact thing.
I know there is an attachment to DI but piston has proven itself, atleast the 416 has.
>>29728539
Thats because it was made/used in the 30's and 40's friend.
Don't complain if in the future our M16's cant fire the new super-powered space-5.56
>>29728378
>I wonder how many died in ww2 due to those shit heaps jamming up.
Galant keeps his rifle clean to so it'll funtion when he needs it most. Goofus stores mud pies in his rifle and gets killed by malnourished banzai bayonet charges and Hitler youth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_WDBqTqRpU
>>29728500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrsvUanLfU
MY FUCKING DICK
>>29728266
>The only thing I could say to change for the M4s would be to chamber them in 300BLK.
holy fuck, i really can't tell if there's like 4 people on /k/ constantly shilling 300 memeout, or you're completely serious
300 black out is LITERALLY L I T E R A L L Y an underpowered 9x39
>>29728579
yup
its only a few people shilling
.300 is like throwing a rock and engagement distances vary too much for it to be widely adopted
bout time
>>29728601
Exactly. 9x39 is a pretty based cartridge, and even that isn't really versatile enough to really be used for anything other than special applications, as in the VSS and the Vintorez etc.
>>29728601
>like throwing a rock at an engagement
>17% more energy delivered at 300yds to a 7.62x39
Kek
>>29728789
I'm morbidly curious about .300BLK's performance out of a 20" barrel. Does anyone even make a 20" upper for that round?
>>29728852
Don't need a new upper. Only the barrel changes w/muzzle break. I'm not sure about the ballistics out of a 20", but it is mainly designed for under 16". I think 20" is just extra because the round already gets full expansion before 16"
>How would you upgrade the M4A1 and create the M4A1+
I'd throw in an improved trigger system, single stage trigger with no creep and 4-5lbs pull weight, a low profile gas block, a free float handguard of 12 inches with a continously rail along the top, back up irons and an improved flash suppressor and charging handle.
>>29728222
they're going to hire wizards to enchant it and create the M4A +1
>>29728789
>>17% more energy delivered at 300yds to a 7.62x39
source?
>>29728406
USMC Has adopted the m27 which is just a 416 with a heavy barrel, and we love them.
>>29729369
>and we love them
Nigga speak for yourself lo fucking l
>>29729306
Here you go
>Inb4 "wikipedia isnt a reliable source"
>>29729416
It still drops like a rock.
Its inappropriate for modern engagement distances.
>>29729369
The M27 personally lacks the capacity to effictivley fill a SAW role in any situation
>Produce new ones to replace the old
>make them all flat-top
>trash all the old shitty mags and get new ones
I can't think of much else to be honest
>>29728222
Make the stock fold-able and remain functional.
>>29728306
people like you are the whole reason POG generals have such a boner for outdated hardware and are so adverse to change
>>29729461
>make them all flat-top
??? ??? ???
>trash all the old shitty mags
New magazines have anti tilt followers and are rugged steel/aluminum/polymer construction
>>29728360
because both are fucking expensive even if purchased in bulk
>>29729482
No not really. You cannot compare individual pricing with the pricing the Army or Marines would get its a totally different animal.
>>29729430
It isn't really meant to fill the role of the saw. It's purpose is to provide suppression through short bursts out to 300m and accurate single shots to 800m. Most importantly it it allows fire teams in manuvre elements to be much more mobile. While real machine guns the 240s provide a solid base of fire.
That being said we still have 249s we just don't give them to every fireteam, we pick and choose when and where we use them.
>>29729461
>old
Wat
The military is transforming all M4s with broken selector switches into M4A1s
>>29729160
Severely underrated
>>29729475
Why is everyone dropping the A2? Its solid and i would think that with extreme hard use BUIS wouldn't hold up as well
>>29729512
because optics are amazing
>>29729512
We use optics now
optics are a force multiplier
>>29729505
From what I heard they are equipping cav teams and vehicle based units with them. One of my buddies who served with the 249 said they were replacing them. So i guess I'm not entirely sure what their purpose is. I'm just going off what I've heard
>>29729537
My unit has all m27s but still has 249s in the armory which are used at command discretion
>>29729528
True. They can be used in conjunction with the A2. Having the A2 if the optic fails is a necessity. I'm not sure how BUIS on a flat top would hold up. Optics do fail
>>29729512
Only POGs get the A2 these days. And POGs who might shoot get A4s so they can use an optic. Its heavy bulky and it's a loooooong. 20" barrel man.
>>29729160
Topkek
>>29729416
Gonna change the goalposts here a bit, that literally doesn't mean anything. Any intermediate rifle cartridge at 300 meters is going to perform the exact same, only .300 memeout drops like a fucking rock, as the previous poster said.
The proper labeling is m4a2 you annoying shit
>>29729617
Not taking into account its impressive capabilities and compatability for cqb. Plus shooting 556 and 762 at 300 isnt ideal either
>>29728374
America does what it wants, makes NATO follow suit.
>>29729579
I don't really see a disadvantage to the A2 on a rifle really. Maybe you could say they disrupt sight picture but they are reliable and they work. If I'm not mistaken the military is all about that
>>29729416
>Literally nothing amazing beyond the world of .30-30 and 7.62x39.
>BLKfags wanting the US Army to get BLK'd this hard.
>>29728306
it's like you actually don't know that the military is a giant fucking tax money pit for stupid programs that never get adopted anyway.
>>29729564
The Marine corps finds that the MRBF of the ACOG sight is actually greater than the MRBF of the A2 carry handle iron sights.
The ACOG is stronger than irons.
>>29729650
>Not taking into account its impressive capabilities and compatability for cqb.
impressive how shitposter. Also, CQB is essentially irrelevant in most modern combat zones.
>>29728222
>a free float handguard
About fucking time
>>29729720
>Also, CQB is essentially irrelevant in most modern combat zones.
Not to mention 5.56, 7.62x39, and 5.45 are all perfectly suitable for cqb with literally no drawbacks.
>>29728269
Carry handle has already died in my lifetime
A style gas fsp will go next
There will always be retro builds...
>>29728222
If Daniel Defense made a version of their RIS II rail with shaved sides and pic rails at the front only, like a KAC URX3, I think it would be close to ideal for a military carbine.
>14.5" chrome lined barrel
>Geissele trigger
>Surefire/BE Meyers flash hider
>1-4x variable scope
IMO a real big change would be actual good ammo for everyone, not just SOF guys, and actually good army-wide zeroing and marksmanship doctrine, instead of the hodgepodge that they have now.
>>29729720
With the supersonic rounds they get 500ftlb of force. Twice that of a 9x19. Plus it delivers more force than the 556 with almost no change in recoil impulse. I lnow its fun to get on the 300 hate train but you're probably the same one advocating a .308 standard again because of power
>>29729716
I have no doubt that the ACOG is good. I'm talking about back up sights for if the ACOG fails. Apples and oranges
>>29729786
>With the supersonic rounds they get 500ftlb of force. Twice that of a 9x19. Plus it delivers more force than the 556 with almost no change in recoil impulse.
so why should .300 memeout be adopted when you can just shoot twice with a 5.56
>>29729806
Twice!? Hajis took almost half a mag in Fallujah from conversations with guys who served
can the military just dump the AR platform already?
they've been polishing that turd for almost 60 years now
>>29728222
Trigger:
Geissele SSF
Handguard:
DD Lite III
BUIS:
Magpul MBUS PRO LR
Flash suppressor:
EFAB or KAC MAMS
Charging Handle:
BCM Gunfighter
Any lo-pro gas block will do. All of this together would be a solid improvement on the M4A1.
Optional COTS add-ons:
Optic:
Vortex Razor HD II 1-6x24mm w/ Geissele Super Precision Mount
Elcan SpecterDR 1/4x
>>29728540
There is very little a piston AR does better than DI. Piston ARs are heavier and more complex as well. I've shot a 416, it's nothing special. If you are doing a ton of suppressed full auto, a 416 is ideal, however for this is not the case for 99.9% of the military.
>>29729799
ACOGs fail less than A2 sights you faggot.
>>29729842
my point is for the faggots saying .300 is marginally better, like .45fags to 9mmfags.
also M855 sucks cock. M193 was maiming gooks in nam just fine until those faggot eurofags said it was too inhumane and intentionally nerfed 5.56
>>29729842
>>29729842
Even guys who served miss. No matter what caliber you're shooting bad guys with, peripheral hits don't do much.
>>29729786
Force isn't an accurate measurement of terminal ballistic performance in the slightest.
The real problem with .300 blk in a military context is that out of even a 14.5" gun, the amount of drop you get is pretty unreal at distance. Yes, you can hold over but your MPBR is short and Big Army will never go in for that. A ton of solders suck at range estimation. With a 200m zero and a 5.56 gun you can still hit easily at 300 by holding on the neck, with the AMU recommended 255m zero, you can hold center chest. Heck, with 255m zero you can hit at 400m by holding on the target's scalp. At those ranges with 300 blackout you are holding 3 feet over. If you call the range wrong and it's 350m and not 300m you will hit very low or even not at all, because that 50m added 20" of drop.
Not to mention the dangers of adding a cartridge that can be chambered in a 5.56 gun but will cause a kaboom if fired that way. Imagine how many blown up rifles we'll see.
>>29729929
Since they have to use ball it really limits what you can do.
>but you might injure the hajis too bad
>>29728222
En
Bloc
Clip
>>29729369
Worked on a rifle range out on Pendleton when I was in, the brass came down to the field when we were qualing a unit that had the IARs, they implied that it was a way to get something new into the hands of infantry better than busted A4s and hand me down m4s, without having to go through a huge mess of replacing the contracts for m16s. They're outstanding rifles, not outstanding squad automatic weapons.
>>29729505
>It's purpose is to provide suppression through short bursts out to 300m and accurate single shots to 800m
you can already do this with an M4
>>29728222
they could upgrade to 6x45. it would work better out of the shorter barrels and still have roughly the same weight and ballistics as 5,56.
>>29729579
Stop perpetuating the 'heavy, bulky, long' meme, you insufferable faggot.
Not much need for anything but incremental improvements with LSAT on the horizon--that's the place to make serious changes, like caliber and gas design.
>>29729472
Are you seriously saying the A block is obsolete?j
Because thats what it sounds like what you're saying.
How about I shove my A block up your urinary track and pull the trigger.
You would like that, wouldn't you limp wristed faggot?
>>29728222
As a former grunt, I very much liked my M4 and had really no major complaints. As far as improvements go...
>a handguard lighter than the kac quad rail in either keymod or mlok
>more corrosion resistant finish
>a good metal flip up non hooded front sight
>a bcg with the slick and carbon wicking properties of nickel boron but matte not shiny
>ambi selector
>ambi charging handle with a slightly larger but not too large actuation lever so as not to get snagged on kit
But honestly these are all luxuries and subjective. Not everyone would want or like most of those. It's really a pretty darn good rifle. Maybe the army could consider switching to a heavy for caliber loading? I remember reading a book about a sniper section from a PAARNG unit that had fantastic luck at close range and distance using 77gr shit from both 14.5 and 20 inch barrels.
>>29730865
Oh, definitely replace 3 round burst with full auto. Burst is fucking pointless. Full auto has its uses.
>>29730865
The A sight is rock solid.
Sure we can mod our guns to lighten them up, but that A sight won't lose it's zero never going to lose its aim.
I really don't see the purpose of removing it.
>>29730942
I agree and have no issues with it. But there are some great flip ups and handguards out there too. I'm really indifferent....the M4 as it is now is just a rock solid rifle all around.
>>29728266
>The only thing I could say to change for the M4s would be to chamber them in 300BLK
For the love of all things good why?! The military wants a round that is effective out to 600 meters, not less than the one they currently have.The only reason to adopt .300 blackout is for suppressed and SBR use. As in sub 10 inches as it burns all the powder in 8.
>>29728539
That's a 40 dollar fix and you can get it delivered straight to your door, don't even have to leave the house.
>>29728222
>the US will never re-adopt the M16 ever again
>you will never get a sweet-ass M16A5
M4 a shit! A SHIT!
>>29728222
I would just get the hk416
and "experiment" with the 417 ie maybe gradually move to it. BASED ON FIELD REPORTS.
Ie do some force on force miles shit with all 417 and 240 mmg vs the normal 556 Saw and 240 mix and match.
But really i would Make HK licence the design and the ability to contract out the designe to the US gov. Like with garand style procurement.
And Start up atleast 2 government owned arsenals again.
mfw in 30 years CMP 416
>>29731018
I carried an old M16 when I was in the AF.
While all the SF's carried M4's
>mfw I was the special snowflake for once.
>>29728360
>Weren't they testing HL416s?
A heavy barrel 416 was ADOPTED by the marines as the IAR.
and replacing/ supplementing the SAW
I thought it was a backdoor way to go to all 416s later. but that seems to not be happening yet.
>>29729579
>unironically complaining that an *M16* is TOO FUCKING LONG AND HEAVY
kys my man or quit being such a fucking DYEL skelly manlet and quit choking on your bf's cock
the M14 was too heavy, the M16 IS NOT.
>>29728406
>SCARs, 416s, the LWRC M6, and a few others. They canned it for costs. Imagine that
heavy barrel 416 is an adopted arm for USMC grunts. as the IAR
>>29731029
>I would just get the hk416
Why? It's heavier and proprietary and the reliability change isn't enough to justify buying an entirely new armory rather than upgrading the current one in pieces.
>>29729416
Umm, those velocities are double the speed of sound. Why use .300 BLK when you aren't even going subsonic?
>>29731078
It's only useful for SBRs as well as suppressors. Burns all the powder in an 8 inch barrel iirc.
>>29730996
>>29731089
>>29731078
You are all ignorant of the capabilities of the 300 blackout cartridge
>>29728222
I'd just rather give them a new production AR-18 with some new and improved bits, and say take it or leave it and stop wasting my time and tax dollars.
>>29728484
but Garand designed it in .276 peterson. If you gonna blame fuddy aught six it is McArthur.
>>29728539
standard service rifle fires standard service ammunition...big suprise
