wikileaks
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
I know this happened a long time ago, but I have just learnt this. Having been aware of this situation for a long time, following it, and even researching/discussing it as part of university projects. Never once have I seen reported or heard mentioned one crucial factor about this situation. The situation being Julian Assange and wikileaks leaking classified documents from the Iraq war, with footage in particular showing US military shooting a group of Iraqi men who were on foot, from a helicopter. What is left out of the coverage of this leak, is that the two main targets (assumed to be carrying weapons) were actually Reuters correspondents with CAMERAS not WEAPONS. 10+ Men were murdered in this incident:
https://cpj.org/killed/2007/namir-noor-eldeen.php
What I'm struggling with the most, is what separates the US from the Israeli military shooting, beating and harming aid workers and journalists, or the ISIS fighters beheading members of the press and using the footage to scaremonger the world. Who are the good guys these days?
Don't wander around a war zone and expect not to get shot at...
>>27908687
This. Now run along to submit your project
>>27908674
Nothing really separates the US federal government from the Israeli federal government in morality, hell you could even say that the Israeli government takes more actions to directly benefit their citizens than the US Fed does. Good Guys and Bad Guys have always been subjective concepts used primarily for propaganda and justifying actions that are things that would be more associated with "Bad Guys".
It's just annoying that the media perpetrate Israel and ISIS for such actions resulting in the murder or innocent people such as cameramen, but yet US are allowed to avoid it. To not address this fact seems too unjust!
>>27908738
Israel is never criticized in the media.
>>27908674
>Who are the good guys these days?
Ever heard of moral relativism ?
>what separates the US from the Israeli military or the ISIS fighters.
In that particular case, error in foe identification vs. purposeful targeting of non-combatants and breaks of international treaties, encouraged by hierarchy.
Moral relativism is all fine and well, but society needs some element of trust. If we don't trust those fighting for us and claiming to protect us where does that lead us?
>>27908674
you missed part how some of "10+ men" were armed, including one guy with RPG
>>27908687
tell force in control of area that you will be there
don't sneak up to soldiers when you can hear shooting
WEAR YOUR "PRESS" VEST
The military were in a helicopter man……. there was no sneaking. They'd just arrived at the location.
>>27908674
>remember when this was released as 'collateral murder'
>believed wikileaks
>then found out they heavily edited the footage, particularly after the attack where the first team there found RPGs and AKs around the wreck
>started actually looking at the footage
>can clearly see people carrying AKs and one guy with an RPG-7
>They then show the pictures that the guy took where he was crouched down, holding his camera like an RPG around a corner at coalition forces two blocks down the road
>Forever distrust wikileaks for flat out lying to me
I was so mad you have no idea
The point is that accidents happen, yes they weren't wearing vests and were walking around a war zone (which to some was their homes) but why do the US military not own their actions and take responsibility? Instead they now look like crazed cowards.
>>27908743
This. It's likely that whoever fired on those journalists did so in error, believing them to be enemy combatants. It's a war zone after all, and fuck ups are bound to happen. Not even the US is immune to that.
Israeli soldiers are brought up believing that they are surrounded by enemies who would love nothing more than to destroy them and their nation. And to be fair, that's mostly true. Israelis in general tend to be pretty xenophobic, and they're very assertive people as well. If they don't like you, they'll treat you rough, and that tendency unfortunately extends to their military operations.
In contrast to these groups, ISIS is an organization whose very doctrine revolves around terror and murder. That's what makes them the bad guys compared to the US, which is largely benevolent and doesn't encourage its soldiers to murder people, and Israel, which is a young nation that hasn't seen peace since its inception, and has frequently had to fight for its very existence, both on and off the battlefield.
>>27908788
The bastards who leak info like that usually have an agenda, the same as the people who attempt to conceal it. You can't fully trust either of them. You just have to take both sides and attempt to parse out the truth that is normally found somewhere in the middle.
>>27908788
Is this really true? Wikileaks manipulated the footage?
>>27908822
Are you surprised? Assange had always been a shady fucker
>>27908674
>Who are the good guys these days?
i think you're implying that the us ever was the good guys.
>>27908788
you're a liar, but i'm sure you can provide source you lying bastard
>>27908822
it's not true don't let yourself getting trolled.
>>27908836
I was hoping those were attempts to tarnish his credibility and exempt him from power.
If he manipulated the footage to harm the US military's reputation that changes everything.
But, I will still question what made Manning so disturbed he wanted to share this information?
>>27908862
nice photoshop there
>>27908859
>what made Manning so disturbed he wanted to share this information?
Revenge. He was getting booted out of the service for failing penis inspections
>>27908870
>>27908858
>>27908822
>from the AAR
>We remained above the engagement site while Bushmaster sent ground forces to the site. Bushmaster arrived and reported 11 x AIF KIA and found RPGs and RPG rounds at the site. We also witnessed a loaded RPG lying 2-3 blocks south of the engagement site. Bushmaster reported that the first child was wounded and pulled from the van. We were unable to determine that there were children in the vehicle and never saw any children prior to or during the engagement. After viewing the gun tape, were able to determine that both wounded children came from the van. Bushmaster immediately MEDEVAC'd both girls to FOB Loyalty for medical care.
pic taken before engagement
>>27908784
There was US patrol that came under fire just before, and heli was circling to find black car, that was used during attack.
Pilots decide to open fire when one dumbas lurks behind corner, holding his camera, as if he was holding an RPG.
Photos recovered from camera clearly show line of humvees passing less than 100m from site of attack
>>27908862
I will look into this, thanks for the alternative info.
The cameramen were still only holding cameras though. Yes, there probably were armed locals in the area. As it keeps being mentioned it is a WARZONE. But if there was no threat of fire, or altercation for the US who were above in the sky, and at least two men were unarmed cameramen. Then why are they all dead? It STILL seems too unjust,
>>27908880
sounds like an excuse to me, not proof for anything.
>>27908879
That's the exact attitude I imagine drove him to feel left out. What army would do that to someone willing to give his life for country?
>>27908904
Here's a good part of the video that they flat out edited out.
Always remember to do your own research whenever possible
>>27908913
>finding RPGs and weapons at the site
>THAT'S NOT PROOFS
cmon bruh
>>27908913
So having anti-vehicle weapons on them when you were searching for people responsible for attacking your vehicles isn't "proof"?
>collateral damage happens in war and lugging around shoulder-mounted cameras while filming an engagement from the insurgent side like a dumbass will likely make you eat explosives
I am shocked and appalled, clearly America is satan.
>>27908772
Atrocities are commited by each side during conflict, intentionally or not. If you're proud of the bombing of Monte-Cassino, Dresden, Tokyo or the Laconia incident, amongst many others, then I have serious doubts about your quality has an human being.
But never forget that on top of those some parties have truly repulsive ideologies and end-goals.
The west may have some awful reasons to go to war (like oil, anti-socialism, industry meddling,...), but alongside that they have ideals of peace and equality that I find far superior to those of the talibans. Maybe destroying culture, preventing women to go to school, encouraging slavery and instituting death penalty for political crimes and adultery is a valid political and ethical system, but that son't mean it shouldn't be fought against.
And as you said yourself they are protecting YOU in the first place. Not the enemy, not the locals, you.
Collateral damage should be prevented as much as possible, but it's sadly inevitable. Every man may be your brother, but I'm sure most soldiers prefer for a foreigner (even an innocent on) to die instead of one of the people they swore to protect.
Also it's a matter of risk ; the human mind is quite optimistic and is ready to accept much as long as it isn't 100% certain to happen. When that gunner fires, he doesn't see the probabilty that those men are journalists, he sees the probability that they are taliban. That why we have strict rules of engagement, and why friendly fire is so common. But keep in mind that the other solution,, double-checking everything, would result in complete inaction, for there is never no risk at all.
>>27908904
it's called "natural selection". They brought death on themself because of their own stupidity.
Cameramen did nothing to separate or distinguish themself from combatants, which is the most important thing for jurnalist to keep himself alive.
>>27908918
>Here's a good part of the video that they flat out edited out.
funny that it's not a video.
>>27908918
>finding RPGs and weapons at the site
please, there is no proof for that, just pics of questionable quality.
what are ROE again? fire when you can clearly identify the target? despite all that high tech shit, the pilot was unable to identify the target correctly? and still smoked all of them? looks like he didn't follow the ROE. but yeah, the whole thing was doctored by assange himself, just to give the godlike us of a a bad name, because it was the absolute first and only time war crimes were commited. not that the whole invasion was a crime from the beginning.
>>27908918
What about the footage of the wounded man crawling the streets who the US shoot dead? Whats that about? How did wikileaks manipulate that? Yes they may have edited the footage to showcase the worst aspects, but its all there in black and white to see for yourselves. Which ever part of the footage you are shown!
>>27908904
You don't seem smart enough to post on 4chan and that is saying a lot.
>>27908859
Manning was a spiteful, mentally troubled turd who never got along with anyone in his unit and couldn't comprehend why he wouldn't be treated well. No, seriously, that's the reason.
>>27908926
there is no proof for that. next you tell me they found the WMDs your nigger general was lying about.
>>27908964
"If you're proud of the bombing of Monte-Cassino, Dresden, Tokyo or the Laconia incident, amongst many others, then I have serious doubts about your quality has an human being."
This is hella speculative mate. Random in all honesty.
>>27908742
Except they are, constantly. Though I do give you props for your misleading picture insinuating that we aren't allowed to criticize them, when that's clearly not the case.
2/10 /pol/ troll made me reply.
>>27908687
Exactly. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
>>27908980
yeah, even if he was, how incompetent makes that the people who hired him and gave him security clearance? lol
>hurr news people should have just left their expensive cameras hurr
>>27908967
Dispicable words.
They were risking their lives to report the conflict to the rest of the world. Whats stupid about that.
>>27909009
By embedding yourself with actual terrorists?
>don't wear press clothing
>don't sneakily film soldiers under fire from the exact area they are taking fire from...especially when it's with a fucking shoulder mounted camera
you are now smarter than the fucksticks who got lit up.
>>27909009
>Whats stupid about that.
hillbillies in trailer parks are only interested in watching budweiser commercials and reality tv shows. they don't care about what's going on in the world so it seems stupid to them.
>>27909004
>lol
isn't it a school day?
>>27909019
>DO wear press clothing*
>>27909009
The part where they had nothing denoting they were press and filmed from exactly where the insurgents were, among insurgents.
>>27909017
>people defending their country from invaders are terrorists now
>>27909019
>only embed yourself with the mcburgerking military
>get censored to shit because MUH NATIONAL PRIDE and MUH WARCRIMES
>mfw US media was not allowed to show coffins coming home because of MUH CENSORSHIP
>>27908988
>defending sandnigger terrorists
Wow, you must be from Germany or something.
>>27908971
I don't think you are getting the full picture...
>>27909044
Okay /int/, pack it up.
>>27909044
>the people that openly attack civilians and bomb election sites
>not terrorists
>just defending themselves
This didn't happen in 2003-4 when that argument could have been made. These were the people that became ISIS. Tell me more about how they were just defending their country :3
Unfortunately as a military sensor specialist they did look exactly like insurgents setting an ambush, the way they were taking pictures around the corner from within an armed group.
Engaging the van that attempted to aid the wounded was certainly illegal though.
>>27908970
any proof that he was even shot?
>>27908988
>there's a guy that is probably about to fire a rocket at our friends
>lets just wait for him to fire to make sure he is a bad guy; even though we are in a war zone
:^) are you fucking kidding me.
>>27908870
>>27908858
>>27908913
jesus christ are you guys fucking retarded?
>>27909009
Everyone with a camera is apparently your fabricated image of perfect journalism I guess...
>risking their lives
conversation over. They risked their lives.
>>27909027
you're on the internet, smart ass. but ok, use a fine ad hominem to distract from the fact that mannings superiors were probably more incompetent and a bigger threat to national security tha manning himself. they probably still have their jobs and hired the next disturbed loser who needed free money for college.
>>27909063
not that anon but you're just being edgy. Stop it kid.
>>27909050
sure, only yuropoors are that delusioned, right?
>>27909057
again, the whole invasion was a crime. you had no business going to iraq and fuck it up.
>>27909062
>there's a guy that is probably about to fire a rocket at our friends
no proof there ever was an RPG, funny enough, one conveniently showed up after the attack though.
>>27909058
How is engaging a van to help wounded illegal?!
>>27909075
>telling the truth is being edgy now
oh you poor soul, does the truth hurt so much in your national pride?
>>27909083
You just answered your own question.
>>27909082
Yeah, because you're flat out defending terrorists because there was a guy with a camera among them. Eat a dick.
>>27909082
>no proof there ever was an RPG, funny enough,
Yeah it's almost like they were very far away looking at a tiny screen and a guy with something large mounted on his shoulder being pointed around.
> one conveniently showed up after the attack though.
Oh is that seriously your argument; that an rpg was 'planted' there like an 80s drug bust?
Holy fucking shit I don't even have the words for this. You realize they were in a crowd of insurgents right?
>>27909083
it's usually a war crime to attack noncombatant medical or ambulatory services. That being said, if I had just been taking fire and some dude kept poking around the corner to get a quick glance at me; I would assume he was getting ready to do something.
>>27909094
But how can they implement it? How were they punished?
>>27909093
No I mean being anti american. Anyone could have been in mannings position and you'd saying the same thing with a changed out name.
We get it, EA servers are down and you're having a hard time dealing with your fits of rage after your country was overrun by refugees because we 'went into iraq' with half of nato. Oh wait we did that in the 90s too.
>>27909108
It was supposedly a father taking his children to school who stopped to assist a wounded man. hmmmmm, not sure how much of a threat they were at this point.
>>27909118
What do you mean?
>>27909131
I'm not sure which post you're referring to so ill just say this
>here I am with my children in a war zone 'on the way to school'
>oh there is an explosion, better just fucking drag my kids into this active combat zone
said no one ever. Get your head out of your ass.
>>27909083
Are you serious
>>27909137
How Have the individuals involved in shooting the vehicle, assisting the wounded, been punished for the war crime?
>>27909101
again, the terrorists are the us armed forces in this case, here the definition for terrorism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism
the US military illegally attacked iraq, based on lies. there's denying that.
next you're telling me that the soldier who raped and killed that girl in that house was just defending his buddies and that the girl also had an RPG.
>>27909108
>Yeah it's almost like they were very far away looking at a tiny screen
what are ROE?
>an rpg was 'planted' there like an 80s drug bust?
no is say the pic is doctored.
>>27909159
>ROE
You keep saying this term. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>>27909082
from Assange himself:
>".... Assange acknowledged that "it's likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons". He explained, "based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG"
>>27909148
Are you saying it's his fault for being in Baghdad? Are you aware people were living, working and attending school at the time? You seem to have some delusion that it was a restricted free fire zone.
>>27909123
>No I mean being anti american.
>accusing psyochopaths of the criminal actions is now being anti american
oh the PTSD is strong with this one
there are psychopaths even in the oh so honorable US armed forces, this has nothing to do with anti americanism. defending said psychopaths on the other hand is borderline retarded.
>>27909159
>what are ROE?
>when a firefight is already going and your forces were just taking direct fire
:^) okay
>no is say the pic if doctored
What pic, the one in the thread earlier? I don't see it. The picture is simply from a different and lower angle.
Also why would anyone edit the picture. To save face? are you kidding me?
>>27909148
hmm, I said 'supposedly' and regardless of his situation - taking children to school in a war zone or not - all he was doing was trying to put an injured man in the back of his car. Thats what he died for.
>>27909148
Why do you think that? I'm interested to know why you think he wouldn't stop to help or that his kids wouldn't be going to school.
>>27909184
>THEYRE PSYCHOPATHS
>THEYRE CRAZY
>IM THE ONLY SANE ONE AND ONLY I CAN SEE IT
Anon. I'm not even talking about manning, I'm talking about your blind willingness to fall into line and munch down this propaganda. I'm sure you'll be headed to college soon; so which major? Business or liberal arts.
>>27909173
from the ROE for iraq:
"Those targets that, if struck, have a ten percent probability of causing collateral damage through blast debris and fragmentation and are estimated to result in significant collateral effects on noncombatant persons and structures, including: (A) Non-combatant casualties estimated at 30 or greater; (B) Significant effects on Category I No Strike protected sites in accordance with Ref D; (C) In the case of dual-use facilities, effects that significantly impact the non-combatant population, including significant effects on the environment/facilities/infrastructure not related to an adversary’s war making ability; or (D) Targets in close proximity to known human shields."
>>27909197
Usually you try to keep children out of combat... as their parent. You know?
>>27909191
An unidentified man doing unidentified things in a combat zone. He made the stupid decision to try and help; which is still speculation, and went into a place where bad people were. How you don't understand that that is a very dumb thing to do in the first place troubles me.
It's like walking down the street, and some random guy comes out of a store and drops a bag full of money, and you start helping him pick it up. When the cops show up and you're both trying to stuff the money into the bag; you are also getting arrested.
Doesn't it seem like they only leak stuff that embarrasses the US?
>>27909208
your constant ad hominen fling is proof you're an adult.
and of course, you're totally not affected by the propaganda of the USDoD to wash their bloody hands. nooooooo not you, never, you're above it all.
>>27909224
>Usually you try to keep children out of combat... as their parent. You know?
How do you think he knew he was in an "active combat zone"? It's a city that had bombs and firefights going on every single day for four years at this point. This isn't a war zone, it's daily life.
All you know is that he's come across a group of wounded men. You have no grounds for this being suspicious activity when it's normal pattern of life in 2007 Iraq.
>>27909228
not at all, but you wouldn't know as you're not really interested in actually reading the leaks. feel victimized so much?
>>27909228
>buuuuhhuuuuuuu everybody hates america
>>27909208
I'd bet on a Communications degree; the shittiest of them all
>>27909228
No just those who act in unethically and think they shouldn't pay for it, when they make others pay for much less worse! It's not just the US doing this as shown in this case...
>>27909228
It was funny when they leaked all the state department e-mails and it essentially reaffirmed everything that everyone already knew and showed the US was actually pretty rational and didn't want to fuck over it's allies, in particular the UK. Was funny when they said that the Italians were a joke and would flipflop the moment they could, Poland was alright if a bit angsty and that nobody likes the North Koreans, not even the Chinese.
>>27908674
Whether the U.S. are the "good guys" or not, totally depends on your perspective, and likely, ideology. Here's what I will say. No army escapes from any large-scale conflict without inflicting collateral damage, and the situation in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine for Israel ensures this further due to the tactics employed by enemy forces. They purposely attempt to cloak themselves in with civilians, some who are involved and some not. They employ young children and women to do suicide bombings and teach them to fire at U.S. and Israeli soldiers. They hide munitions and armaments in dwellings inhabited by their relatives or force it upon people they know. These are well established tactics that they use not only to conceal themselves from harm, but to make sure civilians are accidentally or purposefully killed, because that feeds into their organizations and helps bring them popular support. Despite this, the U.S. and army goes to great lengths to try to minimize collateral damage, but it still happens. Occasionally a mistake is made or a soldier just plain crosses the line. They're almost always seriously reprimanded. The U.S. military isn't perfect, but even if this event happened as wikileaks would lead you to believe, (it's been established ITT that it didn't), comparing the U.S. or Israeli militaries to Daesh shows a serious lack of perspective on your part. We've done some pretty fucked up shit in the past that probably wasn't justified, (nuking Japan, agent orange in 'Nam etc.) but nowadays the ROE are pretty strict and killing civilians for fun isn't even close to being accomodated. Don't fall for Hadji and leftist propaganda. A few disturbing incidents on the battlefield doesn't equate to mass executions, brutal torture, and terrorizing civilians being your modus operandi.
>>27909383
False equivalence, abhorrent acts from one don't absolve another.
>>27909383
The fact that ISIS executes prisoners doesn't make it "leftist/hadji propaganda" that it was illegal to fire on the van in that image.
And I say this as someone who does this professionally.
>>27908674
I remember this. The cameramen WERE with insurgents. the pilots were unsure of what was going on, then the camera crew pointed the camera at the chopper. In the video its just a dark shape going onto a guys shoulder, mind you this was a warzone, the pilot thinks its a guy taking a pot ahot at him with an RPG so he lights them all up.
Locals start tossing the wounded into a van. Again something that looks like a weapon is picked up and put in the van, the pilot lights up the van.
Tragic, yes.
Criminal, no.
The pilot acted in what he thought was self defense and was well within the ROE.
Ive been to war. I understand why the pilot shot, but you cant blame him. How could he know? Would you want your Army to wait to be shot before shooting?
>>27909394
I didn't make that shitty comparison in the first place. It's right in the OP. He wanted to know what makes the U.S. military any different in its tactics or execution than Daesh. And I also never claimed we were the good guys, since that's a matter of opinion. If you believe in shariah law and eternal jihad, then clearly Al Qaeda would be the good guys to you. If you're grounded in western values and principles, then you would probably see Al Qaeda and Daesh's actions as morally abhorrent and see the U.S. military as maybe not benevolent, but certainly not an organization that seeks to kill and destroy without recourse. I will tell you one thing for certain. The U.S. military has attempted to do more for non-combatant citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan than those who controlled those places before. It doesn't necessarily excuse the invasion of Iraq, and certainly doesn't excuse the actions of any U.S. soldiers who went over the line, but when we start talking about the morality, it's worth remembering.
>>27908797
Because there is no worthwhile thing you can do, so you just move on.
The us military is beyond reproach as a whole so it doesn't matter, if a lesser military does it they may be sanctioned, if a weak military does it then we go to war, if a nobody does it they just get killed.
>>27909236
Jokes on you bitch I don't give a shit about it.
>>27909240
People being wounded and a helicopter shooting is usually a good indicator.
For all you know he could have been approaching the bodies to recover arms and munitions.
I love it when people like >>27909394 make these post with 'false equivalence' or 'ad hominid' and shit and totally disregard anything the post says. It's like calling someone out on a spelling error, and making that your entire base of argument.
To everyone in this thread please see >>27909457
>>27908674
>Who are the good guys these days?
The ones who aren't muzzies
>>27909058
>Engaging the van that attempted to aid the wounded was certainly illegal though.
You can provide aid to wounded if you want, but you can't leave place until it's secured, or you'll be flat out considered enemy support. You can't just enter and start picking bodies, weapons or other things, and then try to leave with them.
In theory at least, in practice most militaries won't bother bystander running away as long as they do so empty-handed, and nothing indicates them beign part of hostile force.
>>27908674
9/10 people killed in drone strikes are collateral damage. That's what modern warfare is.
>>27909148
FYI it is claimed that when officials on the ground reached the sight, they found children inside the vehicle.
>>27908797
lolwat?
They did though. They even performed an investigation of the incident back in 07 after it happened.
>>27909868
No,investigations occurred after it was leaked. Under international pressure.
>>27908988
I hate to tell you this, but...
>>27909622
>You can provide aid to wounded if you want, but you can't leave place until it's secured, or you'll be flat out considered enemy support
That's not true, or supported by anything.
>>27908788
>implying journalists don't have armed escorts
>>27909082
Actually, the invasion started on 8/2/91. The cease-fire put into place at the end of ODS included clauses that said that if the agreement was broken by Saddam, then the cease-fire was off and the war would continue.
Saddam then proceeded to break the agreement 6 ways by Sunday. But, Bush had no political capital to go back and finish the job, Clinton largely ignored the problem aside from token strikes, and W didn't do anything about it until after Afghanistan was well in hand (remember the "Rush to War" that lasted a whole year?).
I never understood why W didn't simply point out that Saddam was in violation of the cease-fire and the war had, legally, resumed a decade beforehand. I'm guessing the Europeans (many of whose leaders were violating sanctions under the table for kickbacks) would never have been convinced by such a concise legal argument.
>>27909159
"Illegal"
Based on what, exactly? By western tradition and the rules of war, Saddam had 10 years of Causus Belli stacked up against him.
>>27908674
They were well disciplined
>>27908988
>Someone mentions the large chemical weapons stockpiles
>You immediately shift the goalposts to nukes.
>>27910007
What large chemical weapon stockpiles?
You mean Al Muthanna?
>>27909974
>8/2/91
Le palm de face.
I meant 8/2/90.
>>27909954
You're right, everyone knows we escort our journalists with fucking AT-4s, right?
>>27908720
A fine answer.
>>27908801
A better answer
>>27909383
Perhaps the "best" answer iit.
There you go, OP, that should sum up the thread.
