What determined submachinegun deployment in WWII? Seems to me like in various armies it was done differently, like you had entire squads with SMGs (USSR, Germans) in some armies while in others only one or two of the dudes have SMGs (US)
>>29386821
>What determined submachinegun deployment in WWII?
Different doctrines.
You literally answered your question in your own post.
>>29386829
Yeah but how exactly? What doctrines in which whole squads in certain armies had SMGs for example.
>>29386837
You're asking why, so use the word why. Anyway, the SMG idea came from WWI. Someone can explain that.
WWII wise, here's an country that didn't use SMGS all that much, Japan. Now why didn't they issue them in large numbers? And I'll let someone else take over.
>>29386857
This post is completely useless, good work.
>>29386857
Its amazing how you wrote so much yet managed to say so very little.
>>29386837
Different ideas about the standard range of skirmishes
Different ideas about how a position should be taken
Different ideas about how much ammunition a regular grunt should be allowed to have
Different ideas about how how powerful an infantryman's rounds should be.
>>29386821
Germens and Ivan deployed SMGs to assault squads in urban environments.
In the end it was highly contextual for these guys. Like "hey, we're gonna fight CQB in this area, take these and arm up."
The US however was big into squads having multiple weapon types centered around the BARman providing a base of fire.
>>29386821
Environment. Doctrine. Tactics.
In which rapidly changed in WW2. When fighting became less open field skirmishes to house to house battlefields, it all ended with assault armored mechanized infantry whose primary tasks were to clear bombarded trenches when they broke cover from the tanks. Of course this was not really a U.S. problem because M1's, but the British had trouble in urban related combat because how they approached it was entirely different.
>>29386946
>a single defender
My fat arse
>>29386979
Look carefully to find the sniper in the roof. Probably gonna drop a stick bomb down the stairs any second now and roast some Ami's.
>>29386979
It's a german position getting reduced. See the dead rifleman on the top of the stairway.
>>29387021
Actually there's one behind the turned over chair at the top of the stairs too.
Americans gonna get BTFO
>>29387080
Look closer, there's another in the same position still active
>>29386979
4 krauts 2 dead. Soon to be a combat ineffective US squad via potato masher.
>>29387081
No, that's the dead guy's rifle.
>>29387092
>No, that's the dead guy's rifle.
It looks like a helmet poking out a bit next to the rifle.
How the fuck did he fall like that?
>>29387100
>It looks like a helmet poking out a bit next to the rifle.
What? You mean the end of the handrail? There's no helmet there.
>How the fuck did he fall like that?
Left handed shooter who fell to his right or off the ladder.
>>29386946
How did the US squad get the guy on top of the stairs without casualties? He and anyone in the attic have a full view and line of fire on the stairs.
>>29387126
I think the better question is where the fuck did the big pile of rubble that the German is buried under in the infiltration room come from.
There's a tiny hole in the wall and a tiny hole in the first ceiling, I don't even.
>>29386946
They US were actually less dependent on their LMG's than most militaries (thankfully, the BAR was a piece of shit compared to its contemporaries) because the garand was capable of such rapid fire.
As for OP, the profusion of SMG's in russian hands was a question of logistics as well as tactics; mosins were a bit of a process to make, and terrible rifles compared to the competition. Arming squads with SMG's which could be made in a garage was good sense. As for the Germans. they were simply ahead of their time in military tactics in many ways, and realised the usefulness of light automatic weapons before many others. It helps that the MP40 was both cheap to make and a fine, fine example of an SMG.
>>29387140
The BAR wasn't an LMG. It was....a fucking Automatic Rifle.
Which back in the day for USA means "rifle with automatic fire capability plus more ammo than the usual bolt action/semi auto rifle" and was intended as a support weapon that kept other people's heads down as riflemen worked bolts/reloaded/maneuvered.
The US Army never had an LMG until the M60 was introduced
>>29387135
Satchel charge, mate. It's clear the Germans were prepared for a breach through the door, so the Amis came through the wall instead. Nothing hard to understand.
>>29387169
>missing the point
Look at the amount of debris and tell me it adds up
>>29387182
>Look at the amount of debris and tell me it adds up
It does? Look closer, the debris isn't nearly as high as it seems to be. The perspecctive is just a bit fucked up.
>>29386857
>>29386857
Lol wut? You should try politics. You said nothing, and answered no questions.
>>29386829
>I don't know shit but I'll throw out some two-bit generalism so I look smart, I think
>muh doctrine
It depended far more on did we have fucking SMGs? than on doctrine. No army had a doctrine that favored not shooting and killing people.
>>29387140
>Germans were ahead of the times in military tactics
>So they used SMGs which everyone also used
>except they used less of it
>>29387599
It'd be fucking impossible to answer this question without a 200 page book and you know it you scumsucking turd muncher.
>would an SMG be useful in this situation?
>yes
>here you go
>>29387601
>>muh doctrine
>It depended far more on did we have fucking SMGs?
incorrect, iirc, doctrine was important, at least when logistics were sufficient.
wehrmacht NCOs were typically issued MP40s, and later STG-43s, in a standard grenadier squad, while everyone else carried Kar98 and backed up the MG-34/42. not sure about SS Waffen though.
it was during and after stalingrad in 1941-1942 that entire wehrmacht squads came to be equipped with SMGs and flamethrowers (or discarded their rifles in favor of SMGs). i think the formation were called storm wedges.
afterwards, in 1944 with the implementation of volksgrenadier divisions, these soldiers were also largely equipped with SMGs,
>>29387021
>Look carefully to find the sniper in the roof.
fucking hell, i've looked at that picture a dozen times and never saw it before
>>29387753
pic related
>>29387753
>wehrmacht NCOs were typically issued MP40s, and later STG-43s, in a standard grenadier squad, while everyone else carried Kar98 and backed up the MG-34/42. not sure about SS Waffen though.
What does this have anything to do with your claim that doctrine was more important than availability in determining who got SMGs? Oh I know, literally not a fucking thing.
>>29387140
I can sense the wehraboo through the screen
>>29387140
>mosins were a bit of a process to make
Are you seriously claiming that the Soviets used SMGs because they ran out nuggets?
>/k/ history thread
>>29387794
>What does this have anything to do with your claim that doctrine was more important than availability in determining who got SMGs?
my first sentence is literally that you illiterate cum spunk
>>29387795
> they were simply ahead of their time in military tactics in many ways
>in many ways
>reactionary SJWs translate this as "German army was better than everyone in every way"
Go be offended by a swastika somewhere else.
>>29387832
> they were simply ahead of their time in military tactics in many ways
not exactly, it's more accurate to say that the wehrmacht had very competent commanders in place who had experience in the Spanish civil war.
>>29387823
Your first sentence is merely an unsupported claim, one that your own post puts into question.
>>29387845
>who had experience in the Spanish civil war.
Tell me your knowledge on the extent of German involvement in the Spanish civil war.
>>29387832
>da BAR is is da werst LMG ever (protip it's not an LMG)
>da bolt action, 5 round mozin was worst den the other bolt actions wif 5 round capacitys and there smg sux too
>m-muh German tactic stronk
>muh mp fotay is da bestest smg Evers!!
This is what you sound like nigger
>>29387847
>>29387859
>>29387881
>>>/b/ is that way, kinder. raus.
>>29387847
now, to elaborate on my previous post, for those who aren't ploin-shaped autistic children, the doctrine of the german infantry squad was based around the MG as a base of fire.
while the importance of a CQB weapon, the SMG, was recognized since WW1, it was still not recognized at that time that most engagements occur at less than roughly 500 meters, so rifles were still the standard infantry weapon, at least until 1942.
>>29387891
No, tell me the reason of your ridiculous claim of the Wermacht having "very competent commanders in place who had experience in the Spanish civil war"
>>29387082
>he's dead, Jim
Rifle is propped up on couch. Only one deceased defender.
>>29387897
>what is the condor legion
jesus fuck, it's like i'm back in high school global history class. pick up a fucking book instead of being an ignorant shit stain on 4chan.
>>29387891
>let me repeat my baseless claim once more in slightly different words
The reason Germans did not use SMGs as much as other countries wasn't doctrine, it was availability. There is a reason they used captured weapons to a degree that non-ISIS armies never should.
>>29387915
Not him but
>implying a handful of German pilots shooting ground targets had anything to do with their command structure.
Jesus dude, Condor Legion was simply the German version of the American Flying Tigers.
>>29387915
Fewer than a division of German army fought in Spain. It takes a serious lack of cognitive capacity to force a simple cause and effect relationship between the SCW and German tactics.
Meanwhile, Italy sent 60k soldiers, yet their commanders were shit.
>>29387915
You're "trolling" right, old sport?
This is a fine example of "trolling" and I'd gladly share a mug of Old Grey with you my son, most splendid work.
>>29387934
>Jesus dude, Condor Legion was simply the German version of the American Flying Tigers.
Condor legion had ground elements.
>Fewer than a division of German army fought in Spain. It takes a serious lack of cognitive capacity to force a simple cause and effect relationship between the SCW and German tactics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condor_Legion#Other_units
>The Condor Legion also included non-aircraft units. Panzer crews operating Panzerkampfwagen I light tanks were commanded by Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma. The Germans also tested their 88 mm heavy anti-aircraft artillery which they used to destroy Republican tanks and fortifications using direct fire, as well as enemy aircraft in their designed role.
>For the 1940 Battle of France, the army was supported by eighty-eights deployed in twenty-four mixed flak battalions.[7] The 8.8 cm Flak was used against heavily armored tanks such as the Char B1 bis and Matilda II, whose frontal armour could not be penetrated by the light 3.7 cm anti-tank guns then available. The 8.8 cm Flak was powerful enough to penetrate over 84 mm of armor at a range of 2 km,[12] making it an unparalleled anti-tank weapon during the early days of the war, and still formidable against all but the heaviest tanks at the end. Erwin Rommel's timely use of the gun to blunt the British counterattack at Arras ended any hope of a breakout from the blitzkrieg encirclement of May 1940. In the entire Battle of France, the weapon destroyed 152 tanks and 151 bunkers.[7] The Battle of France also saw the introduction of vehicle mounted 8.8 cm Flak 18s, the so-called "Bunkerknacker" on the SdKfz 8 heavy tractor.
>>29386821
>>29386821
In German's Wehrmacht doctrine, SMGs where only used by Sturmtruppen or Panzergrenadier (Stormtroopers or Mechanized Infantry) however it doesn't its "only" limited for assault troops; Pioneers, Fallschrimjager, Squad leaders and Officers used this. The tactic, is flank and flush, "storm and hold" along with Rifleman Squads and/or MGs Teams, clear out entrenched troops and/or garrisoned buildings, when things gets nasty, Sturmtruppen will have to throw grenades together and destroy or die trying, having saying from previous description German assault infantry are always about Strong, Fluid and Solid attacks, when comes to Soviet assault infantry in comparison they'll be in tight spots; Germans will be in active defensive and be ready for counter attack whilst Soviets will have to wait for them to make mistake, outpatient and/or charge in and kill them all soon as possible. (Note: Panzergrenadier also bring panzerfaust or panzerschreks to counter enemy armor.)
>>29386821
>>29387981
American Infantry doctrine, is by far outstanding, sometimes assault troops may bring BAR or 2 with them, they are responsible for Assaulting in and take first strikes (like the Germans for this example), with Rifleman Squads or Mechanized Rifle Squad, they are suppose to protect them at all cost, while Rifleman are to provide covering fire, in addition American Assault troops may bring Bazookas to counter enemy vehicles or tanks, because of this Versatility is essential as one of Rifleman's traits, Rangers for example are all about bringing heavy loads firepower and ordnance, accuracy and survivability is their second skill.
Germans and Americans are evenly matched, the difference; Americans Assault troops is about individual firepower and versatility, they can take on the German if they have provide firing support, German Assault troops is about Outsmarting and outflanking the enemy, even they are outnumber 2:1, eventually they'll bring MG42 LMGs and sometimes StG 44s will be present instead of MP40s.
>>29387974
Still what, less than a thousand troops got real experience in Spain?
To answer OP, the smg comes from the First World war and the stormtrooper tactics which were developed to quickly capture trenches.
After the war, Most armies were preparing for a war like the previous (for example, the Maginot line). The smg was a niche weapon for special troops, such as paratroops and assault teams, who needed lot of firepower capable of carried by one man. It was also a personal defense weapon, this is the reason why NCOs and tank crews carried them. It is also the reason why many smgs were developed with collapsible stocks to reduce space.
Basically it has to do with the experience the armies had about fighting and the weapons needed for it. The reason why Russians began to mass-produce smgs with large capacity magazines is that in the conflict against Finland in 1939 they saw the casualties the finnish troops armed with Suomi-kp caused.
Similarly, fighting in cities and ruins was not thought a lot because in the first world war it simply was not common and in the early part of WW2, it was thought to be impossible because the armies would advance so fast. As such, the smg development was stuck in the interwar period for some time.
>>29387974
>Panzer crews operating Panzerkampfwagen I light tanks were commanded by Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma.
He was captured in 1942 and prior to that did absolutely fucking nothing of note.
But I', sure you're just pretending to be retarded.
>>29386821
>>29387999
Soviet Infantry doctrine, is consider by infamous and dreaded, if you know about the Battle of Stalingrad then you'll know about this, Shocktroops are consider "reserved" heavy assault, with sized Infantry Platoon are considered to be bait and they'll be used as confusion, Soviet assault troops adapt the German assault's tactics and learn about them with a twist, they use "gangster tactics" and its quite effective, in a particular scenario, Soviet "Assaultlist" will use grenade and charge in to kill what's left of them, this tactic is originate by the Americans, in open battlefields, Shocktroops and Assaultlist will provide covering fire or try to get attention to support the Rifle Infantry, Like the Americans, versatility is consider essential for survival, Grenades, Molotovs, Smokes and other ordnance is their basic needs, they specialized in Urban assault and Close combat quarters, in City battles Soviets will go house to house and alley to alley to stay out of fire and force them to come for them, open field is another scenario, if there's trenches that's number one priority, if not, they'll have to find what cover they can get.
Adaptation for Soviets pays off, but they have a lot to learn.
>>29387157
>>29387881
>BAR
>support weapon
>Designed for automatic sppressing fire
>carried by one person, with others carrying ammo
That's an LMG whatever the US doctrinally called it. It's not the worst LMG ever, but it was certainly worse than the BREN, ZB or the TYpe 96/97.
>>29387806
I thought they had too many nuggets, and took barrels and cut them in half and rebored them to make smg barrels. Wouldnt suprise me during stalingrad when they were making tanks and aiming them by looking down the barrel
>>29387157
>The US Army never had an LMG until the M60
What the fuck was the M1919?
>>29387157
>designed to suppress the enemy
>not an LMG
I didn't know they made people this stupid.
IIRC Russians and Germans had more submachineguns because theirs were cheap and they were meant on the German side to protect the light machine guns. Russians mostly because it was cheap and they had a lot of city combat. Americans didn't rely on them as much because muh revolutionary war rifleman heritage and the Thompson cost quite a bit more money to make.
>>29388210
That's how it was designated
>>29386857
I didn't realize Donald Trump browsed /k/
>>29388197
>m1919A6
>>29388385
man, i love how primitive these guns look. absolutely zero aesthetic to them at all
>>29388403
When did gun aesthetics become a meme?
>>29388238
Germans did not have more SMGs. Every US squad was provided with SMG. Germans had to use hand-me-downs from dead Soviets.
>>29386821
Doctrine
Blitzkrieg and urban fighting favoured SMG's
Fighting in forests and roads favoured rifles
Defending positions favoured machine guns
Just think about the primary type of combat each country faced to figure out why they did what they did.
>>29388553
>blitzkrieg favored SMGs
Then why did the Germans field virtually no SMG units until late war?
>>29388442
most of the bolt guns were always pretty nice looking
in my opinion machine guns didn't start looking good until the 50s and 60s
>>29388694
M60 looks 4/10
RPK looks like shit
What machine guns started to look good in the 50s/60s?
>>29388770
>America could have a belt-fed FG42 knockoff as their GPMG
>Ran with the M60 abomination instead
>>29387157
>The US Army never had an LMG until the M60 was introduced
>>29388385
We ork now.
>>29386821
>>29388072
British Infantry doctrine doesn't have much to file about assault units, but in terms with Commando and SAS, there consider as infiltrator and guerilla troops but there more uniform and trained at "behind enemy lines", unlike American Paratrooper, they don't bare any heavier ordnance and have little to no support (mainly the free resistance and spies).
Because of this Commando and SAS guerillas are "their on own" to there devices.
>>29386821
>>29390637
[1/2]There is a story about Japanese Assault doctrine in terms with army and sometimes navy (Mainly special naval landing force), Japanese Type 100 SMG is sufficient but not very influential and famed as the Iconic Thompson SMG, the Famous MP40 and PPsh 41s/PPD 40s, Japanese Infantry doctrine as associated with bravery and fulfill might against the enemy, Arisakas Rifles and Carbine variant are the supplement for assault choice, Type 100s along with Arisaka Rifles per 6 troops (4 Rifleman and 2 SMG Infantry) has been standard choice, sadly Japanese are envy of the American small arm weaponry and there 3 times better than what they currently used. Despite of this, Japanese R&D we're trying to compete this envious problem, 1st they looked into Semi-Auto rifles (In fact M1 Garand) but situation in the war was futile, some of Japanese also looked in to better SMG weaponry like the Thompson, but it'll took very long time to study its functionality mostly say even years to find how it works, nevertheless they never find better yet simpler solution for this. Hardly to say this, Japanese Assault troops is all about supporting and giving covering fire the rifleman whatever means necessary, sometimes they use Type 96/97 LMG to compensate short range of their current Type 100 SMG, there are 2 types of Assault troops, SMG Assault troop and LMG Assault troop, those 2 lacked the quality but at the same time it has been compensated for those disadvantages. A Rifle Squad with 2 LMG Assault troops can effectively do Medium to Long range targets, A Rifle Squad with 2-3 SMG Assault troops are efficiently to Medium to Short range targets. Difference between American Assault Infantry and Japanese Assault Infantry, American brought the strongest firepower to bear; from Thompson to M1919A6 LMGs. while Japanese bring their rifles to automatic weaponry mainly LMGs and SMGs, but despites these difference, Japanese are short down in automatic weaponry 3:1.
>>29390890
>>29390890 (You)
[2/2]Situation in Japanese Infantry doctrine is problematic, complaints about Short range SMG of Type 100, R&D not focusing on further researching SMG, and conducting a pilfer tactics on enemy weapons and acquisition for there use, mainly for them is all about killing the enemy in which most is effective, from Rifles, Bayonets and sometimes swords and sticks (to compensate against the enemy). If Japanese we're to compete against the Highly industrious of United States; Scenario #1: Rifles, Arisaka Rifles was effective by any means, Japanese Infantry are very effective and well talented with their rifles, but against the Americans, An average US Rifleman would defeated a Seasoned Japanese Rifleman because of Semi-Auto M1 Garand, to find this issue they needed a rifle that can compete against American Rifleman, Semi-Auto, 10 Rounds, Detachable magazine, and different accessories of rifle grenades of all types HE,HEAT and etc, Scenario #2: LMG and Belt feeding MGs, this is one of difficult challenges against the Americans, Type 96 and Type 97 LMGs we're sometimes heavy, An American Automatic Rifleman that's carries a BAR AR (Automatic Rifle, Not Assault Rifle) is considered threatening and sometimes had to focus fire on them, if they wanted to defeat this problem, reducing the weight of Type 96/97 would solve this, handle barrel could make it things easier (as if its Japanese version of Bren LMG), a belt-fed version can be helped when comes to competing American Browning LMG, Scenario #3: Sub-Machine guns, the Assault Infantry must have standardized SMG of 30 to 40 rounds in a mag-stick, collapsible stock, reliable and effective range of 100 to 200m, in order to compete against American SMG Assault troops wielding the Thompson. With these issues fixed, they're evenly matched when comes to Infantry warfare, but those problem weren't solve, and Japanese have lost the will to fight in hopeless odds.
>>29387140
>BAR was a piece of shit
proofs
>>29387140
>the BAR was a piece of shit compared to its contemporaries
>BAR was a piece of shit
>BAR = shit
God damn, Son of a- Are you serious!
the BAR was one of best weapons since ww1.
Even in ww2 it's still famous, among with Rifle Infantry, reliable!
>>29391315
Proof to me and him wrong. Bastard.
>>29391315
>>29391315
20+ lbs, 20 round capacity, no quick change barrel, awful and heavy as shit bipod
>>29391757
Why would the BAR need a quick change barrel? Think before you post.
>>29391797
Dat mad.
>>29387787
Why would No. 2 man only have a pistol? That sounds fucking stupid.
>>29392336
He's only there to carry shit for the No. 1 guy.
>>29388263
trump is more coherent
>>29391863
He's right about that, the BAR has a heavy enough barrel, a low enough mechanical ROF, and low enough practical ROF (thanks to 20 round box mags) that a quick change barrel system isn't necessary.
>>29388197
>belt fed
>tripod
>weighs 31lbs without tripod
It's a heavy MG dumbass.
>>29393326
what the fuck is a m1919a6
>>29393424
A stop gap measure to fill a role that the US army didn't have a weapon for, but saw a need for. The 1919A6 didn't replace all 1919s in service, the vast majority were still configured as HMGs (like the one in the picture you posted). You can play the semantics game but the other anon is correct, the M60 was the first real LMG the US army had.
>>29389315
>post a battle rifle
>call it a LMG
>>29388263
ebin post
___D__
_____E]
>>29386857
you waste words.
>>29387135
More than likely its bits of wall from the adjacent house. Some cities had buildings right next to each other touching, and US infantry probably blasted both walls with a single charge.
>>29393326
that didn't keep infantry from lugging it around the battlefield in a team, one man caries the tripod, another the gun and the 3rd ammo.
>>29396147
And that has what to do with my post? Did I say they didn't? Did soldiers not carry Maxims like that? Are you going to tell me Maxim is an LMG? Do you know what the fuck an LMG is?
>>29388242
The present M249 is also designated an autorifle, that doesn't make it not an LMG.
>>29392853
>low enough practical ROF (thanks to 20 round box mags) that a quick change barrel system isn't necessary
I can tell you've never fired a gun in your life.
>>29391292
>>29390890
This is a beautiful disaster of a post
>>29388113
An LMG has to be chambered in a intermediate round. No lmgs existed until assault rifles started being a thing
>>29387899
look at the roof
>>29386946
sauce of pic?
>>29393499
>>29393551
>>29393530
Lol faggots
>>29396858
BAR didn't need one
>>29388197
>needs a crew.
LMG alright.
>>29386946
Three defenders. Sniper in attic, one in left room and another at top of stairs.
