With Hecatia on the roster outranking Shikieiki now, who is the strongest 2hu?
Is there anyone else who can one-up Hecatia?
>>14772020
She's #1. It's not even debatable.
Shinto goddesses with a lot of of faith. Too bad all the ones in Gensokyo have a faith problem.
[insert counter-argument on how Yukari is stronger here]
Oh look, another power level thread
it is raymoo it is always raymoo
>>14772251
Reimu is weak shit.
Reimu is the main protagonist, so she's the strongest by default.
>>14772039
Well, that's not fair. I wanted to see Suwako's butt.
>>14772020
How does she outrank shiki?
A yama judges all lifeforms.
>>14772077
Wow I was about to agree and your lucky 7's help me
Hecatia is the extra stage
Yukari is Phantasm
How is Hecatia strong? She may be a goddess but so is Shizuha Aki.
Shinki is a creator goddess so she should be far above Hecatia.
>>14772656
She's the queen of Hell. Three Hells actually.
>>14772876
And Shinki is literally the creator-goddess who made an entire realm from nothing. Since when does ruling Hell mean anything?
>>14772891
>who made an entire realm from nothing.
[citation needed]
>>14772893
Touhou 5: Mystic Square, Reimu scenario stage 6.
Shinki
>Out of the ones I've created, Yumeko was of the highest class...
>Since you've defeated her, what's for certain is that you're not just a nobody.
Reimu
>You just said "created".
>Do you think you're a god or something?
Shinki
>Pardon the late introduction.
>That's right, I am a god.
>I created this Makai.
>>14772891
She's the strongest. ZUN agreed.
>>14772965
When and where
>>14772609
Hecatia outranks Shiki in the way a city mayor is outranked by the president of an entire country. Shiki is just the yama for Gensokyo, a small part of Earth. Hecatia presides over Hell for Earth as a whole, as well as for the Moon and Otherworld. Even ignoring the bits about Shiki's origins or the fact she was appointed the her post, there is no way anyone with such a vastly broader jurisdiction would rank below her.
>>14772891
How does being a creator-goddess mean anything if you burn your entire creation down fighting mere mortals and still manage to lose? Shinki might be powerful, but she's not omnipotent, and certainly has no real control over anything she didn't personally create. If she could, there would be no way any of the heroines could have beaten her, especially since they weren't playing by the Spell Card rules at that point.
>>14773112
is this the new yukari meme?
>>14773112
Everything is eventually judged by a Yama, all things that can die are trapped in the cycle. Only immortals are going to avoid being judged. Her appointment may just be due to the other yama, like how cardinals elect a pope.
>>14773019
>>14773438
Meant to add, he didn't say she was the strongest, but he said she was greater than Shiki and downplayed Shiki's importance.
>>14773160
No it's straight from the horses mouth.
PMiSS explains the whole structure/system of Hell and the various positions in it and how yama come into being. So we have a solid background as to how everything works and it even establishes Eiki is the highest authority for Gensokyo.
OSP re-confirmed this fact that Eiki came into power from being a particularly helpful and merciful Jizou statue who gained huge power.
In PoFV and SDV we get enough bits to establish Eiki is Yuyuko's direct boss to the point she can authorize the expansion/contraction/rennovation of the Netherworld and whilst Yukari doesn't feel threatened by Eiki due to her being straight as a rod. Yukari also makes it clear she cannot match Eiki at all and would instantly lose to her by default.
We also know from SA that Satori is another of Eiki's subordinates as it specifically mentions the Yama instilled her as the leader of the Underworld when Hell was relocated.
Then finally in the latest interview about LoLK in SCoOW ZUN says this when talking about Hecatia.
>As for that, I had wanted to bring a character from Hell into the story. A Hell different from the one underground. Though she's different from oni, she's just a normal goddess of Hell. In terms of status she's absolutely higher than Eiki. Eiki's a judge, but she's a part of a society of oni. However, Hell isn't limited to just oni. There are plenty of things we haven't seen yet in regards to Hell. And it would be easy to make new worlds if they wanted to. An infinite number of worlds can be made. All those mysterious aspects can be considered Hecatia's "Otherworlds".
>>14773499
>Yukari also makes it clear she cannot match Eiki at all and would instantly lose to her by default.
The only text I've ever seen to support this is the one that says "It would be useless to fight against her". I've also heard that that a better translation would be "It's useless to argue with her", which makes significantly more sense given what their personalities are. Can you provide more information?
>>14772965
>>14773438
Didn't ZUN say that Yuuka was the strongest, if not one of the strongest characters in 98 canon?
>>14773537
Sorry that bit was my mistake remembering the scene wrong, I re-read the bit and it was talking about Yuyuko not Yukari which is actually true for reasons established already.
>>14773167
If loosing faith makes gods turn back to whatever they were before (kanako -> divine spirit, suwako -> nothing) what happens when they die?
>>14773777
everyone dies
Giorno.
>>14773827
the question was more like what happens after, I think youkais just disappear for example, while humans have all that afterlife stuff, and what do happen to gods?
>>14773777
>>14773827
>>14773898
According to Perfect Memento:
>Among the dead, those who are revered as gods are called divine spirits[1]. There are those who lived as gods, and also those who, after death, ascended to godhood.
>Having no connection to the 8 million gods, these will not die even after a memorial service, but will simply extinguish.
In the case of gods like Kanako and Suwako, they wouldn't die from loss of faith so much as just cease to exist, with the only difference between them being how quickly it happens. Being made of pure faith, Suwako would most likely go out first, while Kanako could at least linger as a divine spirit for a little while before snuffing it.
Did i hear someone talk about the strongest?
Isn't she just a T-shirt wearing weirdo?
>>14774247
N-no.
>>14773827
so shiki can die?
>>14774247
sanae pls go
FILTHY IMPURE EARTHLINGS IF ONLY YOU CAN GRASP THE POWER OF OUR SUPERIOR MOON TECH
>>14775033
Lunarians confirmed for genocidal assholes.
Junko did nothing wrong.
>>14775046
When you're the master race who could give a fuck about what ants think,so let them genocide everyone who's going to stop them a Clown?
>>14775046
of course she didn't
>>14775033
The concept alone makes me want to stain them with impurity.
>>14775056
FUCK YEAH
>>14775033
>>14775056
>Got BTFO so hard by a fucking fairy and a widow that you need to move to the place you hate the most
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS SHIT UP
>>14773459
>Since she's an enemy that doesn't play by the rules, you can't even call it a proper match. It's just playing around. She's completely past the level of anyone in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital.
I'm not sure if he's talking about powerlevels or divine ranking here though
You're all wrong. 34 is the strongest!
>>14773112
>>14773167
I guess it's something like the Indian caste system then. The kshatriya are the ruling castes (which is probably similar to Hecatia's case). But then there is still one unreachable caste above the ruling party, which is the brahmin which is Shikieiki.
Hecatia may outrank Shiki but that doesn't say anything about their powers. Shiki may still be stronger than Hecatia given that a Yama is also some sort of a bodhisattva (a dharmapala to be percise)
>>14775033
>SUPERIOR MOON TECH
This coming from the race that got beat the fuck out by America (the greatest country on Earth) and then got beat the fuck out again by a bunch of fairies dressed in the Star Spangled Banner, a really fucking angry Chinese(?) goddess milf widow, and a girl who goes to Hot Topic weekly and is into domming planets.
>>14775969
I wonder if Hecatia helped invade the moon because the moon's hell doesn't get enough business
>>14773952
Depressing.
I want to try and save that Frog from her shitty fate.
>>14775033
This attitude is why there need to be more doujins of them being dominated by human males.
>>14775033
Careful, there might be hell fairies near by
>>14776020
It's okay, I will never lose faith in Suwako!
But the main question is, who can beat Hecatia?
EX-Alice > Yuuka > Yukari > the rest
>>14773952
That is pretty sad. Good thing I have a suako plushie to send her faith every day.
No wonder why she's trying so hard to get faith with all her schemes.
>>14772020
>outranking Shikieiki
Eiki's rank has never said anything about power in the sense of powerlevels, only providence. Which is, really, more important in Touhou than powerlevels, but it still doesn't correlate.
>>14773167
>Her appointment may just be due to the other yama
Confirmed for not knowing how Touhou Hell works, I guess.
>>14773459
>>14775437
ZUN already talks as if powerlevels don't exist, because generally they don't or are unimportant.
>>14773695
What ZUN said back in PC98 means absolutely nothing.
>>14773701
It helps that the translation was revised a bit to help clarify.
>>14775740
Dude please you're reaching so far you could touch the Lunarians. You're building layers of specula just to shove someone on top. Varna are castes of people, for one, and really the only characteristics of dharmapala that made it into to Touhou's version of Yama (well Eiki in particular) is the strict-for-your-own-good thing. Things get really messy when you start mixing various strings of Buddhism with the Japanese/Chinese Ten Kings of Hell like ZUN has, and taking everything at face value in their original contexts.
>>14776611
>providence
That wasn't the word I wanted. "Presiding over in judgment" was what I wanted to get across.
>>14776611
>Things get really messy
Well it got messy the moment ZUN roped a Greek goddess into Chinese mythology
If Hecatia is a greek goddess, why we don't go above that and say that Zeus is the one above her? We can even make him out to be a cute girl called Zeusia or some shit.
>>14773112
>there is no way anyone with such a vastly broader jurisdiction would rank below her.
Hecatia presides over a big hell. Shikieiki presides over the very concept of death. Hecatia does not outrank Shikieiki, in the same way the warden of the local prison does not outrank the judges that decide who go in this prison.
That you have difficulties to grasp such a simple concept is beyond me.
Didn't Zun say that bitch was the strongest because the more number of gods she summon the stronger she gets,remember she can summon up to 8 million gods
>>14775969
>got beat the fuck out by America
When will this retarded shit stop? You see fucking ruins of US base in SSiB.
>>14776722
Shikieiki presides over Gensokyo-only though. There are a lot of yamas for the world, and Hecatia presides over all hells. I'm not sure a city judge would outrank the President.
>>14776725
Still lost to fairies
>>14776005
Her profile says why. When Chang'e's husband shot the suns from the sky Hell was weakened since it cannot exist without the sun (something about the darkness of Hell being unable to exist without the light of the sun). So she dislikes Chang'e too (but her profile says that "her hatred of Chang'e is mostly due to Junko's influence anyway").
>>14773952
>In the case of gods like Kanako and Suwako, they wouldn't die from loss of faith so much as just cease to exist, with the only difference between them being how quickly it happens.
Actually this brings up another really important point LoLK brought up I haven't seen many discuss. Sanae's bad ending brought up something interesting regarding the Native gods vs Heavenly gods.
>Suwako: "While you're experiencing the future, an effect that purifies the past can also be observed. If you were to use it on the ancient, native gods..."
>Kanako: "It'd be an instant kill."
>Suwako: "Yes, this potion has a strong influence on the living Earth creatures."
>Sanae: "Eh? So if I used it, I'd be dangerous?"
>Suwako: "Well... it wouldn't have been deadly, probably, but all your impurities might be washed away, leaving you as a clean human."
In short the medicine Eirin gave the Moriya would've stripped Sanae of her Divine powers and possibly kill Suwako/Kanako if they took it. Then in the good ending we get this.
>Kanako: "...So this is your report on the incident?"
>Sanae: "Yes, it's the legend of my heroism."
>Kanako: "Hmm. The content is impressive, but how much of it is true?"
>Sanae: "You won't believe it: About eighty percent."
So if this is all taken together is it safe to believe Sanae lied about facing Junko? Because if she didn't than the post LoLK Sanae should now be pure human without any of Suwako's lineage anymore.
>>14776826
I thought Hecatia hated Houyi for shooting down her sons?
>>14777060
That's Junko
>>14777060
That is Junko and she had one son. One of the suns that Houyi shot down fell on him and killed him. Hecatia doesn't have any children, and neither does the actual Hecate in Greek myth either from a quick search.
>>14777078
>>14777143
No, I thought the suns were supposed to be Hecatia's children?
>Hecatia doesn't have any children, and neither does the actual Hecate
Ok that somehow answers something
>>14777164
>No, I thought the suns were supposed to be Hecatia's children?
Not as far as we can tell. The suns were the children of a Chinese god. They rose and set in turn until they got cocky and rose up all at once, burning everything before Houyi shot them down and one landed on Junko's son, Bofeng. Junko got mad as fuck and waged a one-woman war against Chang'e (I dunno what happened to Houyi), but then Chang'e got imprisoned on the moon. Then Hecatia came and planned with Junko to use the Hell fairies to make the Lunarians move so Junko could kill Chang'e in transport.
It would have went perfectly if the heroines didn't come in and shoot everyone.
>>14777264
>(I dunno what happened to Houyi)
The common version of the myth has Houyi being beaten to death in the middle of nowhere at the hands of his own student.
>>14777049
Not him, but quick reminder that the canon routes for LoLK are "1 life run in Legacy" (so, the Pointdevice/good endings, just without having to take the medicine to get there).
Source: ZUN's interview about LoLK in Strange Creators of Outer World
>>14777304
Given that Houyi shot down nine fucking SUNS at the same time that was one powerful student.
>>14777049
>So if this is all taken together is it safe to believe Sanae lied about facing Junko?
I'm not sure she lied that specifically, since Junko's name doesn't even appear to come up in either of her endings, but her role in the final resolution is almost certainly exaggerated.
I think the "eighty percent" part is actually interesting, since what is 80% as a fraction? It's 4/5. Sanae's report in the good ending makes it clear that she definitely made it to Sagume, at the very least, and in what stage does she meet her? Stage 4. At what point would Sanae's exaggerations have taken over? Stage 5.
Hecatia is of the highest political rank, this does not in any way describe her personal power.
>>14773112
>How does being a creator-goddess mean anything if you burn your entire creation down fighting mere mortals and still manage to lose?
Didn't Shinki refuse to go full power because that would have harmed Makai? She did the exact opposite of what you describe.
>especially since they weren't playing by the Spell Card rules at that point.
Trying to apply lore like that to PC98 era is total bullshit.
>>14772876
>the moon have hell of all the places
>the residence of lunarians
WHICH?
WHY?
HOW?
SINCE WHEN?
this always bugged me
>>14777407
>Trying to apply lore like that to PC98 era is total bullshit.
But the PC98 era in general is bullshit, so yeah!
>>14777201
nice pasta
>>14776343
>team shangai alice
damn ZUN
>>14777321
By the time the student killed him, Houyi was already an old, jaded man who was way past his glory days.
Of course, the student had everything laid out nicely for him.
>>14777380
Nah, this is Touhou.
I'm sure with power comes great political ranking.
>>14777407
Trying to include PC98 into a power comparison to begin with is dumb considering they aren't even cannon
