How realistic is marital arts training in the military?
Is it useful and something you could apply in a real life situation, or is it bullshit?
>>28075896
It's useful. It's just bare bones grappling shit. Most hand to hand fights end up on the ground.
>>28075896
>marital arts
I don't think the military teaches that kind of thing. At best you'll get a lesson in lubing your bolt.
The hand-to-hand training I got all seemed pretty practical.
There were two types. Bayonet training, which even without having a bayonet attached is still applicable to hand to hand fighting using a rifle. A muzzle thump to somebody's face is still a good hit.
And the second type was 3 levels of combatives training, which basically boiled down to getting your opponent on the ground as quickly as possible, bewing on top of them, and punching their face into the dirt.
>>28075926
pretty much this
training has been for use of weapons. if enemy is in melee range strike or push them back then shoot, or draw sidearm and shoot, or pull knife and stab
without weapon it was to disable/kill as quickly as possible
with soldiers roles being expanded beyond just killing the enemy they're teaching holds and shit to control a tango
>>28075896
army combatives is like basic mma/bjj shit and weapons retention for the most part. it seems like it could be pretty legit since you basically just have to survive until your budys get there anyway. the marine shit looks way more in depth (knife nd bayonet fighting etc) and they drilled that shit almost everyday on deployment.
>>28075974
You haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about. Stop.
Also, a related question:
how high is the probability that a soldier will ever have to use hand-to-hand combat?
>>28076059
Fairly low, but there have been several reported instances, much like NBC attacks.
>>28076059
>how high is the probability that a soldier will ever have to use hand-to-hand combat?
They're much more likely to think they're hot shit because MUH TRAINING while drunk at the bar and get their ass handed to them.
I went up to green belt in MCMAP. There's quite a bit of control/nonlethal type stuff, some of it is retarded and some of it is fairly practical. There are a couple alright throws, and it teaches basic strikes. The most beneficial thing is that grappling and sparring are part of the curriculum, which is the best way to train.
>>28076023
protip: you can't prove me wrong
>>28076059
I know two guys who have been in actual hand to hand. One is an SF medic and the other is a Ranger. Both basically pointed out that in their situations the physical wellness was such a one-sided thing it didn't really matter.
The Medic tackled and subdued, the Ranger actually used his fucking Tomahawk because he's fucking nuts.
>>28075896
So the Army's Combative's program pretty much has a disclaimer at the very start- the guy who has friends show up first or gets his hand on a weapon first wins. There's no badass kung fu flip move that will do otherwise. It's designed for you to be in full retard kit and still at least fight.
Second, Level One Combatives is learning just enough to get your ass handed to you in a bar. Most soldiers don't do more than a few level one classes. I'm basically stuck at level 2 because of my job because I'm in logistics and honestly I don't need level 3.
Third, the program is also changing all the time, and is pretty flexible so you ought to keep that in mind as well.
>>28076146
Protip - You're not in the military.
The whole purpose of this shit is to stay alive until a buddy can roll up and cap the guy you're fighting. Nothing more.
>tango
>sidearm
>>28076173
>choosing a words on purpose to rustle your jimmies
>not using a weapon you have and just stalling for time for help to arrive
enjoy your purple heart
I never understand why the corps replaced LINE with MCMAP. From my experience, I think LINE is more simplified and easier for the grunts to understand and the instructor to teach.
Also, martial arts in military is not about some ultra secretive ninja move, it's about teaching a soldiers a crash course of martial arts, to squeeze 3 years of training (average time recommended for a white belt student to progress all the way to 1 dan black belt) into 3 months.
So no kata, no bullshit self defence moves, no fancy techniques. Just 4 boxing punches, 3 karate kicks (front, roundhouse, side kick) and that over the shoulder judo throw. You practiced that shit over and over and over again.
Wrestling is your best bet.
>>28075896
It would be useful but usually it just turns into guys getting buddies who are instructors to pencil it in for em so they can rank up in belts and look good on promotion boards.
Seriously, I saw a guy go up 2 belt ranks in 2 weeks.
So, he somehow managed to complete 185 hours of training and PT in that time?
Fuck no. He was bros with the instructor.
If it was trained as intended it would be legit, but it usually isnt.
>>28076412
I always kinda felt all that stance and form bullshit was just a scam to get you to pay for more lessons.
Nowhere outside of a dojo or a tournament have I went "aw gee, if that guys leg had been 1/8th of an inch inward he woulda won that fight"
Like I enjoyed the kenpo classes I took for 6 months as an elective in college, but all the bullshit about "oh your feet are 1mm too far apart" didnt seem like it applied to an actual fight.
>>28075896
>How realistic is marital arts training in the military?
Very.
Its basically just
>Push rifle barrel in to face
>Ram stock in to face
>Slam rail in to face
>Stab in neck and everywhere else
>Kick in the balls
>Knee in the balls
>Punch in the face
Its very basic and developed to be as close to natural reflexes as possible.
Unless you are a slav. Then its all about smashing burning cinder blocks with you hands and throwing shovels mid air upside down.
>>28077289
This.
Mcmap isnt about "perfect tiger descending hammer" type shit that eastern martial arts are about, its just down and dirty street fighting versions of stuff found in most martial arts, modified to be done while wearing gear.
>>28077224
Basics, mang. Once you got that shit right, everything else is gonna be natural for you.
Funakoshi himself said not to be bothered too much on the mechanics, but the principle of the technique in the first place
>>28076173
Filthy civ here.
What's wrong with using the word "sidearm"
>>28077353
Nothing but grunts aren't issued any
>>28077382
So who is? Pogs or officers?
>>28077289
it looks like a clip they are doing for news also he sliped and why isn't the guy on the left not get shot by his friend by the guy in the right
>>28077390
Officers almost exclusively
>>28077400
Officers plus E-7s and above. Possibly heavy weapon crews.
>>28077400
>was grunt in the PGW
>issue beat to shit beretta
>go to use once
>jammed after 2nd round
Wouldve been better off without one and just more ammo
>>28077332
Yeah well my instructor was an egotistical asshole who hit us with a stick while we shuffled between foot positions for hours and barely taught anything else except to his little clique of kiss asses and was obsessed with being called sifu.
But im pretty sure it wasnt even real kenpo, just some mcdojo bullshit.
Also something I see ALL THE FUCKING TIME from various martial arts schools
>oh cool, a fight!
>guy assumes martial arts stance "im a black belt in (some bullshit)"
>"aw yeah, well im a drunk redneck and immah whoop dat ass boy"
>wartial arts guy does flurry of fancy lookin stuff to redneck
>its not very effective
>redneck uses "bearhug and drop him on his goddamned head" technique
>its super effective
>redneck uses "commence to kickin the shit outta ya wif muh werkboots"
>martial arts fag has fainted!
Like I recognize martial arts fag has technique training, and it looked decent, but its clear hes never actually sparred in his entire life because he just got fucked up by the adult version of playground scuffling by a guy with a beer gut who thinks "truth" is spelled with an F.
>>28077400
I'm sorry for all the dumb questions. Grunts don't get sidearms even if they're doing a patrol and may be engaged in combat? What about dudes like CCTs?
Maybe I play too my battlefield.
>>28076166
>his fucking Tomahawk
WITNESSED
Military combatives are useful. But very predictable and always follow a set formula
>>28077444
Nope rifles are superior to handguns and that's why they are not typically issued for people that see combat they are better off carrying more rounds for their rifle as >>28077431 said.
>The Medic tackled and subdued, the Ranger actually used his fucking Tomahawk because he's fucking nuts
>>28076166
>grunts no sidearms
MP MASTER RACE
>>28077420
E-7s and above are officers. Just non commissioned officers as you probably already know.
>>28077520
Of course MPs need side arms, everyone wants to kill them.
>>28077400
>Officers almost exclusively
lol, america.
What about the guys carrying the saw and other support weapons? I could kinda see why you wouldn't issuing it to riflemen because 9/10 times clearing a jam is faster or about as fast as deploying a side arm but for a SAW gunner its not that simple.
There are two types of people who get through military basic hand to hand training: people who realize that what they've just been taught is juuuuuust enough to get themselves into trouble against someone who knows what they're doing, and people who think that they're hot shit after learning the equivalent of white belt karate.
I can't speak on the more advanced stuff, but the quality is probably much better.
>>28077444
Bro, I was a machinegunner dragging a 240 and a hundred pounds of ammo and other gear.
Our secondary weapon was an M4. There were 9 berettas for our whole company, the officers grabbed up most of em so they could sit in the truck that was on overwatch (officers are the worst gearqueers cuz they can always hitch a ride or make somebody else carry shit)
The rest were snatched up by staff NCOs so they wouldnt have to go through the horrible burden of, gasp! CARRYING A RIFLE AROUND ON THE FOB!
We had a deployment commemorative pistol deal where a company would manufacture and engrave our unit stuff on a 1911 at material cost.
Nope. Officers wanted subcompact .380's cuz theyre faggots. We refused to buy any and the unit deal disappeared so the officers all had to pay full price and bitched about it endlessly.
>>28077432
Actually it's probably the sparring that did him in. Sparring doesn't give someone a realistic idea of what a fight will be like. There are rules to sparring and most of it is point based so there isn't a lot of focus on power...
>>28076023
Settle down Big Boss, we're just teaching the basics to idiots who are going out in the field, idiots with guns and a lot of range. If it comes down to it, it's easier to remember the basics. Get into more of that fancy shit once into special operational forces
>>28077501
>>28077560
Thanks for the responses guys. Genuine curiosity.
Unless you are in an infantry unit that really spends some time training it, or some sort of operator. You won't train enough for even the bare bones shit they teach to be of any use.
hand to hand combat is a muscle memory skill set. You just can't run people through a few hours a rudimentary training every quarter and expect any good results in practical application.
>>28077501
Had my glock on me constantly for two deployments. Never used it.
>>28076059
I used mine in Fallujah.
>>28077615
Your comment holds true.
>>28077669
I want to believe you. Tell us the story.
>>28077669
>>28077701
Yeah, tell us wud habened plox
i was reading my dads old FDF "soldiers manual" or whatever
the chapter about hand-to-hand combat was pretty neat
>when you look death in the eyes your will to live will surpass your training and you WILL BE ABLE TO KILL THAT SUBHUMAN RUSSIAN FILTH WITH YOUR BARE HANDS
>try also using your entrenching tool, it's good for fighting too!
>>28077560
>Bro, I was a machinegunner dragging a 240 and a hundred pounds of ammo and other gear.
>Our secondary weapon was an M4.
That is great example of extremely bad leadership. And from what i heard it seems to be pretty standard in the US armed forces.
What the fuck would be the point in carrying a m4 as a secondary? Real life isn't a video game and changing weapons actually takes time. Better to carry an extra 100 belt then a fucking spare rifle.
Thank god i am not an american.
>>28077778
Yeah. Its what happens when a guy who was a frat bro studying physical education 18 months ago ends up in charge of 40 guys and every aspect of thier lives.
There are a lot of good officers, ours just werent.
>>28075896
It can be useful. It is also a form of PT.
>>28077701
>>28077744
It's really not that interesting.
I was the second man through the door, got tackled by a haji, and had to wrestle him for a couple seconds until someone else pulled him off of me.
Why he decided to tackle me instead of shooting me is anyone's guess, but haji's stupid and probably thought he'd get some quran cred by wrestling a muhreen.
>>28077560
>Officers wanted subcompact .380
all the collective why's in my body.
Are they carrying conceal or some shit? Why not just a subcompact 9 at least? The recoil isnt that much worse.
>>28078110
>quran cred by wrestling a muhreen.
>>28078110
>quran cred
kek
>>28078110
>I was the second man through the door, got tackled by a haji, and had to wrestle him for a couple seconds until someone else pulled him off of me.
So did you capture him or did he die?
>>28078138
Why would white upper-middle class college boys who listen to death row records music and talk to eachother like ghetto trash because they think its funny want .380 subcompact ghetto blasters?
Gee. No clue.
It pissed us off though. Im no fudd, but you just dont buy poly guns, especially subcompacts, as commemorative pistols.
You get a 1911 or a hipower, you engrave that shit, and you keep it as a trophy.
Speaking of trophies, if I told you the story of what they did to the 2 SVD's I captured youd shit your pants.
>>28075896
realistic? sure. cause it's almost nonexistent.
just as grappling is almost nonexistent in war.
>>28078217
Fucking this.
BJJ is literally useless when more than one combatant is involved or there's the potential for concealed weapons. God knows why the military has a hard on for it.
>>28078211
>Speaking of trophies, if I told you the story of what they did to the 2 SVD's I captured youd shit your pants.
No please, go on.
>>28078217
OP actually didn't specify what military he meant.
>>28078294
and it doesn't really matter.
>>28078281
Well I found em stuffed in a haystack.
One was a khyber pass knockoff in shitty condition, the other was a true soviet piece in great condition.
>take this one down to de-mil, the other one is going in the unit museum
>but thats the good one sir
>no, its one of those cyber path copies, the older one is real soviet dumbass. Why would an old ass soviet rifle look new unless it was a copy
>sir, I am telling you, the russians still use the SVD, and it looks newer because its real
>okay dumbass, why would a WW2 commie gun look new unless it was fake, fucking do it.
>there cannot possibly be this much concentrated stupid inside 1 human being. And hes my commander.
>go to demil and watch them cut the rifle into 4 pieces, barrel and all
>well there goes a gun worth 6 months of my salary
>shitty khyber pass clone has rod welded in the bore and still sits in the unit museum today as a "genuine soviet SVD"
>>28075896
yes
Imagine a disarmed high ranking tali is running away
I've embarrassed a lot of college kids with my basic MCMAP training. It's almost shocking to me that this is possible.
>>28078341
>>no, its one of those cyber path copies,
Did he actually say it like that? God damn, what a retard.
>>go to demil and watch them cut the rifle into 4 pieces, barrel and all
>>well there goes a gun worth 6 months of my salary
>>shitty khyber pass clone has rod welded in the bore and still sits in the unit museum today as a "genuine soviet SVD"
mfw
>>28078341
Why didn't you point out the Soviet markings on the real one? Fuck sakes...
>>28078256
>God knows why the military has a hard on for it
Because of emplaced positions and the possibility of being overrun. It's a very 1950's concept, but emplaced positions being overrun will always be a threat, even in urban warfare.
>>28078374
I did a year of shitty Japanese Juijitsu, not even BJJ with barely any rolling and I still clown on anyone without training
people just suck without being taught I think
>>28077224
The idea is to force the techniques into your muscle memory.
Just because McDojos and belt factories don't do anything but kata does not mean its useless.
>>28078341
You know, I'm not worried about about anything in the military other than incompetent fucking officers.
I ready know they will be the bane of my fucking existence.
>>28078397
>Why didn't you point out the Soviet markings on the real one? Fuck sakes...
i guess the retard would just go
>well ofc they gonna copy the markings retard
Why did the did the US demill iraqi weapons anyway? Why not use them to outfit the new Iraqi army?
>>28076412
Ehhhh, I'd say 3 years minimum.
>>28078385
Literally said "cyber path"
>>28078397
You military? You ever try arguing with a superior?
Honestly thats not even close to the most expensive thing I have destroyed.
I dropped a thermite grenade into a 5 gallon bucket of refined opium paste that was at the halfway point to becoming heroin.
>>28077432
Well that is why any martial art that does not to full contact sparring with as much realism as possible is probably shit.
Like most karate places. Whereas in Judo for example the only difference between sparring and 'real life' is that you drop your sparring partner onto a mat instead of concrete.
>>28078438
But then you point out the Khyber Piss one -doesn't- have the marks. Because those guys don't give a fuck about arsenal stamps.
>>28078438
I would credit it to Captain America syndrome.
Thinking they're super soldiers for "denying the enemy supplies"
>>28077554
>>28077588
i was a line medic for an infantry company, they gave M9s to the medics and the 240 gunners, and some of the E7s and officers got them too.
>>28078180
Captured. Sent him back on three humvee that brought us ammo and water.
Pic related
SFC Tim Kennedy, currently active in the UFC and currently active in the U.S. Army's Special Forces.
>>28078516
Good for you, you won the "competent leadership" lottery.
>>28075926
>muzzle thump to face is good hit
If your gun is that close to their face why not just pull the trigger
>>28078437
It's ok, the officers don't actually run the military, they just tell the NCOs what they want done, and the NCOs do all the work.
Senior NCOs, the infantry ones, at least, are usually the smartest people in a battalion when it comes to military stuff.
>>28075896
>marital arts
You mean engaging in sham marriages for the sake of lording over the single dudes in your unit and using it to get out of work?
>>28078710
>If your gun is that close to their face why not just pull the trigger
If bangstick jams bangstick is club
>>28078408
of course not.
belts and katas are really useful for trainers to earn money through belt tests
>>28078876
troo
>>28078704
competent company leadership maybe, i won't vouch for higher
I just left a job where I worked with a muhreen who went on and on about how he was a MCMAP instructor.
>yeah brah I was an instructor
>yeah brah I was the first lance cpl to make instructor EVAR
>my class was like BUDS brah
>only 1 in 10 people passed it
>used to make extra money charging guys for lessons lol
like this guy would occasionally say something that seemed somewhat legit, but he's immediately ruin it by saying the dumbest shit. like when he gets in bar fights he is legally obligated to explain what a badass he is. he has to register his hands as deadly weapons. he can't tell anyone what he knows or the marine corps will sue him. yeah if the SHTF I don't need a team, I work better on my own. yeah I've got a 1911, you know just your average 9mm.
>>28078903
Stop being retarded, kata serves an actual purpose and anybody who actually does martial arts knows that.
>>28075896
>Is it useful and something you could apply in a real life situation
yes, otherwise they won't teach it.
why do you ask retarded questions, anon?
