In the light of the Mirage 2000 thread from yesterday and the regular bashing of the Rafale here, how good generally are Dassault planes including those less discuted and more ancient (Mirage IV, Mirage F1, Super Etendard) ? I'm quite frustrated desu because as a Frenchman all our media portrays Marcel Dassault as a genius and Dassault planes either as very good platform or straight-up revolutionary concepts that crush all opponents. Any unbiased and substanciated info would be appreciated.
There is no doubt that Dassault makes good planes. Israel was very successful using it's Mirage III against various Soviet planes. The Jews even liked the Mirage so much they copied it and made the Kfir. Switzerland tested the Gripen, the Eurofighter and the Rafale. The Rafale won the competition (before the Eurofighter and Gripen) but did not get chosen because it was too expensive. Iraqi Mirage F-1 shot down Iranian F-4, F-5, and even F-14.
The main problem is probably the price. The Rafale is an excellent plane, but it's terribly expensive compared to other excellent planes.
>>30468389
Isn't that due to the fact that those competing planes are mostly either American (therefore benefit from the scale production) or Saab stuff (so cheaper) ?
Also do you have any specific knowledge about the Mirage IV and Super Etendard ? Literally any info you can find about them is "they do the job they're supposed do more or less well", which sounds like some military PR bullshit for "they kinda suck but they still work desu".
>>30468273
Say what you will about the French but they know how to make their own stuff and make it look beautiful
>>30468586
Personally I think the Rafale looks boring, it is anywhere are sleek as the older delta wings. Pic related (bumping with classic Mirage IVs).
>>30468635
Eh with that color going on it looks like Drive but with planes. Comfy af t b h sempai
>>30468542
You forgot Eurofighter, which has significantly beat it in exports.
>>30468273
France appears to have had more success getting the Rafale rolled out compared to some US planes.
>>30468670
Can it be /k/'s official jet
>>30468680
Yeah but I know less about this plane so I didn't try to talk about it. Is is actually better or cheaper ? From /k/ I heard that both weren't so good compared to their American counterparts.
>>30468721
I actually heard that the Eurofighter puts up a lot of good competition against both other Euro and American jets
>>30468712
>Can it be /k/'s official jet
No.
>>30468712
So beautiful ;_;
>>30468711
I thought that either US planes were getting all exports contracts (mainly because the US has more financial leverage and won't hesitate dumping its price to break its opponents, as was seen recently when US planes were preferred to Rafales in India or Brazil iirc) or were more advanced planes that they don't wanna give to other countries.
>>30468273
they taste like bread
>>30468721
Eurofighters are superior in A2A, Rafales are better bomb trucks, if you want an oversimplified way of looking at it.
Eurofighters right now are growing more than Rafales, though.
Glory to our le vecteur de l'arme atomique nationale !
The main problem Dassault has for decades is the fact France can't buy what they could design.
Other than that, there's no real turd among their products. Or at least not since the 50's.
I'd like to see them do their best on a real, full size, heavy fighter, though.
>>30469033
France would have no use for that though.
Also Dassault did develop planes on its own before without waiting for a government program, but even then those planes ended up mainly used by the French military.
>>30469049
Does China have any use for its SU30 and J-20 ? They had no heavy fighter before though. Except the J-8 if that counts for a heavy fighter. Well they did acquire some though.
Does Venzuela or Mexico have use for Flankers ?
There are tons of reasons why France would need a heavy long range multirole fighter.
I'd personnally like to see a Super Rafale 30% bigger with room for internal or external conformal bays as well as conformal array and way more internal fuel.
>>30469241
What other planes qualify as heavy fighters ? F15/F18 ?
>>30469343
Super Hornet and Eagle, yeah, pretty much.
>>30469241
they want 1 plane for Navy and Air Force
>>30468273
Relax OP
Once the MBDA Meteor is fully operational, the Rafale will be as good as any 4.5 gen fighter in the world.
>>30469577
Debatable.
Its also getting a 1-way datalink version, gimping the Meteor.
>Mirage III/5 was a great sales success
>Mirage 2000 had decent sales
>Almost nobody will buy Rafale
>tfw in the future there will be no Dassault planes anymore
>>30469577
I don't care whether the Rafale actually is good or not mind you, I just want to be able to tell what's true between the French state propaganda and the American memes.
>>30469643
As long as there are French taxpayers there will be Dassault planes because muh nationale excellence and muh complexe militaro-industriel hexagonal !
An Air Force that doesn't train its pilots enough, doesn't have the infrastructure of radar, AWACS, air defense, sufficient A2A missiles and PGMs, doesn't have good datalinks, etc. will lose, even if the air frames it operates are technically "better"
>>30469683
There is literally nothing wrong with having a native military industrial complex for France.
>>30468712
fixed
>>30469724
The south africans killed commies with them in angola so they are pretty cool by me. I like french helicopters more tho
>>30470536
oy vey
>>30469643
>Almost nobody will buy Rafale
Except Egypt, India, Qatar, UAE. And other potential operators.
>tfw in the future there will be no Dassault planes anymore
>Thinking that the French give a fuck about rest of the world
As long they are still arrogant and thinking they are technology superior to the rest of Europe. We will probably see a new dassault plane in the future. And the French make it for their country, exports to them is just extra money.
>>30470536
Delete this
>>30470746
>>30471190
Whoops. Sorry about that.
The Rafale is a beautiful plane. It is probably the best looking 4 or 4.5 generation fighter out there.
Why doesn't anyone in Europe have bombers anymore? I would think a medium range, medium bomber would make sense for that area of the world.
It is not like the US is going to sell the B-21 to anyone. I would think a company like Dassault would develop a Eurobomber to threaten Russia and for operations in the Middle East.
>>30471470
Why bother when the US has plenty of bases and operational strategic bombers and strike aircraft in Europe anyway? A fighter could probably carry any necessary nuclear ordinance for a European country anymore, and for bombardment PGMs are the way of warfare anymore, which fighters can deliver much more efficiently, safer, and more cost-effectively than larger bombers.
Plus ICBMs, and at least the UK has ballistic subs, maybe France too, idr.
bump for more dassault planes
>>30472585
>>30468273
As a Brit, I have something of fighter-envy towards the French.
My assumption would be that the Typhoon would beat the Rafale, but that in general Dassault turned out more stuff overall and sold it to more people.
From what little I know the Rafale is a a top tier plane but its way too expensive and locked-in. Many countries flat-out rejected it and bought other planes despite the Rafale being the better in general
I read that people would have to fly it to France in order to perform repairs and could only put French missiles in it so not only do you pay outta the ass for the plane itself it has sky-high ongoing maintenance costs and shitty locked-in weaponry
Also it has the protuding goddamn refueling nozzle. That's just not good taste, planes that are beautiful fly the same way and an asymmetrical nozzle on the plane just kills its beauty. Why would a plane keep the nozzle out in any situation except in flight refueling
https://youtu.be/7gvvr_NyewQ
One of the best aircraft related videos on the internet. I recommend putting your own music on, though.
>>30474028
Holy shit. I don't think I have ever seen a jet that low
>>30474028
What's wrong with the music
>>30471559
France has ballistic subs.
>>30473879
>Many countries flat-out rejected it and bought other planes despite the Rafale being the better in general.
Pretty much this.
The Rafale won the technical evaluation both in South Korea and Singapore, the F-15 won the political evaluation.
In the Netherlands it faced a then-virtual F-35 supposedly priced at 65 Millions $ per unit, and lost by a 2 points margin (695/700 while the F-35 powerpoint won with 697/700). Oops.
Should I mention Switzerland ?
The egyptians absolutely love their Rafale and already want more. The first qatari plane just took off a few days ago, and the poo-in-loo, despite their defense minister being a spoiled retard, just need these planes and won't redo an eval to buy something else at this point.
The only market Dassault didn't participate in was Japan, as there was zero real intention from the japanese MoD to buy the french fighter. Still didn't preclude them from selling some Falcon 2000 maritime patrol aircraft to the waifu molesters.
>I read that people would have to fly it to France in order to perform repairs
That's the F-35 you're thinking about anon. Dassault offers independance to his clients. See the Mirage raid on ISIS in Lybia done by Egyptian and Qatari planes in 2014, who relied on their Mirage 2000 while their F-16 were remotely locked-down by the US.
>>30468273
The Tornado F2 is fully the equal of the F-15C, and the GR4 of the F-15E.
>>30473879
>and could only put French missiles in it so not only do you pay outta the ass for the plane itself it has sky-high ongoing maintenance costs and shitty locked-in weaponry
Total bullshit.
weapon buses are NATO compliant. How does GBU or the Meteor could be fitted on it otherwise ?
Rafale can also use Thalès Damoclès (and Talios in a few years), LM Sniper (Qatar), and Rafael/Northrop Grumman's Litening (India) targeting pods.
Dassault even began to work on the integration of russian weapons for India years ago, and will integrate their indigenous Astra missile for example.
But the integration of weapons has a cost. The french philosophy on this is : less fancy weapons loadouts, more of the flight enveloppe opened, including with assymetrical loadouts due to, you guessed it, delivering them in combat situations.
Also, to make non-french weapons work with the Rafale weapons system would mean giving away critical infos. This must have an economical purpose, otherwise it's just crazy.
>>30468542
(not him)
Mirage IV was initially a high-altitude strategic bomber that was succesfully repurposed into a low altitude deep-penetration bomber and a recon plane and semi-succesfully into a CAS plane (good performances, but every export contract was fucked by various external factors, a bit like the Rafale but worse).
Its role changed completely during its carrier. The fact that it was still a very decent plane after more than 45 years, well-liked despite the arrival of newer planes like the F1 or the 2000, is a credit to its engineering.
Super-Etendard: It can land on a carrier, had good avionics for the time and was cheaper than the Jaguar M.
>>30470264
Most recent Eurocopter products are overengineered to a fault, though.
>Dauphin has to keep its landing gear down for SAR operations, otherwise the proximity alarm lights up the cockpit (great during night flights)
>NH 90 has a complex door looking mecanism and alamr where the Puma had a simple mechanical lock
>>30471470
Most fighters can carry a sufficient bomb payload or the vast majority of operations, while operating from a carrier.
Few governments are ready to finance a specialized bomber when there is no absolute need of one.
>>30474097
People get bored in Chad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLXhPoxytsM
>>30474528
>remotely locked-down
Despite the fact that the french can be true bastards in diplomacy, I think they've suffered enough from the american boot locking their material in the colonial wars to inflict in on another country.
That, and they love selling guns.
The Cherbourg Porject is hirlarious in that regard.
>Military embargo towards Israel.
>But they've already paid, and we really need this money.
>Everybody turn the other way... Oh, the boats have disappeared! How peculiar. Let's not report it to the police.
>>30469577
Not quite, it's got a much smaller radar and only a one-way datalink. In the coming age that's a very significant drawback.
>>30473793
>but that in general Dassault turned out more stuff overall and sold it to more people.
Quite the opposite. Typhoon has sold literally twice as many planes to many more operators.
>>30474528
>The Rafale won the technical evaluation both in South Korea and Singapore
I've seen a lot of people claiming this and yet I've never seen a single official source about it.
>In the Netherlands it faced a then-virtual F-35 supposedly priced at 65 Millions $ per unit, and lost by a 2 points margin (695/700 while the F-35 powerpoint won with 697/700). Oops.
Same thing here.
>Should I mention Switzerland ?
Outdated comparison though. Rafale hasn't changed all that much since then, while both its competitors have come on leaps and bounds in the time.
>That's the F-35 you're thinking about anon.
No it isn't. The F-35 has repair facilities in Italy, the UK and even Norway for Europe.
>>30474692
>weapon buses are NATO compliant. How does GBU or the Meteor could be fitted on it otherwise ?
But they're right in that very little is actually integrated, which is a process that takes many years these days. Thats is indisputably a downside for many buyers who would either have to change their entire munition stockpile or pay fucktons to integrate their weapon onto the aircraft. Anyone who runs AIM-9 or AIM-120 is fucked for price when it comes to this aircraft for example and those are two pretty big "standards" for a lot of customers.
The complete lack of any integrated high precision low collateral weapon like SDB, APKWS or Brimstone is a pretty big kicker these days too.
It CAN mount them, but that doesn't mean you could just strap them on in a weekend. It would be a long long process.
>>30469643
>Almost nobody will buy Rafale
I kinda like the idea that Belgium might buy some to replace the F16s. Since the belgian air farce trains their novice fighter pilots with the french (on french bases), it'd make sense.
The other way to go would be F35, which is also logical since:
1) The dutch are buying them and the belgian air farce also cooperates with them.
2) The F35 are the only with a compatible nuclear giggle switch required for the american nukes stored at Kleine Brogel air base.
Personally, I'd send the damn nukes home and buy Rafales.
If have a feeling the F35 will be a money sink.
Eurofighters have a weird ownership formula which makes them less interesting.
And Saab's offering is a bit on the light side, especially since we tend to use our fighters for air policing and bomb trucking.
>>30470264
Euhm. That NH-90 has a lot of teething issues...
They sold them to us as a replacement for our decommissioned Seakings. Within a few weeks, they started rusting. Not a great start...
>>30474028
>https://youtu.be/7gvvr_NyewQ
I have a french airforce friend who was stationed in Chad & Djibouti.
Yes, the airforce does insane hit the deck fly bys all the damn time.
Yes, the legion helicopter pilots are nuts.
>>30476862
>The F35 are the only with a compatible nuclear giggle switch
I laughed far more than I should have.
Also damn the Rafale looks good with a nuke strapped to it.
F-35 I think makes most sense for Belgium, although I can't lie I'd love to see more Typhoon equipped EU nations to bulk out the commonality. (Not that F-35 won't have the same across many allies too there)
>>30468273
>I'm quite frustrated desu
>desu
Fuck you.
Come back when you grow up.
>>30476862
Really little point buying Rafales at this point, if the F-35 is available to you.
Don't know what France is planning to do either regarding 5th gen.
>>30476943
Smells like newfag.
Try typing the acronym of "to be honest".
senpai desu cuck
>>30476943
>Having your jimmies rustled this much by le epic maymay
Guess who actually needs to do the growing up
>>30469635
interesting didn't know the Rafale only had a 1 way data link. That really shuts down any talk of a sufficient 4.5 gen fighter.
Denel Cheetah
last one
>>30476957
they have said they plan to skip it, and begin a long term development of a sixth gen.
>>30477871
Sounds like a really shitty idea.
But considering they've gone a decade or more without any kind of capable BVR weapon, its not like they're pretending to be a real threat outside of COIN anyway
>>30477925
Because spending millions în the F 22 for bombing daesh or the taliban is not a shitty idea
>>30476303
>Eurocopter
>Anything touched by Airbus
Not even once
>>30477871
I don't recall hearing anything about them starting development on sixth gen at all.
It sounds just like a bullshit rumour starter to cover over the fact they have zero 5th gen presence to make it look less of an embarrassing weakness.
why do the Japanese do this in their games
>>30468273
If they cant figure out what polymer to buy for their signs to not sun-rot, then I highly doubt their quality in manufacturing jet airplanes.
>>30477970
>We've never launched Minutemen ICBMs, so they were a waste of money
Cretin.
>>30477970
The fact that the French can get away with not actually having a wartime capability in their aircraft because they can hide behind other people doing the work (US, NATO in general) doesn't make it a smart move.
I've always wondered why their military is so small
>>30478669
> because they can hide behind other people doing the work
Reality check: they are pretty much the only european country getting shit done currently.
>>30478669
They've been doing a ton of stuff in Africa and South America. So I would say they are sitting back
>>30478813
*Aren't
>>30476862
>the legion helicopter pilots
>legion
>helicopter pilots
>>30478794
>>30478813
>COIN against no enemy aircraft or air defence
When I say wartime, I mean actual wars. Not pissing about in the colonies.
>>30478872
Their troops are least getting experience. They have also done some stuff in the desert
>>30478669
>The fact that the French can get away with not actually having a wartime capability in their aircraft because they can hide behind other people doing the work (US, NATO in general) doesn't make it a smart move.
France is a nuclear nation with half its nukes mobile on the high seas at any given time. Any real threat to their mainland is dealt with M.A.D. and no credible first strike can be made on half their nuclear arsenal.
They most certainly can get away with not having a 5th gen fighter as long as they don't attempt to engage any modernly equiped nation in a conventional war.
>>30478859
>the legion helicopter pilots
>legion
>helicopter pilots
Meaning the ones flying the legion around, smartass. Yes, the FFL doesn't have it's own pilots, but yes, for their rotation the Puma pilots etc do get paired with legion units/bases.
>>30478872
Still fantasizing about the missed opportunity with Russia are we?
>>30478904
>France is a nuclear nation with half its nukes mobile on the high seas at any given time.
On what, the CdG?
Barely underway half the time, let alone all the time. M.A.D only goes so far; if it was really just that why bother with conventional forces at all? Just nukes and COIN-oriented assets, right?
No. Because that makes no sense.
>They most certainly can get away with not having a 5th gen fighter as long as they don't attempt to engage any modernly equiped nation in a conventional war.
Which is exactly what I said; hide behind NATO / the US against actual opponents.
>>30479046
Totally forgot that France had subs.
Point still stands, though. Nukes are a hammer, not every problem is a nail.
>>30479046
>On what, the CdG?
Subs.
The CdG would have a very large bullseye painted on it in case of a nuclear engagement.
>>30479061
>Totally forgot that France had subs.
>Point still stands, though. Nukes are a hammer, not every problem is a nail.
It is if you're isolationist, with the exception of supporting old colonies. They still out tech towel heads & gun toting niggers.
Typhoon is better at A2A.
Rafale is better at A2G until 2019, where the Typhoon will be better as it will carry a more versatile payload (Storm Shadow/Paveway/Brimstone etc).
Also the Typhoon will have a 2-way data link Meteor capability whereas the Rafale is limited to 1-way data link.
Typhoon will also have a superior radar in the coming years.
So all the Rafale has going for it in the future is a naval option which the Typhoon was meant to have until the MOD chose the F-35.
Also the Rafale was developed after extensive involvement in the Eurofighter project, which they pulled out of hence why the two look strikingly similar.
As both started out, the Rafale was the better and in some cases still is. But as time goes on, it is outclassed and outmatched by the Typhoon.
>>30478754
budget cuts and end of conscription.
Mainly budget cuts.
>>30478312
Tehcnucally they have nothing to do with Airbus Industries.
They're part of EADS like Airbus, and EADS renamed itself AIrbus Group because it sounded better. But Eurocopter (Airbus Helicopters) and Airbus S.A.S are two different entities.
>>30478872
>I mean actual actual wars
You'd be hard pressed to find a declaration of war including first world countries since the of ww2.
The last "actual" war between two countries with decent militaries was the Iran-Irak war of 1980.
>>30479138
>the Typhoon will be better as it will carry a more versatile payload (Storm Shadow/Paveway/Brimstone etc).
The Rafale carries those too?
>>30479209
They dont use Brimstone I know that much.
>>30479227
>>30479209
Or Paveway for that matter.
>>30479187
>You'd be hard pressed to find a declaration of war including first world countries since the of ww2.
>The last "actual" war between two countries with decent militaries was the Iran-Irak war of 1980.
I know, anon.
You know why that is? Because it isn't purely due to nukes.
>>30478620
The Japs do that on their real planes, not just games.
>>30479094
>It is if you're isolationist, with the exception of supporting old colonies. They still out tech towel heads & gun toting niggers.
>Isolationist
>Heavily rely on other nations to pick up your weaknesses in national defence
I have a soft spot for the Super Etendard
Pretty little plane, pretty outdated the moment it rolled off the production line, woefully underpowered, nobody wanted it, but it still performed well
And apparently all my Super Etendard pictures are on a different computer so this will have to do.
>>30479278
>Pretty little plane, pretty outdated the moment it rolled off the production line, woefully underpowered, nobody wanted it, but it still performed well
This, except I find it ugly as sin.
For all these reasons, I always hated this plane with a passion (as a french guy).
Back then, France was one of the few countries with 2 carriers, and they were fitted with one of the worst naval plane in existence (not counting sea Harriers).
Hornets were just so much better.
>>30479440
Can you rebuild your navy
>>30479440
Don't forget the best part of the story
>Anglo-French Jaguar M is supposed to give Aeronavale a carrier-capable strike fighter
>Dassault gets involved
>convinces France that they can build a cheaper upgrade of the Etendard that will do the job just as well
>end up with a massively less capable platform that's just as expensive as the Jaguar M
>>30479254
Tell me what western nation apart from the US (and even then it's somewhat debatable) to which that doesn't apply.
>>30479555
Why?
I didn't claim any of the others were "isolationist".
>>30479574
But France isn't isolationist. They just want to be able to have their own foreign policy.
![Rafale-attaqueFalloujah_AdlA_2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/lp2qGDF.jpg "Rafale-attaqueFalloujah_AdlA_2[1].jpg")
>>30479235
Nigga what? They use Paveways and even local equivalents like the AASM and the BLG (paveways, mainly; economies of scale).
>>30478794
You wot?
The US and UK were balls deep until just a couple years ago. That's enough shit being done for a long long time. Mali doesn't hold a candle to the scale of Iraq or Afghan.
ANd it's not like others aren't doing. The Intervention against ISIS has the UK pulling 2nd most behind USA by a significant margin, and they're gonna be in Estonia soon (Along with Germany, US and Canada in other countries in the Baltics) as a frontline battalion deployment. Loads of other EU countries are contributing to fighting ISIS too that aren't THAT much less than what France is doing there. Italy is in Libya with US, UK and French SF too.
France is hardly the only one doing stuff these days. Thats just a blunt faced lie.
>>30479508
I also have been told that there were discussions about stuffing Super Hornets inside the future nuclear carrier (which wasn't already named the CdG back then), as these planes seemed perfectly capable, for a reasonable budget.
But because of Dassault and muh French exception, the French Marine had to adopt the Rafale M instead, which turned out to be good, but much more expensive.
Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a pretty good plane, but I wonder how well the French army would fare if it didn't have to buy special snowflake military equipement, vehicles and weapons ALL THE FUCKING TIME.
>>30479209
They don't have Brimstone, or anything like Spear coming either. They also can only carry a single Harpoon, while Typhoon could carry 16 Spears or three ASMs elsewise once they're on it.
Basically, the point that he's getting at is that Typhoon will match or even slightly exceed the Rafale in A2G in the long term as plans stand right now, but given that it has such greater dominance in A2A as well, it really indicates how much more support the plane has going to push it above.
The next major munition for Rafale post Meteor isn't even expected until about 2030 when the new UK/FR ASM/Cruise Missile comes into service to replace Exocet, Harpoon and Storm Shadow.
>>30480032
>2030
Rafales would be borderline falling out of the sky by then, seems a little mad to bother with new weapons for it.
>>30480067
It's quite a while, yeah.
What we'll likely see around mid 2020's is Dassault run a "rebuilt" on the existing Rafales similar to what the US Army did for the Apache's up to E standard.
Remember, France is planning to operate this place for a long LONG time, as they have no 5th gen ambitions.
>>30468712
I always assumed /k/'s official jet was the MiG-21, considering the love for all things sturdy, slightly outdated, and Russian on the board
>>30480032
>carry a single Harpoon
True, but that's only because the navy doesn't want an assimetrical loadouts, so the plane can still land on the carrrier in case of misfire. Same with the Scalp that's only on the central pylon on the Rafale M, while the airforce version can carry two under the wings.
>Brimstone
2 TER pylons, so 6 brimstone, for the F3R standard in 2018.
Possibly a complete integration with 4x3 brimstone with the F4, depending how the F3R goes. But considering the price of Brimstones and the current threats, I wouldn't bet on it.
>no major upgrade after meteror.
The F4 standard is supposed to incluned new air-to-ground (and air-air) systems, with guided sneb rockets and the dual mode AASM IR/laser
>>30468749
It has more to do with the fact that Amerikan planes have a reputation as being the best planes in the sky. Most every US export plane in the past 50 years has been better performance at a similar, if not cheaper, price. It doesn't hurt, either, that the US has usually had the industry required to provide large numbers of planes quickly, highly skilled trainers for both flight and maintenance and can supply parts VERY quickly due to the US military's own logistics chain.
Also the prices are never dropped, the US government will often throw in the additional cash if they feel it's important enough politically/strategically, but the price paid to the company is always the same.
>>30480415
>2 TER pylons, so 6 brimstone, for the F3R standard in 2018.
Has never been ordered or even officially announced. Source?
>The F4 standard is supposed to incluned new air-to-ground (and air-air) systems, with guided sneb rockets and the dual mode AASM IR/laser
When I ask for "source" on this one it's not out of doubt, it's out of genuine curiosity. Can you hook me up with some info?
>>30469577
When it's expected the Rafale will have the Meteor integrated on it's weapons system?
>>30480663
Delivery in 2018.
>>30476567
Speaking largely historically
What was our Mirage 3? Our Mirage F-1? Super Mystère?
Also the Typhoon was notionally a co-operative effort, which is a little less useful for national pride than the French-French-French Rafale.
To some extent it's also driven by reading about the Arab-Israeli wars. The combat record of the French types starts to look more impressive due to their more zealous exports.
>>30468273
In and of themselves, Rafales are excellent. It's just that they'll never have the level of support or commonality that some of the alternatives do.
French aircrafts are great but their payloads are garbage. Rafale is great on paper in A2A but then one realizes it has no BVR missile.
>>30481510
Harrier.
The Typhoon is quite unique in multination ones though, in that the UK possesses the means and rights to develop basically everything in it independantly as the leading nation in its research and technology. It's basically the fallback in case other countries pulled out. Almost all the primary elements (engines, radar, pilot interface, internal systems, cockpit and much of the central fuselage. The parts not made by them are all things the UK has made for other planes anyway recently and are mostly lower tech. The UK is the only member of the consortium that could, in theory, just say "screw you" and start making the whole thing itself pretty much immediately (as far as industrial projects define "immediately" anyway), albeit at greater expense.
It's whats allowed the UK to pull way WAY ahead in terms of advancing the airframe capabilities. Even their Tranche 1's are dropping bombs as multiroles, something unheard of for the plane outside the UK. Italy is the only other "manufacturing" country who even has proper A2G implemented on it, but the UK is already dropping into specialist munitions now. (Although Italy to their credit is taking a lead on ASMs and Recce Pods to match Kuwait's requirements.)
Pic unrelated, just more pretty Rafale because that is the thing for this thread.
>>30482194
>Typhoon is basically British
Is that why the Typhoon has so many problems, costs so much money, and the UK is buying F-35Bs instead of developing a naval variant?
>>30482582
I'm sorry that you got triggered by a perfectly reasonable post, Pierre.
>Why aren't they producing a navalized CATOBAR Typhoon for a STOVL/STORVL carrier??????
gee
>>30479440
>Hornets were just so much better.
And foreign.
One of the most respectable things of France is the frequency of domestic purchases. It's one of the few countries to not say "fuck it" and just buy US hardware.
Europe should be more independent.
>>30482747
>One of the most respectable things of France is the frequency of domestic purchases. It's one of the few countries to not say "fuck it" and just buy US hardware.
Unless you consider Europe as one nation, countries that aren't France, Britain, or the UK don't have the luxury of making their own stuff.
>>30482747
>Europe should be more independent
UL were the only ones who constantly bought American shit. Can't help but be America's bitchboy I suppose.
New Eurotank will be French/German. With Brexit, Dassault will be the lead partner for all new Aerospace designs in Euroconsortiums. Something they should have always been seeing as how the Rafale turned out compared to the Typhoon.
>>30482815
>Something they should have always been seeing as how the Rafale turned out compared to the Typhoon.
Inferior and more expensive?
Yeah, great.
>>30482808
>countries that aren't France, Britain, or the UK don't have the luxury of making their own stuff.
Technically they enter multinational consortia, which isn't ideal but is still preferable to outright foreign purchases.
Italy had the AMX and C-27J for example.
At the very least, Euro should buy domestic first, then Euro-co-operation, then European, then foreign.
>>30482838
>Inferior and more expensive?
Typhoon is useless. Completely worthless in any military action since induction.
Rafale will be inducted in huge numbers in a few years.
>>30482875
>At the very least, Euro should buy domestic first, then Euro-co-operation, then European, then foreign.
Everyone but UKfags do this. Proves they are not Europeans but American slaves.
>>30482975
>Typhoon is useless. Completely worthless in any military action since induction.
>Rafale will be inducted in huge numbers in a few years.
Please, do share who is buying 200+ Rafales.
Would make it almost equal in export numbers to the Typhoon.
>>30482975
Looks like someone triggered the Frog.
>>30483023
>Please, do share who is buying 200+ Rafales.
India will buy 36 from Merignac + 90 for local assembly in their first order. Several orders may follow including Rafale-M. Their numbers could easily go to +200 like it did with their Su-30MKI after inducting 2 dozen of them a decade and a half ago.
AESAN countries will buy Rafale as well to counter Chinese aggression.
ME countries will buy as F-35 is not offered to them.
>>30483044
Only one getting triggered are British, soon to be just 'English' after Scotland and NI leave the UK to join EU.
>>30483115
Kek, that Indian order thats been back-and-forth for over a year with no conclusion, and some wishful thinking.
As expected!
>>30483115
>+ 90 for local assembly in their first order.
The larger order was dropped. It's only 36 now. Anything more is pure conjecture and hasn't even come close to being requested.
>Their numbers could easily go to +200 like it did with their Su-30MKI after inducting 2 dozen of them a decade and a half
Not it won't, there hasn't been a single indication that will be the case.
>AESAN countries will buy Rafale as well to counter Chinese aggression.
You are literally saying nothing other than "THEY WILL THEY WILL SERIOUSLY GUYS" at this point.
>ME countries will buy as F-35 is not offered to them.
ME is buying a big mix already. Saudi, Oman and Kuwait went for Typhoon. Kuwait also went for Super Hornets. Bahrain is almost a certain Typhoon customer. Qatar and Egypt went for Rafale, and UAE almost certainly will get Rafale, but thats about it on the main scale.
Basically, you're just spouting a load of wishes and trying to pass it off as actual facts, which they aren't, on top of a load of "N-no you're the one who's angry!" while making big chest thumping statements about entirely irrelevant things.
>soon to be just 'English'
It'd still be British, Wales and England. Even Scottish folk would still be British in a geographical sense, it's the British Isles after all.
>>30483194
>http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/govt-plans-to-make-second-line-of-fighter-aircrafts-under-make-in-india-project-says-iaf-chief_1862430.html
The competition is between Rafale and F-18/16s from America. The last time they opened a fighter line they made +250 Su-30MKI jets. Same will happen for their next line.
Rafale will win if 36 are inducted.
>>30483194
>Even Scottish folk would still be British in a geographical sense
And if the SNP get their way, that's 12 more Typhoons to boot, even if old Tornadoes are more likely.
>>30483286
>Source doesn't say anything about Rafale being that next line
>"Made In India" also includes their own aircraft by definition, so it could be anything
>Website is so low tier it can't even spell Rafale correctly
>No official source stating it will be Rafale
>No credible defense site source
>Rafale contract for 36 STILL isn't signed to begin with
>will
>will
>will
>will
Wow, it's fucking nothing, perpetuated with you "wishing" for things and trying to claim thats reality again.
>>30483325
SNP won't get Typhoons, they wouldn't be able to afford them. There's not a single defense expert around who agreed that their White Paper was anything like feasible.
At most they could get a few armed Hawks for their tiny budget they alloted, but more likely just no fast jets at all, unless you've figured out a way for high end 4.5th gen fighters to somehow fit into a budget similar to New Zealand's.
>>30483402
By end of 2017 you will see. Rafale assembly line will open in India for initial 90 orders.
>>30483402
>unless you've figured out a way for high end 4.5th gen fighters to somehow fit into a budget similar to New Zealand's.
If my memory is right, don't they pull ahead of Austria at something like £2.5bn? (And I'm assuming they only expected to pay upkeep costs on the Typhoons, with them being handed over for free as part of splitting assets.)
Though Austria doesn't also have to fit a navy into their budget, so there's always that.
>>30483487
Austria also doesn't have the same personnel payment levels, Austria still has national service after all to make up a lot of gaps that Scotland would have to pay people more full time to do. Hence why I chose New Zealand as an example.
>>30483443
>will
Come back when you have some actual proof of it going to happen.
What was wrong with the mirage 4000
I'm pretty sure they're better software engineers than aeronautical engineers. Given how often solid works crashes, that's not saying a lot.
>>30468273
I say we put a ban on military style dassault planes. I walked into a plane store and came out with one of these in 10 mins.
>>30483582
>Austria still has national service after all to make up a lot of gaps that Scotland would have to pay people more full time to do
I dunno, could they not just start all new employees on a lower pay-grade than they'd have been on in the UK, without actually having to give anyone a pay cut?
I seem to remember a line in the white paper along the lines of "Things will continue along current arrangements until Scottish Defence Force staff can be trained to carry this out independently..."
>>30483802
Too expensive for the french army.
Not in service in the french army for export.
>>30485496
Is it supposed to be better
>>30468712
No
>>30478620
:/
>>30485759
it's a beautiful plane, but why the fuck won't they make that fugly as hell refueling nozzle retractable?
>>30485976
>it's a beautiful plane, but why the fuck won't they make that fugly as hell refueling nozzle retractable?
Less complicated, less things that can break, stronger design, cheaper. Most Dassault planes had fixed refueling nozzles like that.
Main downside is slightly larger radar signature, but the Rafale aint no stealth plane.
Function over form, really.
>>30485976
It's virtually maintenance free, has higher fuel rate, is more reliable and weights less. The designers obviously weighted those aspects more desirable than the rather insignificant cons that going for a fixed probe had (minute increase in aerodynamic drag , tiny increase in RCS, and that edgy /k/-teens don't like the way it looks)
>>30485941
>AIM-9's and AIM-120's
LE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>30485720
The Mirage 2000 is a mono-engine version of the 4000, since the army realised they didn't have enough cash for the 4000 in 1975. The manufacturers, thinking that their export catalog lacked a powerful twin-engine fighter, still decided to assemble a prototype on their own money.
There isn't a lot of differences besides that. It's a more powerful and more expensive 2000.
>>30480499
>Also the prices are never dropped, the US government will often throw in the additional cash if they feel it's important enough politically/strategically, but the price paid to the company is always the same.
Not to mention there is a law which makes it illegal to sell an aircraft to a foreign country for less than the american military paid for it.
>>30468763
>Eurofighters are superior in A2A
They both utilize the exact same radar and the Rafale is slightly better in WVR combat.
>Eurofighters right now are growing more than Rafales, though.
That's only true if you count the typhoons that the UK sold to SA for a significant loss in order to keep their manufacturing plants open.
is the MICA IR even better then the AIM-9X Blk 2?
>>30486349
>They both utilize the exact same radar
Like fuck they do.
Rafale's AESA is a fixed panel with around 120 degrees total view and only 849 or so t/r modules. (Some rumours say 1,000, but no confirmation to update it since)
Typhoon's AESA is a traversable panel with over 200 degrees total view and 1,500 t/r modules. It's a significantly larger and more powerful radar with a much greater field of regard to be able to track things when it's not pointed direction in the flight direction.
They aren't even remotely similar.
>and the Rafale is slightly better in WVR combat.
All the Rafale has up close is a better low speed turn, but there's a big difference between "gun dogfight" and "full WVR spectrum". The Typhoon has a fucking massive advantage in that it has a full HOBS helmet setup, something the Rafale currently lacks, and a longer ranged ISRT. Its SRAAMs have a much faster "off the rail" speed too (MBDA themselves claim this, despite manufacturing both AIM-132 and MICA, so thats as confirmed as it gets).
>That's only true if you count the typhoons that the UK sold to SA for a significant loss in order to keep their manufacturing plants open.
Except nothing you said there is true.
What is it about Rafale-fags that they have to resort so often to just making shit up? The plane is great in its own ways. It's got a great payload and range, it's got a neat carrier version, France got it working in record time. MICA is a good SRAAM, AASM is a great PGM and it's proven its reliability numerous times as an airframe with a long lasting flight hours rating.
You don't need to go so butthurt defensive about it about every single aspect of the plane if another plane happens to be better than it at something or can gradually pull a bit ahead of it. It doesn't mean the Rafale isn't also good. This isn't "best or shit".
>>30486349
>They both utilize the exact same radar and the Rafale is slightly better in WVR combat.
Firstly, no? What the fuck are you smoking?
Secondly, not really. Which is a shame because its literally the only envelope in which the Rafale can fight.
>>30486385
MICA is longer ranged and faster, while also being arguably more manuoverable. AIM-9X has a much greater HOBS capability and better ECM.
However MICA's "advantages" are kind of moot, because US planes also have AIM-120 to fill the "range and speed" niche, while Rafale has no other option. AIM-120 is a better range missile, AIM-9X is a better WVR missile, MICA tries to sort of go in between the two and shares aspects of both because it's the only thing the plane has. Jack of all trades etc
>>30486538
>Rafale's AESA is a fixed panel with around 120 degrees total view and only 849 or so t/r modules. (Some rumours say 1,000, but no confirmation to update it since)
Someone counted that 800 something number from a mock-up on display, how many modules are on the real thing is classified (as that would allow quite accurate estimation of capabilities of the thing) and the only official obfuscated word given about the module count is "around 1000".
It is however true that EF has much more room in its nose cone for a larger radar, but they are lacking behind and hard as there are still no CAPTOR-E's in operational use and at current schedule won't be until 2019. By the time it takes them to start catching up to AESA tech, the first Rafale's are likely to be already switching over to GaN's. The French were the first in the world to do that switch in EW antennas on operational planes (quite a few French Air Force planes have been spotted with GaN based jammers, rest of the fleet is getting them with the F3R)
>HOBS helmet setup, something the Rafale currently lacks
Rafale doesn't lack it, that system has already been developed (using TopSight helmet I think) and Indians for example are getting theirs with one albeit with some Israeli helmet instead. It's just that the French Air Force and Navy themselves haven't bothered to upgrade their planes, probably figured out it's not worth the cost as Rafale's can already shoot their MICA's towards any target around the plane in a 360 bubble using the sensor fused data alone without needing a helmet mounted targeting device to do that
bump
>>30487410
>Rafale doesn't lack it, that system has already been developed (using TopSight helmet I think) and Indians for example are getting theirs with one albeit with some Israeli helmet instead.
So...it doesn't have it then.
And the Indian contract isn't even signed yet.
>probably figured out it's not worth the cost as Rafale's can already shoot their MICA's towards any target around the plane in a 360 bubble using the sensor fused data alone without needing a helmet mounted targeting device to do that
That'd be why all the other airforces, including the US, who already have missiles that can do that are all buying into HOBS enabled helmets.
Almost like there's way more to why it makes a difference than is being said here or something. Because it makes for vastly faster engagement times, wider envelopes and reduced pilot workload. Firing missiles isn't just like in a video game where you just press B on a controller, there's a lot of things involved. HOBS helmets take a fuckton of the effort out of it, and is a distinct and major advantage in WVR. Thats why the US is chasing it so hard.
>>30483802
it flew too close to the sun
>>30486538
>Typhoon's AESA is
...not operational. And that's all you needed to say about the captor E.
Plus the first user of the Captor E will be Kuwait.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/typhoon-captor-e-awaits-flight-testing-as-kuwait-con-423938/
See you then.
Rafale's RBE2 AESA is purchased and has been issued. Not a lot of them that's for sure, and only 60 ordered, but it's there, in the french air force, flying, and fighting wars.
>>30486313
It was easily on par with the F-15 on dynamic capabilities, and had lots of room for improvement. It's a shame it wasn't produced.
>>30483286
>The competition is between Rafale and F-18/16s from America.
The competition is between poo in loo's who want to milk every cent from Dassault to appear as good negociators. Protip : they're not.
Also, Dassault will sell much more than 36 Rafale to India. Mark my words.
Egypt already wants more than 24.
>>30495686
>Rafales
>Fighting wars
Oh I am laffin
>>30496950
I'm sure you do.
Afghanistan
Lybia
Mali
Syria
Iraq
According to our friend here, these are/were no war zones.
Go be a giggling retard somewhere else.
captcha : french fries.
>>30468273
>all our media portrays Marcel Dassault as a genius and Dassault planes either as very good platform or straight-up revolutionary concepts
Lol no. Our leftist media (99% of them) have made it a national sport to spit on everything that is French made, especially when it comes to military stuff. Before the Rafale was sold to Egypt, there has been hundreds of articles claiming the Rafale is shit and that's why it doesn't sell, plenty of articles insulting Marcel Dassault as well, especially his status as a national assembly member, they suspect him of corruption and bribing and are angry that he can't be tried because of his status.
Pull your head out of your ass.
>>30497630
Sure I do what?
>Mali
>A fucking war
Yeah, COIN. Great.
>>30477790
Are they ready to shoot it down, just in case it goes Terminator-mode?
>>30497658
>coin is apparently not a conflict
Is it day/k/are yet?
>>30497732
Its not a war, not does it validate the utility of a fighter jet, when a Super Tuc would have done pretty much the same shit.
>>30468680
Eurofighter is also the best 4.5th gen fighter with the largest market for spare parts in 20 years time.
France fucked up with the Rafale purely because they tried to make an ultra elite aircraft when their primary exports for years were exactly like the Gripen. Decent airframe better than their neighbours that fired European/American missiles that didn't cost the world to buy with dumb clauses.
Now? Rafale is amazing but the problem is France wants your soul and first born for it as well as a ludicrous pricetag when the NG Gripen is there for nearly half the price, alot more lenient on shit and not AMAZINGLY sub par performance for a 4.5th gen.
That and any nation who can buy a Rafale would probably benefit more from just buying a bunch of Super Hornets. There's literally no market for Rafales that isn't heavily contested by other airframes.
>>30468763
Only reason Eurofighters are worse bomb trucks is because Germany is a massive cunt and wouldn't give the go ahead for the CAS and ground strike module, hence why Eurofighters were literally interceptors for the past 12 years of operations and little more.
Italy and Britain are in the final stages of development for theirs tho but with the F-35s being on the market, I'd probably not bother with the bomb truck shit on a EF and just work on it being METEOR ready.
I don't know. I know one former Rafale pilot who is know in charge of promoting it to foreign potential buyers.
But he might be biased, kek.
>>30497857
Fuck, forgot to say. He swore it was the best fighter jet in the world.
Why do the Rafale and the Typhoon look exactly the fucking same? I thought the delta wing type was shit.
>>30478312
Passenger jets are fine and same applies to civilian helicopters and old military helicopters.
NH90 is something completely different. Piece of shit that has worse readiness rates as brand new than beaten to death 40 year old transport helicopters. If any user will deploy any of theirs, rest of users will have to reduce training due to lack of spares.
>>30497777
Checked.
>it's not a war
Day/k/are it is.
>>30497658
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7X2ETw6Wiw
This is not war.
You're retarded.
>>30498017
That's footage from CAR, not Mali though.
>>30498058
Up to 2'30 because the uploader is a retard.
The rest is about Mali.
There are no rocky deserts in Central Africa, just to let you know.
One of the reason the Rafale is so expensive is that everything is produced in France. Even the MB ejection seats are produced under license.
Buying the Rafale is paying the price of political neutrality, France has been selling weapons to Russia, Israel, and pretty much everyone else at some point, and that's why countries like Egypt, Qatar and India buy it.
>>30498334
>So expensive
€69m ($77m) is pretty inexpensive for a modern fighter, only planes like SH and Gripen are cheaper but it'll be less plane for the money with those two however
>>30498532
>€69m
That's the unit cost for the French Air Force, not the flyaway cost for an export deal.
>>30498564
That however is the best number we can use to compare it to other similar costs, like F-35 right now costs bit over $100m for US. Looking at package deals for Rafales which have included fucking Frigates, billions worth of missiles, long supply contracts, etc and then dividing that per Rafales in that deal leads to those 0.25 billion per plane numbers which are highly misleading.
>>30468273
Dassault mane
>>30497799
Wat
The RAF's Eurofighters have been slinging bombs for ages. Its the standard to measure from, considering the Luftwaffe don't even bother maintaining aircraft anymore.
>>30484215
Here's your (you)
>>30495686
>...not operational. And that's all you needed to say about the captor E.
Except the topic of the discussion was "Their radars are the same"
Which they aren't.
I even used both their AESA's to make the comparison closer and show that they PATENTLY aren't the same even when they're the same type.
Stop moving the goalposts.
>>30498607
The best number would be to use its actual export customers who cited the costs. Brazil made it VERY clear how expensive that shit was.
>>30499449
Wouldn't be a good idea for Dassault to outsource some parts of Rafale with the poo in the loo, so it can be more competitive in the international market?
>>30501789
They did try to. The problem is that India are such shit tier engineers, and they wanted Dassault to be responsible for any faults.
You can see why Dassault wasn't even vaguely willing.
Expensive, but good
