How fucked would Europe have been had Genghis Khan didn't so suddenly belly up?
The basic problem is this.
What will the Mongols steal?
High Middle Ages Europe is still poor as fuck, and most of it is littered with castles.
There's no metal currency in most places, mediocre grazing land, and a 5000 mile line of communication is long even by Mongol standards.
That said, historians still debate this.
>>29542446
You mean Ogadai?
Probably not a tremendous amount, as the Mongols move into more and more hostile terrain for them and more and more get bogged down in siege after siege that require weeks or months to succeed at even if they are ultimately victorious. It would be deeply unpleasant, but the Mongols likely wouldn't have been able to expand too much further.
>>29542626
>Bogged down with sieges.
You do know they took a metric fuck ton of Chinese cities at the same time right? Cities that made European castles seem like earthen bulwarks at best.
>>29542446
They would be fucked in Germanic forests just like Rome was.
Hell it would probably be a lot worse, can't cantibrian circle your way in a dense forested area.
>>29542707
What's to stop them from just burning the forests down?
>>29542730
They wouldn't have to for the most part. They were great at getting their enemies to fight one another, along with conscripting conquered people's into their military.
>>29542707
Mongols weren't just horse archers.
Daily reminder.
The mongols weren't all a bunch of horse archers burning their way across asia. They had heavier cavalry, infantry, and could into sieges. What made then successful is the fact that they were nomadic and cery skilled at warfare.
That being said i can imagine a mongol army pushing into central europe would just think "fuck this shit, its wet and forested with a lack of open plains. Leave these woodniggers, lets go terrorise more brown people and slavs."
>>29542730
Environment? Climate? It would be literally decades if not centuries work all the while being harassed by the same shits who outlived the Roman Empire.
>>29542851
It was certainly their most successful method, the Chinese were totally slaughtered despite their numbers - civil war or not. That said the Mongols best trait was their adaptability, I just don't see it carrying them through the entire Germanic region when it is clear there is no much they would want and plenty of casualties they would incur.
>>29542446
It was bound to happen. Your archetypical Steppe Raider was a raging alcoholic.
And when more bling means more booze...
>>29542952
Tfw i will never get snot arsed drunk each night, raid all day with raider bros, gang rape entire villages and use the loot to get more booze.
Why even live?
>>29542446
Since Mongols are like Huns on steroids I'd have to say pretty fucked.
And then Europe would be a lot more squintier and slavic european-asiatic looking
>>29543055
This is how ISIS happens
>>29543331
And this is how they ended.
>ISIS forgetting the I
>>29543821
This was on /his/ and was shot down for its meme historical information and cringeworthy writing.
>>29542446
not much cause horse faggots cannot into woods, mountains and castles
>>29542923
How would those reasons deter, much less stop them?
You realize they conquered Russia right? A place infinitely worse than Germany in every single way, in every single category you have proposed as a reason they wouldn't conquer it.
>climate, environment
They conquered Russia, in the winter. Next question. Also their plans literally did involve deforestation in many places, literally razing Germany in order to create pastures is totally something the Mongols would do.
>It would be literally decades if not centuries work all the while being harassed by the same shits who outlived the Roman Empire.
You know who made those little shits so terrified they fled for their lives and fought so desperately that they managed to conquer and topple the Empire? The goddamn Huns. That's why the Vandals, Goths, and so many more invaded Rome. And the Mongols make the Huns look like pathetic bitches.
>I just don't see it carrying them through the entire Germanic region
Why not? The Germans of the 1200s were not pelt wearing Odin worshipping barbarians, the Mongols don't have to fight in the forest because the Germans don't live in the forest. They burn the cities and farms until they get the message and just surrender voluntarily.
>when it is clear there is no much they would want
Back to Russia, they conquered Russia. A place so poor they couldn't afford chairs, thus squatting is permanently embedded in their goddamn DNA. And the Mongols conquered it, because they cared more for domination than wealth.
>and plenty of casualties they would incur.
They took on greater odds before and won resoundingly. There's no reason people who fearlessly faced down empires of millions while always stupidly outnumbered would be worrying about conquering Europe after they had already conquered half the goddamn planet and could call conscripts from it if needed.
>>29543875
>not much cause horse faggots cannot into woods
Neither could medieval European armies.
>mountains
Nigger they conquered Persia and the Caucasus, which is damn near 100% mountains
>castles
Give them a week to adopt local siege weaponry
>>29542675
You do know where the steppes end, right?
China is pretty close to mongolia, europe isnt. They would probably not be able to occupy it either, due to the existing tribalism. China and the middle east is easier, as there is an existing central governing system present and a dependence on it. Europe at this time, not so much.
>>29542768
The romans were even better at it, you know...
>>29542626
>more get bogged down in siege after siege
European castles (outside of Constantinople) were not that advanced until over 50 years after the first Mongolian invasion into the continent.
People have to understand that Europe was pretty silly poor during this time and the bulwarks and defenses that could have fought back the Mongols just weren't in place yet. And the subsequent invasions of the Mongols lacked the Chinese artillerymen that brought down even larger walled cities in the warring areas of China and Central/Middle Eastern Asia, which actually HAD the money to build huge walled cities due to trade.
>>29542707
Germanic forests were being deforested at a very heavy pace in the century BEFORE Mongolian invasion, seeing it as not only economics, but a religious path to claiming the land from the darkness. Most of Germany would have been farmland during the Mongolian century.
Europe during the Roman era was different from Europe post-1000 AD.
Flora and fauna did not remain the same from when the Romans got slaughtered in Teutoburg to the time after the end of the Viking raids in Europe.
And since most of the central lands of Europe (where Germany, Northern Italy, and France are) are predominantly hilly or flatlands, that doesn't really bode well for anyone who has to fight Mongolian hordesmen. I mean, people like to claim "m-muh mountains" but even if you look at a terrain map now, most of the mountains aren't in the areas where the agricultural/commercial centers of the time in Europe were during Pax Mongolia.
>>29543951
>due to the existing tribalism
When do you think the Mongols conquered shit? They weren't anybody when Europe was still tribal. Jesus Christ if you're gonna talk about something at least know what you are saying.
Also fuck, they conquered all the steppes. All the tribal steppes. Full of people who far outnumbered them. They also easily wiped out the Russians (and their nomadic allies, who came to them warn them of the threat the Mongols posed) who were disorganized and lacked central governments, with a mere scouting force. Not even a proper invasion, they just showed up, surveyed the land, and killed 500,000 people and subjugated the numerous disorganized Slavic princedoms.
Meanwhile Europe looked like pic related when the Mongols were invading. Notice the massive organized kingdoms sprawled all over the place.
>>29544000
Ive also listened to dan carlin, sperglord, dont be a shithead about it. Its one thing conquering a land, another thing administering it. That map is complete shit, reality looks something like this, although it is also great simplification. Political maps might make it simple to understand, but gives very limited information. Each area holds several different peoples with their own leaders, religions etc with virtually no connection to the "king" apart from perhaps paying taxes or raising soldiers. Eastern europe was much more centrally controlled and thus easier to sway.
The steppes end in Ukraine, after that its heavy forests or bogs until you hit mediterreanian europe. And no, Germany wasnt deforested.
>>29543939
you sound like someone that never has seen a castle irl.
hell you sound like someone that never has seen a real forrest, steppe dweller.
>>29544052
>map of europe, 1450
200 years off m8
I'm not being a shithead, you're being a dumbass. By the time the Mongols were knocking at Europe's door there was no tribalism. It had died in Europe's remotest corners hundreds of years prior (except for those Baltic shits and some Finns wandering around)
>Each area holds several different peoples with their own leaders, religions etc with virtually no connection to the "king" apart from perhaps paying taxes or raising soldiers
And so what? The mongols had dealt with feudal people in other places just fine. They don't fight any harder because they're less effectively organized
>also, different religions
>1200s
lolno, literally everyone was Catholic.
You think in modern terms. Where the only winnable war is one where you take down a modern, centrally organized nation and everyone gives up because they lost. Those nations didn't exist for the mongols. They were the closest thing to it, and they were nowhere near.
Insurgency? Revolution? Resistance? We can't counter these in the middle east, how could the mongols possibly overcome unorganized pissant resistance?
Oh right, by doing the Mongol thing that modern nations aren't allowed to do.
They kill everyone. They burn the land. They raze the forests. They slaughter every man, enslave every woman and child. They do not need the farms. They do not need the forests. They do not need the cities nor the people within them. What they could use is a new pasture for some oxen though.
And when the next town over hears the news (as if they couldn't smell the burning flesh on the wind and see the inferno), they just surrender meekly and pay the mongols for their lives.
>Eastern europe was much more centrally controlled and thus easier to sway.
That's hilarious.
>The steppes end in Ukraine, after that its heavy forests or bogs until you hit mediterreanian europe
And yet the Mongols had no problems subjugating Novgorod, king of swamps, bogs, and heavy forests.
>>29544076
>you sound like someone that never has seen a castle irl.
Been to Europe plenty.
>hell you sound like someone that never has seen a real forrest
I live in Washington. Check out a map of the forest coverage of Washington sometime.
Know what the funny thing is about castles? You can't do shit when you're holed up in one. So the Mongols show up, rape you in the field, and you retreat to your castle. Now what?
They've burnt down literally everything, you're gonna starve even if you break out. Now what?
Your people have already surrendered, you're just fighting for your life at this point. Now what?
You starve.
That's assuming the people with Chinese and Persian siege engineers and thousands of new conscripts who joined up in exchange for their lives can't figure out how to build a ladder. If they figure out how to strap some sticks to other sticks, you're gonna get beheaded. Or maybe you're of royal blood so they have to invent a fancy way to kill you that doesn't make you bleed.
>forest
again, European armies didn't fight in them either. You can go run and hide in them, but then the mongols burn you alive because really turning Europe into more steppe is in their best interest.
>>29544052
>after that its heavy forests or bogs until you hit mediterreanian europe. And no, Germany wasnt deforested.
Do you understand how swampy and shitty Russia was back then?
And yes, Germany was deforested by then. The increasing commerce and need to reclaim the pagan forests of Europe for Christianity, as well as farmland economies and expanding cities had really fucked up Europe's forests.
It started at 1100 AD and the Mongols first invaded in 1241 AD.
Europeans literally had 141 years of deforestation before the Mongols showed up. Cities, fuel, farms. They had to come from somewhere. And since the barbarian raids effectively ended in 1000 AD, Europe was starting to come out of its backwater status, and that's why it started to fuck up its forest 100 years after the end of the vikings era.
>>29542446
The Mongols began to have serious problems at the fringes of their empire not long after the two main battles in eastern Europe (Legnica and Mohi in 1241).
By 1260, they got smashed in the Levant at Ain Jalut, in large part because their coalition was splintering and turning against itself.
By 1293, they even lost a large battle in Java (modern-day Indonesia), and had to go scampering back up the Malay peninsula, and were afterwards knocked around by the Thais and Viets.
So overall, it wasn't a great trend for them, Europe or not.
>>29544121
Yes, the mongols can do the same thing as the khazars, magyars or huns did before them, perform raids with the ukrainian steppes as a base, but they couldnt support their horses so thats as far as they could go.
But whatever, be a mongol fanboy all you want, im sure you can find sone fringe historians that will agree with you too.
>>29544145
>but they couldnt support their horses so thats as far as they could go.
>couldn't support their horses
>in Europe
I'm just picturing your idea of a Mongolian strategic meeting.
nah guys, we can't conquer Europe. It's just not possible. There's a field over there and there's farms with grain suitable for horses everywhere. But there's a forest ten miles away so we just can't do it. Just can't. Horses will starve, can't support them.
How do you think the Mongols managed to conquer the middle east anyway?
>>29544143
The issue with this is because their forces have already stopped supporting each other at this point and were fighting regionally. It's why some parts of their empire lasted for much longer. And as with all warrior societies, once you get too acclimated to being a pampered dude, you turn into Swedes.
>>29544145
The Mongols had a heck of a logistics chain and command going for them. They also commanded large armies of ground troops, auxiliaries and siege engineers (initially). They weren't simply horsemen.
The reasons for their loss in subsequent invasions were that the European forces were more prepared and the Mongols had less specialists in each end every attempt afterward. They didn't attempt to hold land like they did in the Middle East, China, and Central Asia.
And it made sense. Europe at the time was a shitty backwater that only was useful for slaves and whatever gold and food was available at every raiding invasion they got there for.
>>29544167
Yes, europe was completely agrarian and the middle east is 100% desert. Kek
>>29544181
Neither is true and neither needs to be for my argument.
There was plenty of farmland. Europe was supported by fucking farming, not squatting in the woods.
Meanwhile the Middle East still had a much worse climate for pretty damn near everything.
>>29544076
The Song Chinese walled cities were in a whole different league from castles in 1200's Europe, and so was ctesiphon.
The Mongols overran them with minimal problems.
>>29544327
>Song Chinese walled cities
At least the 13th century Euros has circular towers.
>in a whole different league
What, they covered more area with long low walls?
>>29544327
>Minimal problems
Yeah, no. They won, and would have crushed any known European fortifications, but they didn't exactly have an easy time of it in China.
>>29544327
You're right, I'm just retarded.
