What's the decisive factor in winning at close quarters battle?
>>28383107
unit cohesion and surprise i imagine
>>28383107
strength of force and whoever has bigger guns better ammo and more friends
>>28383107
Whoever has the most men.
>>28383136
that's just attrition
>Communication
>Violence of action
>Element of surprise
>Enemy's defenses
Putting bullets in the other guy before he puts bullets in you.
As a general rule, those who choose Sebenza™ will wind up on top.
>>28383107
For master race countries
high level of training paired with aggresive and confident actions
Then you have russians - explosives, loads of explosives and there some more explosves
And monkey way - sandniggers with ak some more sandnigers with ak and on top of that more sandniggers with ak
Grenades.
>>28383107
Don't let your adversary fill up his house with propane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8HtqqI6s8c
>>28383287
Yeah, this.
Violence of action is what I was going to say specifically. Hesitation, inexperience, lack of communication and lack of unit cohesion are what kills the dude standing next to you in CQB and urban warfare in general
Best would be using an AR rifle that takes in AK rounds.
Then making sure your snioer doesnt carry too much tacticools because they are deadweight
Lastly make sure you have a Hind that will arrive in dire straights
Don't blow your guys up during training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA57DrCVStA
sheer volume of fire and the rate of that fire.
who ever shoots the most the fastest is most likely to win.
Violence of action
superior firepower
coordination and communication
>>28383287
this
quickly overrun and neutralize the enemy before he has time to prepare a defense. if he knows you are coming, be prepared for a bloody, costly firefight
>>28383412
>le power of an AK, accuracy of an M16 maymay
>sniper operating in close confines
>CAS for room to room
I feel this is b8, but sometimes its hard to be sure.
Thermobaric rockets and incendiary grenades.
>>28383552
this.
Don't need training when you got fire
>>28383580
LAPD please go and stay go.
Staying frosty and checking your corners
How much validity does "limited penetration" have as CQB tactics?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNv5QxUft7c
>>28383628
not all pyromaniacs are LAPD
I AM A TRANS-ELEMENT.
>>28383447
>accuracy through volume
the Vietnam war would like to have a word with you
>>28383447
>guys, I'm going to suppress the corner!
>>28383904
works in insurgency ;)
>>28383107
Killing the other guy before he can kill you
>>28383107
Tactics, aggression.
>>28383955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVAR-juyi7E
>>28383714
It's a valid tactic. The dude in the video can't teach to save his life, but its a decent principle. It falls flat if you have to clear rooms that are only accessible from inside the structure, as you lose some of the protection the door jam offers. But that becomes moot if you can just blow a hole in the wall
>>28383456
He's referring to this
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=9wncS6tO59M
>>28384079
>clear rooms
Room clearing is a myth outside of law enforcement, where people almost universally surrender immediately without resistance.
>>28384119
what's the alternative?
>works in rainbow six :^)
>>28384079
Got any good reference material for CQB tactics? Just want to satiate my curiosity.
>>28383149
Worked for the Russians.
Penis girth
>>28383107
Speed
Surprise
Violence of action
The Art of Two Guns is the book for you
>>28384119
>Room clearing is a myth outside of law enforcement
>What is Fallujah for 300
Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
>>28384141
Youtube doesn't have a whole lot that isn't shitty quality. Here's a taste of the kind of stuff they teach combat engineers. I'll dig through liveleak, see if they have some stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxTNRb0ybrQ
>>28383107
Bullets in the other guy
>>28384119
Looks like we better tell the troops! The enemy will just surrender as soon as you show up, regardless of how well trained and prepared they are! No more need to waste time and money teaching room clearing tactics because the enemy will always surrender!
>>28384141
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/united_states_army_fm_90-10x1%20-%2012_may_1993%20-%20part09.pdf
>>28383107
Magazine capacity
>>28384218
>Fallujah
Those rooms never got "cleared" until you went through them with a dog trained to sniff explosives. Rooms are never clear, ever. It is not a thing.
The whole concept of "room clearing" is a residue of anti-drug policing, faultily transposed to military and paramilitary contexts. Police have to enter buildings to retrieve drugs, money and persons. These people give up without incident in 99.9% of occasions, then go to prison.
I have no idea why people think Abdul the terrorist is going to come quietly. Abdul is not flushing his grenades like Jamal in Cincinnati is flushing his crack. I can only assume the proliferation of police procedurals on television has warped many minds.
>>28384219
Appreciate it but there's no need for you to go through that sort of trouble. Thanks
>>28384269
Thanks!
>>28384294
so how do you get the terrorists out of the building?
>>28384294
If Adbul is asleep in his bed alone in Cincinnati at six in the morning can't he get door kicked/flash banged and nabbed or shot reaching for his trusty (insert Adbul's favorite sidearm here)?
>>28384339
If there are no hostages or whatever, JDAMs.
>>28384339
BTR through the wall
Or in the case of floojuh, M1
Reflexes
whoever has the most HE wins the fight.
>>28384339
You don't, you bring down the building on em
>>28384354
suppose there are hostages?
>>28384363
And when there are 150 other people in that building?
Maybe you gotta go in, clear some rooms?
>>28383904
heh
>>28384381
you mean extra bodies?
>>28384359
The check is in the mail
>>28384381
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izL5T_4UPpQ
>>28384143
Until they lost most of their working class men and fucked up
Violence of action means the unrestricted use of speed, strength, surprise, and aggression to achieve total dominance against your enemy. I'm repeating this to drive home the concept that any fighting technique is useless unless you first totally commit to violence of action. Don't be afraid to hit first, and when you do, hit hard. Remember, you are fighting because this is the best and only option. Pull the trigger -- because you are in a battle for your life! Your instincts, assessment, and situational awareness have told you that you are in mortal danger. You don't know the other person's intentions fully, and you never can. What you can do is survive -- it is your right to not be killed or harmed by another person.
>>28383107
grenades
>>28384441
we're not talking about a fucking fist fight here
Your speed is only useful up until you run into a tripwire and lose 8 people.
>>28384382
The Army's answer: Welp, good thing we brought 150 body bags
But seriously, that's the sort of situation where people are going to die. Probably in droves. In order to walk away with only a handful of dead, you need to take out all the bad guys simultaneously, which isn't possible most of the time. So you blow a couple holes in the walls and attempt to shove your dick down the baddies throats as hard and fast as physically possible
>>28384301
this may be relevant as well
http://www.survivalebooks.com/free%20manuals/1961%20US%20Army%20Vietnam%20War%20Guerilla%20Warfare%20&%20Special%20Forces%20Operations%20264p.pdf
>>28383107
nobody posted sleep gas yet?
>>28384429
Jesus Christ, there's shakicam bullshit, and then there's this faggotry
>>28384489
Control yourself Russia.
>>28384507
The funny thing is the GIGN guys from the operation liked the movie.
>>28384429
>liberal cucks allow muslims to kill thousands of europeans in algeria
>anti-terrorism team is obviously a joke, if this video is true to life
And now theres this latest terrorist attack in france, and the treasonous socialist president insists nothing will be done to reduce muslim immigration.
>>28384523
Holy shit, please elaborate on this. What happened?
>>28384562
Moscow Theater siege. Sleeping gas was used to subdue the terrorists but the Spetsnaz involved didnt mention to the medics what type of gas was used and many died of complications of that gas.
>>28384562
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis
I know I know faggotpedia Jimbo wales moar like homowhales etc.
But it is a starting point.
>>28384451
a tripwire in cqb? someone's ptsd set off senpai?
>>28383107
One who puts nerve agent in building wins comrade.
I've been playing a lot of Doorkickers lately and if I didn't already have enough respect for close quarter engagements, I do now.
>>28384077
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gGx8Jr1AfM
>mfw
>>28384523
>>28384603
Holy fucking shit, Russia
>>28384084
>https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=9wncS6tO59M
This link doesn't do anything.
>>28384645
Jesus Christ.
>>28384645
Who the fuck were those guys they opened up on? Communists?
>>28384767
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_Movement
Probably these guys.
>>28384119
look at him. look at him and laugh
>>28384429
Wow, GIGN got their shit handed to them.
How much has plane-storming doctrine changed since then?
>>28384559
>>28384934
>all of the terrorists are killed
>none of the passengers are harmed
>the only member of the assault team hurt is the guy who fell off of the stairs, who had back problems after that
If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.
>>28384946
Yea, just saw the real life footage of this. Wasn't as bad as the movie made it out to seem, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Still, my question still stands. How have the procedures for this shit evolved since then? Armor's definitely improved, but what about other factors? Why did the terrorists all get cooped up in the cabin? Wouldn't that be easier to hit from the outside?
>>28384934
I think the only thing as non fun as trying to storm a metal tube that is rigged with explosives ans also containing people you can't kill and people who want to kill you as well as killing the people you can't kill and trying to make a few people die as possible would be trying to do all that on a moving rollercoaster.
>>28384974
*trying to make as few people die
New Years, drunk, love you /k/
when you kill more people than they do
>>28383107
the other guy being dead.
>>28384218
this
>>28384969
I imagine the next guys to do this will make absolutely sure that they have the stairs secured.
Other than that, I'm not sure. I'm guessing using rifles to punch right through the cockpit would probably make life a lot easier.
>>28385004
What about the hostages inside?
>>28384974
I think people underestimate this which is also why the general public loses their shit when they hear of things like the Moscow theater siege. People just seem to expect operators to be able to go in and kill everyone, come out and have no problems during the whole process.
>>28383107
Violence of action
>>28385015
There was only one guy in the cockpit and he hopped out in the opening stages of the fight.
After that, the snipers started pouring fire into the cockpit.
>>28383107
being able to run away faster than someone else
>>28384429
>using handguns as a primary weapon
kek
>>28383381
Russians just seams like fun to operate with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIC2lI2Exys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiujPAJAkIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKV_mfTsW_A
>>28384294
Why would you deliberately tell bad lies on the internet? On New Year's no less.
>>28384141
General Zhukov wrote a memoir after the war where he mentioned that late in the battle of Stalingrad, soldiers would just load up on grenades, and only carry pistols.
>>28385143
probably used pistols because they had run out of PPShs. have fun clearing rooms with a mosin lol
>>28385179
>that one old ruskie who went in with a ppsh42
>awoke standing covered in blood
>holding bloody mosin with bayonet attached
Fuck sakes, happy new year /k/
>>28383287
Future Weapons guy, pls
>>28385212
>42
Meant 41
typo baka desu senpai
Spam these.
Isn't intelligence and counter intelligence a big factor? Attackers know or think they know what capabilities defender in some shit tenement building has? Or vice versa defenders know like 12 hours in advance 3 wheeled armored vehicles are coming with x amount of dudes who are going to dismount and run up the stairs and then defenders prepare accordingly?
>>28384700
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vj_afgI3C4
>>28385340
yes. intelligence is a huge factor, bluefor and opfor will plan according to whatever information they possess
everybody meme'ing violence of action. please run around wildy in a cqb situation and see if your violence of action saves you. cqb is more positioning and awareness, violence of action is vital but only after positioning and your awareness prompts you into action.
anybody who is trained whatsoever will not run around like a chicken with its head cut off counting on shear firepower to survive. you've got to be totally focused and aware of your surroundings with the mind to position your body in such a way to maximize cover and mobility.
generally what you would need in my opinion is something like this:
multiple soldiers highly trained in CQC combat and house clearing
a good submachine gun (i.e MP5, AK74u, FNP90 etcetera)
fucktons of flashbangs, as seeing grenades could cause damage to team mates seeing as they are fucking grenades.
and probably shittons of more details but since im not trained in that kinda shit, im not going to be much of a reliable source.
>>28385438
>AK74 anything
>submachine gun
:^)
>>28385438
I know it's b8, but fuck off to /v/ regardless. Keep your shitty faggotry over there
>>28385242
A regular, Lemon Party.
>happy 2016 niggers
The decisive factor is getting the drop on your opponent. It doesn't matter how high speed they are if they get hit with gunfire before they can react.
If you run into each other at the same time than it comes down to who is better trained and faster with their weapon.
>>28383107
Canted iron sights
>>28385395
Pretty sure the previous references to "violence of action" weren't talking about COD fag tactics.
but hey, nice blogpost there captain obvious.
>>28385518
There must be some way to "tank up" the point man? We know roughly what's going to be coming at him for a few seconds, just give him a fuck you and everything suit of armor and a shotgun or shoulder slung saw for fucks sakes.
![comment_nbdh6IwwyyDoZTvsN0PjRiJTp32qaRpO[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Pldis3j.jpg "comment_nbdh6IwwyyDoZTvsN0PjRiJTp32qaRpO[1].jpg")
>>28384691
obligatory
>>28385546
Shit, what was this about?
>>28384077
The Agents took him out before the audio even started. Crazy watch the window. He engages all three agents and then door agent takes him out.
agression and speed
>>28384691
They saved about 700 peoples' lives. They did the right thing.
![140131162421-beslan-siege-11-horizontal-large-gallery[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SYj6XQ9.jpg "140131162421-beslan-siege-11-horizontal-large-gallery[1].jpg")
>>28385634
The 2002 Nord-Ost Siege aka Moscow Theatre Hostage Crisis.
I still think the Beslan School Siege was way more fucked up.
>>28385634
please see >>28384603
>>28383107
OODA loop speed and accuracy. Be fast, hit the target. Simple but difficult.
>>28384401
I was in that thread, it's kek you fag
>>28385799
feckyursalf
>>28385634
chechens, bro.
Its always fucking chechens
>>28385863
[beheading russians intensifies]
>>28385799
uh what the fuck are you talking about sperg?
>>28385546
What a dank meme.
Try 900 hostages, though.
>>28385962
it's a pretty old dank meme :^)
>>28383107
Retreating to a standoff distance and bringing a battery of howitzers to bear on whatever you are supposed to capture.
>>28383107
The best way to come out on top in a CQB situayion is to make sure that bullets hit your enemy but not you.
>>28384119
Wow. Honestly the dumbest thing ive read on k
>>28383107
Whoever is willing to lose more. See the Russians and their reaction to hostage situations. "Fuck it, we'll kill them all, no negotiating with terrorists
>>28384441
Thanks boss!
>>28385438
Fuck you get out
>>28385544
Until we hit the next big thing in kinetic reduction materials, we've got the best we've got. Tactics are the deciding factor anymore. This includes things like robotics and drones if we could ever make them quiet.
>>28386224
Surely a bellow, metal bellow, shaped shield that you can move up with you and just a fuckerrything weapon mounted into it like a WWII tank's bow gunner. Just move up and blast shit.
Shield thing could be mounted on a fucking Robo scooter like bush had, and the quick stabilizing arms/levers that are deployed when ever it isn't pushed by the rear.
Seamless. I think a /diy/er could maybe do it if he already has that self-righting scooter thing.
>>28383107
Other than the basic factors of battle -- surprise, speed, overwhelming force, supressive fire -- creating the maximum amount of friction within the shortest amount of time so that you're able to overwhelm your opponent's defenses and will -- the most overlooked decisive factor is interpretation and use of the battlespace.
A hallway or an alley is not something to walk down. A wall is a pathway. One should not penetrate an objective -- one should expand from within its center.
An introduction to this tactical concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXfV9iWYkDI
A more in-depth examination: http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/the_art_of_war/
pic somewhat related. It's John Boyd, strategist and theorist whose work inspired the air superiority fighter concept (f-14/15/16/18) and the USMC's "Warfighting", as well as much of contemporary US tactical and strategic thought.
>>28386312
enter mike sparks
http://www.combatreform.org/gunshield.htm
>>28383107
Planning.
OR
Using one of THESE.
>>28385544
>>28386224
power armor attached to a cable would do just fine
This is probably achievable today, in fact.
>>28386815
By cable, I mean, attached to an power source like a tank or w/e you could leave outside.
Sufficient armor to handle grenades, rifle fire, small IED's, etc
>>28386681
>EDGE
lol
Not dying
>>28384599
And even more died og shitty medicwork puttibg sleeping people en busses who then stoppede breathing because of awkward positions og because of them being stacked on top og each other
>>28385688
It's not like the situation at hand was simple.
More than 1000 hostages and a fuck ton of angry Chechens that are ready to blow everything to hell. I'd be interesting to see how Americans would handle this kind of hostage situation.
>>28385046
there were still two people left in the cockpit after the guy jumped out
>>28386681
>lobbing fat slow .45 at a door kicking team
Will do wonders to their body armor. Absolute wonders.
>>28385544
ballistic shield
shield wielding skills
>>28383398
/thread
Speed
Aggresion
Gear
Enviroment
>>28383107
RPO-A everything, start laying out the bodybags.
Once the worst fires die down go in and scrape the enemy from the walls.
>>28383107
there was an interesting nam thread last night and it talked about sog forces taking on battalion sized elements and breaking contact. look up sog Hatchet Forces. lots of explosives and a shit ton of bullets really quickly, then you break contact and put down claymores
>>28389322
I did and the only mention of claymore is when the viet kongo used one on the sog
does dense jungle even count as CQB?
>>28387372
You'll likely get that opportunity in the coming years.
>>28387372
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but the Americans aren't the kind of fuckups that let this shit happen.
>have an active war zone within your borders
>have checkpoints
>sand niggers just bribe their way through the checkpoints because your society is infested with petty corruption
1 good gun like fn as sidearm and hk416 ore submechine gun
2 light but strong protection evreywhere
3 confidence
4 eaten well
>>28389938
>does dense jungle even count as CQB?
It probably should count.
>>28383107
Trying to remember the basics of CQC
>>28383381
Russians would rather blow up a whole city block than bother engaging in close combat
>>28383107
>7.62x39 for penetration
>Volume/ Rate of fire (not full auto, just solid semi mag dump)
>Grenades, lots of em
and like others said
>Aggressive action
Pretty much like pic related, and it works.
>>28383107
Getting the drop
>>28390284
Americans would just burn the whole building down
See: Waco and Dorner
>>28385066
>wanting to be burdened by a too big tacticool AR inside a tight ass metal can you can barely maneuver
>wanting to overpenatrate and kill 3 rows of passengers because you felt the need to magdump inside the plane
>>28383107
speed and violence
>>28387860
i see what you did there
>>28391611
did you see the pic of the m4/tar versus the deagle
hands are further out
>>28383107
Air support
>>28383107
Drone and some FLIR. AC-130 for support.
>>28383714
Why did he shoot an unarmed dude in his pyjamas?
