How would one stop a charging knight?
I don't know how fast the average horse moves but even with a giant ass pike wouldn't the momentum of it put you on your ass?
>>30586311
Horses don't charge into solid masses of infantry at all. A cavalry charge only works once the formation has been broken up or are losely spaced, any solid formation will stop a cavalry charge, even if you don't have a pike.
In most of history cavalry was mainly used to cut down a routing army, in for example the 800-1100 most fights were done by infantry, and once a shield wall broke you'd send in the cavalry, to ride down the retreating enemy.
>>30586311
When the kind of cavalry charge you see in movies actually happened, like charging the enemy straight into the front without prior disruption of the formation it almost always ended terribly and wasn't intentional. Some examples:
Agincourt, They only charged the english because they thought they could ride down the archers, but mud slowed them down and they got fucked, also note that most knights on both sides fought on foot.
Waterloo, Scots grey guard got fucked, and didn't even mean to charge head on, but tried to cut down a column, the french cavalry charge was only made because they thought the english was routing.
Charge of the light brigade. This was just fucking stupid.
>>30586443
Lances, however, could kill and shatter the front of an infantry block without running into the problem that a horse won't (deliberately) run into a packed mass of men.
Once the front broke and men started running cavalry were devastating. They could easily kill huge numbers and keep the foes retreating, preventing them from regrouping.
The sheer power of cavalry charges was enough to make them pretty rare. European battlefields became defined by formations that were highly resistant to cavalry charge, thus cavalry shaped the battlefield even when they weren't decisive.
>>30586311
Yeah those cavalry aren't charging at all, look at how the horses are oriented. That's suicide to charge into a pike formation on a horse. Pikemen usually plant the butt of their pike into the ground so that the force of impact is transferred into the earth. Also, horses aren't suicidal and won't often allow themselves to be driven into spearpoints. So pikes were a great counter to horses for centuries until firearms progressed to the point where cavalry was made obsolete entirely.
>>30586443
I'm talking about you on the frontline. I would not want to be hit by a charging horse at all I'm no expert but I think it would kill you I remember reading something about warhorses biting and kicking motherfuckers too.
>>30586443
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tgi-j56ueU
I-i-is so the Rohirrim charge bullshit?
>>30586568
no, they were charging from an unguarded flank. this was done often in the renaissance to napoleonic era
>>30586472
>Charge of the light brigade
Eat shit you historyless mongrel.
>not charging into artillery for king and country
>>30586587
This makes me happy
>>30586311
Take away his credit card
>>30586568
Yes, total horse shit, the sheer mass of the orcs would have been impossible to plow through, even if the first 3-5 ranks of polearms didn't fuck ujp the horses. But it's not as bad as Helms deep when they charge a pikewall. Fucking hell.
>>30586561
If your line is 1 deep, you're completely fucked by cavalry, if your formation is 3-5 deep, and standing less than a foot from each other, a horse will refuse to charge. You can want to charge all you want, but horses just don't fucking do it.
>>30586568
Will we ever have another series this good?
>>30586597
>losing to russians
>on behalf of a german king
>>30586536
To be fair those arent shock cavalry, they have firearms to hit and run like horse archers, they wouldnt charge unless scattered infantry for the picking.
>>30586587
Warhorses for charging were absolute monsters... Saw one the other day, the saddle was around about 185cm high
>>30586561
Shoot it. When the horse comes tumbling down it kills the momentum of the charge for everyone behind it.
>>30586631
One on one vs a mounted knight would a single pike scare a horse into stopping?
Why didn't knights ride bulls or try some shit like that?
>>30586723
No a pike would not scare a horse, and you'd have a fine chance at defeating a horseman, you don't even need a pike, a single horseman vs a guy with spear or bayonet isn't going to do very well. You can just side step.
And they didn't ride bulls because thats fucking stupid, stfu. You don't need to shit post to keep the thread alive it's already interesting enough as it is.
>>30586536
That's quite right. The artist is showing the "caracole", where pistol-armed cavalry would ride to a mass of infantry, fire into them from outside their reach, then retreat to reload.
A man on a horse can't carry a lance long enough to reach past really long pikes, so until the pikes are gone the cavalry can't do that much to the front. Mostly they'd be used to try and get around the sides or rear, or (in most cases) held in reserve to counter enemy attacks and to exploit any breaches in the line. Once the cavalry got past the front the rest of the line would, generally, break and start to run, allowing the cavalry to keep them running and shatter the force.
The cavalry also limited the opposing force's options to maneuver by simply being there. The threat of a charge meant that you had to keep your forces in formations that could resist a charge at all times.
>>30586666
Pro tip: No
>>30586744
>You can just side step.
I dunno man, this is what I was thinking but against an armoured knight + horse I don't think you'd be able to hit near him before the horse crushes you not to mention whatever weapon he has. Would have to dodge roll and even then.
>thats fucking stupid, stfu
But burning pigs aren't?
>>30586587
>>30586631
>contradictory posts
So is it shit or not.
>>30586443
Explain all the cavalry that had to charge into squares
>>30586884
it's shit.
>>30586744
>>30586870
If you are alone, and you are holding a pike, STOP HOLDING THE PIKE.
Pikes are not weapons intended for use by one person.
>>30586870
Yeah.. You can't really just step out of the way. He's going to ride up to you and slash down with a sword. If you go down, he's going to have his horse stomp you, then go on.
Your best chance to survive is running faster then the other people that were fighting with you. When they are getting killed, you get away.
>>30586930
they didn't
>>30586950
Depends on what kind of pike really. Pike doesn't have to be a spanish 8 foot pike or a Sarrisa.
>>30586950
>Your best chance to survive is running faster then the other people that were fighting with you. When they are getting killed, you get away.
>not tripping people up
![battle_of_waterloo_copy_2.3mb_1024x683[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/kcpumTV.jpg "battle_of_waterloo_copy_2.3mb_1024x683[1].jpg")
>>30586952
Uhh, I believe they did
>>30586930
Eh, mostly they died.
Sometimes they'd run parallel to the square, looking for an opening, trying to throw a spear or shoot a gun. The Zulu found out this isn't really a winning method of square-breaking.
Sometimes they'd push in close and try to break the front with the advantage of height. The charge loses momentum and you basiclly end up standing your horse next to the square, brawling with them.
This gets rid of most of your advantages and none of the advantages of the men in the square. This is a Bad idea.
There is no good option to combat a formed square as a cavalryman, short of staying outside their range and threatening them with a charge to keep them formed up and tightly packed while your artillery zeros or your infantry closes in a line with far greater local firepower to shoot them, then waiting for them to die or break under bombardment.
>>30586984
See the angle? You can get a horse to run up next to those men. Then you can fight with them.. and again, not a great idea. Mostly a painful one. But war doesn't always give us good options.
>>30586311
Yes a horse momentum would put a guy holding a spear on his ass. That's why if you look up Alexander the great his army had pikemen with extra like pike/spears for the time with a metal spike type bit on the end of their pikes that they could stab into the ground for stability. His army was trained to move from a box formation to sort of a u shaped formation to stop horses and chariots fairly effectively when nobody else was doing that at that time.
You see over time that most formations of men started to favor longer pikes like that over time in europe centuries later.
The romans didn't really adopt that tactic because they had throwing weapons instead but calvalry charges like that were less of a problem since the stirrup wasn't invented, a lance charge from knights didn't really get invented until the stirrup showed up for horses, before that guys probably would of just knocked themselves off horses during a lance charge. Before that guys fighting on horses were just more mobile infantry that would try to flank enemies, cavalry archers, or would just dismount and fight on foot once they got close.
>>30586311
I feel like no one has given the obvious answer, wjich is that you jam the butt ends of your pikes into the ground.
>>30587611
you'll still have to hold it.
>>30586311
In the middle ages, the horse was often armored as well. In those situations, not much really could.
ITT: people that have never been around horses.
horses are herd animals, and most importantly, flight not fight animals.
the horse ALREADY WANTS TO RUN AWAY. it just needs a little more encouragement.
>>30588335
>horses are herd animals, and most importantly, flight not fight animals.
There's a reason warhorses were so expensive. They were big and AGGRESSIVE AS FUCK. You ever been around a mean stallion? Imagine if all horses were bred and TRAINED to emphasize those traits even moreso.
>>30586472
>Charge of the light brigade. This was just fucking stupid.
To be fair, they weren't even supposed to charge. It was a bureaucratic mixup and the orders were delivered to the wrong unit.
>>30586631
THIS MEME AGAIN
trained horses WILL charge into thick pike walls
its just a bad idea and a waste of a good warhorse
>>30586625
Kek
>>30589859
>It was a bureaucratic mixup and the orders were delivered to the wrong unit.
More accurately a misinterpretation of orders which would have been remedied, had not the guy who would have fixed it been slain before he could do so.
>>30587196
Not quite. Before the stirrup, you'd still have mounted calvary engage in melee with a sword or spear. It's just that they weren't as effective due to the decreased stability of the saddle used. Despite this, they still did so anyways, since calvary is that important. Take the cataphracts for an example; they're both mounted archers and heavy shock calvary.
>>30586443
So basically everything that Medieval Total War taught me about charging heavy cavalry being unstoppable death machines to anything short of pikemen or heavy spearmen, is a lie?
>>30586984
Battlefield paintings have as much to do with reality as '80s war movies.
>>30586472
Actually moron what is in the picture is the 16th century cavalry tactic is called a "Caracole", where pistoleers on horseback would ride up to enemy infantry squares, fire their pistols in the block just out of pike range, and then turn to their horse to their other side and fire their other pistol and then ride off
>>30586443
War horses actually would charge into infantry. Modern horses behave way differently.
>>30586984
They're literally running along the formation, not charging it, you can see that very easily.
>>30590585
Hey man, it's a game. Keep in mind that there were a lot of realism re-balance mods too. Like others have said, horses aren't stupid, rather, the exact opposite. Even well trained ones will Nope on out if you try and have them charge directly into a solid mass of infantry. Plus, if you did manage to get them to charge into a formation of infantry, you'd lose momentum fast, then get dragged off your horse via billhooks, pikes or what have you and then killed. That's assuming the horses aren't simply hacked and shanked to death along with their riders too. If you read historical accounts, yeah, you'll even find that Breton shield walls would stop calvary charges.
So what you do is conduct passing strikes with the lance or fire arrow barrages from horseback to break formation first, then you run them down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nagashino
zzz
>>30586568
No, it happened in real life at the Battle of Vienna which is what that scene is based off of.
>>30586631
Read a book once and awhile it will do you some good.
It is recorded that the Polish cavalry slowly emerged from the forest to the cheers of the onlooking infantry, which had been anticipating their arrival. At 4:00 pm the Polish hussars first entered into action, battering the Turkish lines and approaching the Türkenschanze, which was now threatened from three sides (the Poles from the west, the Saxons and the Bavarians from the northwest and the Austrians from the north). At that point the Turkish vizier decided to leave this position and retreat to his headquarters in the main camp further south. However, by then many Ottomans were already leaving the battlefield.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna#Events_during_the_siege
>>30590964
samefagging:
The horses slowed to cross the stream and were fired upon as they crested the streambed within 50 meters of the enemy. This was considered the optimum distance to penetrate the armor of the cavalry. In typical military strategy, the success of a cavalry charge depends on the infantry breaking ranks so that the cavalry can mow them down. If the infantry does not break, however, cavalry charges will often fail—with even trained warhorses refusing to advance into the solid ranks of opponents
>>30586631
You must be fun at parties, it's easy to charge a pikewall when your lances are longer than the pikes you dipshit.
The assumption in the West was that it was not possible for cavalry to fall on a pike formation. Since the pike and lance were the same length, before the knight reached the pikeman, his horse was impaled on the pike. This situation looked like bad news to the contemporary western European cavalry, who wholly abandoned the lance.
As it happens, the situation was different with the hussar. The Hussar's Lance was constructed differently than medieval lances, as its center was bored out to save weight, and it was longer than its precursors - many were even 5.5m long- but were still lighter than western lances. (Examples exist to the present day). At the same time, the tendency of the pike was to become shorter in the West. So, the hussar could hit a pikemen before the pike reached his horse.
Further reading: http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/HowHussarFought.htm
>>30586884
The concept of charging an enemy either unprepared to receive a cavalry charge or from a flank is totally correct and based in historical fact, but in this case since there is literal sea of orcs on ahead of them the Rohirrim charge is total horse shit.
Take solace though, if this were real life the orcs' "formation", if you could call it that would have been completely impossible to command and would have probably done more harm to themselves than to the enemy.
>>30586723
>Why didn't knights ride bulls or try some shit like that?
Try to ride a bull, anon, see how it turns out.
>>30586950
>Pikes are not weapons intended for use by one person.
Do you mean they weren't weapons able to be used by one man, or that they were only good en masse? The former is not true, but the latter is.
>>30591166
kek
>>30591099
COWBOY KNIGHTS Y'ALL
8 SECONDS OF GLORY
>>30591118
The second. A ten meter pike is not something for single combat.
>>30586443
>Horses don't charge into solid masses of infantry at all
Yes they do.
>>30586443
>orses don't charge into solid masses of infantry at all. A cavalry charge only works once the formation has been broken up or are losely spaced, any solid formation will stop a cavalry charge, even if you don't have a pike.
What are you, fucking retarded? War horses were barded rape machines trained to canter/gallop into formations and batter people. The fuckers would even jump into people which caused hell for the rider, btw. But calvary would pick a weak point and just shatter it with the weight of th3 charg3. People dont stay put when a barded war horse's chest shatters their face
>>30590920
What is that guy on the left swinging around?
>>30592042
I could be wrong, but that looks like a fuck-huge dildo.
>>30591889
If they don't stay put they are ruined the formations which i said.
>>30591024
Hitting the first pikemen with your lance doesn't stop you from being fucked by the next 4 if you charge into a pike wall.
>>30590976
The cavalry attacked an already defeated army after 14 hours of fucking battle.
At the time the ottoman formation was heavily disrupted and it says in your own post some ottomans were already routing.
Congratulations on giving an example of what i said retard.
>>30590669
They shot them with a pistol to disrupt the formation, and they would keep riding up to them and then riding away to reload.
That is not a charge dipshit.
>>30590585
yes
>>30589943
never happened; please post proof.
>>30586984
The waterloo infantry sqaures weren't even dense and they still fucked the cavalry really hard btw if you didn't know. They were not meant to charge those sqaures, that was a mistake, they had no idea there were sqaures there.
>>30586311
Nah, spears, pikes, phalanx formations and heavy troops in general work.
Some javelins will destroy cavalry, and arrows (especially flaming) will break horses.
>>30586631
Weren't the Horses of Rohan children of the horse god or some shit?
>>30586443
Horses can and will charge pikes, and ram other horses. That's what training is for.
The only good thing that came from Spain were fuckhuge Mastiffs that tore at the ankles and legs of horses so they'd fall and be easy pickin for - you guessed it - more fuckhuge wardogs.
>Sir, we've spotted an enemy pike formation, should we send in the infantry and then flan-
>No! Send the cavalry to charge them head on!
>S-sir? But they'll surely parish, you're sending them charging headlong into a wall of pikes.
>Nonsense! Horse skin folded one mirrion time, will vaporize puny pikemen!
>R-right away, sir.
>>30586666
Ugh. This just reminds me that the Hobbit was disappoint. Only memorable shit was the Dwarf army at the end of the third movie
>>30593382
>Hitting the first pikemen with your lance doesn't stop you from being fucked by the next 4 if you charge into a pike wall.
I don't think you understand.
A man on foot, hit by a couched lance, is going to go fucking flying backwards.
The horse, even if impaled, is going into the hole he leaves, and will not stop until killed or crippled.
1000 pounds of angry fucking hooves careening forward, with an armed, armored man on top. The man behind him gets to ride into this gap.
>provide proof
Marignano.
>>30588650
>muh huge warhorses
When will this myth die?
Archaeological findings in England about warhorse size indicate that the largest destriers (the best class of warhorse, which was both prohibitively expensive and scarce) were, by modern standards, not especially strong and usually around 15-16 hands in height. This is the same size as your average Thoroughbred and markedly smaller than modern breeds that are famous for their size and strength, like the Clydesdale or Percheron.
Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=A6mfmPBUUewC&printsec=frontcover (Read the chapter that starts on page 22).
So the very best horses available in medieval England, which you could likely only afford if you were a great noble like a major Count, a Duke, or a King, were only as good as a generic modern horse. If you were a lesser noble, you would most likely be stuck riding a courser or rouncey that would be ~12-14 hands in height--something that's the size of your average modern pony.
>>30591889
>muh barding
How many nobles do you think could actually afford a barding for their horses? Consider that your average noble couldn't afford to even own a destrier.
>>30603531
>Consider that your average noble couldn't afford to even own a destrier.
Yes they could.
>How many nobles do you think could actually afford a barding for their horses?
All of the gendarmes.
>>30603634
>Yes they could
Do you have a source on your claim that minor nobles all had destriers? Because I have one that says otherwise.
Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=yjA3BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA154#v=onepage&q&f=false
