why didnt they just build more?
>>28084688
They did build a lot. The problem was they didn't have enough pilots for them and they were used as bait at the end of the war like at Samar.
>>28084688
Because America said "Fuck no" and blew them up.
>>28084688
they did, but it was too late, and they could never outproduce the USA. They knew that from the beginning
>>28084688
If wasn't for Pearl Harbor at Hawaii, it might be possible for the US would be in trouble in terms of air superiority.
Plus... If Japan didn't indoctrinate "Banzai" Tactics, well surely, it would make casualties reduced to slight 60 or even 85% of the Imperial Navy.
Another note that, if they upgrade or fix/redesign the existing Carriers (Ex. Kaga, Akagi, etc) from 1930-39 it would be a disastrous for US at the pacific.
>>28084878
As if stood, their carries being floating powder kegs waiting to go boom worked out well for us.
>>28085027
To be fair, everyone but the US had pretty shitty damage control practices and designs.
The US Navy had ships beaten to scrap repeatedly then quickly repaired because of far, far better damage control training. In the Pacific it made all the difference.
>>28085027
Every early carrier was a floating powder keg. The Lexington blew up because of one torpedo hit, same with Ark Royal. Japan's modern carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku took several hits and survived just fine.
>>28085069
>Ark Royal.
Didn't blow up, doomed by poor damage control and a CO who abandoned ship too early.
>losing four fleet carriers in one battle
Poor zipperheads never stood a chance against whites.
>>28085069
>Lexington
Holy fuck, you are retarded
>>28084724
This.
>>28085034
It always surprises me how much shit the Yorktown took before she went down.
>>28085069
There's a bit of a difference between not being very sturdy and having so much fuel and ordinance waiting to go up in smoke that a single hit is all it takes.
>>28085475
Just read the wikipedia article: holy fuck, tough ass ship. That doesn't even make sense.
>>28084878
Not really.
Japan was doomed the moment they decided that going war with the US was a good idea.
>>28085475
>>28085860
Apparently the Yorktown sank three times. The first two were false reports so the Japs were BTFO when suddenly its planes showed up.
>>28085475
>>28085860
Same way with the battleships. The West Virginia, Nevada, Oklahoma, and Tennessee all got completely fucked up before they were finally sank and all except the Tennessee were able to be returned to service in time to actually contribute.
Hell. they nuked the Nevada during Operation Crossroads and still didn't sink it.
>>28084688
They couldn't. Japan's industrial capacity was shit.
Most of the IJN's battleships were built by the British. Their carriers were mostly haphazard conversions of batteships and transports. The number of pilots trained by their flight schools since their inception was fewer than 10,000.
They were fucked from the start, and they knew it. Problem was, the successes of the Sino-Japanese War and Russo-Japanese War had convinced them that things would always go their way regardless of how impossible things seemed at the start.
![Isoroku Yamamoto the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet 2011 BRRip 450MB x264-VYTO[P2PDL].mkv_snapshot_00.47.54_[2015.12.04_11.43.16].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/pMA4XKK.jpg "Isoroku Yamamoto the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Fleet 2011 BRRip 450MB x264-VYTO[P2PDL].mkv_snapshot_00.47.54_[2015.12.04_11.43.16].jpg")
Why didn't they listen to him?
>>28086246
What is sad is that their navy were fucked before the industrial might of the USA came into play. By the middle of 1943, their carrier aviation force was shredded and shipless, they lost many of their experienced seamen and naval engineers, their destroyers were lost in such large numbers that their abilities were beyond Japan's logistical necessities, and the now improved Mark 14 torpedoes were finally allowing US submarines to wreck havoc on Japan's merchant fleet. The Solomon's was the death knell of the IJN.
>>28086246
Their only chance for victory could have been that doctrine about decisive battle, but why did they expect Americans to ever join such risky battle?
>>28085069
Lexington was a special case, the torp ruptured an avgas tank, which was then ignited by the turboelectric propulsion. A turbine ship might have survived.
Unlike Taiho the fumes were not spread throughout the ship.
>>28086350
With big risk, comes big payoff. That's essentially the war plan of places like Germany and Japan: places with limited resources, but with a motivated population.
>>28086246
The new ships build during the war didn't change anything, maybe subs, but Americans were able to replace all of their carrier planes very fast with new models.
Despite developing new conpetitive planes the Japanese industry never managed to build them, instead they used every old shit plane until they got shot down.
>>28086405
That particular line is more about the U.S. industrial capacity, not just ship building. It is brought up quite a few times, because the film emphasizes how Yamamoto tried everything to keep Japan from going to war.
>>28086405
This, even if the US actually decided to match Japan's ship numbers, they still would of won do to having better planes and better trained pilots. Having three times the number of destroyers wasn't what won the Battle of the Philippines Sea.
>>28086397
They'd still have to land in America to capture it. The decisive battle may have brought victory to the Japanese on the sea, but on land it's a completely different story
>>28086532
Well they could have hoped to make peace with the US after achieving victory on the sea. However this strategy could not work against a big industrialized nation like the US, they would just have built more ships.
The decisive battle was a myth. See what happened to the Germans: despite winning several "decisive" battles against the Soviets, they still got wrecked.
>>28086382
It matters a lot where ship takes the hit.
Two more unlucky carriers here:
Priceton, took one bomb between elevators, fire spread and she sank.
Franklin, took two bombs when fueling aircraft.
Pretty much the same thing that happened to Japanese at Midway, but damage control managed to save the ship.
>>28086109
The battleships as a class did pretty well at Bikini, Arkansas excepted. Took 5 days for the Nagato to sink, DC crews could have saved it if they were aboard...then die of cancer in the next six months.
>>28086246
They did listen to him, because he threatened to resign to get the Pearl Harbor operation and the Midway operation approved. Both operations were about the worst possible ways to go about Japan's strategic goals.
One, he attacked the US premier pacific naval base and ensured that the war would be total, instead of the limited wars Japan had fought up until that point.
Two, he attacked the pacific fleet at pearl harbor in waters where almost all ships could be refloated, on the day of the week where few sailors would actually be on board and thereby minimize the loss of trained sailors.
Third, he attempted to fight thd US carriers on their own turf within range of US land based planes, and brought only half his available carrier numbers to the battle.
Tl;dr, Yamamoto fucked up by the numbers and was the United States' best fleet commander.
>>28086595
>despite winning several "decisive" battles against the Soviets
Not enough decisive battles in the time given.
Like in WWI, Germany assumed Russia to be a big, lumbering, stupid bear that could be finished off without a lot of effort. But I guess Hitler was the only German to really think that, whereas his generals were horrified to see the plans for Barbarossa laid out on the table for the first time.
>>28086645
I do like the spin the world has given Yamamoto, even though he was both incompetent and a childish blowhard hungry for glory. One spoken line about the dangers of fighting the US, and suddenly he is a peacenik. Hell, the IJN in general is suddenly the good boy to the IJA's bad boy, when many army generals were adamant about not wanting to fight the multi-front war the navy was clamoring for.
>>28086330
That sub mention is an important one. The US navy was the only force in history to successfully impose a submarine blockade on an enemy.
>>28084688
>>28084878
>>28086014
>>28085027
>>28086807
So the general consensus is that you would not go to war against the U.S.; however, would the U.S. get involved if the Japanese invaded British, Dutch, and Australian possessions? It I was in the japanese command I would invade these countries under the pretext of "Asian independence."
Why doesn't the US navy adopt the "high-low" approach for carriers
Have your flagship technology demonstrator fleet carriers
But also have a large number of cheaply built medium carriers.
Could save a lot of money while increasing capabilities
>>28088244
Our amphibs will basically be light carriers once they get f35Bs
>>28084878
Banzai was only used after all their good pilots were dead
>>28088282
Yea but they are as expensive as the nimitz were, despite carrying a fraction of the planes
>>28088304
America is super expensive (3.4b) some some ungodly reason, but the older wasp class ran at about 750 million compared to a Nimitz at 4-4.5 billion.
>>28084688
Because their planes didn't come back
>>28088354
and the older wasps are being replaced by 12, 3 billion dollar America class
>>28086532
>They'd still have to land in America to capture it.
Winning a war doesn't require conquering the. Most wars haven't been fought 'to the end', like Americans dream about.
>Well they could have hoped to make peace with the US after achieving victory on the sea. However this strategy could not work against a big industrialized nation like the US, they would just have built more ships.
Theoretically they could have parked themselves off the West Coast and just shelled and bombed the cities in an attempt to force peace talks. This would require them to capture midway or Hawaii though, and would stretch supply lines considerably. At the same time, just "building more ships" takes time that would have allowed them to do those things, likewise transferring the Altantic fleet just wasn't feasible, given the war with Germany.
So they certainly had a chance, just not a very good one.
>>28088034
I'm honestly not sure what the Pacific ABDA alliance would mean as far as the US going to war over European or Australian interests. I kind of doubt they would, since both Roosevelt and a majority of the population were opposed to war at that point. It would have been an act of war against the USA if they engaged either of the US ships in the ABDA fleet, but not near the same extent as of provocation as Pearl Harbor. Another thing to remember is that the European Axis powers were pushing Japan hard to go to war because they needed world class navy on their team.
>>28088454
And the older Nimitz class ships are going to be replaced with an equal number of 10 billion dollar Ford class carriers.
>>28088460
>Most wars haven't been fought 'to the end', like Americans dream about.
True that.
>So they certainly had a chance, just not a very good one.
Not without a solid tanker fleet to transport the oil they acquired during their expansion. Seriously, WWII showed than even a few subs can easily tear apart a lot of merchant ships, and the Japanese did not have the numbers nor the sufficient production capacity to sustain heavy losses.
>>28088304
Because the Nimitz were designed 50 something years ago and inflation exists.
>>28086382
The Hornet was killed after 3 bombs and 2 torps.
The Wasp was killed after effectively 2 torps.
Early carriers were shit because they had to fit within the treaty limits. Japs' were no different.
The Taiho, though, was a truly appalling redesign of a successful design.
>>28085294
>The explosion caused Ark Royal to shake, hurled loaded torpedo-bombers into the air, and killed Able Seaman Edward Mitchell.[93] A 130-by-30-foot (39.6 m × 9.1 m) hole was created on the starboard side and bottom by a torpedo which was judged to have run deep, striking the bilge keel, and detonating inboard of the side protection system.[94] The hit caused flooding of the starboard boiler room, main switchboard, oil tanks, and over 106 feet (32 m) of the ship's starboard bilge. The starboard power train was knocked out, causing the rear half of the ship to lose power, while communications were severed shipwide.
>Immediately after the torpedo strike, Captain Maund attempted to order the engines to full stop, but had to send a runner to the engine room when it was discovered communications were down.[96] The hole in the hull was enlarged by the ship's motion, and by the time Ark Royal stopped she had taken on water and begun to list to starboard, reaching 18° from centre within 20 minutes.[96]
And the Courageous was killed from 2 torps. Early carriers were shit, no matter the country.
>>28088485
The ABDA alliance was something Roosevelt forced the Brits and the Dutch into.
Germany-first policy was set in stone before either the ABDA alliance or Pearl Harbor.
>>28088460
>Theoretically they could have parked themselves off the West Coast and just shelled and bombed the cities in an attempt to force peace talks.
There is stupid, then there is this.
>>28088034
The Brits and the Dutch only agreed to sanction Japanese and embargo Japan because the US promised a defensive alliance. Otherwise there is no reason they wouldn't have just continued trading with Japan, and there is no reason for Japan to attack those possessions when it was already stretched thin in China.
>>28084688
The Japanese could never keep up with America industrially. Not at that time. The thing you have to understand about Japan is it is incredibly resource poor. That is WHY Japan did Pearl Harbor. They seized almost the entire Southeast Pacific in a series of lightning raids against forces unprepared for that. They captured colonies and properties belonging to Brtain, the Dutch, and America. They did that to capture the resources that they lacked and that the Western Powers were threatening to take away due to their war with China. Japan hit America in a failed attempt to scare us away from the region and to let Japan keep all those resources to fuel its war with China. Read that again WITH CHINA, they didn't think America was going to go all Godzilla on them.
The Japanese thought that they could hold all the little islands and make it such a pain in the ass to ever take them that America wouldn't try. America responded by jumping islands and redefining our understanding of physics to fuck them in the ass.
The short answer is, Japan COULDNT just make more. Sure, sure, if the Yamato was carriers instead or blah blah blah, but it wouldn't matter. America would have broken their backs eventually. Prolonging the war a few months with a few more carriers isn't winning, its just buying time.
>>28088460
>Theoretically they could have parked themselves off the West Coast and just shelled and bombed the cities in an attempt to force peace talks. This would require them to capture midway or Hawaii though, and would stretch supply lines considerably. At the same time, just "building more ships" takes time that would have allowed them to do those things, likewise transferring the Altantic fleet just wasn't feasible, given the war with Germany.
>So they certainly had a chance, just not a very good one.
There is not enough stupid in the world to describe this, other than you.
> shelling US western seaboard
> 10 miles off the coast
> in range of 3000 USAF and USN planes
>>28090088
Oh please, Japan had a lot of resources after conquering a good chunk of Asia in the thirties, and became a industrial powerhouse that exceeded many European nations. Their need to keep fighting in a war with China for over 5 years was the only reason they needed much more resources than they currently had. Also, it wasn't China that got them embargoed, it was when they strong armed Vichy France and took their colonies that got every Western power in the region alarmed.
>>28090210
Someone got their history lesson from playing HOI 3.
Many European nations means Hungary, Romania, and that kind of Boratstan.
Counting in Manchuria, Formosa, Korea, Dutch East Indies, and Occupied China, Japan raised their industrial capacity from 1/12th that of the US to about 1/10th.
Tip for the future, never use Paradox games as a source.
>>28090392
Japan's IC in HOI3 is shit though.
>>28090392
He's partially right though. The resource disparity between the allies and axis wasn't that large at the outset of the war. '44 was when resource shortages began, due both to allied bombing and loss of territory. What mattered up until then was how they used those resources, and the allies used their resources far more efficiently than the axis powers.
>>28090477
Uh no, the resource disparity was massive in 1930s.
>>28088244
Medium carriers would still require just as much protection as fleet carriers.
The best way to increase capabilities while saving money is to make sure everything in the fleet can support rotary wing ASW.
>>28090449
Don't have the game installed ATM, but IIRC Japan starts with 90ish and gets to about 180 after rolling over China in a a couple of months. USA starts with 350.
More realistic is Japan starting with 60, able to get maybe 100 after conquering China, then USA starts with 700+.
USA is turbonerfed in HOI 3 for the sake of game balance. Most nations can build twice or more (cough Germany) of their historical OOB, US has to game the system and not fight/upgrade at all to hit their historical OOB.
>>28090392
Comparing most nations to the USA during that time is stupid, since very few could match them. Japan's industrial capabilities matched or surpassed those of France, and exceeded the likes of other Western nations like Spain, Italy, and Canada.
>>28090760
>Japan's industrial capabilities matched or surpassed those of France
Not even close. Japan was closer to Italy.
>>28090535
Please note I'm speaking about resources, and I said outset of war with the allies, so mid-late 1941. By this point Japan had taken control of massive coal and iron deposits, along with areas rich in manganese and bauxite. Shortly after the outbreak of far, they took rich oil fields in south east asia, along with large deposits of gold, tungsten, tin, and more. I am not disputing that industrially they were at a colossal disadvantage, but they did hold large natural resource reserves that they were never able to utilize for a variety of reasons, some they could solve and some they couldn't.
>>28090913
resources in the ground are not resources that are usable.
Japan doesn't have much industry, but it also doesn't have the capital to extract and process the resources for the factories they don't have.
>>28090587
You could just put the medium carriers in the carrier battle group
>>28091786
why not just build a really big carrier isntead
>>28092252
because then you'll end up with another 10 billion dollar ship that the navy can't afford
>>28090913
It would take years if not decades to expand the industry to take advantage of the new resources. The issue was that Japanese industrial capacity was seriously lagging with no signs of catching up anytime soon.
>>28086014
To be fair, most of IJN leaders thought they couldn't win against the US. Admiral Yamamoto knew that an invasion against the west coast would be an utter disaster. "A gun behind every blade of grass" I believe is his quote.
But then the oil embargo kicked in and Japan was still in the middle with a war with China and given a choice between being conquered by the US and conquered by the Communists...
>>28092394
>"A gun behind every blade of grass" I believe is his quote.
It's a "quote" that someone made up later. Yamamoto was not such a retard as to think he could actually land on the West Coast, and that once he did that it would be some fuds with rifles that would cause problems.
>>28092394
China was not communist then you retard.
>>28092518
he's obviously talking about the soviets.
>>28092542
No he's obviously talking about US and China.
>>28092298
1 10 billion dollar ship to carry 90 planes or 2 7 billion dollar ships that carry 40 planes each.
A smaller carrier is not that much less expensive, the Brits are spending 5 billion a piece on their Queen Elizabeths, and those aren't even CATOBAR or nuclear, not to mention slow. One Ford is considerably more capable than 2 QE's, while costing the same.
>>28092394
Jesus fuck I think that's the most
>close, but still entirely wrong
post I've ever seen.
Both sides of the Japanese military were pushing for war. The Navy had their reservations, but they were hardly making any attempts to stop the drive to war. Yamomoto was no different. He (nor any other Japanese leaders) ever considered invading the US, but rather they were betting on a decisive victory over the USN giving them breathing room to quickly extend their borders and create a large enough zone of control across the Pacific so as to deter the US from retaliating. Both the IJA and IJN knew winning a war with the US was impossible, but they were betting on getting the same luck that won them their wars with China and Russia at the turn of the century.
The Japanese were by no means threatened with invasion until well after they decided to take on the entire world. Although they had gotten their shit slapped at Khalkhin Gol in 1939, the Soviets had no intentions of taking Manchuria, and by the time 1941 had rolled around they were too concerned with stopping the Germans to even consider opening a second front (something they managed to avoid through the entire war). America and the rest of the West also had no intentions of going to war with Japan. They were occupied with the war in Europe, and were hoping that economic pressure could convince Japan to stop invading everyone.
Japan only felt cornered because their national victim complex that had been building for the past century combined with their absurd sense of pride and their government's inability to control the military. The IJA got them stuck in China (and later Indochina) entirely on their own, and the government was too inept or prideful to reign them in. Rather than withdraw once the inevitable international condemnation came, they decided the only option was a war that they knew they couldn't win.
>>28092554
If he is than he's even more retarded than I expected. The Communists were not really a major power (at least compared to the KMT) at the time. Sure they were a nuisance, but they were even worse off than the KMT government that was holed up in Chungking.
The Soviets were the real communist threat.
>>28092676
Soviets were hanging on for dear life in 1941. They were not a threat to Japan any more than the CPP.
>>28092656
Why does a flat deck with some elevators and hangers need to cost billions?
>>28092660
Japan had the same mindset as Germany, basically they believed that the old school limited war was still possible and that they could hit quick, take something, and make a peace that would let them keep a part of their gains. They didn't expect unconditional surrender to be the new paradigm.
>>28092696
The Soviets still had a significant number of men in the Far East in 1941. Had push come to shove, they could have thoroughly fucked the Kwantung Army. The CPP was more concerned with consolidating their position for the inevitable postwar period than they were with decisively defeating the Japanese, so their activities were largely limited to guerrilla warfare. While it was a drain on resources, it was hardly an existential threat. Even the exiled KMT government was more of a threat militarily to the IJA.
>>28092696
Even in '45 they weren't much of a threat, as they really had no way to move their troops from the mainland to Japan without foreign transports and landing ships.
>>28092724
Japan had an even worse mindset than Germany. Take Nazi Germany's victim complex and ramp it up to 11, and then throw in the kind of delusional denial Hitler had at the end of the war and you'll get an idea of how the Japanese were thinking in 1941.
They were seriously convinced that the West was out to get them, and that all the condemnation over pillaging their way across East Asia was purely because the West was trying to keep them down. Even though the real cause of all their problems was the IJA more than anything else, they instead turned the blame on the rest of the world. And it's not like they didn't know they were fucked. The IJA and IJN commissioned several universities to do a wargame to see what would happen if they went to war, and they all found there was literally no chance of victory - even with the vaunted Decisive Battle doctrine. However, they pushed on, believing that, because things had gone well for them in the past despite the odds, they would continue to do so.
And then you had the complicit Japanese media. While the government was fairly reluctant to accept things like the occupation of Manchuria and the initial stages of the war in China, the media constantly got the populace hyped up over the latest inadvertent invasion to the point that it wasn't politically feasible to withdraw the troops.
Imagine something like the post-9/11 bloodlust you saw in America, only have it happen continuously for several years.
>>28086645
to be fair, the other options weren't much better. The US fleet was modeled on the British much like the Japanese was and about as big in the Pacific. According to the Washington Naval treaty the US would outweigh the IJN 5 to 3. Conventional battle was out of the question. Long term attrition was also not an option since the US had an economy maybe a hundred times that of Japan. Waiting would also make things worse. Much of the US fleet was off in the Atlantic and every week Yamamoto delayed meant another week for ships from the Altantic fleet to reinforce the Pacific.The US Admirals were also competent so Yamamoto couldn't count on them making a mistake before the advantage was insurmountable.
tl;dr: Yamamoto was in an impossible situation and simply wasn't Yi Soonshin
Really, Pearl Harbor was a desperate sucker punch, trying to knock out the Pacific fleet and force a peace settlement.
>>28092518
Not entirely but the Communist Party had started a civil war by the time the Japanese invaded,
>>28092660
>Both sides of the Japanese military were pushing for war. The Navy had their reservations, but they were hardly making any attempts to stop the drive to war. Yamomoto was no different.
Yeah, I should have been specific in that the IJN didn't think they could win a straight up fight to the death with the US.
There was also this undercurrent of fear that Japan would never be more than this tiny island nation that never amounts to anything and eventually gets eaten up by China or something.
>>28092676
According to Edwin Moise, the Communists seemed to have their shit together more than the nationalists.
>>28089855
>The Hornet was killed after 3 bombs and 2 torps
American warships next attempted to scuttle the stricken carrier, which absorbed nine torpedoes, many of which failed to explode, and more than 400 5-inch (130 mm) rounds from the destroyers Mustin and Anderson. The destroyers steamed away when a Japanese surface force entered the area. The Japanese destroyers Makigumo and Akigumo finally finished off Hornet with four 24-inch (610 mm) Long Lance torpedoes.
Damn ship was tough as hell.
>>28092703
Electromagnetic launch system, nuclear reactors, electronics, steel, Kevlar, furnishings...all that shit adds up.
>>28090210
You can conquer all the territory you want but exploiting and shipping is a whole different ball game. Japanese simply did not have the capability to do it to the needed level.
>>28086645
>Third, he attempted to fight thd US carriers on their own turf within range of US land based planes, and brought only half his available carrier numbers to the battle.
4 out of 4 is suddenly 'half' now?
>>28093128
American torpedoes were so shit that you couldn't even use them to scuttle boats.
>>28093205
That was 4 more than he had at the end of that battle.
>>28093128
You think that's impressive, check out the HMS Warspite. 150 penetrating hits and only 30 casualties. Most of them non-lethal. Goes through the entire Battle of Jutland and tries to ram a Sub it found on the way home.
What would have happened if Japan avoided a war with China and instead, they waited until Barbarossa to seize Siberia?
>>28093144
You don't need most of that shit, its not there to replace fleet carriers, but augment them.
>>28093236
..what is your point exactly?
>>28092880
>tl;dr: Yamamoto was in an impossible situation and simply wasn't Yi Soonshin
>tfw Yi Soon Shin in command of half a dozen destroyers and a minesweeper could probably beat the entire US Pacific fleet
I read a book by a Honda exec who said they came over here to sell their mopeds and were shocked by the development and industry of the states.
They said that they had no comprehension of it and that they couldn't believe they had try to go to war with us lol.
>>28093253
They tried fighting the USSR in 1939.
The results were why they attacked the Western powers and not the Soviets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol
>>28093205
4 out of the 10 aircraft carriers available to Japan at the time (4 of the 6 full size carriers though).
>>28093268
He put his balls on the table and got them shot off for it. Thankfully for him he's Asian so he probably didn't notice them missing.
>>28093291
But that was before Nazis German laid waste to the Soviet.
Surely, Stalin can't afford to spare men and tanks to fight in Siberia when the city named after him is threatened ?
>>28093263
Those launch rails actually are a requirement. There's a huge difference between what one with them and without them can accomplish.
>>28093246
Yes, i know about the Warspite and other heavily damaged ships such as the Seydlitz. Thing is that they were meant to go into harms way and were by design not as vulnerable as an aircraft carrier.
>>28093274
Yi Soon-Shin
Fought impossible odds.
Never lost a battle, never lost a ship
>>28093253
They'd have been more fucked than they were even at Khalkhin Gol. It's absurd how far behind the IJA was in 1939, and they didn't really improve all that much by 1941.
For reference, at Khalkin Gol, the Soviets were working from a railhead that was a four-day drive away, while the IJA had a railhead less than 100 miles away. Even with that, the Soviets managed to stall the Japanese advance and bury them in artillery, armor, and men. The armored cars and tanks of the Red Army in 1939 far outpaced anything the IJA had in 1941 (for reference, eight or so armored cars held off an entire company's worth of IJA tanks at Khalkhin Gol).
IJAAF aircraft were already reaching the end of their effectiveness in 1939, and even the horribly underperforming modern fighters the VVS had in 1941 outpaced the Ki-27s that formed the bulk of the IJAAF fighter corps.
Worst of all was the IJA's artillery. Their pieces were outdated and outranged by nearly everything the Soviets were fielding, and even with significantly fewer pieces available they still lacked the logistics to sustain bombardments for as long as the Soviets could. Pretty hilariously, they still seriously used observation balloons for their artillery. Again using Khalkin Gol as a reference, the IJA was pretty much buried in artillery barrages that far exceeded anything they could muster in volume of fire, accuracy, range, and duration.
>>28093323
Nope. The Far East Forces stayed where they were for most of the war, and even with their depleted numbers and low priority for modernization they still were far beyond anything the Japanese could hope to beat.
>>28088304
>>28088354
>>28088454
>>28088583
>What is inflation?
>What are development costs?
Remember that the equipment on those new ships is a generation (or two) more advanced than the stuff on the old ships, at a time when the dollar buys less. Try correcting for inflation, then see how much the ships cost.
>>28092880
The US fleet was actually its own beast. They had very few fleet scouting assets for the battle line, and their carrier operations for the entirety of the interwar period tended to focus on division level carrior operations (2 ships).
The Japanese fleet had far more light ships to act as eyes and ears for the main battle fleet, as well as more and larger submarines, and in addition were the best in the world at large scale carrier strikes.
In a battle of production, yes the US will win. The Japanese attempted to avoid that by winning enough victories that the US would deem the effort not worth the reward. Where they went wrong was as said above. They attacked the premier Pacific naval base where they could only knock the ships out of action for 6 months to a year, could not count on large loss of life among the US's trained sailors, and could not count on the biggest threat (carriers) being in port. This blunder is square on Yamamoto, who threatened to resign if the Pearl Harbor operation was not approved. I realize he was faced with difficult choices, but he could not have picked a target that would have better guaranteed a fight to the death for Japan.
>>28093205
Only one fleet carrier was damaged at Coral Sea, with minimal losses to its air group. The other carrier was unscathed, but had its air group mauled. Japanese air groups had been merged on the eve of battle before without issue, and this would have given them their 5th fleet carrier for the operation.
In addition, they sent 2 light carriers on the fools errand to the aleutians and left one with Yamamoto's battle fleet 600 miles from the Japanese carrier fleet at Midway. These are extra flight decks capable of providing CAP, and also providing scouting assets (which the Japanese sorely needed) or extra aircraft for strikes on enemy ships.
>>28093303
8 total were available IIRC, and 7 of those were assigned to MI or AL.
>>28093472
By my count at the beginning of June 1942 Japan had 17 carriers.
1 experimental/light (Hōshō)
8 light (Ryūjō, Shin'yō, Kaiyō, Zuihō, Un'yō, Chūyō, Taiyō, Akitsu Maru)
8 full size (Kaga, Akagi, Sōryū, Hiryū, Shōkaku, Zuikaku, Jun'yō, Hiyō)
Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu were part of the Midway invasion and were all sunk. Jun'yō and Ryūjō were assigned to the Aleutian Islands mission.
>>28093472
>fools errand to the aleutians
that's a statement benefiting from hindsight
the japanese distribution of forces looks acceptable when seen from their perspective
(i.e. not knowing about the american intelligence coupe)
>>28093698
The Taiyo class were too slow to keep up with the fleet. Even Junyou (which is a light carrier, not a full sized carrier) is pushing it, as she was capable of only 25.5 knots. Kaga, the slowest fleet carrier, was capable of 28. Ryujo and Zuiho both had the speed to keep up and were present for MI or AL. Akitsu Maru, likewise, did not have the speed to keep up even with Junyou.
>>28093765
It's not hindsight. The islands have nothing of value, the weather is terrible, and does not provide a good base to launch attacks on US pacific bases or the mainland. The intelligence coup doesn't even come into it, because AL was a completely separate operation from Midway. It was an operation the IJA insisted on, and got, otherwise they would not provide the troops for the IJN to land at Midway.
>>28093840
>google images the ships you mentioned to get a quick idea of what you're talking about
>half the results are chinese cartoon grills
Goddammit Japan.
>>28093840
>AL was a completely separate operation from Midway
it wasn't
it was an attempted feint to complement midway
>>28093900
Please read Shattered Sword and educate yourself. Parshall and Tully spent far too much time setting the Midway record straight for it to be ignored by people who learned everything from History Channel and Lord's Incredible Victory. There is absolutely no reason to feint for the Aleutians when you want the US to send their fleet to Midway so you can sink it.
>>28093878
The game (and now anime) Kantai Collection turned pretty much every ship in the IJN into a cute shipgirl doing cute shipgirl things. It used to be an RNG-based browser-game aimed at IJN-focused rivet-counters and other such otaku. Then someone bitched about the RNG on Twitter, and now it's gone viral.
>>28093840
there is hindsight factoring into the criticisms directed at the japanese order of battle at midway
as far as the japs knew, the US had 2 CVs available and that they will NOT be at midway when it's invaded
and for the size and of the installation, the japanese brought more than enough ships and troops for a succesful invasion
the whole shtick about drawing the carrier fleet for a decisive engagement was supposed to happen after the capture of midway where it can be used as a stop for planes from Guam who will provide additional firepower against the US fleet(whose approach was supposed to be sighted well in advance by a picket of subs)
this is where the US intel put a wrench in the works
>>28094988
2:1 is not what any sane commander would call a safe margin, especially given that it doesn't factor in Midway's large number of aircraft. Even the idea of taking the islands was absurd, because at that point in time Japan had no specialized equipment naval landing ships or equipment. They had no doctrine for it, and they had no doctrine for fire support from the supporting ships. The army troops they would try to land would have been stuck on a coral reef two hundred yards from shore and either shot or drowned. No handy beaches like Wake Island. Even if by some miracle they did take Midway, they would have to abandon it within months simply because of its position. It was not an island they could expect to keep and supply, and the price they would pay just to evict the Americans would not be worth it.
You should go and read up on the actual planning for the Midway operation. To say the plans had major, unnecessary flaws is a huge understatement, and Yamamoto demonstrated incredibly childish and negligent behavior to get the green light for it.
>>28093472
>Only one fleet carrier was damaged at Coral Sea, with minimal losses to its air group. The other carrier was unscathed, but had its air group mauled. Japanese air groups had been merged on the eve of battle before without issue, and this would have given them their 5th fleet carrier for the operation.
The Zuikaku was unavailable according to Japanese doctrine. The eve of a major battle was not the right time to try to improvise a new doctrine.
>In addition, they sent 2 light carriers on the fools errand to the aleutians and left one with Yamamoto's battle fleet 600 miles from the Japanese carrier fleet at Midway. These are extra flight decks capable of providing CAP, and also providing scouting assets (which the Japanese sorely needed) or extra aircraft for strikes on enemy ships.
Their light carriers were unstable and slow. They did not have the doctrine to work them into the carrier group. They could not have provided much in the way of CAP as the Japanese lacked radar and CIC/ fighter direction. They already had 30 fighters flying around aimlessly. Saturating the area with more would not have been more effective.
They believed, based on the best information they had, that they would fight barely defended Midway then fight 2 carriers a day or two later. It would have been moronic to drag all their shitty carriers along, contrary to established doctrine which had worked for them to that point. Their failure at Midway was in intelligence; it wasn't not bringing enough carriers along.
>>28093974
When did the Shattered Sword meme start? It's a non-peer reviewed research by a couple of computer programmers who cobbled together some memes they heard on internet forums. That book is literally garbage. It is so full of holes and factual errors that it wouldn't even be acceptable as an undergraduate thesis.
>>28093840
The Hiyou class CVs were designated fleet carriers, and weren't labeled as CVLs at any point in the war.
>>28094988
Their ability to take Midway is completely questionable considering the Japanese military's botched attempts at capturing a even less defended Wake Island.
>>28096619
Japanese military, as comically bad as they were, overcame Wake pretty easily with the help of Hiryu and Soryu. They would not have botched Midway with the help of 4 fleet carriers had Midway not been fortified to meet them.
>>28086150
>Most of the IJN's battleships were built by the British.
Not true, of those serving in WW2 only Kongo was.
>>28096810
>Kongo class
>Fuso class
>Ise class
Were all made in British shipyards, IIRC. Granted they were all obsolete, but they made up a significant portion of the IJN's battleships.
>>28096850
Only the Kongo was made in British shipyard. The rest were built by the Japs.
>>28096810
Kongo dess~
>>28096631
> defended by 450 marines and 12 planes
> invade with 5 times as much infantry, 2 carriers, 5 cruisers, and 8 destroyers
> manage to lose one destroyer to 5 inch guns, another to 100 pd bomb.
> starve defenders out after 16 days, kill half of them after surrender out of shame at own shamefur dispray
and people think the nips can take midway.
>>28096594
And Yorktown was 'unavailable' for the Americans, but they made it available and sent it out to Midway with civilian work crews still on it. There is absolutely no sound reason not to send Zuikaku, given that nobody expected two American fleet carriers to turn up at Coral Sea, and those carriers and their aircraft fought far better than any opponent the Japanese had faced before. An better solution would have been to postpone the operation until Zuikaku's air groups were rebuilt and Shokaku repaired, seeing as the big push on the timetable was the Aleutian invasion that should never have been approved to begin with.
Point taken for Hiyou, as she was the slowest of the ones present and would have been quickly left behind once the battle began. That being said, you're missing the point. Zuiho and Ryujo are capable of providing CAP aircraft and taking that burden off at least two of the fleet carriers. This allows those carriers to have their flight decks cleared to spot the strike on the American carriers. This does not require a new doctrine or a change to an existing one. You are simply replacing two fleet carriers with two light ones, and given Japanese experience coordinating fleets of up to 6 carriers this would have posed no problem.
They believed in their own superiority, not in the USA's weakness. They expected a maximum of 3 carriers defending Midway, two Yorktown and possibly the lone Wasp class. For some odd reason, they expected Midway to be identical to Wake Island's defences, despite that it was 6 months later into the war and completely ignoring the high price they payed for Wake and the difficulty of landing their troops even with no natural barriers to the beach. Midway was a completely different beast, but Japanese planning didn't change to fit it.
One of the Midway failures was intelligence, but this failure could have been mitigated by proper planning. They planned for the best case, wargamed the best case, and called it a day.
>>28092656
>5 billion a piece on their Queen Elizabeths
no, it's more like £5 billion for the whole programme, which includes a £1bn delay put in by Labour in 2009 to make the incoming Tory government look bad (srs).
It also includes stuff like improving dock facilities to be able to handle the ships. The vessels themselves were fairly cheap.
>slow
They cruise at 25kn while apparently being capable of far more. The RN tends to lowball its ships' speeds.
>>28097425
> given that nobody expected two American fleet carriers to turn up at Coral Sea, and those carriers and their aircraft fought far better than any opponent the Japanese had faced before
Armies and navies get surprised all the time. That doesn't mean you send your entire force in one big bunch just in case a larger force may turn up. You work with the best intelligence you have. Sending your scrub carriers and changing your doctrine just in case something bad might happen is just not a very rational way to do things.
>Zuiho and Ryujo are capable of providing CAP aircraft and taking that burden off at least two of the fleet carriers.
Zuiho and Ryujo were never used for major fleet operations before or after Midway except as decoys, and for a reason. They were not capable of it within the boundaries of IJN doctrine at the time. They would have been even more vulnerable than the Jap-cookers that were IJN fleet carriers, and risking them in a fleet action they thought they would have an overwhelming advantage in, simply did not make sense. Yes, in hindsight maybe you could have overhauled IJN doctrine, practice, and engineering to make those light carriers better and available. But what exactly are you trying to say at that point? There were many things all sides could've done better. Overhauling your doctrine on the fly based on clairvoyance was not one of them.
>>28097614
You keep missing that instead of learning from those surprises, they went full steam ahead without changing their plans. Their original plans called for all 6 carriers in the Midway battle fleet. This did not happen because Zuikaku and Shokaku got mauled in Coral Sea. So instead of doing the smart thing and replacing them with Zuiho and Ryujo (which required no change in doctrine, because in practive both were fast enough to keep up with the rest of the carriers), they said 'It's fine we'll win regardless, we're superior.' Best case, they would have postponed Midway until their original planned strike force was available again, and never invade the aleutians at all since it drove the June timetable they operated on.
>Overhauling your doctrine on the fly based on clairvoyance was not one of them.
They knew for a fact that two American carriers would be the minimum they would face, with a worst case scenario of 3. They planned to bring all 6 of their largest fleet carriers to ensure superiority in numbers against the combined Midway garrison and 3 enemy carriers.
They knew for a fact from Coral Sea that the American air groups were better quality opponents than anyone they had faced to that point, that the US carriers were being employed aggressively, and would come out to play when challenged.
They knew for a fact from Wake Island that their ability to land troops even on poorly defended islands was not good, and the idea that the US would not fortify its most extended outpost and most likely base to be attacked is laughable. They knew about Midway's geography, and planned to have about 80 landing craft ferry troops to the reef edge, transfer them into rubber rafts, and have them row the rest of the way to the beach, in broad daylight.
Yamamoto's planning for Midway ignored all of these setbacks, and went ahead with a fundamentally flawed battle plan without the forces he believed necessary to execute it.
>>28097772
>Coral Sea
In a 2v2 battle, nips were able to land coordinate strikes on both USN carriers using the weakest carrier division of the KB. That's what they knew for a fact. 4 vs. 3 engagement with both sides launching strikes would've ended in all 3 USN carriers lost at Midway. As it was, the tattered remnants of the Hiryu sank one carrier, and would've sanked another if they had located the other task force instead of mistaking the Yorktown for it.
>>28097772
>Zuiho and Ryujo (which required no change in doctrine, because in practive both were fast enough to keep up with the rest of the carriers
Zuiho and Ryujo were not one of their main carrier divisions. They had not exercised with the KB, their crews and pilots did not have the same level of training, and they didn't even carry the latest aircraft. Their range was also 20% less than KB carriers, they were more fragile, and less seaworthy. There is far more to a boat than looking up the knots on wikipedia.
>>28097878
Coordinated strikes that wrecked one's fllight deck and left the other dead in the water. Meanwhile, the air group that hit hit Shoho (53 dive bombers and 22 torpedo bombers) would have easily destroyed both Shokaku and Zuikaku had they found them. The dive bomber strikes that left Shokaku in the yards for Midway was less than half that number because only four of Lexington's divebombers found targets due to the cloud cover, and only two out of the entire American strike attempted to hit Zuikaku.
The strike that managed to sink Lexington was half strength due to aircraft losses on the first day of the battle, and succeeded in making the strike in large part because Lexington's radar directed the CAP to too low of an altitude to intercept the Japanese bombers.
The Japanese came off from Coral Sea with only one carrier damaged solely because of weather and the US mistaking Shoho for a fleet carrier on the first day. Planning that relies on luck is poor planning, and the '4 on 3' completely ignores Midway's air complement and even assuming everything had gone to plan, ignores the losses the Japanese carriers would take bombing Midway into submission for a fruitless landing attempt.
>>28097911
Zuiho and Ryujo both carried the same aircraft as the main fleet during MI/AL. Both carried A6M2 fighters, and B5N2 torpedo bombers, and in addition to those Zuiho carried several older A5Ms. No dive bombers were carried because of size constraints, but that hardly matters when all you need are flight decks to rearm and refuel fighters so the bigger carriers can get on with sinking the enemy carriers.
Range was a nonissue, as the Japanese had brought multiple oilers with them to the fight and both Zuiho and Ryujo were present for Midway and the Aleutians respectively.
Their air complement were just as well trained as those in the main fleet, as all of them came from the same pool of prewar naval aviators, and Ryujo's complement did have combat experience from Japan's expansion in southeast Asia.
They are no more vulnerable than Japan's fleet carriers, because as reality showed all it took was one bomb hit to put one out of action. They were no less seaworthy, else Ryujo would not have been sent deal with the Aleutians terrible weather and Zuiho covering the, by your argument, far more seaworthy battleship fleet. An additional upside is that they would be two more targets for the Americans, causing them either to dilute their strike against more targets or creating the possibility of losing a light carrier but saving a fleet carrier hidden by cloud cover. Bringing them along would not have hurt the Japanese at all, and would have had tremendous upsides.
>>28098133
>they both carried the same aircraft
>except they carried A5Ms
>range was nonissue
>because logistics don't matter and fueling wouldnt have taken time
>>28098221
>the necessary logistical support was present
>only one Zuiho carried a few A5Ms, but most of her complement was A6M2s and B5Ns
>Ryujo carried A6M2s and B5Ns
reading comprehension motherfucker
>>28093323
>when the city named after him is threatened ?
>Huge city on the Volga river, the most important supply arteria on the whole East European Plain
>HURR VATNIKS WERE DEFENDING THE CITY CUZ OF STALIN NAME DURR
This is what ignorant dumbfuckistanian burgershit amerilards are actually taught in schools.
>>28097519
70,000 ton ships do not make over 25 knots if they only have 70,000 SHP total. COGAD means that her cruising is done on only 14,000 SHP or so, making it unlikely that the QE's can cruise at above 18 knots.
